Thai Probe Says Army Did Not Kill Japan Cameraman

[thaihome]

OK so i fcuked up there, so what would you call a PM who sets his army on his own people. Tell me and i stand corrected.

A pure fallacy argument of a loaded question and misleading discourse no different then one "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?".

You resorting to this tatic only shows how weak your position and actual knowledge of the events actually is.

TH

[Insight]

move back into the main protest site ? what about the nurse who was shot dead by the army inside the temple !

And you know it was the army because...?

[animatic]

It is notable, yet again, the sudden uptick in sheer desperation to blame the army for everything here, at the exact time the Censure Motion has kicked into gear yet again. Just as this same argument went into high gear here the last 2 times the PTP tried to bring this up.

Certain posters suddenly become unnaturally argumentative for exactly the same points, soon to be unsuccessfully argued in the house. Why this is deemed useful is not clear, but each time the PTP or Reds start a big move this pattern emerges, just prior to it.

Never mind that the arguments are tangential, just plain nonsensical or spurious, another round always seems bring forward the same types and styles of arguments, just different names and slightly skewed styles.

Propaganda 101 blame the other side for everything,

and tell the lie often and loudly, then some may eventually believe it.

Propaganda 102, be sure to denigrate and label biased or incorrect all those with arguments that refute your big lie, because common sense can not go un-belittled if the lie is to every take hold.

Propaganda 103 make sure it appears there are also those out 'in the real world' who believe the story to be sold the public, so that the common man can have others to group themselves with.

Propaganda 104 repeat 101-103 often.

Edited March 2, 2011 by animatic

[pogal]

Not exactly, AK-47's also come in 5.56 (.223) as well as their traditional 7.62 so they would in fact be the same round.

While the AK-47 fires a 7.62x39mm ('short 7.62', compare with 7.62x51mm NATO) you might be referring to AK-74 that fires 5.45x39mm (compared to 5.56x45mm NATO it is both shorter and slightly less thick).

Unless you are referring to AK-101/AK-102, that is chambered in 5.56x45mm, but it is both a fairly recent design (1994) and not licenses/cloned in the same way as AK-47 or AK-74 (with the former being manufactured in numbers of millions throughout the world).

It is not very likely that any army personnel would be fielding an AK-101/AK-102 as the Thai army doesn't use it, the AK-47 are however widespread on the black market thanks in part to the masses of rifles being smuggled in during the communist uprising both here and across the borders.

I stand corrected then, I must be talking about the AK-101/102. My friend used to have one and we could use .223 rounds in both the Ak and the AR-15.

Thanks for enlightening me:)

[Buchholz]

this act of genocide

these acts of genocide.

Definition of genocide:

The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.

Definition of hyperbole:

An obvious and intentional exaggeration

http://www.thefreedictionary.com

OK so i fcuked up there, so what would you call a PM who sets his army on his own people. Tell me and i stand corrected.

[jayboy]

It is notable, yet again, the sudden uptick in sheer desperation to blame the army for everything here, at the exact time the Censure Motion has kicked into gear yet again. Just as this same argument went into high gear here the last 2 times the PTP tried to bring this up.

Certain posters suddenly become unnaturally argumentative for exactly the same points, soon to be unsuccessfully argued in the house. Why this is deemed useful is not clear, but each time the PTP or Reds start a big move this pattern emerges, just prior to it.

Never mind that the arguments are tangential, just plain nonsensical or spurious, another round always seems bring forward the same types and styles of arguments, just different names and slightly skewed styles.

Propaganda 101 blame the other side for everything,

and tell the lie often and loudly, then some may eventually believe it.

Propaganda 102, be sure to denigrate and label biased or incorrect all those with arguments that refute your big lie, because common sense can not go un-belittled if the lie is to every take hold.

Propaganda 103 make sure it appears there are also those out 'in the real world' who believe the story to be sold the public, so that the common man can have others to group themselves with.

Propaganda 104 repeat 101-103 often.

The issue is not of course about blaming the army for everything.It is about its lack of accountability, dishonesty and record of violence against the Thai people.It is simply not possible as some apologists suggest that this "baggage" simply be overlooked.In the case of the Japanese journalist there has still to be an independent and transparent investigation.

