Thai Army Will Retaliate And No Longer Talk With Cambodia: Sansern

[Thai at Heart]

NO allies ? .............Have you never heard of Laos or Vietnam, get your facts right . And who does Thailand have...............nobody for sure , and do you think Thailand could depend on Myanmar or Malaysia . :lol: :lol:

Wait, did you just call Vietnam an ally to Cambodia?

Vietnam is already Cambodia's 10th largest foreign investor, as well as Cambodia's third strongest trade partner within ASEAN, and the sixth largest amongst all of Cambodia's current trading partners. Cambodia and Vietnam enjoy very complementary economies, along with similar consumer demands and habits, which combined with 1,137 km of border area, results in an incredible potential for substantial bilateral trade growth with vast possibilities for increased mutual benefits.

http://www.asiaecon.org/special_articles/read_sp/12949

Mr Niyom said the investment in Cambodia by Thai people had declined to the 9th rank from the 3rd-4th positions due to the political and border conflicts.

http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/165490.html

Being economic partners has nothing to do with being military allies in this part of the world. If Cambodia didn't do business with Thailand, Vietnam and Laos, who would they do with business with? I will hold out a while for Cambodia's economic might to expand beyond its direct borders. Maybe a decade or two. Thailand largest companies are already invested there, and yet the two are still fighting over scrubland.

What odds the possibility that Cambodia and Vietnam eventually come to blows over their borders some time in the next 10 years?

Natural alliances do not exist in this part of the world. The political ideologies, colonial history and recent history of wars make it largely impossible for these countries to get together. And as for anyone claiming that Vietnam is an ally (suggesting military) of Cambodia, I will wait to see the treaties proving it. Links anyone. We could be here a while.

[kuffki]

NO allies ? .............Have you never heard of Laos or Vietnam, get your facts right . And who does Thailand have...............nobody for sure , and do you think Thailand could depend on Myanmar or Malaysia . :lol: :lol:

Wait, did you just call Vietnam an ally to Cambodia?

Vietnam is already Cambodia's 10th largest foreign investor, as well as Cambodia's third strongest trade partner within ASEAN, and the sixth largest amongst all of Cambodia's current trading partners. Cambodia and Vietnam enjoy very complementary economies, along with similar consumer demands and habits, which combined with 1,137 km of border area, results in an incredible potential for substantial bilateral trade growth with vast possibilities for increased mutual benefits.

http://www.asiaecon....s/read_sp/12949

You fail to understand realpolitik, alright...

Vietnam is NOT an ally of Cambodia. The reality is however that trade and globalization reduces nations will to go at full out war with each-other, both nations have too much to lose. But an ally is NOT the same as trading-partner. An Ally is someone who is committed to join in on your side in an event of war or conflict.

If you two think that Vietnam would come to Cambodia's side in the event there became a full out war they you guys need to brush up on the regions recent history.

You absolutely right, if only i was blessed with your understanding of things and way of thinking.

[oldsailor35]

Why are the Thais not asking for mediation? IMHO they feel they are facing an inferior aggressive force and that they will have no problems holding them at the border if necessary. No talkies? Why bother (no reference to the TV poster!) I believe the Cambodians are reacting to PAD pressure on the Thai govt.

If this goes on for a few weeks, who will suffer? Cross border trade is about 1% of Thailand's GDP, a lot bigger slice of Cambodia's. Already one tourist dead at a Cambodian temple - that will do wonders for Angkor attendance, especially if Thailand stops air connections.

Last time I was in Cambodia, the big news was a glut of papaya(?) grown for the Thai bio-fuel plants. Thailand had excess supply and was buying locally in preference (as you do) and the farmers in western Cambodia were screaming. With the border closed, you'll hear them in BKK.

And next time the armchair generals start matching up armies, they may consider logistics. The Thai highways are pretty good, even out that far, and the Cambodian roads.............should that be road?

