Thaksin's Lawyer Robert Amsterdam Brings Crackdown On Reds To International Criminal Court

[ballpoint]

From the afore mentioned report's background "facts":

"While Thaksin had divested his interest in Shin Corp before the 2001 elections, by transferring his shares to his two eldest children, in early 2006 the family sold its 49.6% stake in the company to Temasek Holdings, Singapore's sovereign fund."

Rather neatly misses out the shares "given" to the driver, maid and other assorted domestic staff, the fact that his family members paid 1 baht for each share, the fact that Temasek bought the company within a week of the laws being changed so as to allow foreign ownership - either very negligent due diligence was done, or thay had insider knowledge, and the corruption by which Thaksin enriched the value of the company, just to bring up a few points I can think of off hand.

" In response, Thaksin dissolved the House of Representatives and called an election for April 2, 2006. Boycotted by the opposition, the elections yielded another comfortable victory by Thai Rak Thai, but the courts subsequently threw out the results on dubious constitutional grounds."

Fails to address the null vote that outvoted the TRT in a number of constituencies, as well as the dubious dealings done to try and get "opposition" candidates in many of the constituencies so as to address the 20% rule. Also makes no mention of the arrangement of polling booths so that an eye could be kept on who was voting for who.

"The PPP subsequently went on to win the first and, to date, the only post-coup general elections, held in December 2007. The party was able to build a coalition government led by Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej."

And here I was thinking that no party won the election. Why did they need to form a coalition then?

"As tens of thousands of travelers were left stranded, the government imposed the Emergency Decree and called on the country's armed forces to restore order. The military, however, refused to comply."

Funny that a report outlining the supposed brutality of the military in dealing with the red protest should be crying that the military failed to crush the yellow protest. Aren't human rights still human rights no matter what side is doing the alleged abusing?

I could go on all night picking this sham to pieces, but why give it any respect? I'm just wondering who the biggest fool is, Amsterdam for coming up with such an easily countered pack of lies, or Thaksin for paying for it? It's obvious that any defence lawyer would not have a difficult job getting it thrown out of an impartial court, even if a court accepted it, so I suppose it must be seen as the propaganda for idiots piece that it so clearly is.

[Buchholz]

The "Witty Report"...

BANGKOK and TOKYO, Jan. 30, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Today lawyers acting on behalf of the Red Shirt pro-democracy movement are presenting a petition to the International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague requesting prosecutors to open an inquiry into the situation in the Kingdom of Thailand relating to the alleged commission of crimes against humanity during the April/May crackdown of last year.

"We are appealing to international justice to put an end to Thai impunity," said Thida Thawornseth, leader of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD). "Our courts have failed to administer justice, and our government has failed to investigate the murders of more than 80 peaceful protesters. The ICC is only the first step of a broad campaign to seek justice across a number of international forums."

Speaking from Tokyo via videoconference, lawyer Robert Amsterdam drew comparisons with how other authoritarian governments use the military to violently repress protests. "When we look at all the striking parallels between what is currently happening in Egypt and what the Thai government did to the Red Shirts last year – from the killings to mass arrests to blatant manipulation of evidence to incriminate the victims – we can see that they are reading from the same script," said Amsterdam. "This case represents a historic opportunity for international justice to confront governments who deploy their militaries to use violence against their own citizens."

The ICC application contains a number of detailed testimonies, including an expert report by Joe Ray Witty, a former U.S. Army Sergeant and crowd control expert with the Los Angeles Police Department SWAT. Witty's report indicates that the Royal Thai Army's operations on May 19, 2010 were "military in nature" and "designed to kill innocent civilians, without provocation or justification, in order to suppress the Red Shirt demonstrations."

The Witty report also contains a number of shocking revelations, such as the Army's likely responsibility for grenade attacks against troops on April 10, 2010, which served as a pretext for soldiers to begin firing into the crowd of protesters, violating official rules of engagement.

"In light of repeated violent crackdowns throughout Thai history, this legal filing represents the first comprehensive attempt to obtain the facts and evidence of what happened during the 2010 massacres, let alone publish them before the public," said Amsterdam. "What we have exposed is not just a botched security operation, but rather a determined policy of extermination and elimination of the Red Shirt movement by the military. These egregious violations require answers and accountability."