[silp1979]

My mind would be comforted if Khunying Pornthip Rojanasunand M.D. .......

The woman has no credibility. You might want to reconsider your position.

I believe the evidence is inconclusive and this is due to the manner in which the evidence was gathered and analyzed.

And yet she has far more credibility than you will ever have.

isnt PORNThIP the one who likes the GT200 fake bomb detector...lol but she has a interesting hairstyle

[silp1979]

My mind would be comforted if Khunying Pornthip Rojanasunand M.D. .......

The woman has no credibility. You might want to reconsider your position.

I believe the evidence is inconclusive and this is due to the manner in which the evidence was gathered and analyzed.

Agree completely about Porntip.

After GT 2000, what can you say.

Nonsense - she never said it works and is all great, she said that people had reported to her that it works and so she believes them. She never defended it as if she was placing all her reputation on it in a 'may the lord strike me down if it doesn't work' fashion that some of your red-leaning posters seem to imply.

You are the ones with credibility issues in your criticism of her since it all coincides with her findings regarding killed or wounded from riots by reds.

Porni is also called Miss yellowshirt isnt she

[philw]

It is notable, yet again, the sudden uptick in sheer desperation to blame the army for everything here, at the exact time the Censure Motion has kicked into gear yet again. Just as this same argument went into high gear here the last 2 times the PTP tried to bring this up.

Certain posters suddenly become unnaturally argumentative for exactly the same points, soon to be unsuccessfully argued in the house. Why this is deemed useful is not clear, but each time the PTP or Reds start a big move this pattern emerges, just prior to it.

Never mind that the arguments are tangential, just plain nonsensical or spurious, another round always seems bring forward the same types and styles of arguments, just different names and slightly skewed styles.

Propaganda 101 blame the other side for everything,

and tell the lie often and loudly, then some may eventually believe it.

Propaganda 102, be sure to denigrate and label biased or incorrect all those with arguments that refute your big lie, because common sense can not go un-belittled if the lie is to every take hold.

Propaganda 103 make sure it appears there are also those out 'in the real world' who believe the story to be sold the public, so that the common man can have others to group themselves with.

Propaganda 104 repeat 101-103 often.

The issue is not of course about blaming the army for everything.It is about its lack of accountability, dishonesty and record of violence against the Thai people.It is simply not possible as some apologists suggest that this "baggage" simply be overlooked.In the case of the Japanese journalist there has still to be an independent and transparent investigation.

Thank You JJ.

It amazes me that some on here dispute that the RTA shot Thai citizens in cold blood and then denied all accountability.

I can only conclude that some heavy posters have some sort of agenda or axe to grind.

[silp1979]

The issue is not of course about blaming the army for everything.It is about its lack of accountability, dishonesty and record of violence against the Thai people.It is simply not possible as some apologists suggest that this "baggage" simply be overlooked.In the case of the Japanese journalist there has still to be an independent and transparent investigation.

you know ...who are we to tell the thai people to decide how they want to live...they have to find there way themself, like the Tunesians, Egyptians, Burmese....good luck

[ianbaggie]

yes random as usual you talk utter complete piffle!! I dont remember the Thai army using grenades against innocent shoppers or burning building, or blowing up gas tanks at the airport or any of the other attrocities that the red shirt murderers commited - next youll be saying it was the army on stage at ractchaprasong - get a life and hug a tree random!!

tree hugger grow up Ian.

far away from it, I beg to differ, I live in Bangkok, I also saw with my own eyes what was happening, but hey if you want to ignore the FACT that the army were shooting people indiscriminately then that is up to you. Also at no point to I say the reds are innocent of wrongdoings, of course they were also involved, but the FACT is people were shot and killed by the army whilst being unarmed and posing no immediate threat. for proof of indiscriminate shooting by the army I again refer you to the FACT the shot and killed one of their own with what can basically be described as panicked indiscriminate shooting.

