2nd Army Commander Challenges PAD To Go Fight The Cambodian Military Themselves

[stepenwolf1958]

Congratulation to general Tawatchai for words of wisdom. Bravo. Finally and from the right person, slap to senile turtle(s) in PAD.

Congratulation to MP of Democrats Mr. Charoen. That is brave and diplomatic. Same congrats to Admiral Narong.

Prudent and wise move of Admiral and Democrat MP. Sharp, snappish statement of general Thawatchai. Brave energetic man.

[baboon]

Somebody buy this fine man a large one!

[tig28]

Be a man, General! Give us the long overdue answer why the Army lets the Khmer advances on the land around the Pra Viharn Shrine while barring the Thai from the area.

Could this -- from The International Court of Justice decision 1962 -- be the answer??

]"In its Judgment on the merits the Court, by nine votes to three, found that the Temple of Preah Vihear was situated in territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia and, in consequence, that Thailand was under an obligation to withdraw any military or police forces, or other guards or keepers, stationed by her at the Temple, or in its vicinity on Cambodian territory[/b]."

[whybother]

Be a man, General! Give us the long overdue answer why the Army lets the Khmer advances on the land around the Pra Viharn Shrine while barring the Thai from the area.

Could this -- from The International Court of Justice decision 1962 -- be the answer??

]"In its Judgment on the merits the Court, by nine votes to three, found that the Temple of Preah Vihear was situated in territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia and, in consequence, that Thailand was under an obligation to withdraw any military or police forces, or other guards or keepers, stationed by her at the Temple, or in its vicinity on Cambodian territory[/b]."

Ahhh ... but ... the ICJ only ruled on the temple, not the land around it.

That is why there is still a dispute.

[jayboy]

Be a man, General! Give us the long overdue answer why the Army lets the Khmer advances on the land around the Pra Viharn Shrine while barring the Thai from the area.

Could this -- from The International Court of Justice decision 1962 -- be the answer??

]"In its Judgment on the merits the Court, by nine votes to three, found that the Temple of Preah Vihear was situated in territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia and, in consequence, that Thailand was under an obligation to withdraw any military or police forces, or other guards or keepers, stationed by her at the Temple, or in its vicinity on Cambodian territory[/b]."

Ahhh ... but ... the ICJ only ruled on the temple, not the land around it.

That is why there is still a dispute.

You seem unable to distinguish between a pretext and a cause.The cause of the current dispute is very clear and lies with the quasi fascist PAD and their military supporters.

[Just1Voice]

It would seem that a lot of people are either "missing the boat", or are just blatantly defiant. If you take the time to read the ICJ ruling, it ruled that the 1907 map was the "official map", citing numerous opportunities in the previous 50 years for Thailand to object to it, which they didn't bother to do. Therefore, the ruling clearly states the French map is "official", and that the boundary line on it is ALSO OFFICIAL. The only ones "disputing" this is Thailand, but for some reason, in the 10 year time frame allowed for appeals to the ICJ ruling, Thailand never bothered to offer any form of appeal. If you think you're right, and have a legal case, you file an appeal. Why didn't Thailand? Oh, wait, I know. Losing 'face" TWICE over the same issue would have been too much for them to bear. So they didn't file an appeal, but want to sit and cry about it like a spoiled child who can't have his way.

For those of you who stick to the claim the ICJ ruled "only" on the temple.....GO READ THE RULING!!!!!

Edited February 15, 2011 by Just1Voice

[Lancelot]

"The 2nd Army commander has accused the People's Alliance for Democracy of being ultra-nationalists and has challenged them to go fight the Cambodian military themselves."

Priceless!

The PAD seem quite willing to send others to fight and die for their cause. Let's see how they fare on their own.

Chances are that it will be fairly short and painless.

I agree.

I remember a scene from All Quiet on The Western Front when the old soldier, Stanislaus Katczinsky, suggests that the way to settle international conflicts is for the belligerant leaders of one country to challenge their antogonists to meet on a foot ball field and the last man standing determines the outcome.

