Buddhism & Dying...

[Cuban]

I have been to a few funerals at the local Wat for both expected (very old age) deaths and one unexpected death as a result of a motorbike crash, so I know the practical processes etc. but these have not been within the family.

I expect during the coming year or so we will have the death of the great-grand mother that will have serious ramifications within the family matriarchy. She is very religious and forms part of the core of the local wat. From what I can tell there has not be a significant death in the family for over twenty years so this will new or fresh territory for most family members.

Within the family she is a good person but does have a stern approach to some non-family outsiders, we get on well!

What I seek guidance on is what to say to my wife and the other siblings during the impending days before the event and the days of grieving that will follow.

I can talk about the order of succession and the natural way of families, how her life's work has been to guide her children to be good people, and to the most part they are fine - some better than others.

One issue that I am pondering over is whether to talk to my wife about things she could/should tell her mother before she dies. I know from my own experiences that people leave such conversations too late, as facing up to the inevitable seems to be wrong in their eyes, it's easier to be in denial.

I don't need generic bereavement guidance - done plenty of that.

With in Christian based faiths I can rabbit on about going to a better place, end of bodily pain and resting after a life's good works.

I seek specific buddhism thoughts about the ideal transition from a long life and her spirit to seek out an attachment to a new life in a new body. What might be the time delay between these phases be? Samsara is it?

Can I use the analogy of lighting successive candles using the flame from the last for the next generation? But this implies the incarnation is instant.

Thanks in advance.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Cuban

[AYJAYDEE]

i think it a bit presumptious to assume there is any need for you to say anything to them in this regard other than to say how sorry u are. this culture has proved to be very skillful at dealing with death. much more so than western cultures if u ask me. the community and the wat will know what to say, theyve been doing it for yeaars without assiatance

[rockyysdt]

Hi Cuban.

The Buddha taught that upon death, past unresolved karma gives rise to re birth.

There is an endless cycle of death followed by re birth until karma is expended and/or enlightenment takes place.

My understanding is that all Buddhist traditions maintain that the final moment before death is critical to determining a person's future re birth.

We are told by Buddhist masters that the final moment of our consciousness is paramount, the most important moment of all.

If death is known to be imminent and the person can't survive, the family should call in the Buddhist priest to pray for the loved one so that at the final moment, the right state of mind has been reached within the person, allowing them to find their way into a higher state of re birth as they leave the present life.

When with a family member who is dying I recommend active listening and attention to their needs in order to assist with the settling of their mind. If they haven't already achieved it, teaching dhamma at this stage will probably be ineffective.

Active listening to your wife's feelings and words is also the best thing you can offer her.

A dhamma teacher who instructs chaplains indicated that the best way to interact with a person is to actively listen to them without advice. This includes listening to emotions as well as the words. Actively listening by nodding, asking questions and/or rephrasing what was said can be very profound and transformative to the one who is speaking.

For the one who is dying, just being present, caring, actively listening and being attentive to the dying person's wishes is the most powerful thing one can do at this time.

I hope this helps you and your family cope during this trying time.

Edited February 10, 2011 by rockyysdt

[Cuban]

Thanks for that Rocky, reassures me I'm on the right path.

Any comments about the rebirth ideas?

(I'll contact you off list to have a general natter when I can write a longer email - it's been a while !)

[camerata]

I seek specific buddhism thoughts about the ideal transition from a long life and her spirit to seek out an attachment to a new life in a new body. What might be the time delay between these phases be? Samsara is it?

Can I use the analogy of lighting successive candles using the flame from the last for the next generation? But this implies the incarnation is instant.

The problem is that according to Theravada Buddhist doctrine, rebirth is instant. Tibetan Buddhism assumes a 49-day period called Bardo in which the "spirit" is in limbo. But popular Thai belief is often more like Tibetan Buddhism. Many people believe that the "spirit" (winyaan) of someone who dies violently hangs around on earth waiting for closure of some kind.

I don't think you need to explain rebirth to Thais. Just assure those concerned that since the old lady was devout, she'll undoubtedly have a good rebirth (which means in the human or heavenly realms). It's also believed that one can make merit for the dead (i.e. transfer the merit to them to help them if they didn't have a good rebirth), so making merit is important and helpful for those grieving.

I've asked Thais how they explain death to young kids and they said just tell them the dead person has "gone to heaven." I asked if this (sawan) was one of the specific Buddhist heavenly realms, but was told it just meant a nice place "somewhere up there."

Samsara just refers to the seemingly endless round of rebirths in different realms, which can only be escaped by attaining nibbana/nirvana.

[lungmi]

Rebirth or not, funeral rituals and so on, where all Buddhists, Christians and other religions converge:

Do everything that the dying can die happy, Caring for the dying,

Buddhadasa Never Dies

Buddhadasa shall live, there's no dying.

Even when the body dies, it will not listen.

Whether it is or goes is of no consequence,

it is only something passing through time.

Buddhadasa carries on, there's no dying.

However good or bad the times,

always one with the true teaching.

Having offered body and mind in ceaseless service

Under Lord Buddha's command.

Buddhadasa lives on, there's no dying.

In service to all humanity forever

through the Dhamma Proclamations left behind --

O, Friends, can't you see! What dies?