A special website has been set up to host videos and witness testimonies of the dead and injured at http://www.thaiaccountability.org. A copy of the ICC application and accompanying materials will be published on http://www.robertamsterdam.com/thailand.

SOURCE: Amsterdam & Peroff

2011-01-30

[truethailand]

I see the Thaksin Tag Team Tangenters are back in livery,

trying to distract from the actual discussion..

That's no way to describe Insight, jdinasia and buchholz. Please retract this inflammatory statement at once.

I have a few words to describe them if you are stuck... Taxi

That's three of the ... ahem ... "GoF7" nailed....

No names

"What do the "red shirts" want? Democracy or Thaksin?" I trust this is an unpaid obsession... Its really is unnatural

[jdinasia]

No names

"What do the "red shirts" want? Democracy or Thaksin?" I trust this is an unpaid obsession... Its really is unnatural

Why start "no names" now?

unnatural is defending Thaksin --- even if you laid all the deaths of April and May at the feet of Abhisit instead of at the feet of the reds where they belong .... it wouldn't equal 4% of the deaths attributable to Thaksin. Then again you don't care about human rights --- Thaksin's war on drugs killed so many but you are defending his real politik fighters. You don't care about social equality and social reform either, or you would be talking about how the current government has put more in place in 2 years than Thaksin ever did to make REAL sustainable changes in the lives of the poor.

Again, if you cared about rural Thailand and social issues ... you wouldn't be taking the side you are. People far less cynical than me would be calling you on your "agenda" tt.

[Insight]

"What do the "red shirts" want? Democracy or Thaksin?" I trust this is an unpaid obsession... Its really is unnatural

Are you (also) accusing me of being paid to post?

It's just something I give a shit about. But I'm glad it gives people problems in the process.

/edit - which related "legal" firm is responsible for a large amount of Internet-based lobbying again? Stones and glass houses...

Edited January 31, 2011 by Insight

[whybother]

Thanks for the link. It would only be fair to let people read it all, read the other statement links on this thread, check you tube and other sources, then let them make their own minds up. Why try to direct people to the most questionable piece of the statement, the rest makes very interesting reading and appears factual. If true it paints an awful picture for some. I am waiting for Thaivisa witnesses to confirm they saw the planting of incendiary devices prior to the 19th in that mall. My Gran would refer to you as 'all piss and wind' no substance. My gran knew a 'wrong un'

Yes ... interesting reading ... particularly because it's basically made up:

SPIEGEL:

Some of the accounts are detailed reports right from the center of power. It seems it would be easy to identify some of them, especially "Witness 22."

Amsterdam:

That's the reason why his account is actually an amalgam of the testimony of a number of people. Every one of them would be prepared to make an appearance in The Hague, if needed. But until then, we have to protect their identities.

1. I am a resident of Bangkok, Thailand. I am making this statement anonymously because I am

afraid to give my real name for fear that the Thai government will retaliate against me. Consequently,

some of the information contained in this statement is intentionally vague, but this is not because I lack

knowledge of the facts, but because if I were more specific about certain events it would identify me,

placing my life in grave danger. I am disclosing as much information as I safely can.

2. My first language is Thai. However, although this statement is prepared in English, it has been

translated for me, and its contents are accurate.

3. I am a well‐placed active duty officer in the Royal Thai Army. My position has allowed me to

acquire extensive and detailed information about the official response to the Red Shirt movement,

including the planning and execution of military operations against Red Shirt demonstrators.

[ballpoint]

"What do the "red shirts" want? Democracy or Thaksin?" I trust this is an unpaid obsession... Its really is unnatural

They want democracy, that's why they voted for all their leaders, and had another election once some of them were jailed, rather than just place a family member in charge. It can also be seen in the way they took the government's offer of November elections back to their members and had a further vote on whether to accept national elections or not. Further proof can be seen in the way the leaders totally repudiated Thaksin from their stage and refused to acccept any of his phone calls. They also made good on their promise to carry on their May protest and never surrender, despite the flow of money from Thaksin being cut off at the time. In recent days they have shown their willingness to negotiate with the government to bring about early elections and, being non politically aligned with the PTP or Thaksin, have come out in support of the government's rural policies, while offering some of their own following detailed discussions with their grass roots members. Yes, any fool can see that they're pro-democracy, but anyone with any intelligence can see that it's all about Thaksin.