Both parties were involved in this, both parties killed people, of this I have no doubt, so quite why people are trying to absolve the army of indiscriminate killing is beyond me, it just shows a closed mind and an inability to accept the truth

funny you didnt mention the red shirts wrong doings only the armys and why do you have to keep shouting "FACT" thats only your opinion - can you show one piec e of evidence to show the army killed people?? The red shirt movement cant so why should you be able to? So come on stump up some evidence to back your claims!! The army behaved with great restraint - i was there on the Sunday that the reporter was shot getting papers in Kaosan rd and i saw the red shirt guards behind the crowd and i saw huge numbers of red shirts bating the soldiers and police who responded with silence till the red shirt crowd from somewhere fired shots - i know that happened i saw it - and reemonstrated with the motorcycle taxi driver I was with who said "Abhisit"!!. FACTS? you dont know what youre talking about. The fact is my thai wife was in the hospital 6 months pregnant when the red shirts broke in and ordered ALL of the patients in her ward - mostly pregnant women out of bed. I have a possible court case starting against the leaders soon. By the way my wife gave birth 3 months early due to being so stressed after the hospital invasion. THOSE ARE FACTS!!!!!

[ianbaggie]

yes random as usual you talk utter complete piffle!! I dont remember the Thai army using grenades against innocent shoppers or burning building, or blowing up gas tanks at the airport or any of the other attrocities that the red shirt murderers commited - next youll be saying it was the army on stage at ractchaprasong - get a life and hug a tree random!!

tree hugger grow up Ian.

far away from it, I beg to differ, I live in Bangkok, I also saw with my own eyes what was happening, but hey if you want to ignore the FACT that the army were shooting people indiscriminately then that is up to you. Also at no point to I say the reds are innocent of wrongdoings, of course they were also involved, but the FACT is people were shot and killed by the army whilst being unarmed and posing no immediate threat. for proof of indiscriminate shooting by the army I again refer you to the FACT the shot and killed one of their own with what can basically be described as panicked indiscriminate shooting.

Both parties were involved in this, both parties killed people, of this I have no doubt, so quite why people are trying to absolve the army of indiscriminate killing is beyond me, it just shows a closed mind and an inability to accept the truth

funny you didnt mention the red shirts wrong doings only the armys and why do you have to keep shouting "FACT" thats only your opinion - can you show one piec e of evidence to show the army killed people?? The red shirt movement cant so why should you be able to? So come on stump up some evidence to back your claims!! The army behaved with great restraint - i was there on the Sunday that the reporter was shot getting papers in Kaosan rd and i saw the red shirt guards behind the crowd and i saw huge numbers of red shirts bating the soldiers and police who responded with silence till the red shirt crowd from somewhere fired shots - i know that happened i saw it - and reemonstrated with the motorcycle taxi driver I was with who said "Abhisit"!!. FACTS? you dont know what youre talking about. The fact is my thai wife was in the hospital 6 months pregnant when the red shirts broke in and ordered ALL of the patients in her ward - mostly pregnant women out of bed. I have a possible court case starting against the leaders soon. By the way my wife gave birth 3 months early due to being so stressed after the hospital invasion. THOSE ARE FACTS!!!!!

[ianbaggie]

yes random as usual you talk utter complete piffle!! I dont remember the Thai army using grenades against innocent shoppers or burning building, or blowing up gas tanks at the airport or any of the other attrocities that the red shirt murderers commited - next youll be saying it was the army on stage at ractchaprasong - get a life and hug a tree random!!

tree hugger grow up Ian.

far away from it, I beg to differ, I live in Bangkok, I also saw with my own eyes what was happening, but hey if you want to ignore the FACT that the army were shooting people indiscriminately then that is up to you. Also at no point to I say the reds are innocent of wrongdoings, of course they were also involved, but the FACT is people were shot and killed by the army whilst being unarmed and posing no immediate threat. for proof of indiscriminate shooting by the army I again refer you to the FACT the shot and killed one of their own with what can basically be described as panicked indiscriminate shooting.