Yes sailor, Thailand has hospitals close to the border, and bigger better hospitals a short trip away. They also have mental institutions which were a great help to that Pattaya chap.

OK thanks for the info and are they in the beaten zone of mortars and artillary fire.

[DP25]

For all the people commenting about Cambodia's economy guaranteeing allies, lets take a look at the amount each country exports. Thailand exported about $196 billion US worth of goods during 2010, Cambodia exported about $5 billion US. Thailand exports about 40 times the amount of goods per year that Cambodia does. Yeah, various trade partners may be important to Cambodia, but Cambodia is not important to them.

[oldsailor35]

NO allies ? .............Have you never heard of Laos or Vietnam, get your facts right . And who does Thailand have...............nobody for sure , and do you think Thailand could depend on Myanmar or Malaysia . :lol: :lol:

Wait, did you just call Vietnam an ally to Cambodia?

Vietnam is already Cambodia's 10th largest foreign investor, as well as Cambodia's third strongest trade partner within ASEAN, and the sixth largest amongst all of Cambodia's current trading partners. Cambodia and Vietnam enjoy very complementary economies, along with similar consumer demands and habits, which combined with 1,137 km of border area, results in an incredible potential for substantial bilateral trade growth with vast possibilities for increased mutual benefits.

http://www.asiaecon....s/read_sp/12949

YES Tawp .ask Kuffki, don't take my word for it. I am sure that Vietnam has a lot more time for Cambodia these days than Thailand.

[geriatrickid]

Cobra Gold is intended for a Chinese audience and to retain US position in SE Asia. Japan does the same thing, except it does it via economic aid in the form of low cost loans and infrastructure funding,

Cambodia does indeed have strategic local allies in China and Vietnam. The support is not because they love Cambodia, but because of their strategic economic interests. China likes access to cheap Cambodian resources and a market for its lower end manufacturing output. Vietnam has no use for Thailand since it intends to replace Thailand as the alternative SE economic destination. If a Cambodia vs. Thai clash scares the crap out of the international investment and tourist community, Vietnam is the winner.

The USA really has more important issues on its plate right now. It needs to stay on good terms with China because of the economy, Iran and North Korea. Thailand may find itself isolated on this one since it is no more valuable than Cambodia in terms of international importance. The world may just sit back and watch the locals kill each other for a bit.

[aaacorp]

We seem to have quite a few posters on here saying any blame for all this rests with Thailand, the Thai Govt, the PM, the Thai army.

But look at from the point of what each country, Govt has anything to gain or lose.

From what I can see there is no way that Thailand, the army or the Govt can gain anything from starting any fighting.

All are in a no win situation, financialy or politicaly.

On the other hand Cambodia and in particular their PM [dictator] has a lot to gain.

By pretending he is defending the country against the invading Thais he is stirring national feeling in his favour.

Should, as I think is probable, there be the hand and purse of his former advisor behind all of this then he will be getting well rewarded.

It will also give him reason to strengthen the military, new weapons etc. Incase the Thai's invade again.

After all as a dictator the army are his backing against any popular uprising.

From what I read the MOU [signed by whoes govt?] gave the temple to Cambodia but did not define the border around it.

I see nowhere where the Thai Govt has said the temple belongs to Thailand.

However the surrounding land is what is in dispute.

All this started when Cambodia declared the land as theirs and started building roads.

What did you expect the Thai Govt to do say "Take as much as you like".

And If they had said OK you can have the small bit of land, where would it stop? remember part of the sea bed is also under dispute.

The Thai deputy PM has suggested a joint area under the control of both countries for their mutual benefit.

Nowhere did I see a reaction to that from Cambodia.

Well you should read your own posts as the interest is exactly the same for Thai government and army:

"By pretending he is defending the country against the invading Thais he is stirring national feeling in his favour."

