Australian Tourist Visa Scam

[tim armstrong]

Thanks for all the replies, some good info. To answer some questions - the request for money was definitely 'under the table'. My Thai friend just assumed that it was normal practice, as it well may be if she was going to a Thai official for something, especially as she is in business herself.

I didn't know it was the same company as used by the UK, - that's a worry from what I have heard.

As a company contracted to process applications, they don't actually approve them,as I understand that is still done by the Embassy.

The person asking for the bribe is not an employee of the Embassy,but rather the company. But as suggested I have recommended that my friend and her boyfriend go to the Oz Embassy and complain. Unfortunately Thais are a bit reluctant to take on this type of action, but I hope her boyfriend will. If you do the maths this is a good potential money earner. If something eventuates I'll let you know. Regards

[Artfullmover]

A few years ago we had a simular problem with one of the couriers services. They tried hitting my wifes mother up for quite a bit more than what they should have being charging. I was furious and reported them to both the Australain Embasy and DIMA via E-Mail. They took the matter seriously and contacted my mother in law for futher information. Although they are no longer listed as a courier company I regret reporting them as they had the mother in laws details and told her something along the lines "you have made a big mistake and you are in big trouble". to most of us that is not considered much to worry about but it did hit home in Thailand. The Mother was in tears and and afraid to the extent my wife was having panick attacks.The family were on edge for quite a while. At the end of the day I felt pretty bad and realised thing are done differntly in Thailand.In Hindsight I would have been happy to pay the extra rather than create all the stress I did.

I would like to add a friend has been bringing out a lady on Visitors visa and he says he has been handing a "bit under the Table" He believes that the way to get things done or moving in the right direction for most things.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Artfullmover

[tim armstrong]

A few years ago we had a simular problem with one of the couriers services. They tried hitting my wifes mother up for quite a bit more than what they should have being charging. I was furious and reported them to both the Australain Embasy and DIMA via E-Mail. They took the matter seriously and contacted my mother in law for futher information. Although they are no longer listed as a courier company I regret reporting them as they had the mother in laws details and told her something along the lines "you have made a big mistake and you are in big trouble". to most of us that is not considered much to worry about but it did hit home in Thailand. The Mother was in tears and and afraid to the extent my wife was having panick attacks.The family were on edge for quite a while. At the end of the day I felt pretty bad and realised thing are done differntly in Thailand.In Hindsight I would have been happy to pay the extra rather than create all the stress I did.

I would like to add a friend has been bringing out a lady on Visitors visa and he says he has been handing a "bit under the Table" He believes that the way to get things done or moving in the right direction for most things.

Yes, Thailand or not, corruption is bad anywhere, but yes again, I have paid the police here for arguable traffic offenses.

The UK example I have heard about more than once, apparently involves the same company. Another good friend - English,well off, wanted to take his Thai girfriend for a holiday to the UK. She completed the application on her own behalf without him as guarantor, as she owns an apartment building, has a travel agency,speaks perfect English, travels a lot and is wealthy already. Not enough said the company and refused the application - twice. It was not clear whether/not the application got to the UK Embassy or not. But what was clear is that the application fee, then 3,000 baht, is non-refundable. Others have told me that first time applications to the UK even for tourist visas have a high rate of refusal. But other posters may wish to comment.

[VisasPlus]

I have been following this post from a distance. However, I think it's about time to add something. Firstly, VFS is a processing service only. They check that the VAF is complete and that the documents are in place. You pay your money, and that's it. They are not in a position to speed up an application or influence a decision. I speak from a position of experience as I have been involved in some areas of training for VFS.

When you pay a fee at VFS you receive a receipt. The application is then, along with all other applications from that day, sent to the Embassy by secure means. On arrival at the Embassy the applications are logged in by date and type, and then wait in a "queue" for an ECO to process them. They are dealt with in order of receipt. It is not possible to move an application forward as they are logged into the system, firstly at VFS and then at the Embassy. Also, let's face it, the waiting time for processing a visit visa is not exactly a long one. At the British Embassy it is currently 2/3 days, and I think the Australian Embassy is a week at maximum. How much would you expect this process to be speeded up by paying an extra fee ?

