Thaksin's Lawyer Robert Amsterdam Brings Crackdown On Reds To International Criminal Court

[animatic]

The absurdities written in this alleged report ,and even more so in the Toronto screed, reach an astounding new level of water muddying.

Lovely but ofd disembling here:

Thai military personnel, including snipers, rehearsed at the mock-up as early as February 2007, the report alleges.

And now he's hired some Sgt. as an expert.

Amsterdam said the ICC application contains detailed testimony, including an expert report by Joe Ray Witty, a former US Army sergeant and crowd control expert with the Los Angeles Police Department special weapons and tactics group.

Like it is hard to find a 'ex military type' to say what you like for a profit.

LA has had it's riots, but no chance the barricades with spikes and 2 month invasion would EVER have been allowed in LA.

Edited January 31, 2011 by animatic

[jdinasia]

Philw makes one blatantly incorrect statement --- he asserts that Robert Amsterdam has any credibility BEFORE today After he stated that he had never heard it even suggested that Thaksin was funding the reds ..... well ....

[geriatrickid]

Mr. Amsterdam is carrying out his duties as legal counsel. Attacking Mr. Amsterdam doesn't address the claims being made. It is up to the ICC to accept or to deny the case based upon its legal merits. Don't make it personal. Lawyers can represent unpopular people, but that doesn't make the lawyer evil.

Interesting that the story receives space in the Toronto Star, one of Canada's largest circulation newspapers. I rarely see mention of Thailand in the story lines of the Canadian newsfeeds that iIreceive. The exception are the alleged crimes against Canadian nationals in Thailand with the Pai case receiving infrequent mention. Perhaps the willingness of a Canadian paper to run with the story reflects the poor international image Thailand has, as well as Mr. Amsterdam's popularity in "social justice" circles.

Thailand has a deteriorating public image and that's the bigger issue. This case doesn't promote the Thailand "brand".

[jdinasia]

Amsterdam doesn't have any problem calling people names or attacking their credibility. His blatant lies and disingenuous facade certainly don't rate him much consideration when it comes to calling him out on his credibility.

[rubl]

What matters a great deal is that the Reds now have some real meaty alleged (but MOST specific!) facts of collusion by NAMED top people to destroy civilian demonstrators. This fuels the Red cause better than a leaking oil refinery.

Human nature being what it is I'm afraid you're right. To some it doesn't matter one iota whether the report is correct or not. Upcountry we already have various rumours floating around to make the report a description of a normal school outing. Mind you for the common UDD supporters the report needs to be translated first.

[geriatrickid]

Amsterdam doesn't have any problem calling people names or attacking their credibility. His blatant lies and disingenuous facade certainly don't rate him much consideration when it comes to calling him out on his credibility.

Feel free to contribute the the government's legal response. Should the case make it to a hearing, you and other Thai Visa members should consider filing an amicus curiae brief.

[jdinasia]

Amsterdam doesn't have any problem calling people names or attacking their credibility. His blatant lies and disingenuous facade certainly don't rate him much consideration when it comes to calling him out on his credibility.

Feel free to contribute the the government's legal response. Should the case make it to a hearing, you and other Thai Visa members should consider filing an amicus curiae brief.

Perhaps you should scroll back up, and watch the Al Jazeera interview again. The government won't need my help Then again since the ICC doesn't have any standing ..... it might just suggest that this is all a sham to try and keep Thaksin's name relevant in Thailand in some way ....but really ... it isn't all about Thaksin.

[truethailand]

What a waste of time..THAKSIN IS HISTORY...Hes passed his ....SELL BY DATE....

Maybe, but the army are still there and they used live ammo to quell a political protest, not even rubber bullets or tear gas.

Actually, they did use rubber bullets and tear gas. But they weren't much use against grenades and guns.

Exactly --- they started with teargas, then teargas and rubber bullets. The reds escalated by using petrol bombs and grenades. Even after the 10th of April there was no indiscriminate firing by the military. Finally at the end there were warnings given and in areas believed to be held by the armed reds, live fire and a lot of it.

If the reds had truly been "peaceful protestors, not terrorists" as their banner proclaimed ... they would not have been using weapons and the government would not have allowed the army to use harsher measures to quell the insurrection. Remember --- the reds were clearly calling for violence and rioting and destruction from the stage for a LONG time before the reds started with the petrol bombs etc.

"peaceful protestors not terrorists" certainly is not a description that fits the reds.

