Jingthing Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Sorry Jing, when the majority are similar in appearance you are not dealing with racism ... !!!???!!! I am sorry, but there is no doubt in my mind that people of very similar appearance can be very, very racist to each other. If you seriously don't understand that, ask some Israelis and Palestinians or even more extreme, ask some Hutu and Tutsi from Rwanda. Edited February 24, 2011 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Sorry Jing, when the majority are similar in appearance you are not dealing with racism ... !!!???!!! I am sorry, but there is no doubt in my mind that people of very similar appearance can be very, very racist to each other. If you seriously don't understand that, ask some Israelis and Palestinians or even more extreme, ask some Hutu and Tutsi from Rwanda. Not racism in any case that you mentioned ... strictly ethnic issues. Ethnic fighting and civil wars always tend to be the bloodiest. It just doesn't fall under the label "race." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSnapper Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Sorry Jing, when the majority are similar in appearance you are not dealing with racism ... !!!???!!! I am sorry, but there is no doubt in my mind that people of very similar appearance can be very, very racist to each other. If you seriously don't understand that, ask some Israelis and Palestinians or even more extreme, ask some Hutu and Tutsi from Rwanda. It's not racism, they just see whiter skin as more beautiful. Why does the PC crowd here believe they must reengineer the Thais? Thais preferences are the same as in the whole of Asia. From Japan to Indonesia. Just accept the reality as it is. No one here needs your Western ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonrakers Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Sorry Jing, when the majority are similar in appearance you are not dealing with racism ... !!!???!!! I am sorry, but there is no doubt in my mind that people of very similar appearance can be very, very racist to each other. If you seriously don't understand that, ask some Israelis and Palestinians or even more extreme, ask some Hutu and Tutsi from Rwanda. It's not racism, they just see whiter skin as more beautiful. Why does the PC crowd here believe they must reengineer the Thais? Thais preferences are the same as in the whole of Asia. From Japan to Indonesia. Just accept the reality as it is. No one here needs your Western ideology. So you are trying to suggest that because it is in Thailand/Asia, then it is OK? And what about the fact that the Thai's themselves have been complaining in numbers themselves about the ad, to the point where the ad has been (or will be) removed. How does that fit into your argument? Edited February 24, 2011 by Moonrakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregb Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Sorry Jing, when the majority are similar in appearance you are not dealing with racism ... !!!???!!! I am sorry, but there is no doubt in my mind that people of very similar appearance can be very, very racist to each other. If you seriously don't understand that, ask some Israelis and Palestinians or even more extreme, ask some Hutu and Tutsi from Rwanda. It's not racism, they just see whiter skin as more beautiful. Why does the PC crowd here believe they must reengineer the Thais? Thais preferences are the same as in the whole of Asia. From Japan to Indonesia. Just accept the reality as it is. No one here needs your Western ideology. I happen to like women with small waists and large breasts. I suppose contemporary culture and the media has contributed to my preferences, much as it has with the Thai preference for white skin. Am I a racist? I don't feel I am racist against other types of women. I don't disparage them. And I don't think most Thais actively disparage dark skinned people either. They simply don't prefer them. And I think that is the difference. Racism requires the hate of a group with a specific characteristic. Just preferring one characteristic over another does not rise to this definition. It is also important to understand that "racism" by definition can not be applied to those who share the same phenotypical characteristics. Instead, that is plain and simple tribalism. For instance, if I hate people of your religion, I am not racist. I am certainly evil and discriminate unfairly against you, but if you share the same observable characteristics as myself, then I am by definition not basing my hatred on race. (Race is not the same as species by the way. A species is objectively defined by the ability to interbreed. Race is simply a subjective classification of members of that species into a broad group based on physically observable characteristics. Thus, different observers may define "race" using different criteria.) Tribalism is as old as the human species itself, and no region anywhere in the world is free of its influences. It is an innate biological preservation mechanism designed to make sure that those of your clan survive so they can propagate themselves. Sadly, our biological evolution has not kept up our moral proclivities. The advertising agency who thought up this ad was clearly insensitive and did not stop to consider how it would affect some of the Thai public who feel insecure about their appearance. An honest company would apologize for any offense, and immediately cancel the campaign. Sadly, I don't think any Thai company would ever do this. But hopefully, advertising agencies in the future will think before doing something so shameful. Edited February 24, 2011 by gregb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Sorry Jing, when the majority are similar in appearance you are not dealing with racism ... !!!???!!! I am sorry, but there is no doubt in my mind that people of very similar appearance can be very, very racist to each other. If you seriously don't understand that, ask some Israelis and Palestinians or even more