If that were to happen, world peace would suddenly be a priority

[whybother]

It would seem that a lot of people are either "missing the boat", or are just blatantly defiant. If you take the time to read the ICJ ruling, it ruled that the 1907 map was the "official map", citing numerous opportunities in the previous 50 years for Thailand to object to it, which they didn't bother to do. Therefore, the ruling clearly states the French map is "official", and that the boundary line on it is ALSO OFFICIAL. The only ones "disputing" this is Thailand, but for some reason, in the 10 year time frame allowed for appeals to the ICJ ruling, Thailand never bothered to offer any form of appeal. If you think you're right, and have a legal case, you file an appeal. Why didn't Thailand? Oh, wait, I know. Losing 'face" TWICE over the same issue would have been too much for them to bear. So they didn't file an appeal, but want to sit and cry about it like a spoiled child who can't have his way.

For those of you who stick to the claim the ICJ ruled "only" on the temple.....GO READ THE RULING!!!!!

Can you please quote the sentence(s) where they "ruled" that the 1907 map was the "official map"?

My reading of it shows that the only ruling they made was as to who owns the temple. They used the 1907 map to come to that decision, but nowhere did they "rule" that the map was official.

[whybother]

You seem unable to distinguish between a pretext and a cause.The cause of the current dispute is very clear and lies with the quasi fascist PAD and their military supporters.

I am not commenting on the pretext or the cause of the dispute. Tig was suggesting that the reason that the Thai army wasn't letting Thais into the disputed area (not the temple itself) was because the 1962 ruling. But the 1962 ruling only ruled on the temple, and not the surrounding 4.6 sq km of land.

[oldsailor35]

It would seem that a lot of people are either "missing the boat", or are just blatantly defiant. If you take the time to read the ICJ ruling, it ruled that the 1907 map was the "official map", citing numerous opportunities in the previous 50 years for Thailand to object to it, which they didn't bother to do. Therefore, the ruling clearly states the French map is "official", and that the boundary line on it is ALSO OFFICIAL. The only ones "disputing" this is Thailand, but for some reason, in the 10 year time frame allowed for appeals to the ICJ ruling, Thailand never bothered to offer any form of appeal. If you think you're right, and have a legal case, you file an appeal. Why didn't Thailand? Oh, wait, I know. Losing 'face" TWICE over the same issue would have been too much for them to bear. So they didn't file an appeal, but want to sit and cry about it like a spoiled child who can't have his way.

For those of you who stick to the claim the ICJ ruled "only" on the temple.....GO READ THE RULING!!!!!

Just1voice.......you are right , Ruling states PV is situated in territory under the control of Cambodia, whats so complicated about that.

[brahmburgers]

From my limited understanding, the temple and its parcel is Cambodian. The adjoining parcels around the temple, on the plateau, are Thai. A win win scenario could be set up, but I see the PAD as being the biggest stumbling block (though I've generally been a PAD supporter in their earlier campaigns).

Why couldn't Cambodia figure a way to get a gondola constructed, from their property below - up to the temple? Similar cable transports have been built elsewhere. The technology isn't that tough, is it?

Visitors could visit the temple from the Thai side or the from the Cambodian side. Perhaps all visitors would pay a token amount (to Cambodian officials) to visit the actual temple itself - without hassles for visas, etc.

A joint administering crew (10 to 20 people) would be an easier and more sane solution, but the concepts of 'easy' and 'sane' play no part in SE Asian bureaucracies. 18 countries are currently paired off doing such 'joint management' of Heritage Sites. Thailand and Cambodia could be the first Asian pair of that sort, if they could find a way to converse maturely. PAD ultra-nationalists go home - you're only making things worse!

[whybother]

Peoples .... This dispute is not about the temple. It is about the 4.6 sq km of land surrounding the temple.

In 1962 the ICJ ruled on the temple. That is all they ruled on. The area surrounding the temple hasn't been ruled on.

[Buchholz]

It would seem that a lot of people are either "missing the boat", or are just blatantly defiant. If you take the time to read the ICJ ruling, it ruled that the 1907 map was the "official map", citing numerous opportunities in the previous 50 years for Thailand to object to it, which they didn't bother to do. Therefore, the ruling clearly states the French map is "official", and that the boundary line on it is ALSO OFFICIAL. The only ones "disputing" this is Thailand, but for some reason, in the 10 year time frame allowed for appeals to the ICJ ruling, Thailand never bothered to offer any form of appeal. If you think you're right, and have a legal case, you file an appeal. Why didn't Thailand? Oh, wait, I know. Losing 'face" TWICE over the same issue would have been too much for them to bear. So they didn't file an appeal, but want to sit and cry about it like a spoiled child who can't have his way.