Exactly --- they started with teargas, then teargas and rubber bullets. The reds escalated by using petrol bombs and grenades. Even after the 10th of April there was no indiscriminate firing by the military. Finally at the end there were warnings given and in areas believed to be held by the armed reds, live fire and a lot of it.

If the reds had truly been "peaceful protestors, not terrorists" as their banner proclaimed ... they would not have been using weapons and the government would not have allowed the army to use harsher measures to quell the insurrection. Remember --- the reds were clearly calling for violence and rioting and destruction from the stage for a LONG time before the reds started with the petrol bombs etc.

"peaceful protestors not terrorists" certainly is not a description that fits the reds.

Bradley Cox, a Bangkok-based documentary filmmaker, said that earlier on the morning of May 19, troops fired sporadically from behind a barricade into areas 200 meters away that were controlled by red-shirted protesters for the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, or UDD. Cox, interviewed for a CPJ special report, said both he and Polenghi had taken footage of a protester shot in the leg around 10:45 a.m.

About 15 minutes later, Cox said, sensing a lull in the shooting, he moved away from a barricade controlled by the UDD and into a nearly empty road to investigate a commotion among protesters approximately 30 to 40 meters away. Cox said Polenghi followed a few steps behind. While running down the road, Cox felt a sudden, sharp pain in the side of his leg. It turned out that a bullet had grazed his knee, causing minor injury. When he turned to look back in the direction of the troops, he saw Polenghi sprawled on the ground about two or three meters behind him. Polenghi was wearing a blue helmet with the word "Press" written across the front and back, and a green armband indicating that he was a working journalist.

"My feeling at the time was that we were shot at the exact same time, perhaps even with the same bullet," said Cox, adding that he didn't hear the gunshot or shots that hit him or Polenghi. "I don't know who shot me or Fabio, but if the military was trying to shoot red shirts, there was no one around us. ... Soldiers were firing at anything or anybody."

Video footage Cox subsequently took of journalists and protesters who carried Polenghi's body out of the road and onto a motorcycle bound for a nearby local hospital appeared to show a bullet had entered Polenghi's body under his left armpit and exited through his side. He was declared dead on arrival at a local hospital, according to news reports. Authorities did not report any bullet being recovered.

Polenghi's family expressed concerns about the government's opaque investigation into the death. His sister, Elisabetta Polenghi, noted that many of his belongings, including his camera and telephone, were missing. She and a group of Polenghi's colleagues pieced together video clips--some received from journalists who were in Polenghi's vicinity, others downloaded from unknown sources on the Internet--to develop a timeline of movements before and after the shooting. There was no known footage of the shooting itself. One video clip showed that an unidentified man wearing a silver helmet was the first to reach Polenghi after he was shot. The brief footage showed him feeling around Polenghi's chest and briefly jostling with his camera, while another unidentified man wearing a yellow helmet knelt and took a photograph.

Government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn did not respond to questions from CPJ on the Polenghi shooting, including the assertion that soldiers had been firing indiscriminately.

That looks very indiscriminate to me. Would you believe a Thai government spokesman before a foreign journalist?

Edited January 31, 2011 by truethailand

[philw]

Amsterdam doesn't have any problem calling people names or attacking their credibility. His blatant lies and disingenuous facade certainly don't rate him much consideration when it comes to calling him out on his credibility.

Feel free to contribute the the government's legal response. Should the case make it to a hearing, you and other Thai Visa members should consider filing an amicus curiae brief.

Perhaps you should scroll back up, and watch the Al Jazeera interview again. The government won't need my help Then again since the ICC doesn't have any standing ..... it might just suggest that this is all a sham to try and keep Thaksin's name relevant in Thailand in some way ....but really ... it isn't all about Thaksin.

You got it in your final sentence.

Thank you.

It's not about Thaksin any more.

[jdinasia]

tt------

this from your post.

"I don't know who shot me or Fabio, but if the military was trying to shoot red shirts, there was no one around us. ... Soldiers were firing at anything or anybody."

I'll believe the journalist. He had an opinion and posted it ... but clearly states he didn't know who shot him. That would imply that there were other people shooting other than the military.

I'll also point out that your post in no way refutes what I posted.

Edited January 31, 2011 by jdinasia

[philw]

That looks very indiscriminate to me. Would you believe a Thai minister before a foreign journalist?

No.

And certainly not in this context.

[jdinasia]

You got it in your final sentence.

Thank you.

It's not about Thaksin any more.

LOL .. which is why, of course, the title of this thread is .........?

