ขึ้น And ลง

[farangnahrak]

I'm getting confused with the words ขึ้น and ลง. They seem so counter-intuitive, and my understanding seems to contradict Thai Reference Grammar.

My understanding that agrees with the book:

รวยขึ้น - get richer

อ้วนขึ้น - get fatter

เร็วขึ้น - get faster

The confusion is when I use the opposites of these words . . .

According to my understanding:

จนขึ้น - get poorer

จนลง - become less poor (ie richer)

ผอมขึ้น - get skinnier

ผอมลง - become less skinny (ie fatter)

ช้าขึ้น - get slower

ช้าลง - become less slow (ie faster)

According to Thai Reference Grammar:

จนขึ้น - (doesn't exist)

จนลง - become poorer

ผอมขึ้น - (doesn't exist)

ผอมลง - become skinnier

ช้าขึ้น - (doesn't exist)

ช้าลง - become slower

Edited February 23, 2011 by farangnahrak

[HeavyDrinker]

According to Thai Reference Grammar:

จนขึ้น - (doesn't exist)

จนลง - become poorer

ผอมขึ้น - (doesn't exist)

ผอมลง - become skinnier

ช้าขึ้น - (doesn't exist)

ช้าลง - become slower

,

ขึ้น is used to indicate an increase in a condition.

ลง is used to indicate a decrease in a condition.

I think your confusion here is in the opposites here.

In English you wouldn't say ' to not get skinnier' you would say 'to get fatter' so you would use 'อ้วนขึ้น' to indicate someone was getting fat.

Edited February 23, 2011 by HeavyDrinker

[HappyInCM]

ผอมลง - become skinnier

In English, "to slim down" is the same. (i love those "slim up centers" here in Thailand ). Just one of those things that is the way it is.

Edited February 24, 2011 by eljefe2

[farangnahrak]

Google gave me 11,000 results for "ผอมขึ้น", meaning it definitely exists. More importantly, the results talk about how to get skinnier not fatter, for example:

http://fashnchic.thport.com/?p=44

[Rikker]

ผอมขึ้น definitely exists, but it's safe to call it rare. 11,000 hits is extremely few in web terms (ผอมลง has 681,000 hits), and even then some portion of those are false positives, not actually used in the way you're thinking.

For example, Google is finding phrases like:

เกาหลีใต้คลั่งผอม...ขึ้นแชมป์ผลิต-นำเข้ายาลดอ้วนโลก "South Korea has skinny fever...becomes top world producer/importer of weight-loss drugs" (ผอม ends one clause, ขึ้น begins the next, indicating Korea's ascendancy in world ranking)

สเปนห้ามนางแบบผอมขึ้นแคทวอล์ก "Spain bans skinny models from the catwalk" (here the ขึ้น in ขึ้นแคทวอล์ก is the verb of getting up on the catwalk).

So while ผอมขึ้น exists, we might compare it to "more skinnier" in English. Some people may use it, but most people would consider it incorrect.

The fact of the matter is, these things are subject to convention and common consensus just like anything else. They can change, and often they make logical sense, but there's some arbitrariness to it. Some things are assigned a particular directionality because society has agreed that's the way they are. Some are more cut and dried, like อ้วนขึ้น and ผอมลง. Others are more flexible--for "get older", both แก่ลง and แก่ขึ้น are used.

Thai can be confusing, but every language is full of such arbitrary things. Why do we say "I've arrived at the airport" but say "I've arrived in Thailand"? We might concoct a logical justification for the difference, but we could as easily justify the opposite case. The point is that conventions exist, and if we hope to communicative as effectively as possible, we're compelled to follow them even if they seem illogical or arbitrary.

[Peppy]

According to my understanding:

จนขึ้น - get poorer

จนลง - become less poor (ie richer)

ผอมขึ้น - get skinnier

ผอมลง - become less skinny (ie fatter)

ช้าขึ้น - get slower

ช้าลง - become less slow (ie faster)

As Rikker says above, these aren't opposites; each pair means the same thing (get ____-er), but the first form of each is not quite correct grammar-wise.

To actually say "become less _____", you'd have to use น้อยลง i.e. จนน้อยลง "become less poor".

[farangnahrak]

What about the difference between แย่ขึ้น and แย่ลง? Same thing?

I remember my monk teacher saying one means to 'get worse' and the other meant 'get better'. This is basically what has triggered my confusion . . .