For those of you who stick to the claim the ICJ ruled "only" on the temple.....GO READ THE RULING!!!!!

A smallish sample of how every major news media source in the world must be getting it wrong...

======================================================================================================

The cliff-side Khmer Hindu temple was awarded to Cambodia in a 1962 ruling by the International Court of Justice, but ownership of adjoining land has remained in dispute.

DPA

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/news/366042,armys-actions-border-battle.html

=======================================================================================================

While the International Court of Justice awarded the temple to Cambodia in 1962, the areas adjacent to the 11th Hindu temple remain under dispute.

Xinhua

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90851/7280491.html

=======================================================================================================

The International Court of Justice awarded it to Cambodia in 1962 but the ruling did not determine the ownership of the scrub next to the ruins, leaving considerable scope for disagreement.

Reuters

http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE71408P20110205?pageNumber=3&virtualBrandChannel=0

========================================================================================================

The World Court ruled in 1962 that Preah Vihear itself belonged to Cambodia, although its main entrance lies in Thailand. The exact boundary through the surrounding grounds remains in dispute.

AFP

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/8781169/fresh-fighting-at-thaicambodian-border-army-source/

=========================================================================================================

Edited February 15, 2011 by Buchholz

[Just1Voice]

Can you please quote the sentence(s) where they "ruled" that the 1907 map was the "official map"?

My reading of it shows that the only ruling they made was as to who owns the temple. They used the 1907 map to come to that decision, but nowhere did they "rule" that the map was official.

http://www.icj-cij.o...se=45&k=46&p3=5

In its Judgment, the Court found that the subject of the dispute was sovereignty over the region of the Temple of Preah Vihear. This ancient sanctuary, partially in ruins, stood on a promontory of the Dangrek range of mountains which constituted the boundary between Cambodia and Thailand. The dispute had its fons et origo in the boundary settlements made in the period 1904-1908 between France, then conducting the foreign relations of Indo-China, and Siam. The application of the Treaty of 13 February 1904 was, in particular, involved. That Treaty established the general character of the frontier the exact boundary of which was to be delimited by a Franco-Siamese Mixed Commission

In the eastern sector of the Dangrek range, in which Preah Vihear was situated, the frontier was to follow the watershed line. For the purpose of delimiting that frontier, it was agreed, at a meeting held on 2 December 1906, that the Mixed Commission should travel along the Dangrek range carrying out all the necessary reconnaissance, and that a survey officer of the French section of the Commission should survey the whole of the eastern part of the range. It had not been contested that the Presidents of the French and Siamese sections duly made this journey, in the course of which they visited the Temple of Preah Vihear. In January-February 1907, the President of the French section had reported to his Government that the frontier-line had been definitely established. It therefore seemed clear that a frontier had been surveyed and fixed, although there was no record of any decision and no reference to the Dangrek region in any minutes of the meetings of the Commission after 2 December 1906. Moreover, at the time when the Commission might have met for the purpose of winding up its work, attention was directed towards the conclusion of a further Franco-Siamese boundary treaty, the Treaty of 23 March 1907.

The final stage of the delimitation was the preparation of maps. The Siamese Government, which did not dispose of adequate technical means, had requested that French officers should map the frontier region. These maps were completed in the autumn of 1907 by a team of French officers, some of whom had been members of the Mixed Commission, and they were communicated to the Siamese Government in 1908. Amongst them was a map of the Dangrek range showing Preah Vihear on the Cambodian side. It was on that map (filed as Annex I to its Memorial) that Cambodia had principally relied in support of her claim to sovereignty over the Temple. Thailand, on the other hand, had contended that the map, not being the work of the Mixed Commission, had no binding character; that the frontier indicated on it was not the true watershed line and that the true watershed line would place the Temple in Thailand, that the map had never been accepted by Thailand or, alternatively, that if Thailand had accepted it she had done so only because of a mistaken belief that the frontier indicated corresponded with the watershed line.