Which is why Thaksin is calling on people to vote PTP to bring him back .....

etc etc

This is ONLY about Thaksin and that is all it ever has been about.

edit

to reflect tt's edit -----

Nope that looks FAR from indiscriminate, it looks targeted. The reds (at one of their areas of control) said they would target journalists and that is what appears to have happened here.

Edited January 31, 2011 by jdinasia

[truethailand]

You got it in your final sentence.

Thank you.

It's not about Thaksin any more.

LOL .. which is why, of course, the title of this thread is .........?

Which is why Thaksin is calling on people to vote PTP to bring him back .....

etc etc

This is ONLY about Thaksin and that is all it ever has been about.

edit

to reflect tt's edit -----

Nope that looks FAR from indiscriminate, it looks targeted. The reds (at one of their areas of control) said they would target journalists and that is what appears to have happened here.

Your opinion but who was the man in silver helmet searching the chest of the victim. May I suggest a man looking for the bullet to see if it was trapped in the vest. Take away the evidence, a sniper round. If it was a sniper round he would have time to select his target, so why shoot an obvious journalist. The 4rse wipe rag you align to may have reported the reds were going to shoot the journalists, so there fore its a load of <deleted> to cover the tracks of the real killers. I hope the journos family are reading your pathetic reasoning.. sad really

[philw]

You got it in your final sentence.

Thank you.

It's not about Thaksin any more.

LOL .. which is why, of course, the title of this thread is .........?

Which is why Thaksin is calling on people to vote PTP to bring him back .....

etc etc

This is ONLY about Thaksin and that is all it ever has been about.

edit

to reflect tt's edit -----

Nope that looks FAR from indiscriminate, it looks targeted. The reds (at one of their areas of control) said they would target journalists and that is what appears to have happened here.

Maybe it could possibly be about the misrepresentations of the Gov't and Army ??

Possibly about people having an interest in the truth ??

The responsibilities of the military for the people ??

Wealth discrepancies.

Double standards

Nepotism and elitism

Whatever.................

Need I go on ?

I think There is an American expression for the obsession with Thaksin ( who I detest BTW ) beginning with A and ending with L.

Personally, I think a lot more than Thaksin is at stake here.

[Insight]

If you are correct and it's total BS, as you say, then Amsterdam has just destroyed his professional reputation merely to further Thaksin's lies.

However, ( excuse the pun ) What if there is a kernel of truth in these statements ??

What if there is more than a kernel ??

It's either a complete fabrication or there has to be an element of truth.

Must be one or the other.

Either way, someone is caught out.

Well if it was a big plot by the army to discredit the reds, was this guy the "mastermind" ?

[jdinasia]

"We condemn the intimidation of the media and being the target of the red shirts yesterday at the height of the crackdown," Thai Journalists Association (TJA) vice president Chavarong Limpattamapanee said in a phone interview.

"We are asking the government to stabilise the situation and do whatever they can to protect the members of the media as well as media offices," he said, referring to the arson attacks by angry red shirts on Thai television Channel 3 Wednesday. The offices of the English-language dailies 'Bangkok Post' as well as 'The Nation' were forced to close down in the afternoon that day after receiving threats.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=51516

and more from the same source .....

A Canadian freelance reporter, a Dutch journalist, and a U.S. documentary filmmaker were also injured Wednesday. On May 14, during clashes between protesters and soldiers, a French cameraman and two photographers from the Thai-language daily 'Matichon' and 'The Nation' were injured.

There have also been increased tensions between journalists and red shirts who accuse the media of misinformation. The ‘Bangkok Post’ reported that red shirts threatened a journalist doing interviews among them for fear that the information would be used to undermine the protests. In March, the government television station was the target of a grenade attack.

The Dutch journalist blames the government whilst admitting that the reds did harass .....

a different source .....

http://www.ifex.org/thailand/2010/05/19/polenghi_killed/ A Canadian freelance reporter was injured by grenade shrapnel. Two other journalists were wounded earlier, one Dutch man and an American documentary filmmaker. An unidentified journalist along with several soldiers was reportedly injured after a grenade fired from an M79 grenade launcher detonated at the Thai-Belgian Bridge along Rama 4 Road.

Even as "Red Shirt" protest leaders surrendered to police in the afternoon, many groups of protesters started to riot, looting malls and supermarkets, setting fires to banks and cinemas in the rally site's vicinity. They also turned their ire on the media

I could go on .... the reds threatened journalists and journalists were injured and killed.

Philw ---- Thaksin and nepotism and cronyism certainly do go hand in hand! Thank you for pointing that out!

[truethailand]

You got it in your final sentence.

Thank you.

It's not about Thaksin any more.

LOL .. which is why, of course, the title of this thread is .........?