I have no doubt that people are asked for money for various things ( but it does sound more like the scam perpetrated by the "agencies" that work in the same buildings as the VFS offices, rather than VFS itself ). However, I find the example quoted by tim armstrong hard to accept. VFS cannot refuse an application. They can inform you that more documentation may be needed, but they do not take any fee for that. Your application is then returned to you without any fee being paid ( you can return to the bank with the receipt for your payment and get a refund). If VFS took the fee - the bank cheque -( now 3,500 Bath approx) then a receipt for the application would have been issued. If a receipt was issued then the application would have gone to the Embassy and decision would have been made by an ECO. If a receipt was issued for the 3,000 baht bank cheques ( on two occasions) then there is an audit trail, and a complaint should be made. If, as claimed, 3,000 Baht was taken from the applicant on two separate occasions, and no receipt was issued, then I have my doubts about the story. Let's remember that this is not cash that is handed over to VFS - it is a bank cheque. In any case, if you believe the story, you should report this to the visa section at the Embassy ( both the Austarlian Embassy and the British Embassy).

Edited February 19, 2011 by VisasPlus

[jazzbo]

Some of my earlier posts on this topic were partially in jest but NOT to the extent that one may wish to have some hard evidence before making any formal complaint against a company, service, or individual... The laws are structured in Thailand such that it is much easier to prove libel or defamation of character than it is to prove solicitation of a bribe.

[7by7]

Regular readers of this forum will be aware that several similar topics have been started by persons feeling that they have been the victim of similar malpractice or scams at the UK Visa Application Centre in Regents House.

In every case it has turned out that the people involved had never actually made it to the UKVAC but had been accosted by unscrupulous visa agents operating in the same building.

In every case it turned out that all the requests for extra money and promises of special service had been made by these agents, not by VFS staff in the UKVAC.

My initial reaction is that reports of malpractice at the Australian VAC will, if looked at closely, result in a similar outcome; that people have been fooled by an unscrupulous agent and not spoken to VFS staff at all.

However, I may be wrong.

If I am, and it is actually VFS staff that are asking for these extra payments and promising special treatment, then as said before they must be reported to both VFS and the embassy.

Comments that this is the way things are done in Thailand, whether true or not, are not relevant. One is not dealing with Thai officials, one is dealing with the Australian government.

Complaints of this nature will be taken very seriously by both VFS and the Australian embassy; but if people simply sit back and say this is the way things are done in Thailand then nothing will happen.

[7by7]

The UK example I have heard about more than once, apparently involves the same company. Another good friend - English,well off, wanted to take his Thai girfriend for a holiday to the UK. She completed the application on her own behalf without him as guarantor, as she owns an apartment building, has a travel agency,speaks perfect English, travels a lot and is wealthy already. Not enough said the company and refused the application - twice. It was not clear whether/not the application got to the UK Embassy or not. But what was clear is that the application fee, then 3,000 baht, is non-refundable

VP has provided an excellent explanation of the system; but I'd like to comment too.

Not only did the application not get to the embassy, it sounds as if it didn't even get to the UKVAC! See the first three paragraphs of my above post.

The UKVAC play no part in the decision making process.

They can advise if any documents are missing; but this is the only advice they can give. They cannot advise on the quality of an application or the documents included. The applicant does not have to follow their advice and the VAC must forward the application to the embassy if the applicant instructs them to do so.

Any advice to withdraw the application due to missing documents is made before any visa or other fee is paid. Yes, if the application is withdrawn then the visa fee will not be refunded; because at this stage no fee has yet been paid!

From what VP says, it would appear that the Australian VAC is the same.

Others have told me that first time applications to the UK even for tourist visas have a high rate of refusal

These others are wrong.

Reading posts on here from those sponsoring first time UK visitors will show that there is a high success rate; although these are only a small proportion of all applications, of course.

The official figures show that in 2008/09 91% of general visit visa applications made in Bangkok were successful (see page 52 of this document. The UKBA have changed the way they publish these figures, and I have been unable to find country specific figures for 2009/10, if they have been published yet.) Any argument that out of the 31,015 general visit applications received the majority were from second or subsequent time applicants is, of course, ridiculous.

If you look through that document you will see that other categories have similarly high success rates.

[Bluetongue]

I am not Australian but as VHS Global also handles visa applications for the UK I am most concerned this practice will spread and hope it is stopped immediately.

VHS Global as I understand is a international company that is an off shut of Kuoni a Swiss travel company, what concerns me most is it seems to hold a monopoly on this sort of service with many countries now out sourcing to it and without viable competition respectable governments will not have the option to take their business elsewhere.

Sorry maybe a bit off topic but...

What I would like to know is why the governments are outsourcing in the first place. Not enough staff at the Embassies???

1.They are supposed to be saving costs after the financial crisis - surely engaging this company is an extra cost.

2. What about security of personal information ? Which used to go only to your government now being in the hands of outsiders.