[Tod Daniels]

I always looked at those two words ขึ้น/ลง in a strictly directional sense of what ever word they are used with.

To me, if something is ขึ้น'ing; what ever it is, is going up or ascending in its conditionality. Conversely if something is ลง'ing its conditionality is going down or descending.

In using this methodology on your examples I would imagine with แย่ขึ้น the situation of being "terrible, dreadful or bad" is ascending or it's getting more แย่. While แย่ลง would mean it's descending, getting better or less แย่.

This line of thought, even accounts for the oh-so numerous engrish signs for "slim-up" centers, as the condition of being slender is increasing i.e. go there, you'll get thinner. It would seem someone is word by word translating the words "slender" and the word which conveys a conditionality increase in thai, hence slim up, not slim down like we'd say.

If I'm off base feel free to correct me, but that was my understanding of the two.

Edited February 24, 2011 by tod-daniels

[farangnahrak]

In using this methodology on your examples I would imagine with แย่ขึ้น the situation of being "terrible, dreadful or bad" is ascending or it's getting more แย่. While แย่ลง would mean it's descending, getting better or less แย่.

That methodology works great for อ้วน because more fat means fatter. Fatter is also bigger, which is more. We all agree on this.

But what about ผอม? Using this methodology, ผอมขึ้น would be more skinny, and ผอมลง would be less skinny. Right?

At the other end of looking at this (Rikkers comment), being more skinny means having less fat, and being more skinny means being a smaller size. So in that sense, ผอมลง would be to get skinnier, no? If thats the case it's not about ascending or descending, or whether ขึ้น or ลง means more or less of the adjective, but instead the quantity of what is actually happening to the adjective.

I could be wrong but maybe it's like this:

อ้วนขึ้น more fat

ผอมลง less fat

แก่ขึ้น more age (age only goes up)

But then there is still แย่ . . . when things get worse, they go in a downwards direction, no? That'd be แย่ลง for getting worse, and แย่ขึ้น for things getting better . . .

Or maybe this just doesn't have any well defined rules, and we just need to memorize it on a case by case word by word basis?

[Tod Daniels]

I think you could be confusing the two thai words ขึ้น/ลง which denote directionality in a condition with english meanings (better/worse) which while conveying directionality dont work the same way these thai words do.

Then again I freely admit I could be wrong.

In this case, following my theory in my previous post; ผอมลง would mean your thinness went down, As the condition of being thin went down, decreased, meaning you weren't as thin as before or you got fatter. Were not talking about real weight but a condition that the body is in, given the word ผอม.

I do believe I got the แย่ one's correct, as the condition of badness either went up, got worse แย่ขึ้น or went down, got better แย่ลง, especially in relation to the way thais use the words ขึ้น/ลง.

Dunno, but certainly interesting and I will ask a thai teacher tomorrow.

I believe it's more a case of english language interference in regards to how conditions either become better or worse versus how thais view and denote them with their words.

Still quite the interesting thread 'cute farang'. .

Edited February 24, 2011 by tod-daniels

[bifftastic]

Sitting somewhat on the edge of this 'phenomenon' as it were, being that I've only recently encountered these words and their usage

I have to say that Tod's explanation seems to make sense to me (not that that would necessarily indicate that it was right )

But maybe it's a confusion of the 'up' and 'down' properties of the words?

I mean things that get worse, to me anyway, don't really have a direction as such, they just get 'more bad' or 'less bad' so an increase or a decrease, this does get complicated when you're talking about an increase of skinniness because skinniness is a decrease in weight! But you can get less skinny and more skinny.

Very interesting conundrum I'm trying to decrease my ignorance, or increase my knowledge. Ok now my heads spinning just from the Engrish!

[violet]

<BR>Sitting somewhat on the edge of this 'phenomenon' as it were, being that I've only recently encountered these words and their usage <IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif"><BR><BR>Very'>http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif"><BR><BR>Very interesting conundrum <IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif"> I'm trying to decrease my ignorance, or increase my knowledge. Ok now my heads spinning just from the Engrish! <IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif"><BR>