Both parties were involved in this, both parties killed people, of this I have no doubt, so quite why people are trying to absolve the army of indiscriminate killing is beyond me, it just shows a closed mind and an inability to accept the truth

funny you didnt mention the red shirts wrong doings only the armys and why do you have to keep shouting "FACT" thats only your opinion - can you show one piec e of evidence to show the army killed people?? The red shirt movement cant so why should you be able to? So come on stump up some evidence to back your claims!! The army behaved with great restraint - i was there on the Sunday that the reporter was shot getting papers in Kaosan rd and i saw the red shirt guards behind the crowd and i saw huge numbers of red shirts bating the soldiers and police who responded with silence till the red shirt crowd from somewhere fired shots - i know that happened i saw it - and reemonstrated with the motorcycle taxi driver I was with who said "Abhisit"!!. FACTS? you dont know what youre talking about. The fact is my thai wife was in the hospital 6 months pregnant when the red shirts broke in and ordered ALL of the patients in her ward - mostly pregnant women out of bed. I have a possible court case starting against the leaders soon. By the way my wife gave birth 3 months early due to being so stressed after the hospital invasion. THOSE ARE FACTS!!!!!<BR>

[ianbaggie]

Of course it is a cover up, of course the army were responsible for the deaths of many unarmed people that day, people not posing an immediate threat were shot and killed by the army, only a fool would try and argue otherwise.

I

How many unarmed were killed that day many means more than one.

Only a fool would refuse to look at the evidence.

The evidence is surely going to be very suspicious coming this late.

How do you figure the army was responsible. They may of fired the shot but they were not responsible for him being in a war zone or for creating the situation with the illegal seizure of the area.

When if ever will the red shirts take responsibility for there actions.

Explain if you can why the army was there if there was nothing wrong. Yes I know because the police could not do there job. But why would the police have been there if they could have done there job?

You can babble on about the injustice of it all and the mishandling of the poor armed peaceful demonstrators. But ask yourself if they were in your back yard refusing to move turning it into a garbage dump and urging people to burn it down if you didn't give them what they wanted would you say that was OK.

You might want to take another look at where the responsibility for the whole mess really is.

I will give you a clue. There was a lot of money paid by a citizen of several other countries.

So ! why were the army using live ammunition against Thai protesters when they should have been using rubber bullets and tear gas ? Sounds a bit like Gadaffi killing his own people. Why do you not think that somebody should not have to answer to this act of genocide. The PM had no right to turn the army on the people like a pack of wild dogs. We all know how brutal the thai army can be when let loose, from past incidents.

OH COME ON!!!! purleeeese rubber bullets and tear gas against AK47s fired by black shirt guards - do you want all the thai army dead - who would defend us from M79 grenade attacks on shoppers if they were - furthermore - MOST of the army and police on the Sunday that the journalist was shot and at the BTS stations had only rubber bullets - i KNOW I SAW them!! Red shirt supporters what a bunch of truth twisters!!! them and Juthaporn deserve each other!!!

[ianbaggie]

An obvious question to ask, is was there any evidence that the reds had AK47s during the end of the Rajprasong mess? We know there were snipers around from both sides, but is there any video or picture evidence of AK47s being used? Anyone find a pic anywhere?

The bullets that hit my house from redshirt area were fired from AK47. So they were definitely used by the reds.

Unfortunately I only have the photos of the holes and bullets left, but no longer keep the souvenirs.

That does not DEFINATELY mean used by the reds. Try using that argument in a decent court. I am not pro red or yellow they are both as bad as each other. Your prosecution argument would be laughed out of caught. 7.62mm rounds are used a lot of various weapons. How are you so 100% DEFINATELY sure it was an AK 47 and used by a red. You used the word definate I can just see your opening and closing remarks all in one sentence. "Your honour the reds did it with an AK47 and I rest my case"

AHHH that explains it all - the soldiers shot themselves!!!! the equivalent of a judean suicide squad ala Life of bryan - i seeeeee - some red shirts are SO desperate to ignore the truth today!!!

[Pi Sek]

Yes that is one of the ashots of armed men in black on the scene.

They clearly are NOT with the army....

The whole thing was an obvious setup to provoke the army into a deadly action any way they could, because historically this has brought down governments. But what they didn't count on was the prevalence of so much 'personal media capture devices' such as what got this clip, and the fact it made obvious the malicious intent of the Red rally's behind the scenes bosses to create just the scenes of destruction and death they created.

And the continuing attempts nearly a year later to get some political traction from it. Latest up front attempt a recycle of the same charges in the coming censure debate. It has been a massive and incredibly cynical exercise in real politique through violence to win control of a country from it's people, while pretending to be for, and by, the poorest of those people. Yet really controlled by a nuevo-riche clique of the same class of overlords that are the purported target for removal.