[MAJIC]

Solicitor Amsterdams prelimimnary submission staement

I really can't see how the ICC will take this case on. It seems that even just submitting it to the ICC and having it blown out of the water is better than not submitting it at all as far as the Thaksin/A'dam team is concerned. Surely even they can't imagine it will succeed.

As the old saying goes,any publicity is good publicity.

In this instance if they lose the case (highly likely) then it will generate further publicity,by accusations of an unfair verdict,and strengthening,more Red Shirt Protests,and more money for Amsterdam,and the Red Shirt Rent a Mob.

[rubl]

That looks very indiscriminate to me. Would you believe a Thai government spokesman before a foreign journalist?

What about the Canadian chap vanderGrift who had a grenade lobbed on him and some Army people? Who would you believe indeed.

Sorry, photos a bit bloody, just one of those things

[rubl]

A special website has been set up to host videos and witness testimonies of the dead and injured at http://www.thaiaccountability.org. A copy of the ICC application and accompanying materials will be published on http://www.robertams...m.com/thailand.

Does this mean we can submit all those clips from 2009, from broadcasts of PTV / red stage 2010 etc., etc. ? My favorite clip 'I burned it my way' with the famous Thai karaoke singer k. Sarisman ?

[rubl]

I see the Thaksin Tag Team Tangenters are back in livery,

trying to distract from the actual discussion..

That's no way to describe Insight, jdinasia and buchholz. Please retract this inflammatory statement at once.

I offer my excuses even though I don't have acceptable ones. I was working, I didn't have time. If I had I'd say please ignore Mr. Hanuman1's remark. I don't think he wanted to post an inflammatory statement, it must have slipped out somehow. If the powers that be take offence, I only hope someone will take mercy on his soul (after execution that is )

[webfact]

Lawyer files case with ICC over red shirts

By PRAVIT ROJANAPHRUK

THE NATION

Red-shirt lawyer Robert Amsterdam filed a notice with the International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague yesterday about a "potential crime-against-humanity case" - allegedly committed by the Thai government.

The application requests that an ICC prosecutor launch a preliminary investigation into the death of 91 people, mainly red-shirt demonstrators, who it alleges were "intentionally killed" by the government in April and May last year.

Amsterdam has alleged that the government set the stage for a deadly crackdown by using security officers camouflaged as the mysterious "men in black" to stage fatal attacks on Army troops sent to suppress the demonstrators on April 10. This was done so the Army could justify deadly retaliation, he has claimed, adding that no "men in black" were arrested.

"We will find a course and we will bring justice to the people of Thailand," Amsterdam said via a videoconference from Tokyo yesterday. "We have a massive amount of evidence."

The Canadian lawyer said evidence included the firing of live ammunition into the air, including .50-calibre heavy-machine-gun fire, equipping troops with military weapons and employing snipers "without immediate threat".

He insisted that the military never intended to disperse the crowd and left no escape route and intended to create chaos and assassinate red-shirt leaders. When the plan failed, the Army then provoked the crowd looking for an excuse to open fire, he claimed.

Amsterdam also claimed the Army hired arsonists to set fire to buildings at Ratchaprasong Intersection on May 19 to justify the brutal crackdown. Amsterdam said he filed the case because "Thailand has demonstrated a complete absence of the rule of law".

His "Plan A" was to get the ICC, of which Thailand is not a member, to accept the case against Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva. He claimed this was feasible because Abhisit was born in England, and according to the 1948 British Citizen Act was a British subject unless he had forfeited citizenship, and Britain is a signatory to the ICC.

Abhisit denied this later, saying he was not a UK citizen.

The lawyer, hired by fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, insisted that he also had a Plan B - and more.

"We have a Plan A to Z," he told Thai and Japanese media, as well as hundreds of red shirts who went to see the video link at Imperial World Lat Phrao in Bangkok.

He admitted that getting the case accepted by the ICC would be a "difficult course" but claimed it was not impossible and that there were other grounds. "We need to convince the prosecutor to go forth."

The 250-page application can be accessed via his website.

"The Army is not the enemy. It is those who directed it."