Which is why Thaksin is calling on people to vote PTP to bring him back .....

etc etc

This is ONLY about Thaksin and that is all it ever has been about.

edit

to reflect tt's edit -----

Nope that looks FAR from indiscriminate, it looks targeted. The reds (at one of their areas of control) said they would target journalists and that is what appears to have happened here.

Maybe it could possibly be about the misrepresentations of the Gov't and Army ??

Possibly about people having an interest in the truth ??

The responsibilities of the military for the people ??

Wealth discrepancies.

Double standards

Nepotism and elitism

Whatever.................

Need I go on ?

I think There is an American expression for the obsession with Thaksin ( who I detest BTW ) beginning with A and ending with L.

Personally, I think a lot more than Thaksin is at stake here.

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). They want all to think its was only the 500 baht a day that made people stay in Bangkok for 2 months. The news they dont want to hear is that the poor of this country will not go away and their core is getting stronger, right or wrong they will rise again with or without Thaksin. if history teaches us anything its that people have been prepared to die for their beliefs. These people are no different. Another mini genocide will not auger to well with the international community

[webfact]

Thai opposition calls for world court probe

BANGKOK, January 31, 2011 (AFP) - Thailand's anti-government "Red Shirts" have officially asked the International Criminal Court to investigate possible crimes against humanity committed by the government, their lawyer said Monday.

Robert Amsterdam, a London-based representative for the movement, filed the petition on Sunday relating to deadly street clashes in Bangkok during two months of protests last year, he told a press conference via videolink.

The application requested that ICC prosecutors "launch a preliminary investigation relating to potential crimes against humanity committed in Thailand in April and May," Amsterdam said from Tokyo.

During the red-clad demonstrations in the capital, which peaked at 100,000 people calling for immediate elections, clashes between protesters and the military left more than 90 people dead.

Amsterdam cited in particular the alleged use of snipers and the firing of live ammunition by the army during the violence.

Although Thailand has not ratified the Rome Statute that created the ICC, Amsterdam argued that Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva was in fact a citizen of Great Britain, where he was born, and which is a signatory of the pact.

"I am a Thai citizen, not Montenegrin," Abhisit later said, in a jibe at the Reds' hero and fugitive former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, who has been given citizenship of Montenegro.

Thaksin, who was ousted in a coup in 2006 and lives abroad to escape a jail term for corruption, is also represented by Amsterdam.

The Red Shirts first urged the ICC to investigate the allegations in October, although the official complaint was filed on Sunday.

"We are appealing to international justice to put an end to Thai impunity," said the acting chairwoman of the Red Shirts, Thida Thavornseth.

"Our courts have failed to administer justice, and our government has failed to investigate the murders of more than 80 peaceful protesters," she added.

After an army crackdown that ended the protests in May, small bands of militant protesters set dozens of buildings ablaze across Bangkok, including a glitzy shopping mall in the upmarket commercial district.

An official Thai investigation into the deaths is under way, but the opposition has denounced the probe as a "whitewash".

The mostly poor and working class Red Shirts have shown increasing strength in recent months, holding rallies in Bangkok twice a month that have attracted tens of thousands of supporters.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-01-31

[jdinasia]

[

Maybe it could possibly be about the misrepresentations of the Gov't and Army ??

Possibly about people having an interest in the truth ??

The responsibilities of the military for the people ??

Wealth discrepancies.

Double standards

Nepotism and elitism

Whatever.................

Need I go on ?

I think There is an American expression for the obsession with Thaksin ( who I detest BTW ) beginning with A and ending with L.

Personally, I think a lot more than Thaksin is at stake here.

You are right ... there are wealth discrepancies. (less in Thailand than many places)

There are Double Standards --- (you of course know that phrase stared being used in Thailand after the 2001 assets concealment case riight?) The fact that yellows have been convicted before reds etc ...

The responsibility of the military to answer to a civilian government (not be ridden rough-shod over by a violent minority)

[jdinasia]

tt and philw ---

again look at the news (from Thaksin's lawyer ..... and from Thaksin himself) then continue to deny deny deny.

[Insight]

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). <blah blah blah blah>

Yawn.

Is it the army clapping at around 2.30 on this compilation of clips from the 19th May?

[jdinasia]

Nope insight --- those would be reds clapping .....

more from the IFEX website ---- decrying the censorship of the redshirt's media and new media by the government --- and --- wait for it ----- the attacks on the media by the reds.