Cynical seems not a strong enough a word,

diabolical and Machiavellian start to get there.

Maybe fall back on a simple but clear word to describe this:

EVIL.

That's a really cynical point of view and one that could be described as bordering on paranoid or conspiratorial.

But I think you're pretty close to the mark. I agree that "Evil" is a good word for it. I've thought for a while now that Thaksin's actions over the last 8 years have put him up there with the very worst of bad guys (prompt all the obvious flames). Your theory above does sound like a storyboard for a megalomaniac James Bond bad guy character, doesn't it?

You still need to prove that those armed men were not "Plants", i wonder why none of them were shot or even identified to date ! very suspicious indeed .

Goodness me...!

[ianbaggie]

...

Main point however is that the Thai army has an uncontested record of violence against unarmed citizens, followed by cover up or refusal to be accountable.It is just common sense to treat the evidence of a body associated with outright lying with some scepticism.By all means give them the benefit of the doubt but one should be very sceptical when hearing from proven liars.

The difference being that this time around they were fighting against armed civilians.

In your 'educated' opinion, just how many armed civilians and against how many armed soldiers ?

You should have stayed in the navy!!! i saw at least 24 red shirt guards with AK47s - and ammunition. the fact is in UK if ONE person was armed no body would blame the police for being armed - why do the army have to present themselves as targbets to the red shirt terrorists!!

[ianbaggie]

Using stuff from the past, as some people are doing, doesn't make sense. What happened in the past is not necessarily what happened this time, so saying the army has covered up past abuses is irrelevant. The question here is what happened in this particular death. There is footage of Sae Daeng's ronin armed with AK's from that night. I assume that the Japanese have been kept apprised of the progress of the case, and would not be surprised if they were present at the autopsy. I assume we will know soon what they think.

A philosophy lecturer could use the following sentence as an example of deeply flawed thought process.Can you see the lack of logic now or would you like me to point it out?

" What happened in the past is not necessarily what happened this time, so saying the army has covered up past abuses is irrelevant."

More generally and at a practical level if the Thai army is known to have lied consistently about the murder of civilians in the past (which is undoubtably the case), does that not make at least its current position worth some scrutiny?

I do agree with you however that the Japanese Embassy position is critical, and if they are satisfied with the explanation we should let matters rest.

Can you give examples of the Thai army CONSISTENTLY lying in the past?? I bet I can give more examples of Jathuporn and Thaksin lying !!!! I think JDinasia has it exactly right.

Well i can give you some examples of the Thai army's brutality if that will help you.

i can cetainly give you examples of red shirt brutality and terrorism - so lets see them then - produce your evidence as you claim you can!!!

[Insight]

It is notable, yet again, the sudden uptick in sheer desperation to blame the army for everything here, at the exact time the Censure Motion has kicked into gear yet again. Just as this same argument went into high gear here the last 2 times the PTP tried to bring this up.

Certain posters suddenly become unnaturally argumentative for exactly the same points, soon to be unsuccessfully argued in the house. Why this is deemed useful is not clear, but each time the PTP or Reds start a big move this pattern emerges, just prior to it.

Never mind that the arguments are tangential, just plain nonsensical or spurious, another round always seems bring forward the same types and styles of arguments, just different names and slightly skewed styles.

Propaganda 101 blame the other side for everything,

and tell the lie often and loudly, then some may eventually believe it.

Propaganda 102, be sure to denigrate and label biased or incorrect all those with arguments that refute your big lie, because common sense can not go un-belittled if the lie is to every take hold.

Propaganda 103 make sure it appears there are also those out 'in the real world' who believe the story to be sold the public, so that the common man can have others to group themselves with.

Propaganda 104 repeat 101-103 often.

The issue is not of course about blaming the army for everything.It is about its lack of accountability, dishonesty and record of violence against the Thai people.It is simply not possible as some apologists suggest that this "baggage" simply be overlooked.In the case of the Japanese journalist there has still to be an independent and transparent investigation.

Thank You JJ.