He urged rank-and-file soldiers who witnessed or were involved in the crackdown to come forward to provide more evidence.

The ICC is an international court of "last resort" that only hears extremely serious cases involving genocide and crimes against humanity - if such offences are not dealt with by a country's justice system. Observers say there is little likelihood of the court taking up the matter.

Amsterdam said the result would take quite a while. But he said: "Why wait? Why allow this man to continue?" He was referring to Abhisit. "Thai people will have to go home and ask him."

Red-shirt Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship Thida Thavornsaet Tojirakarn said the filing of the case "is just the beginning".

-- The Nation 2011-02-01

[whybother]

Solicitor Amsterdams prelimimnary submission staement

I really can't see how the ICC will take this case on. It seems that even just submitting it to the ICC and having it blown out of the water is better than not submitting it at all as far as the Thaksin/A'dam team is concerned. Surely even they can't imagine it will succeed.

As the old saying goes,any publicity is good publicity.

In this instance if they lose the case (highly likely) then it will generate further publicity,by accusations of an unfair verdict,and strengthening,more Red Shirt Protests,and more money for Amsterdam,and the Red Shirt Rent a Mob.

So you mean that the ICC applies double standards too? The reach of the Bangkok elite and Thai military is amazing.

[Buchholz]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,742653,00.html Thai PM Gave 'Carte Blanche Order to Massacre Civilians'

Amsterdam:

We believe that Abhisit is a British subject.

SPIEGEL:

The Prime Minister of Thailand?

Amsterdam:

He was born in 1964 in the English city of Newcastle. That makes him a British national unless he has formally renounced his British citizenship later on, which we do doubt. The UK had better sort out quickly whether Abhisit is indeed a British national.

His "Plan A" was to get the ICC, of which Thailand is not a member, to accept the case against Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva. He claimed this was feasible because Abhisit was born in England, and according to the 1948 British Citizen Act was a British subject unless he had forfeited citizenship, and Britain is a signatory to the ICC.

Abhisit denied this later, saying he was not a UK citizen.

Interesting to read the varying accounts from Amsterdam. He vacillates between sounding sure Abhisit is a UK citizen and simply guessing that he is.

It sounds like something that could be easily proven one way or the other by this afternoon. One would think it is incumbent upon Amsterdam to prove unequivocally that Abhisit is a UK citizen and not for Abhisit to prove a negative.

The lawyer, hired by fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, insisted that he also had a Plan B - and more.

"We have a Plan A to Z," he told Thai and Japanese media

Well, he might as well bring on B through Z, because A sounds like it might easily get blown by the wayside.

[Buchholz]

Family of Thaksin

Supporters of former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra watch a video conference by Thaksin's lawyer Robert Amsterdam at a Bangkok mall January 31, 2011. Amsterdam held a news conference in Tokyo saying he had petitioned the International Criminal Court to launch a preliminary investigation into "potential crimes against humanity" by Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva during "red shirt" anti-government protests in April-May, 2010.

REUTERS

[Ricardo]

<snip for brevity>

His "Plan A" was to get the ICC, of which Thailand is not a member, to accept the case against Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva. He claimed this was feasible because Abhisit was born in England, and according to the 1948 British Citizen Act was a British subject unless he had forfeited citizenship, and Britain is a signatory to the ICC.

Abhisit denied this later, saying he was not a UK citizen.

The lawyer, hired by fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, insisted that he also had a Plan B - and more.

<snip for brevity>

-- The Nation 2011-02-01

So RA's "Plan A" has already failed at the first test, since PM-Abhisit is likely to know what nationality he is, another resounding victory for the Red-Shirts & UDD, who are the ones supposed to be paying him, according to Khun Thida.

She must be delighted with their lawyer's rapid progress ! Onwards now to "Plan B", not that there was anything faulty with "Plan A" of course, "Kerching, kerching,kerching !".

I'm tempted to repeat something from my current signature, a line penned by Woody Guthrie many years ago, "Some will rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain-pen", still so very true.

[whybother]

Family of Thaksin

<snipped pic>

Supporters of former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra watch a video conference by Thaksin's lawyer Robert Amsterdam at a Bangkok mall January 31, 2011. Amsterdam held a news conference in Tokyo saying he had petitioned the International Criminal Court to launch a preliminary investigation into "potential crimes against humanity" by Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva during "red shirt" anti-government protests in April-May, 2010.