-> Is there no deep division now in thailand? sure the country is strongly united...so this may be applied on thailand too

"It will also give him reason to strengthen the military, new weapons etc. Incase the Thai's invade again"

-> look at the budget allocated the last year for thai army and compare it with 2009, 2008

"After all as a dictator the army are his backing against any popular uprising."

-> It's well known that Thai army never did anything to help political parties and never used coup to dismiss a government critical with the army powers

Look at the political situation in the two countries and compare

Where are there lot of political troubles those past years?

Is there any kind of succession pointing is nose somewhere and an urgent need of common believe?

[farang000999]

The BBC is reporting that Thai artillery has accidentally destroyed part of the Preah Vihear temple. If true, how typically Thai.

:jap:

[AleG]

[quote name='Robby nz' timestamp='1297082963' post='4203425'...

And:

The source said a son of Hun Sen, Brig Gen Hun Manet, personally commanded the latest fighting around the Preah Vihear temple area.

It was Brig Gen Hun Manet who ordered retaliatory action because Cambodian soldiers suffered heavy casualties in previous clashes. The Cambodian soldiers were ordered to attack on Sunday night, the source said.

"Hun Sen wants the Cambodian people to be satisfied with his son.

"He wants his son to be an army chief despite he fact that Hun Manet is only 33 years old. Hun Manet graduated from the West Point military academy of the United States. He has been tipped to replace his father as the country's military leader in the future," the source said.

Well, that paints a rather interesting landscape for the current conflict.

While I don't discount the possibility of rogue elements within the Thai army to instigate the hostilities I think (as in my opinion) that the Abhisit government is not behind it. It doesn't serve it to any gain at all, some say he's doing the PAD bidding, but still the PAD still wants his head on a plater... now over the border conflict issue. It can also be spun (as some have already done here) as a demonstration of how he is subservient to the military.

In any case recent polls have shown a plurality of the votes in an election would go to the Democrats, and an almost certain victory of their coalition with other smaller parties, so it would be senseless to open a can of worms like this to improve their standing.

[softgeorge]

Same army spokesman made a statement that Cambodian fired fireworks , he then made a statement they fired fireworks and heavy artillery into Thai army and now he is making a statement of no more talks.

It is either that he is badly misinformed or Thai army wants nothing but war.

And before anyone jumps in to Thai defense, please read his statement again, its written pretty clear "no more talk with its Cambodian counterpart"

Over 2,000 generals sitting around with nothing to do and getting bored.

[MUYTHAI]

My research shows, the temple was started around 11th century.

Thailand, before that Siam, was not around then. Even the Kingdom of Ayutthaya starts 1430 or there abouts.

We agree its a Khmer temple, built by Khmers, during the Khmer empire, on Khmer (then) soil.

80% of Khmers reside in Cambodia.

So my question is: Who's name is on the yellow book?

So who should the Egyptians give back the pyramids to?

This comment makes no sense in regards to this issue. The present day Egyptians are the same people (genetically) as the builders of the pyramids. Genetic tests done on mummy tissue of the rulers from various Egyptian Kingdoms prove that the kings, queens, etc. were Arab Caucasians... just the same as the majority of people who live in Egypt today. They were and are the present-day Arab Caucasians that now live there. Of course, over time, Islam, Christianity, etc. arose and many adopted those religions and other ethinic groups migrated to the area in small numbers. The Nubians, who were Bantu Negroes from south of the Egyptian Kingdom border [ Note to moderators...Bantu Negro is a scientific term used in anthropology, genetics, hominid evolution, biology, etc. and is not a racial slur ] took control of Egypt for a very short time during a time of weakness in the Egyptian 'government', but were later expelled. Later, Anglo Caucasians had control for a short time. How can the present-day Egyptians give the pyramids back to themselves? This makes no sense.