The Annex I map was never formally approved by the Mixed Commission, which had ceased to function some months before its production. While there could be no reasonable doubt that it was based on the work of the surveying officers in the Dangrek sector, the Court nevertheless concluded that, in its inception, it had no binding character. It was clear from the record, however, that the maps were communicated to the Siamese Government as purporting to represent the outcome of the work of delimitation; since there was no reaction on the part of the Siamese authorities, either then or for many years, they must be held to have acquiesced. The maps were moreover communicated to the Siamese members of the Mixed Commission, who said nothing. to the Siamese Minister of the Interior, Prince Damrong, who thanked the French Minister in Bangkok for them, and to the Siamese provincial governors, some of whom knew of Preah Vihear. If the Siamese authorities accepted the Annex I map without investigation, they could not now plead any error vitiating the reality of their consent.

The Siamese Government and later the Thai Government had raised no query about the Annex I map prior to its negotiations with Cambodia in Bangkok in 1958. But in 1934-1935 a survey had established a divergence between the map line and the true line of the watershed, and other maps had been produced showing the Temple as being in Thailand: Thailand had nevertheless continued also to use and indeed to publish maps showing Preah Vihear as lying in Cambodia. Moreover, in the course of the negotiations for the 1925 and 1937 Franco-Siamese Treaties, which confirmed the existing frontiers, and in 1947 in Washington before the Franco-Siamese Conciliation Commission, it would have been natural for Thailand to raise the matter: she did not do so. The natural inference was that she had accepted the frontier at Preah Vihear as it was drawn on the map, irrespective of its correspondence with the watershed line. Thailand had stated that having been, at all material times, in possession of Preah Vihear, she had had no need to raise the matter; she had indeed instanced the acts of her administrative authorities on the ground as evidence that she had never accepted the Annex I line at Preah Vihear. But the Court found it difficult to regard such local acts as negativing the consistent attitude of the central authorities. Moreover, when in 1930 Prince Damrong, on a visit to the Temple, was officially received there by the French Resident for the adjoining Cambodian province, Siam failed to react.

From these facts, the court concluded that Thailand had accepted the Annex I map. Even if there were any doubt in this connection, Thailand was not precluded from asserting that she had not accepted it since France and Cambodia had relied upon her acceptance and she had for fifty years enjoyed such benefits as the Treaty of 1904 has conferred on her. Furthermore, the acceptance of the Annex I map caused it to enter the treaty settlement; the Parties had at that time adopted an interpretation of that settlement which caused the map line to prevail over the provisions of the Treaty and, as there was no reason to think that the Parties had attached any special importance to the line of the watershed as such, as compared with the overriding importance of a final regulation of their own frontiers, the Court considered that the interpretation to be given now would be the same.

The Court therefore felt bound to pronounce in favour of the frontier indicated on the Annex I map in the disputed area and it became unnecessary to consider whether the line as mapped did in fact correspond to the true watershed line.

For these reasons, the Court upheld the submissions of Cambodia concerning sovereignty over Preah Vihear.

The ruling of the court CLEARLY makes the Annex 1 map as "official", which thereby makes the borderline drawn on it as official as well. Why that is so Freaking hard for people to understand is beyond me.

Do a little research and you'll find that not only did Thailand accept the map at the time, but they asked the French for copies. 50 copies of each map were made by the French and delivered to Siam, when then distributed the maps to government officials throughout Thailand. Thailand then had 50 years to dispute the "line on the map", on more than one occasion, but never bothered to do so until Cambodia applied for World Heritage Status of the temple. THAT's when they suddenly say: "Oh, wait, we don't accept that map". Sorry, too late to close the barn door because the horses have already left.

I love Thailand & her people, but they should forget about this stupid temple and do something positive about the violence in the south if they REALLY want to make this country better. Arguing over nationalistic stupidity, especially when you know deep down inside you're wrong, while people are being killed on a daily basis in the south, with little to nothing being done about it, is a national shame.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Just1Voice

[whybother]

<snip>

The Court therefore felt bound to pronounce in favour of the frontier indicated on the Annex I map in the disputed area and it became unnecessary to consider whether the line as mapped did in fact correspond to the true watershed line.