REUTERS

Why is RA in Japan? Is he trying to use the fact that one Japanese reporter was killed to get the support of the Japanese for charging Abhisit with crimes against humanity?

[newermonkey]

Have people read some of the BS in these reports? Here's statement #59 by "Anonymous Witness 22"

After the 2nd Infantry Battalion breached the Red Shirt barricades, they secured the entire Ratchaprasong area. By 17:00 hours, the Army had fully secured all of the Central World buildings. Allcivilians were removed from the buildings, including numerous security guards who worked at Central World. After the civilians were removed, soldiers of the 2nd Infantry Battalion were posted outside Central World to prevent anyone from approaching or entering. The purpose of this exercise was to

permit a team of arsonists contracted by the Army to plant incendiary devices inside Central World. These devices were intentionally ignited at approximately 17:45 hours, destroying the Zen store building. The operation was planned by the Army Leadership, with the consent and approval of the Government Leadership, several weeks in advance of May 19. The purpose of the operation was to cement in the public mind the concept that the Red Shirt movement was violent and dangerous, which the Government Leadership and the Army Leadership believed would create the impression that the Army’s actions in suppressing the Red Shirts were justified. In fact, the Red Shirts had nothing to do

with the fires that destroyed part of the Central World complex.

Available here http://www.thaiaccou...ness-No.-22.pdf

I'm sure there's more than a few witnesses on ThaiVisa who can testify that the reds had planted "incendiary devices" days before May 19th, along with the footage of red shirts burning and looting the place.

/edit - Here's my own favourite from that day:

A friend of mine who lives in Bangkok went to Central World for shopping when the reds were entrenched outside. He was shocked when he noticed thousands of liters of deisel oil stored by the reds in the underground parking lot, at the time he thought it was potentially exteemly dangerous (I think he was correct in his assessment, as they obviously torched it)

[Wellington]

Family of Thaksin

<snipped pic>

Supporters of former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra watch a video conference by Thaksin's lawyer Robert Amsterdam at a Bangkok mall January 31, 2011. Amsterdam held a news conference in Tokyo saying he had petitioned the International Criminal Court to launch a preliminary investigation into "potential crimes against humanity" by Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva during "red shirt" anti-government protests in April-May, 2010.

REUTERS

Why is RA in Japan? Is he trying to use the fact that one Japanese reporter was killed to get the support of the Japanese for charging Abhisit with crimes against humanity?

Possibly he has gone to Japan as he might be safer there;

I can't believe the Thai Govt. will not take action against him for the steadily mounting list of untruths emanating from his office.

[Insight]

Family of Thaksin

<snipped pic>

Supporters of former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra watch a video conference by Thaksin's lawyer Robert Amsterdam at a Bangkok mall January 31, 2011. Amsterdam held a news conference in Tokyo saying he had petitioned the International Criminal Court to launch a preliminary investigation into "potential crimes against humanity" by Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva during "red shirt" anti-government protests in April-May, 2010.

REUTERS

Why is RA in Japan? Is he trying to use the fact that one Japanese reporter was killed to get the support of the Japanese for charging Abhisit with crimes against humanity?

Possibly he has gone to Japan as he might be safer there;

I can't believe the Thai Govt. will not take action against him for the steadily mounting list of untruths emanating from his office.

AFAIR he's been banned from entering the country. Doesn't explain why he chose Japan however.

[jdinasia]

Who cares why he is in Japan? Meeting a different client? Trying to muster up support for Thaksin? it just doesn't matter.

His ICC court bid is just targetted at keeping anger from the moderate reds focused on the government. Simply propaganda at the behest of his client, Thaksin. The thing is, even the moderate reds are capable of seeing what the reds on this forum are not; and that is the current government is actually trying to accomplish long-term sustainable programs to benefit the rural poor. They are, at the same time, hitting many of the "elite" of all colors by proposing taxing undeveloped land etc,

[animatic]

Family of Thaksin

<snipped pic>

Supporters of former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra watch a video conference by Thaksin's lawyer Robert Amsterdam at a Bangkok mall January 31, 2011. Amsterdam held a news conference in Tokyo saying he had petitioned the International Criminal Court to launch a preliminary investigation into "potential crimes against humanity" by Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva during "red shirt" anti-government protests in April-May, 2010.