3. In countries like Thailand where privacy/corruption/scams can and do occur why would home governments even dream of outsourcing? No doubt some consultant has also been paid afortune to come up with this one..

My own personal experience with VFS, fine, but I did accompany my wife. The security staff started questioning my wife in Thai before we even got through the door, I suspect this is an unoffical filtering process, although very Thai style.

To answer these specific questions;

1. The cost of engaging VFS to process applications would be more than offset by employing less staff at the Embassy. There must be thousands of these applications every month, after all there are umpteen flights to Australia every day and a lot of Thais on them. The two categories of staff involved would be Australian Public Servants (APS) and locally engaged staff (LES). An APS member has to be housed and allowanced to live in Bangkok, someone on a base rate of 80k in Australia would cost at least twice that much. LES also have generous conditions enshrined in Australian industrial agreements. VFS on the other hand have to pay their staff to be able to speak read and write English, whatever that rate is, considerably less I imagine.

2. The security of personal information would be enshrined in words in the contract, this is no guarantee if a staff member is acting improperly.

3. Yes the consultant would almost certainly be a an ex DFAT employee at a senior level. As DFAT is a closed shop to most ordinary mortals these are the only people with credentials to carry out a consultancy.

My personal opinion; the person the OP refers to was the victim of a rogue staff member or a scammer operating in the building, as other posters have referred to. Whilst any alleged criminal activity is obviously a very serious issue it would be very hard to prove or even pursue.

The process used to engage the company might be where the serious crime occurred. You could never find out unless there was a whistleblower though because any documents associated would be classified Commercial-In-Confidence and even a Freedom Of Information Request would not be successful. In any case the documents would reveal or prove nothing, the crime would have occurred in the conversations between senior bureaucrats and the company before the tender process was even advertised. They would then go through a process and get the Minister to sign off. If you were lucky he might have read the summary, though most likely his Chief of Staff or another minion did so for him. I dont see any point in deterring or sidelining or delaying applications, the contract probably is a rate per application.

There is a feeling on this post that somehow the Australian Government is sacrosanct and that complaints would be seriously treated, they are masters at dealing with complaint processes, dont bother.

[ProThaiExpat]

Having been involved with Australian Vistor Visas for ten years, I can report that in the days before VFS, a visit to the Australian Embassy to get a visa involved substantial security issues for the Embassy, what with the constant stream of unknown persons coming and going in the Embassy to get visas or trying to.

All of the staff I encountered during my Embassy visits to the visa section were what appeared to be local hire Thais. Thus I doubt that wage savings were responsible for the move of the public portion of the visa process to VFS. I guess it was because of security concerns and the cost in maintaining it on the Embassy grounds itself. Perhaps crowding on the Embassy grounds might also have been a reason for outsourcing the public portion of the visa process. In any case, many local hire Thais are still employed in the Embassy to process visa applications so again improved security or space needs at the Embassy were probably the reason for outsourcing rather that expense savings.

Edited February 19, 2011 by ProThaiExpat

[whybother]

Slightly OT. I went to a presentation by the manager of Immigration and Citizenship at the Australian Embassy at the start of the month.

He said that less than 5% of visitor visa are denied, and less than 1% of business (visitor) visas are denied.

[VisasPlus]

There are various reasons why the application process is outsourced. They include better use of resources for the Embassy - not dealing with cash, no auditing, etc - plus there are less people in and out of the Embassy, of course, giving better security.

There are, I think, only two companies worldwide that do the processing, VFS and WorldBridge. In Thailand it is VFS who have got the contracts for most, if not all, of the Embassies that outsource. In Thailand, where there are around 60,000 visa applications at the British Embassy a year, the operation pulls in around 1 Million $ a year for VFS. Then there are the other Embassies that they service here. VFS then have their outgoings, of course

[tim armstrong]

There are various reasons why the application process is outsourced. They include better use of resources for the Embassy - not dealing with cash, no auditing, etc - plus there are less people in and out of the Embassy, of course, giving better security.

There are, I think, only two companies worldwide that do the processing, VFS and WorldBridge. In Thailand it is VFS who have got the contracts for most, if not all, of the Embassies that outsource. In Thailand, where there are around 60,000 visa applications at the British Embassy a year, the operation pulls in around 1 Million $ a year for VFS. Then there are the other Embassies that they service here. VFS then have their outgoings, of course

Thanks for the informative emails. Both the people I originally mentioned have pursued their cases further. Incidentally, the detail I gave was correct. In both cases their applications were accepted into the system. Regarding this post, I can only say wow! 2 companies worldwide! What a great business.

[7by7]

I cannot comment any further on the Australian case as I do not know their system.