Throughout the two months that the anti-government protest ran in the capital, the media repeatedly found itself under attack from various sides of the crisis. The government repeatedly sought to control the flow of information by blocking hundreds of websites and closing down satellite TV channels that broadcast what the government claims was Red Shirt propaganda that tended to incite violence. At the same time, media workers have been harassed and assaulted by protesters that have accused them of biased coverage.

please note -- SEAPA is the SouthEast Asian Press Association.

Edited January 31, 2011 by jdinasia

[jillwilliams999]

Thaksin have no case.

[ballpoint]

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). They want all to think its was only the 500 baht a day that made people stay in Bangkok for 2 months. The news they dont want to hear is that the poor of this country will not go away and their core is getting stronger, right or wrong they will rise again with or without Thaksin. if history teaches us anything its that people have been prepared to die for their beliefs. These people are no different. Another mini genocide will not auger to well with the international community

You're replying on a thread titled "Thaksin's Lawyer..." and you're trying to argue it's not about Thaksin? While Thaksin the Clown rambles on about being the saviour of Thailand and Sideshow Bob rambles on about presenting a case full of holes to a court that has no jurisdiction over it, the Krustettes are back on here again singing the same old made up tunes from the little Red songbook.

[truethailand]

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). <blah blah blah blah>

Yawn.

Is it the army clapping at around 2.30 on this compilation of clips from the 19th May?

Yawn. How derogatory but you still dont want to debate the social issues that are the root cause of red shirt protests. Getting close to the knuckle am I

[truethailand]

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). <blah blah blah blah>

Yawn.

Is it the army clapping at around 2.30 on this compilation of clips from the 19th May?

Yawn. How derogatory but you still dont want to debate the social issues that are the root cause of red shirt protests. Getting close to the knuckle am I

[SerpentSea]

By using Amsterdam's logic with Abhisit allegedly having duel citizenship, Monetenegro citizen Thaksin Shinawattra can now be investigated and tried for crimes against humanity at the ICC since Montenegro has ratified or acceded to the Rome Statute. To paraphrase Amsterdam:

"The court has the authority to investigate and prosecute people who are citizens of countries that are its members, which Montenegro is."

Yes, he could also be tried in a Montenegro court for these crimes. They Thai authorities could file a complain or you could do it probably too.

[Insight]

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). <blah blah blah blah>

Yawn.

Is it the army clapping at around 2.30 on this compilation of clips from the 19th May?

Yawn. How derogatory but you still dont want to debate the social issues that are the root cause of red shirt protests. Getting close to the knuckle am I

Not really. I find the so-called "social issues" highlighted by most red propagandists a common factor in any rapidly developing country which the current government is going to great lengths to address and therefore hardly substantial grounds for your hero's little red revolution.

So do you believe this "it was the army who torched Central World" crap?

[jdinasia]

You're replying on a thread titled "Thaksin's Lawyer..." and you're trying to argue it's not about Thaksin? While Thaksin the Clown rambles on about being the saviour of Thailand and Sideshow Bob rambles on about presenting a case full of holes to a court that has no jurisdiction over it, the Krustettes are back on here again singing the same old made up tunes from the little Red songbook.

and just yesterday .... "Thaksin urges supporters to vote phue thai to bring him home ......

but really .....

tt --- this isn't about social issues. This is about Thaksin. If it were about social issues you would be applauding the work being done by Abhisit and Korn. You aren't, you are just bringing up old news that can be refuted easily. (and not just by The Nation articles)

[truethailand]

Quite true PhilW. Its not about Thaksin but the same crew on here attached Thaksin to every post to justify, in their eyes, their views. Lets debate the Social issue and leave politics out if. I have asked more than once but they dont want that because their views are invalid without Thaksin (who I depise). They want all to think its was only the 500 baht a day that made people stay in Bangkok for 2 months. The news they dont want to hear is that the poor of this country will not go away and their core is getting stronger, right or wrong they will rise again with or without Thaksin. if history teaches us anything its that people have been prepared to die for their beliefs. These people are no different. Another mini genocide will not auger to well with the international community

You're replying on a thread titled "Thaksin's Lawyer..." and you're trying to argue it's not about Thaksin? While Thaksin the Clown rambles on about being the saviour of Thailand and Sideshow Bob rambles on about presenting a case full of holes to a court that has no jurisdiction over it, the Krustettes are back on here again singing the same old made up tunes from the little Red songbook.

All threads digress thats how they stay topical. Waiting for the Social Issue thread but then the'Nationous' crew would not be interested in that so the thread woul die. Nobody sings from the red song book, maybe a few of us are true to our unpaid beliefs. Krustettes I like that