extreme, ask some Hutu and Tutsi from Rwanda. Not racism in any case that you mentioned ... strictly ethnic issues. Ethnic fighting and civil wars always tend to be the bloodiest. It just doesn't fall under the label "race." It most certainly DOES fall under race (in the sense of how social groups define race, not the actually biology of it which doesn't actually exist); we'll have to agree to disagree as you can't ever convince me about this one. Another example, the Kurds vs. the Turks. Ethnic, schmethnic, both sides SEE race. Israelis vs. Arabs, you seriously don't think many on each side don't see race in the opposing side? These ethnic/race things overlap, A LOT. Edited February 24, 2011 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Racism requires the hate of a group with a specific characteristic. Not true. In some racist societies, just being something absurd like 1/16 of a certain "race" makes you defined as that "race" (even without having any typical physical characteristic of that race at all) and to suffer all the social consequences of being that "race" which sometimes means being murdered. There is no doubt race is a very complicated social construct so that's why it really is a bear to even talk about it. But people should. That's because racism probably exists in all human societies but the specific forms it takes vary massively between them. Edited February 24, 2011 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mca Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I happen to like women with small waists and large breasts. A famed anthropologist sums it up for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nocturn Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 When disaster hit Haiti Thailand pledged a few million. As can be expected this was not forthcoming and pledges9 which mean very little) can be in goods which equal value. So, what was sent?, million's of ( outdated) skin whitener cream! i would be alot more likely to believe this if you would substantiate it. Source please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 It didn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilgore Trout Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Sorry Jing, when the majority are similar in appearance you are not dealing with racism ... !!!???!!! I am sorry, but there is no doubt in my mind that people of very similar appearance can be very, very racist to each other. If you seriously don't understand that, ask some Israelis and Palestinians or even more extreme, ask some Hutu and Tutsi from Rwanda. Not racism in any case that you mentioned ... strictly ethnic issues. Ethnic fighting and civil wars always tend to be the bloodiest. It just doesn't fall under the label "race." Israelis and palestinians are both "semitic," so of the same race; biblically both descended from Abraham, cousins if you will just like Thais and Laotians. :jap: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mca Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 When disaster hit Haiti Thailand pledged a few million. As can be expected this was not forthcoming and pledges9 which mean very little) can be in goods which equal value. So, what was sent?, million's of ( outdated) skin whitener cream! i would be alot more likely to believe this if you would substantiate it. Source please. It's taken from spoof website notthenation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaibruce Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Aside from TV members trading barbs about what is or isn't racism etc etc, has anyone thought to actually tell the people who produced the ad how they feel about it? Just a thought http://www.oishigroup.com/contactus.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bermondburi Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Someone asked what are the economic implications of racism. I don't have statistics for Thailand but in the US the net worth of white people is generally eight times that of black people, and that horrific race gap has gotten LARGER in recent years. Most of the wealth of white people is inherited and caused by living in real estate in more "desirable" white areas; in other words, not earned, but a result of being BORN into white privilege. Yes of course there are plenty of dirt poor white people; I am talking in generalizations. I see the same kind of thing in Thailand, darker skinned Thais with a greater probability of being in the underclass with no hope of rising up. People who say don't tink too much, I consider anti-intellectual Thai-ier than thou apologists. It's not a matter of PC or not PC, it's a matter of being conscious of what's going on. quote " I don't have statistics for Thailand ". well in that case you can't really go around making sweeping statements about the economic implications of various decisions in Thailand can you ? This is not the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bermondburi Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I guess you guys haven't seen the "light skinned only" employment ads. It's a complex thing here. Part of it is class based disdain for people who do hard work in the sun which explains why so many Thais cover up at the beach. Those adverts are not illegal in Thailand. But they bloody well should be. Along with the ads for female employees under 25. Diktet. but I don't want to be served by a minger, under twenty -five is okay with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petbon Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Paler skin was valued in Asian society long before whites were even seen by them, because it distinguished the wealthier from those working in the fields. Europeans blonde their hair so as to appear to be in that more elite/rarer group, though now they fake tan their skin to emulate the wealthy who have the dosh to winter to hotter climes. Has a lot to do with wanting to appear to identify with certain groups to which they aspire to be part