Even when I die and the body ceases

my voice still echoes in comrades' ears

clear and bright, as loud as ever.

Just as if I never died the Dhamma-body lives on.

Treat me as if I never died,

as though I am with you all as before.

Speak up whatever is on your minds

as if I sit with you helping point out the facts.

Treat me as if I never died, then

many streams of benefits will accrue.

Don't forget the days we set aside for Dhamma discussion;

Realize the Absolute and stop dying!

Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

(on the occasion of his eightieth birthday, 27 May 1987)

Please note that he does not say he will be living in some other realm or condition. This poem is about, partly, non-attachment to death, which includes non-attachment to life, birth, being, & becoming. His emphasis was always on Dhamma, not himself, and wanted his students to do the say.

--------------------------

This poem is for me a message how to take care of dying : You will die?, No, your body will die, but the love you gave to us, never will die. You gave life to your children, instructions for life, you not die. Now you say goodbye, we are grateful for what you gave to us, we will continue to give your love to our children, our friends, to society.

For me "rebirth" is speculation, but when someone dies "calm, clean, cool, clear" with the assistance of beloved ones I'm 100% convinced that every kind of "rebirth" will be good, not only for the dying but for the caring ones too.

[Cuban]

Thank you for the body of the three intelligent replies above, they are each useful to me.

I don't think you need to explain rebirth to Thais.

You misunderstand me on this point - I am not explaining to anyone.

I seek to understand the emotional environment I will be in the middle of during a time I can not be asking dam_n stupid farang questions about the religious aspect of death.

Any other thoughts along the lines of the above would be most welcome.

Thank you.

[khaowong1]

Hi Cuban.

The Buddha taught that upon death, past unresolved karma gives rise to re birth.

There is an endless cycle of death followed by re birth until karma is expended and/or enlightenment takes place.

My understanding is that all Buddhist traditions maintain that the final moment before death is critical to determining a person's future re birth.

We are told by Buddhist masters that the final moment of our consciousness is paramount, the most important moment of all.

If death is known to be imminent and the person can't survive, the family should call in the Buddhist priest to pray for the loved one so that at the final moment, the right state of mind has been reached within the person, allowing them to find their way into a higher state of re birth as they leave the present life.

When with a family member who is dying I recommend active listening and attention to their needs in order to assist with the settling of their mind. If they haven't already achieved it, teaching dhamma at this stage will probably be ineffective.

Active listening to your wife's feelings and words is also the best thing you can offer her.

A dhamma teacher who instructs chaplains indicated that the best way to interact with a person is to actively listen to them without advice. This includes listening to emotions as well as the words. Actively listening by nodding, asking questions and/or rephrasing what was said can be very profound and transformative to the one who is speaking.

For the one who is dying, just being present, caring, actively listening and being attentive to the dying person's wishes is the most powerful thing one can do at this time.

I hope this helps you and your family cope during this trying time.

Very good advice.

[khaowong1]

Thank you for the body of the three intelligent replies above, they are each useful to me.

I don't think you need to explain rebirth to Thais.

You misunderstand me on this point - I am not explaining to anyone.

I seek to understand the emotional environment I will be in the middle of during a time I can not be asking dam_n stupid farang questions about the religious aspect of death.

Any other thoughts along the lines of the above would be most welcome.

Thank you.

Like Camerata said above, Theravada Buddhists, which include most Thai's, believe rebirth is "instant" and where this rebirth will take place, ie: heaven, human, etc, pretty much depends on the dying persons last thoughts just before passing on. From your talking of her being a good person and a major supporter of her wat, she shouldn't worry. It would be nice if a monk or someone she likes is there with her when she passes and encourges her to think good thoughts. If her last thoughts are on the Buddha or her loving family, she's going to be so happy in her next life. Good, Happy thoughts. That's my advice.

[christiaan]

i think it a bit presumptious to assume there is any need for you to say anything to them in this regard other than to say how sorry u are. this culture has proved to be very skillful at dealing with death. much more so than western cultures if u ask me. the community and the wat will know what to say, theyve been doing it for yeaars without assiatance

I completely agree.

Looking back at the dead of the mother of my Thai partner, not long ago, Thai culture shows they can very well deal with dead and going on with life.

My partner, who had a very close relation to her mother, did not had a great need for talking, she just wanted to have me near her when possible.

[healthcaretaker]

Cuban,

Let me try to contribute something as I don't see the best answers provided yet.

I think it is necessary to know of what religion is the person who is going to pass away soon, as well as those whom you need to speak to.

If she or they are christian(s), remind them they should be happy as she is going to be heaven and it is (their) god's wish(as christians believed).

If she is a Buddhist, tell her not to worry as the most painful feeling anyone who is going to die could have is worry for others. Also find a way to let them understand that death is better than living when the time is up. It's the end of sufferings for her as well as for those living(who need to look after her). Most important is make sure she can have everything she wanted before she go and she go with peace of mind and feel contended.

If everyone around her understand it before the event, there is no need to say much after the event as there will not be much grievance. If not, make them all understand those living should not feel too sad after the event so that her soul can go in peace. Whether a not if they believe the dead can feel it or not is not as important.