For these reasons, the Court upheld the submissions of Cambodia concerning sovereignty over Preah Vihear.

The ruling of the court CLEARLY makes the Annex 1 map as "official", which thereby makes the borderline drawn on it as official as well. Why that is so Freaking hard for people to understand is beyond me.

Do a little research and you'll find that not only did Thailand accept the map at the time, but they asked the French for copies. 50 copies of each map were made by the French and delivered to Siam, when then distributed the maps to government officials throughout Thailand. Thailand then had 50 years to dispute the "line on the map", on more than one occasion, but never bothered to do so until Cambodia applied for World Heritage Status of the temple. THAT's when they suddenly say: "Oh, wait, we don't accept that map". Sorry, too late to close the barn door because the horses have already left.

I love Thailand & her people, but they should forget about this stupid temple and do something positive about the violence in the south if they REALLY want to make this country better. Arguing over nationalistic stupidity, especially when you know deep down inside you're wrong, while people are being killed on a daily basis in the south, with little to nothing being done about it, is a national shame.

I am not denying that Thailand accepted (or at least didn't officially complain about) the Annex 1 map.

But the court only made one ruling. It used the map as a reason for it's ruling.

"For these reasons, the Court upheld the submissions of Cambodia concerning sovereignty over Preah Vihear."

The rest of the land is still in dispute.

They showed that they didn't accept the map by the fact that they basically occupied the area until 1962. They also showed that they didn't accept the map since the ICJ ruling, as they have been calling it disputed land since that time. The heritage listing became an issue because the area around the temple is still in dispute.

Edited February 15, 2011 by whybother

[Buchholz]

The ruling of the court CLEARLY makes the Annex 1 map as "official", which thereby makes the borderline drawn on it as official as well. Why that is so Freaking hard for people to understand is beyond me.

Perhaps a letter-writing campaign to all the international media news outlets is in order to help them understand the erroneous ways of so many of their news reports.

[rammis35]

5th PAD Armoured Division preparing itself for Operation Baanok Blitkrieg.

I can see the PAD Medical vehicle in the background also...

[PeterGriffin]

what a wonderful gesture!

[Skywalker69]

Chamlong is one of the greatest cowards in Thai history. The suggestion is a great one, and the Thai army commander is to be praised for calling a spade a spade. He is basically calling out the PAD, as being incendiary, and the cause of inciting this problem. Which few people who are willing to face the truth, could deny. This army commander is level headed, and exactly what Thailand needs. This war is much ado about nothing. The world knows that. Hun Sen is playing Abhisit like a top. Kasit is completely out of his depth and element. Hun Sen will continue lobbying the NGO's, who provide him with much of his fortune, the UN, and anyone willing to listen to this fool. Abhisit has not come up with a single good idea yet, to address this conflict. Amazing. And I thought he was a brilliant man.

Brilliant man surrounded by fools???

[Bagwan]

Just how many tourists would want to see the ruins of a temple in the back of beyond? On the occasions of visiting Phanom Rung there have been less than 20 sightseers each time and I was the only farang a couple of times. There are plenty of other ruined temples in Thailand situated closer to beaten tracks so why all the fuss about this one?

BTW I came across reference to Phanom Rung in a toursit guide site. They described the place as the ruins of a Cambodian temple. I hope that doesn't kick off another pointless bun fight.

[bifftastic]

PAD do what they do best to express their concerns. The Army General, on the other hand just repeated his boss'es words daring PAD to fight at the border. Now that's the Army jobs, which have yet to meet the people's expectation, both at the east. and in the south. Be a man, General! Give us the long overdue answer why the Army lets the Khmer advances on the land around the Pra Viharn Shrine while barring the Thai from the area.

Without wishing to speak for the General, I would imagine he lets the Cambodians advance on the land around the shrine in order to avoid anyone being killed. He only has authority over Thai nationals in the area, so prevents them from entering for the same reason.

When politicians finish talking it's soldiers and civilians who bear the brunt of their rhetoric. Border skirmish, incursion, war, whatever you want to call it, people get killed and maimed over which flag is flying over a piece of land. Be a man? Send people to their deaths, that's what you call being a man is it? Maybe you've never been shot at before, but it's all very easy to puff your chest out when the bullets are not flying towards you.