of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkshire Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Paler skin was valued in Asian society long before whites were even seen by them, because it distinguished the wealthier from those working in the fields. Europeans blonde their hair so as to appear to be in that more elite/rarer group, though now they fake tan their skin to emulate the wealthy who have the dosh to winter to hotter climes. Has a lot to do with wanting to appear to identify with certain groups to which they aspire to be part of. Interesting points. Maybe the TV readership can answer this: what is the difference between a Thai using cream (or whatever) to change their skin color, and a farang sitting out in the sun to change their skin color. It would seem the latter is far unhealthier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermute Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Interesting points. Maybe the TV readership can answer this: what is the difference between a Thai using cream (or whatever) to change their skin color, and a farang sitting out in the sun to change their skin color. It would seem the latter is far unhealthier. There's no difference at all both are about emulating class. Some billionaire like Mark Cuban can afford to lay out in the sun tanning himself at his leisure on his private yacht. Your average American is too busy working 10+ hours a day with less than 10 days of vacation a year to do something like that so they emulate that through tanning booths. Race doesn't even figure into it. Thais have different categories of beauty between farang "white" and Asian "white" anyways. Farangs in an entirely different foreigner category and that's not what they idealize. The "white" that they like is the porcelain Korean/Japanese/Chinese type skin tones that the models have. Edited February 25, 2011 by wintermute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nocturn Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 When disaster hit Haiti Thailand pledged a few million. As can be expected this was not forthcoming and pledges9 which mean very little) can be in goods which equal value. So, what was sent?, million's of ( outdated) skin whitener cream! i would be alot more likely to believe this if you would substantiate it. Source please. It's taken from spoof website notthenation it truly amazes me how many people cannot see that "not the nation" is satire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Gads Jing... the idea that something is 'race' and not ethnicity is certainly anti-intellectual. When white people kill white people or black people kill black people over religion/tribal identity/ etc ... it is ethnic fighting NOT racial fighting. The ethnicity of the majority of Thais is Tai. Same language culture and religious groupings. The more specific cultural language grouping of people from Isaan is Lao linguistically. These are not separate races. Irish and Scots --- ethnic and nationality differences, not racial differences. Arab versus N. African becomes muddier in the race/ethnicity argument but that is neither here nor there. In Thailand it just is not racism no matter how you define it, if you are honest. It certainly does lend itself (as stated above by many others) as a class related thing. That being said, even the lighter skinned Thais use whitening cream and it isn't targetted at dark skinned people mostly. If someone wants to start a GOOD crusade .... start one that takes light-blue eye shadow off the market! Particularly in Thailand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 Well the truth of the matter, for all those people who think it's trivial or that Thais don't care. There is now over 600 posts on this topic on pantip alone, prompting Oishi to apologise on their face book page and vow to remove the advertisement ASAP. I mean these guys are pissed off, they were posting pictures of the bus that Rosa Parks had refused to sit in the back of. That one shocked even me, how cool is that http://www.pantip.com/cafe/woman/topic/Q10263211/Q10263211.html The crappy Google Thai-English Translation here: Thai to English translation Dear Customers, who have cared for you all. Marketing Communications Oishi. Sincerely apologize for the communication of brand products, amino Plus series, "tablets" in the train BTS. Set the communication. Not intended to refer any person in particular. However, we have to coordinate the relevant agencies. To accelerate the termination of emergency / demolition is already out. Marketing Communications We respectfully sincere thanks for all the suggestions and requests coming through pantip.com promise to use caution in making communication more next time. Thank you very much. Message oriented marketing department Oishi. Tuesday at 4:33 pm.</span> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 Gads Jing... the idea that something is 'race' and not ethnicity is certainly anti-intellectual. When white people kill white people or black people kill black people over religion/tribal identity/ etc ... it is ethnic fighting NOT racial fighting. The ethnicity of the majority of Thais is Tai. Same language culture and religious groupings. The more specific cultural language grouping of people from Isaan is Lao linguistically. These are not separate races. Irish and Scots --- ethnic and nationality differences, not racial differences. Arab versus N. African becomes muddier in the race/ethnicity argument but that is neither here nor there. In Thailand it just is not racism no matter how you define it, if you are honest. It certainly does lend itself (as stated above by many others) as a class related thing. That being said, even the lighter skinned Thais use whitening cream and it isn't targetted at dark skinned people mostly. If someone wants to start a GOOD crusade .... start one that takes light-blue eye shadow off the market! Particularly in Thailand! Hey hey be all about the whitening cream if you want too, but stay away from the blue eye-shadow! I own a brand of cosmetics and have the Thai agency for another, and both