I have an idea. A compromise. Divide the disputed land in half...right down the middle. Let Cambodia take the half closest to their country and Thailand take the half closet to their country. Cambodia can charge temple entrance fees and Thailand can allow Cambodia to let tourists from Cambodia use any road that might be built on Thai land. Thailand can, in turn, get some sort of kick back from the fees that Cambodia generates from temple fees for use of any road(s) that people coming from the Cambodian side use... or charge a fee to the tourists for passing on the road. People coming to the temple from the Thai side could also be charged a fee by the Thais. Cambodians would be given free entrance, just as they have free entrance at Angkor Wat Archaeological Park, etc. Maybe the Cambodians would be charged a small fee by the Thais, if they used any road on the Thai side. Thais could be charged a temple entrance fee by Cambodia because the temple is on Cambodian land. Maybe only charge foreign tourists and let the Thais and Cambodians have free access. This could be worked out and made to work, if both sides wanted to give a little and find a solution in which both countries can profit somewhat equally

Edited February 7, 2011 by MUYTHAI

[stepenwolf1958]

This will never be a real war. Not any side will have guts to declare war. In the case that one side declares war on the other, eventually one side will have to sign it's defeat one day. Neither side is able to admit defeat, because it is considered losing face and reputation. Simply, it is tradition, rigid frame. Both sides. So, in my opinion, this will be just border clash as always.

Something else is confusing.

Why Thailand has no talent for diplomacy, for negotiations with neighbouring countries? Why always trying to solve problems by arms, perhaps not intentionally, falling into the armed conflicts on the occasion of the borders?

Recent history is full of examples and evidence of incapacity for diplomacy with neighbours.

Thailand has had a number of years of armed conflict with Laos, not only with Cambodia. Human victims in wars or let us say border conflicts with Laos, were in the thousands. So why all the time Thailand is having problems with neighbours?

Maps prepared by France during the war in Indochina are mutually recognized. Thailand admitted those maps then. Why Thailand ignore it now, don't respect them now?

It was then time for comments. Since the maps are adopted, they are binding for all signatories. And of course, for Thailand.

[KRS1]

After all these years with the temple being on Thai soil, why does Cambodia NOW try to claim it as theirs?

The land won from the Cambodians hundreds of years ago belongs to Thailand no matter what is located on it.

[jackdawson]

retain US position in SE Asia.

what position is that ?

the one where the new (female) ambassador paints on the walls of the bangkok compound w/ thai kids to show WE mean business .

please , we're so done it's funny

current and former jarheads just can't accept/see it

[stepenwolf1958]

After all these years with the temple being on Thai soil, why does Cambodia NOW try to claim it as theirs?

The land won from the Cambodians hundreds of years ago belongs to Thailand no matter what is located on it.

Sorry, where did you get that? The temple is on Thai land? Says who? Do you have any proof it is Thai land?

Whether you like it or not, the time for complaining is over since the day THAIS signed the French maps about that area.

[Skywalker69]

Interesting that both sides are fighting over a Buddhist Temple - ironic.

It´s a Hindu Temple.

[stepenwolf1958]

After all these years with the temple being on Thai soil, why does Cambodia NOW try to claim it as theirs?

The land won from the Cambodians hundreds of years ago belongs to Thailand no matter what is located on it.

You said land under the temple was taken at war with Cambodia a few hundred years ago.

I can not believe that anyone well educated would be able to say such nonsense.

You have to know that the internationally recognized borders are recognized first on the basis of agreement by both parties.

Based on the fact that Thailand has signed (not long ago) these borders, you have no right to call for something that has happened a few hundred years ago. It is ignoring of an international documents and to remind you it is an obligation for Thais now.

If you give a valid proof of your claims here, i would like to see it.

Or maybe you intent to go in the audit borders with all neighbouring countries? If this is the intention, why to consider only a few hundred years? Go to the revision of boundaries that were at the time of Lavo State or Sukhothai Kingdom. Why not? It would be also ridiculous as your words now.

I just hope you are not part of establishment in Thailand. I am sure Thais are not stupid to think way you do.