<BR><BR>By Tgeezer <BR>You might be interested to know that ลง as an adjective doesn't appear until after the 2525 edition of the RID so was probably added to for compatability with English. It is not surprising that it is confusing because we have invented our own rules to govern its use, this is an English thing to do.<BR> <BR>Thai is not a definitive language like English, but is a 'work in progress' (arn't we all?); a word means what the speaker intended it to mean, taking words out of context like this doesn't provide answers. <BR><BR> From the <EM>new </EM>RID ลง ว. อาการที่ไปสู่เบิ้องต่ำ เช่น ไหลลง ถอยลง เลื่อนลง; (adverb?- two verbs just as good) มากกว่าเดิม เช่น เลวลง ผอมลง ถูกลง สั้นลง are the examples in the book; are they bad and getting worse ? ผอมขึ้น is 'good getting better' to some people, but not an to a doctor regarding an anorexic person I assume, and not to a traditional Thai, so it would depend on context. <BR><BR> Edited February 25, 2011 by violet

[violet]

By tgeezer,, I apologise for the way my post has turned out I hope it doesn't put people off, I seem fated never to be able to make a point sensibly. Can't log-on under my own name either.:jap:

Edited February 25, 2011 by violet

[Aulok]

Language changes with culture.

The two words ขึ้น and ลง, meaning 'up' and 'down' respectively, usually express the attitude of the speaker. When something becomes 'more' or 'better', ขึ้น 'up' is often preferred, when something becomes 'less' or 'worse', ลง 'down' is preferred.

Because poorness,skinniness,slowness have been traditionally treated as belonging to the 'less' or 'worse' category, you seldom find them occur with ขึ้น 'up' in Thai. That means ขึ้น 'up' represents a positive attitude and ลง 'down' a negative attitude. That's why we have 'thumbs up' and 'thumbs down".

However,the expression ผอมขึ้น "to be thin up" can be occassionally found in present day speech. This is because it is now regarded as a good thing to become thinner! You know slimness rather than obesity is regarded as vogue these days. Just look at those catwalkers who can be as thin as paper.

[farangnahrak]

Aulok . . . are you trying to tell us that Thais say อ้วนขึ้น because getting fat is desirable?

[Aulok]

Aulok . . . are you trying to tell us that Thais say อ้วนขึ้น because getting fat is desirable?

-------- Yes. Definitely so. For humans it used to be desirable. For livestock, it is still very desirable today. Two rules (1 change of quantitity; 2 attitude) govern the usage of this adverb. ผอมขึ้น is governed by these 2 rules. I suggest you ask some native speakers around you about the historical attitude towards fatness. I have no more comments. C.U. :-)

Edited February 25, 2011 by Aulok

[violet]

Aulok . . . are you trying to tell us that Thais say อ้วนขึ้น because getting fat is desirable?

-------- Yes. Definitely so. For humans it used to be desirable. For livestock, it is still very desirable today. Two rules (1 change of quantitity; 2 attitude) govern the usage of this adverb. ผอมขึ้น is governed by these 2 rules. I suggest you ask some native speakers around you about the historical attitude towards fatness. I have no more comments. C.U. :-)

By Tgeezer

Well done Aulok.

There are times when getting fat is desirable and at such times Thais say อ้วนขึ้น.

Context is not widely understood it seems.

Edited February 25, 2011 by violet

[bifftastic]

Aulok . . . are you trying to tell us that Thais say อ้วนขึ้น because getting fat is desirable?

-------- Yes. Definitely so. For humans it used to be desirable. For livestock, it is still very desirable today. Two rules (1 change of quantitity; 2 attitude) govern the usage of this adverb. ผอมขึ้น is governed by these 2 rules. I suggest you ask some native speakers around you about the historical attitude towards fatness. I have no more comments. C.U. :-)

Thank you very much very helpful.

[farangnahrak]

I've been asking around . . . no Thai was able to tell me any grammar rules, they were just going by what they felt made sense or not . . .

แย่ขึ้น and แย่ลง mean the exact same thing, to get worse, and both are correct to say.

ดีขึ้น means to get better, but ดีลง has no meaning in Thai.

ผอมลง means to get skinnier, and ผอมขึ้น is sarcasm meaning to get fatter.

ผอมน้อยลง means to be less skinny than before, and อ้วนน้อยลง means to be less fat than before. อ้วนลง has no meaning.

[Rikker]

I've been asking around . . . no Thai was able to tell me any grammar rules, they were just going by what they felt made sense or not . . .

That's my point about conventions--these things haven't developed in a strictly logical manner, and so all you can do is learn how they're used and use them accordingly.

[dobadoy]

Thanks Aulok - that post alone made this thread worth reading, and explains a lot.