have great looking blue eye-shadow that sells well You and I can come to blows if you go after my eye-shadow! Tell me that don't look cute on her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payboy Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Marketing Communications Oishi. Sincerely apologize for the communication of brand products, amino Plus series, "tablets" in the train BTS. Set the communication. Not intended to refer any person in particular. However, we have to coordinate the relevant agencies. To accelerate the termination of emergency / demolition is already out. Marketing Communications We respectfully sincere thanks for all the suggestions and requests coming through pantip.com promise to use caution in making communication more next time. Does that mean my privileged seat on the skytrain is no longer guaranteed? Only this morning, I had to ask a pregnant Isaan woman to vacate the seat under the sign that she was so rebelliously ignoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) Sorry Jing, when the majority are similar in appearance you are not dealing with racism ... !!!???!!! I am sorry, but there is no doubt in my mind that people of very similar appearance can be very, very racist to each other. If you seriously don't understand that, ask some Israelis and Palestinians or even more extreme, ask some Hutu and Tutsi from Rwanda. Not racism in any case that you mentioned ... strictly ethnic issues. Ethnic fighting and civil wars always tend to be the bloodiest. It just doesn't fall under the label "race." Israelis and palestinians are both "semitic," so of the same race; biblically both descended from Abraham, cousins if you will just like Thais and Laotians. :jap: You are missing the point entirely. Race doesn't exist except in our heads. We are all the same race. Jews and Arabs are no more similar GENETICALLY than Eskimos and Armenians. The point is that people SEE race, so Jews and Arabs typically react to each other as being from different races. Edited February 25, 2011 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSnapper Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 You are missing the point entirely. Race doesn't exist except in our heads. We are all the same race. Jews and Arabs are no more similar GENETICALLY than Eskimos and Armenians. The point is that people SEE race, so Jews and Arabs typically react to each other as being from different races. Oh my god. And your next argument would probably be: "gender does not exist, it is all in our heads". The major problem in the Western world is ideological thinking. People are educated to see the reality as "it should be" by some "modern" PC standards, and not as it actually is. This thinking is derived from the communist movements in US and Europe from around 1960. Communism is mostly dead now, but the ideology is still deep in many people's minds. If the West does not correct this, it will finally fail. Asia is much advanced as PC and ideological ideas play a very minor role. They have learned from their past, remember Pol Pot or Mao Zedong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) No, I am talking scientifically. Not ideologically, and nothing to do with PC. Race doesn't exist. Racism does exist. A lot. I do realize this scientific TRUTH is new and radical to many people. It is my view that this particular truth has a lot of power to help societies heal themselves from the disease of racism, that sentiment may be political. On the other hand, anyone who thinks racism is a good thing isn't someone I mind offending politically. Edited February 25, 2011 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appropriate Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 what is the difference between a Thai using cream (or whatever) to change their skin color, and a farang sitting out in the sun to change their skin color. It would seem the latter is far unhealthier. Actually a lot of the skin whiteners contain bleaches and other quite nasty chemicals, which go pretty much unregulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonrakers Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Jingthing. You seem to be getting confused, of course different races exist. Caucasian, Hispanic, Negroid etc. are all different human races that are recognised by science. A different race does not have to mean a different species but different races definitely exist. And you guys arguing about race an ethnicity are wasting your time, the two are just so similar. They are basically the same with some minor technical differences. You had might as well be comparing oranges with satsumas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) I don't think I am confused by saying race as a biological construct DOES NOT exist. It does exist as a SOCIAL construct. I do think most people haven't kept current about modern anthropological science. http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm To wit -- Race is not biological, but racism is still real.Race has no genetic basis. In producing this series, we felt it was important to go back to first principles and ask, What is this thing called "race?" - a question so basic it is rarely raised. What we discovered is that most of our common assumptions about race - for instance, that the world's people can be divided biologically along racial lines - are wrong. Yet the consequences of racism are very real. Yes I understand this is different than what most of us learned in school (long ago), from our parents, and from our societies. But that doesn't mean that the way we were conditioned to think about race reflects the truth about race. Edited February 25, 2011 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Wow, so now DNA that can determine someone's genetic make-up and determine race is .... outdated? If "Race" doesn't exist then obviously "Racism" can't either. It can be called bigotry but not racism if there is not "race". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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