[OzMick]

Why are the Thais not asking for mediation? IMHO they feel they are facing an inferior aggressive force and that they will have no problems holding them at the border if necessary. No talkies? Why bother (no reference to the TV poster!) I believe the Cambodians are reacting to PAD pressure on the Thai govt.

If this goes on for a few weeks, who will suffer? Cross border trade is about 1% of Thailand's GDP, a lot bigger slice of Cambodia's. Already one tourist dead at a Cambodian temple - that will do wonders for Angkor attendance, especially if Thailand stops air connections.

Last time I was in Cambodia, the big news was a glut of papaya(?) grown for the Thai bio-fuel plants. Thailand had excess supply and was buying locally in preference (as you do) and the farmers in western Cambodia were screaming. With the border closed, you'll hear them in BKK.

And next time the armchair generals start matching up armies, they may consider logistics. The Thai highways are pretty good, even out that far, and the Cambodian roads.............should that be road?

Yes sailor, Thailand has hospitals close to the border, and bigger better hospitals a short trip away. They also have mental institutions which were a great help to that Pattaya chap.

OK thanks for the info and are they in the beaten zone of mortars and artillary fire.

Only if they are deliberately targetted. Consider this - if a "tourist" goes to a certain spot , say a hospital, with a commercial GPS and takes a reading, any competent artillery officer in range supplied with that reading should be able to hit it when required to at a later date. Or he could just fire expensive shells at Random (good luck with that) and his chances of hitting anything significant are about the same as you scoring a darts bulls-eye while wearing a blindfold.

There is also the conspiracy theory lunatics who suggest that the Thais may have targetted their own people.

[stepenwolf1958]

Interesting that both sides are fighting over a Buddhist Temple - ironic.

It´s a Hindu Temple.

They don't fight about the Temple. Temple belongs to Cambodians and it is out of the question as it is decided by international institution, whether some like it or not.

Fighting is about the PIECE of land, worthless piece of land around the temple. The last relevant map is made by French and it is signed by both sides but the landmarks are not visible, are neglected all of these years so there are 2 understandings of maps. Source of troubles, for sure.

[fredtitmus]

Fresh fighting on border with Thailand: Cambodian PM

PHNOM PENH, February 7, 2011 (AFP) - Thai and Cambodian troops clashed Monday for a fourth straight day, Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen said, as tensions again surged in a border dispute that has left at least five people dead.

"The firing has started for the fourth time," Hun Sen said at a graduation ceremony in the capital.

A Cambodian military commander who did not wish to be named said both sides traded fire just after 8:00 am (0100 GMT). He was unable to say what kind of weapons were involved.

A Thai military source near the border said that about two minutes of small arms fire had been heard on Monday morning, describing it as a "misunderstanding."

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-02-07

Amazing either Cambodia started it or it is a misunderstanding.

The Thai's can not be responsible.

Now is the time for Abhist to step up to the plate. No more misunderstanding's.

Will he NO

Sad when the PM can not use his brains and uses the Thai can do no wrong myth to put a country in to a stupid war.

isnt every war stupid! I remember the british troops being sent out to fight the argantinians cos they had taken an island of ours,a little shitty island that is about 8000 miles from the uk and guess what? yes! its right next to argentina ! At the time our primeminister margerat thatcher was'nt popular and was on her way out but we won the war and Thatcher was now this great leader.basically 257 british servicemen lost their lives so maggie could keep her job.

im not an expert on this conflict but i believe shinawatra has a lot to blame for this kicking off and it isnt as much to do with the temple than people think.

[KRS1]

After all these years with the temple being on Thai soil, why does Cambodia NOW try to claim it as theirs?

The land won from the Cambodians hundreds of years ago belongs to Thailand no matter what is located on it.

You said land under the temple was taken at war with Cambodia a few hundred years ago.

I can not believe that anyone well educated would be able to say such nonsense.