[DP25]

Why couldn't Cambodia figure a way to get a gondola constructed, from their property below - up to the temple? Similar cable transports have been built elsewhere. The technology isn't that tough, is it?

Seems like a big investment for country that got their first escalator a few years ago. This place is not on the same scale as Angkor, hard to see it attracting many visitors

[meelousee]

Humm calling their bluff?

A dangerous call, they could with little effort start a full blown border war.

[diehard60]

It begins to smell bad.

PAD could tells "OK, we go"

The Commander is "playing with fire".

The Yellow shirts have guns anyway, so what is the big deal? Everyone WAS saying the reds are bad but who is really bad now and before?

5555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555

[Buchholz]

It begins to smell bad.

PAD could tells "OK, we go"

The Commander is "playing with fire".

The Yellow shirts have guns anyway, so what is the big deal? Everyone WAS saying the reds are bad but who is really bad now and before?

The Red Shirt violence predates anything from PAD, going back to July 2007.

Over that time, the Red Shirts have easily surpassed PAD in both the number of violent incidents and the level of violence.

[geriatrickid]

The ruling of the court CLEARLY makes the Annex 1 map as "official", which thereby makes the borderline drawn on it as official as well. Why that is so Freaking hard for people to understand is beyond me.

Perhaps a letter-writing campaign to all the international media news outlets is in order to help them understand the erroneous ways of so many of their news reports.

What one sees in the news reports is typical of journalism today: One person writes an article and some of the main points are repeated by other journalists as "fact". A recent example was the death of the Swede in the Patong Condo. One local newspaper made a statement about bloody footprints and murder and others picked up on it relying on the original story as fact. The first paper retracted its story and said it had erred. None of the other papers that relied on the story went back to correct their reports.

[mca]

" PADKRIEG BOP "

( with sincere apologies to The Ramones )

Hey ho let's go!

Hey ho let's go!

Hey ho let's go!

Hey ho let's go!

They're stirring it in Thailand

They don't really have a plan

But they don't give a dam_n

Padkrieg Bop

They saw Thaksin took a hit

Now they're after Abhisit

They're nuttier than squirrel shit

Padkrieg Bop

Hey ho, let's go

Get your clackers out now

What does Chamlong want

War with the foe

And he's all scootered up and ready to go

They're stirring it in Thailand

They don't really have a plan

But they don't give a dam_n

Padkrieg Bop

Hey ho let's go!

Hey ho let's go!

Hey ho let's go!

Hey ho let's go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7FdJajqxmU

Edited February 16, 2011 by mca

[animatic]

As someone once said "When the rich make war, the poor die." I don't think the PAD is prepared to die.

Ideologues lead from the rear. Heros lead from the front.

[Asa]

ICJ resolution said Pra Viharn Shrine and its vicinity is Cambodian , The Thai accept it. But where the border line lays (including the said vicinity) is still in dispute as both countries agree to have the joint committee set up to define it. Therefore, both countries should refrain from settle in the area until the border line is drawn. At that is where the armed forces should do their duty not to let the Khmer getting into the area from the start. They sit upon it, and did not do that. When PAD rally against Authority handling the case, this darn General challenged the people to go fight the Khmer themselves. This is a shame. Like a boxer who no longer have the gut to fight turn to the fan and challenge them to get in the ring instead.

[Buchholz]

The ruling of the court CLEARLY makes the Annex 1 map as "official", which thereby makes the borderline drawn on it as official as well. Why that is so Freaking hard for people to understand is beyond me.

Perhaps a letter-writing campaign to all the international media news outlets is in order to help them understand the erroneous ways of so many of their news reports.

What one sees in the news reports is typical of journalism today: One person writes an article and some of the main points are repeated by other journalists as "fact". A recent example was the death of the Swede in the Patong Condo. One local newspaper made a statement about bloody footprints and murder and others picked up on it relying on the original story as fact. The first paper retracted its story and said it had erred. None of the other papers that relied on the story went back to correct their reports.

Apples = Phuket Gazette

Oranges =

DPA

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Xinhua

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Reuters

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AFP

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