However, as far as the UK one is concerned, as said previously the 'company' (i.e. VFS) are not involved in the decision making process.

If your friend's applications were 'accepted into the system' then she would have been given an official receipt for the application and the decision to refuse would have been taken by an Entry Clearance Officer at the British embassy. If refused then she would have been given a written refusal notice detailing the reasons for the refusal.

Obviously it is impossible to comment on those reasons without knowing what the notice says.

[Berek]

The security staff started questioning my wife in Thai before we even got through the door, I suspect this is an unoffical filtering process, although very Thai style.

At vfs-au the security are INSIDE the door and they let you in once you approach. No other way to speak to them unless you're inside....

They talk to thai's in thai not english. It's what thai people do...

There are two lines to get in to see someone. Each has a sign in book which every person has to fill in no matter what the nationality. They have to ascertain what your purpose is for you to sign the correct book and get the correct desk number.

Nothing sinister about it

[Spoonman]

I would be more than happy to slip someone some bahts to ensure the visa is approved.

[kkerry]

Let's remember that this is not cash that is handed over to VFS - it is a bank cheque. In any case, if you believe the story, you should report this to the visa section at the Embassy ( both the Austarlian Embassy and the British Embassy).

You can pay cash at the VFS Australia office, my wife did so late last year.

[gburns57au]

Let's remember that this is not cash that is handed over to VFS - it is a bank cheque. In any case, if you believe the story, you should report this to the visa section at the Embassy ( both the Austarlian Embassy and the British Embassy).

You can pay cash at the VFS Australia office, my wife did so late last year.

The visa application fee is paid by bank cheque....The VFS fee is paid in cash

[Bluetongue]

The security staff started questioning my wife in Thai before we even got through the door, I suspect this is an unoffical filtering process, although very Thai style.

At vfs-au the security are INSIDE the door and they let you in once you approach. No other way to speak to them unless you're inside....

They talk to thai's in thai not english. It's what thai people do...

There are two lines to get in to see someone. Each has a sign in book which every person has to fill in no matter what the nationality. They have to ascertain what your purpose is for you to sign the correct book and get the correct desk number.

Nothing sinister about it

I agree nothing sinister about it and thats what Thai people do, but the end result is often the spread of incorrect information or incorrect interpretations of information, not only in visa activity but right across Thai life. How many times have I been told through my Thai family, friends, associates, acquaintances, bystanders that something is impossible etc and then or later found the reverse to be true. I haven't counted, but lots.

As far as whether they are inside the door or not, in my view its a close run thing. The setup for receiving customers is extremely poor in my opinion for a company making so much money out of it. People milling about with the door open etc.

[kkerry]

Let's remember that this is not cash that is handed over to VFS - it is a bank cheque. In any case, if you believe the story, you should report this to the visa section at the Embassy ( both the Austarlian Embassy and the British Embassy).

You can pay cash at the VFS Australia office, my wife did so late last year.

The visa application fee is paid by bank cheque....The VFS fee is paid in cash

I don't know if we are talking about different things here but last year when my wife applied in person at the VFS office for a tourist visa to Australia we did not pay by bank cheque. Never went near a bank, haven't paid by bank cheque for anything for a few years. All visa fees, courier delivery charge etc. covered in one cash payment, receipt issued.

Just to be clear, in paying with cash we weren't asked for any special service fees so I am not alleging corruption at the VFS office.

As mentioned, security staff are inside the door.

[VisasPlus]

Let's remember that this is not cash that is handed over to VFS - it is a bank cheque. In any case, if you believe the story, you should report this to the visa section at the Embassy ( both the Austarlian Embassy and the British Embassy).

You can pay cash at the VFS Australia office, my wife did so late last year.

The visa application fee is paid by bank cheque....The VFS fee is paid in cash

I don't know if we are talking about different things here but last year when my wife applied in person at the VFS office for a tourist visa to Australia we did not pay by bank cheque. Never went near a bank, haven't paid by bank cheque for anything for a few years. All visa fees, courier delivery charge etc. covered in one cash payment, receipt issued.

Just to be clear, in paying with cash we weren't asked for any special service fees so I am not alleging corruption at the VFS office.

As mentioned, security staff are inside the door.

IT seems that the VFS offices for UK and Australia have different procedures. For UK you pay the visa fee at the bank in Regent House, and give the bank " cheque" to VFS with the appication. There is no separate VFS fee as there seems to be with the Australian system. I think VFS charge 500 Baht for " processing " for Australian visas ?

Edited February 21, 2011 by 7by7
Reply moved out of quote box.