You have to know that the internationally recognized borders are recognized first on the basis of agreement by both parties.

Based on the fact that Thailand has signed (not long ago) these borders, you have no right to call for something that has happened a few hundred years ago. It is ignoring of an international documents and to remind you it is an obligation for Thais now.

If you give a valid proof of your claims here, i would like to see it.

Or maybe you intent to go in the audit borders with all neighbouring countries? If this is the intention, why to consider only a few hundred years? Go to the revision of boundaries that were at the time of Lavo State or Sukhothai Kingdom. Why not? It would be also ridiculous as your words now.

I just hope you are not part of establishment in Thailand. I am sure Thais are not stupid to think way you do.

Of course it would be quite ignorant to look at the French map as you are doing , when there was a newer more precise Dutch map made in 1760...The French map which you are referring to was made in 1686 and was notoriously inaccurate.

An agreement is deemed invalid when the information presented therein is inaccurate or without the knowledge of the other, in the case of the French map it is exactly this case,

Of course unless either one of us go out and take an actual survey of the area neither of us will ever know the boundary lines.

Edited February 7, 2011 by KRS1

[Skywalker69]

We seem to have quite a few posters on here saying any blame for all this rests with Thailand, the Thai Govt, the PM, the Thai army.

But look at from the point of what each country, Govt has anything to gain or lose.

From what I can see there is no way that Thailand, the army or the Govt can gain anything from starting any fighting.

All are in a no win situation, financialy or politicaly.

On the other hand Cambodia and in particular their PM [dictator] has a lot to gain.

By pretending he is defending the country against the invading Thais he is stirring national feeling in his favour.

Should, as I think is probable, there be the hand and purse of his former advisor behind all of this then he will be getting well rewarded.

It will also give him reason to strengthen the military, new weapons etc. Incase the Thai's invade again.

After all as a dictator the army are his backing against any popular uprising.

From what I read the MOU [signed by whoes govt?] gave the temple to Cambodia but did not define the border around it.

I see nowhere where the Thai Govt has said the temple belongs to Thailand.

However the surrounding land is what is in dispute.

All this started when Cambodia declared the land as theirs and started building roads.

What did you expect the Thai Govt to do say "Take as much as you like".

And If they had said OK you can have the small bit of land, where would it stop? remember part of the sea bed is also under dispute.

The Thai deputy PM has suggested a joint area under the control of both countries for their mutual benefit.

Nowhere did I see a reaction to that from Cambodia.

100% agree!!

[Skywalker69]

After all these years with the temple being on Thai soil, why does Cambodia NOW try to claim it as theirs?

The land won from the Cambodians hundreds of years ago belongs to Thailand no matter what is located on it.

Yes, and why is the only enterence to the Temple from the Thai side? Cambodia is building a new enterence from their side.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed.

[Siripon]

After all these years with the temple being on Thai soil, why does Cambodia NOW try to claim it as theirs?

The land won from the Cambodians hundreds of years ago belongs to Thailand no matter what is located on it.

Yes, and why is the only enterence to the Temple from the Thai side? Cambodia is building a new enterence from their side.

And that could be one of the problems, they're building the road through the disputed territory that both countries agreed to do nothing to without agreement from both sides.

[webfact]

Reports from Mathichon indicate that another round of clashes have broken out; Hun Sen's son reportedly injured /TAN_Network

[pogal]

You got proof?

I know, those buildings were probably blown up by fake Cambodians.

Probably the same Cambodians they used in the Red Shirt Riots as snipers. Busy boys! 55555555

[TAWP]

Reports from Mathichon indicate that another round of clashes have broken out; Hun Sen's son reportedly injured /TAN_Network

All clouds have a silver lining...

[tomyummer]

Darn those pesky Men in Black!

[tomyummer]

Reports from Mathichon indicate that another round of clashes have broken out; Hun Sen's son reportedly injured /TAN_Network

Which son from which wife?