REUTERS

Why is RA in Japan? Is he trying to use the fact that one Japanese reporter was killed to get the support of the Japanese for charging Abhisit with crimes against humanity?

Possibly he has gone to Japan as he might be safer there;

I can't believe the Thai Govt. will not take action against him for the steadily mounting list of untruths emanating from his office.

AFAIR he's been banned from entering the country. Doesn't explain why he chose Japan however.

Money to be had seems his main motivator.

[gemini81]

"What do the "red shirts" want? Democracy or Thaksin?" I trust this is an unpaid obsession... Its really is unnatural

They want democracy, that's why they voted for all their leaders, and had another election once some of them were jailed, rather than just place a family member in charge. It can also be seen in the way they took the government's offer of November elections back to their members and had a further vote on whether to accept national elections or not. Further proof can be seen in the way the leaders totally repudiated Thaksin from their stage and refused to acccept any of his phone calls. They also made good on their promise to carry on their May protest and never surrender, despite the flow of money from Thaksin being cut off at the time. In recent days they have shown their willingness to negotiate with the government to bring about early elections and, being non politically aligned with the PTP or Thaksin, have come out in support of the government's rural policies, while offering some of their own following detailed discussions with their grass roots members. Yes, any fool can see that they're pro-democracy, but anyone with any intelligence can see that it's all about Thaksin.

They don't know what they want, other than free handouts, and really have no education or idea what the hell democracy even is.

[Pi Sek]

If you are correct and it's total BS, as you say, then Amsterdam has just destroyed his professional reputation merely to further Thaksin's lies.

However, ( excuse the pun ) What if there is a kernel of truth in these statements ??

What if there is more than a kernel ??

It's either a complete fabrication or there has to be an element of truth.

Must be one or the other.

Either way, someone is caught out.

This is the best post I have ever seen you make, raising important questions.

Of course there has to be an element of truth - as with all liars, they rely on confusion between truth and falsehoods. So, in the end, both sides are caught out - but that's fine by Amsterdam as he's not the one being attacked in the media (unless he's being interviewed by Al Jazeera!).

I think he may have gone a bit far when he starts talking about army Black Shirts being prepared when...

Abhisit, along with senior government and army officials, began drawing up plans for suppressing anti-government protesters shortly after he assumed power in a military coup in 2006

That's just not even credulous - whereas the army shooting people is, especially given Thailand's track record - and to be honest I find it surprising that Bob Amsterdam's network would forward such inaccurate historical information to one of his media associates. As for the Bank of Thailand comment in the Al Jazeera interview - well, I guess we can write that one off as a rare Amsterdam slip. I bet he regretted giving that interview!

However, I would propose that Robert Amsterdam's Mikhail Khodorkovsky case has already destroyed his professional reputation as a credible lawyer, although the nature of his defeat made him a champion for conspiracy theorists - hence his current profession as a lobbyist.

Mr. Amsterdam is carrying out his duties as legal counsel. Attacking Mr. Amsterdam doesn't address the claims being made. It is up to the ICC to accept or to deny the case based upon its legal merits. Don't make it personal. Lawyers can represent unpopular people, but that doesn't make the lawyer evil.

Interesting that the story receives space in the Toronto Star, one of Canada's largest circulation newspapers. I rarely see mention of Thailand in the story lines of the Canadian newsfeeds that iIreceive. The exception are the alleged crimes against Canadian nationals in Thailand with the Pai case receiving infrequent mention. Perhaps the willingness of a Canadian paper to run with the story reflects the poor international image Thailand has, as well as Mr. Amsterdam's popularity in "social justice" circles.

Thailand has a deteriorating public image and that's the bigger issue. This case doesn't promote the Thailand "brand".

GK is correct on this, you can't blame Robert Amsterdam for doing his job - he is a lobbyist and what he is doing is lobbying.

I believe we discussed the Toronto Star in another thread - I said I thought a recent article was tabloid reporting, to which you corrected me that the paper was in fact a very well-circulated broadsheet, one of Canada's leading ones. Nonetheless, I certainly doubted the professionality of a paper that claimed that Thaksin had kept quiet on matters relating to Thailand since 2006, as the Toronto Star did.

I can't really say whether Thailand has a deteriorating image or not - I haven't spent more than a week outside Thailand since 2003. But Thailand has never really had a "good" reputation, has it?

As for Mr. Amsterdam's popularity in "social justice" circles, I would certainly point you to a few blogs by those who supported him before he was famous - most of them consider him a sellout. Try googling "Robert Amsterdam liar" - some of the comments on a piece that The Guardian (very well circulated UK broadsheet, a bit left wing, and one of the 5 recipients of the WikiLeaks docs) allowed him to publish say it all.

[Pi Sek]

That looks very indiscriminate to me. Would you believe a Thai government spokesman before a foreign journalist?

I'm afraid that I'm probably in the minority here - but I'd believe neither of them after last year's events, there are liars in both groups. All depends on who they work for.

[Pi Sek]

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4183225

and just yesterday .... "Thaksin urges supporters to vote phue thai to bring him home ......

but really .....

tt --- this isn't about social issues. This is about Thaksin. If it were about social issues you would be applauding the work being done by Abhisit and Korn. You aren't, you are just bringing up old news that can be refuted easily. (and not just by The Nation articles)

I don't really think that's fair jdinasia... social issues are a significant factor in the Red Shirt movement's demands. Unfortunately this protest movement is run more by the UDD than the overall Red Shirt movement, probably due to financing providing the UDD with a louder voice.

Unfortunately, the way I see it, the UDD are not interested in social issues, but they will acknowledge them if it gains them numbers. However, they don't offer any solutions and furthermore slam Abhisit for trying to hijack 'their' cause of helping the poor. They are interested in Thaksin though.

[Pi Sek]

I see the Thaksin Tag Team Tangenters are back in livery,

trying to distract from the actual discussion..

That's no way to describe Insight, jdinasia and buchholz. Please retract this inflammatory statement at once.

I offer my excuses even though I don't have acceptable ones. I was working, I didn't have time. If I had I'd say please ignore Mr. Hanuman1's remark. I don't think he wanted to post an inflammatory statement, it must have slipped out somehow. If the powers that be take offence, I only hope someone will take mercy on his soul (after execution that is )

I thought it was quite funny. Not quite as funny as Abhisit's "I'm Thai, not Montenegran" though

Your levity is good, it relieves tension and the fear of death.

- Arnie, Terminator III

[Wellington]

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4183225

and just yesterday .... "Thaksin urges supporters to vote phue thai to bring him home ......

but really .....

tt --- this isn't about social issues. This is about Thaksin. If it were about social issues you would be applauding the work being done by Abhisit and Korn. You aren't, you are just bringing up old news that can be refuted easily. (and not just by The Nation articles)

I don't really think that's fair jdinasia... social issues are a significant factor in the Red Shirt movement's demands. Unfortunately this protest movement is run more by the UDD than the overall Red Shirt movement, probably due to financing providing the UDD with a louder voice.

Unfortunately, the way I see it, the UDD are not interested in social issues, but they will acknowledge them if it gains them numbers. However, they don't offer any solutions and furthermore slam Abhisit for trying to hijack 'their' cause of helping the poor.

They are interested in Thaksin though.

Only because he pays them.

[SomTumTiger]

The right side won, the wrong side is complaining. All is right with the world, I dont' lose any sleep. Thaksin will die outside Thailand, and Abhisit will be PM until 2015. Its already been written.

Frankly, most people living here don't' give a dam_n. lol

[Pi Sek]

<snip>

... social issues are a significant factor in the Red Shirt movement's demands. Unfortunately this protest movement is run more by the UDD than the overall Red Shirt movement, probably due to financing providing the UDD with a louder voice.

Unfortunately, the way I see it, the UDD are not interested in social issues, but they will acknowledge them if it gains them numbers. However, they don't offer any solutions and furthermore slam Abhisit for trying to hijack 'their' cause of helping the poor.

They are interested in Thaksin though.

Only because he pays them.

That was my point!

But the UDD (not the Red Shirts' principle social issues) and PTP policies (namely the bring-back-Thaksin one) exist only because he pays them. And that is wrong.