It amazes me that some on here dispute that the RTA shot Thai citizens in cold blood and then denied all accountability.

I can only conclude that some heavy posters have some sort of agenda or axe to grind.

"accountability"

Any chance you pro-red folk could actually learn the meaning of that word?

As for the (ridiculous) "cold blood" claim, they sure waited a hell of a long time before allegedly doing so, eh?

Edited March 2, 2011 by Insight

[jayjay0]

It is notable, yet again, the sudden uptick in sheer desperation to blame the army for everything here, at the exact time the Censure Motion has kicked into gear yet again. Just as this same argument went into high gear here the last 2 times the PTP tried to bring this up.

Certain posters suddenly become unnaturally argumentative for exactly the same points, soon to be unsuccessfully argued in the house. Why this is deemed useful is not clear, but each time the PTP or Reds start a big move this pattern emerges, just prior to it.

Never mind that the arguments are tangential, just plain nonsensical or spurious, another round always seems bring forward the same types and styles of arguments, just different names and slightly skewed styles.

Propaganda 101 blame the other side for everything,

and tell the lie often and loudly, then some may eventually believe it.

Propaganda 102, be sure to denigrate and label biased or incorrect all those with arguments that refute your big lie, because common sense can not go un-belittled if the lie is to every take hold.

Propaganda 103 make sure it appears there are also those out 'in the real world' who believe the story to be sold the public, so that the common man can have others to group themselves with.

Propaganda 104 repeat 101-103 often.

Completely agree.

Here on Thai Visa it is mostly farongs whose opinion really dosen't matter.

Do you know if this nonsense gets to the common every day citizen who can vote. And do they put much stock in it?

[Activo]

An army general intimidating the DSI and forcing a change to their original findings will impress nobody except other army generals. My opinions of the events on that day are starting to change. The only ones to benefit from this will be the red shirts.

I remember that shortly afterwards there was some video footage on TV of one of the AK47 toting snipers at close range (less than 5m), taken by an international journalist, CNN sticks in my mind, with a hidden camera in a bag. His face was clearly visible. The sniper wore militray style T shirt and pants, but there is no way he was a soldier, he was too fat! The Thai army doesn't produce overweight non commissioned soldiers, they're not fed well enough and their lifestyle definitely doesn't lend itself to obesity. Which leaves the questions:- Who was he? What faction or group did he belong too? Who else has access to AK47s? More importantly why hasn't he been traced and arrested?

[Oberkommando]

Blame the army for everything?

They haven't admitted causing one death yet and are trying to lie and cover up their role in this cameraman's death despite eyewitness testimony and despite initial findings corroborating that evidence.

Some people show their absolute lack of moral standards and will try any attempt to defend the indefensible because they remain so obsessed with Thaksin Shinawatra.

Grow up.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Oberkommando

[rubl]

Blame the army for everything?

They haven't admitted causing one death yet and are trying to lie and cover up their role in this cameraman's death despite eyewitness testimony and despite initial findings corroborating that evidence.

Some people show their absolute lack of moral standards and will try any attempt to defend the indefensible because they remain so obsessed with Thaksin Shinawatra.

Grow up.

It would indeed help when some would admit to have caused harm. I don't expect individual soldiers to come forward, but to have one of those many generals admit 'yes, during cleanup people have been shot by us' would help, even when he adds 'unavoidable'.

Mind you, I'm also waiting for the other side to show remorse for 60+ grenades lobbed on army, police and non-red-shirts

[Oberkommando]

It would indeed help when some would admit to have caused harm. I don't expect individual soldiers to come forward, but to have one of those many generals admit 'yes, during cleanup people have been shot by us' would help, even when he adds 'unavoidable'.

Mind you, I'm also waiting for the other side to show remorse for 60+ grenades lobbed on army, police and non-red-shirts

Agreed but surely it is the job of government to show responsibility and take the lead.

I think they have their hands tied as the military are the ones calling the shots and will never admit any culpability. The really are the biggest detriment to Thailand and the single biggest obstacle to any form of feasible democracy here.

Not the Democrats fault though, no Thai government has had any real control over the military and to maintain the status quo any politicians that do try are removed as history proves time and time again.

[jdinasia]

It would indeed help when some would admit to have caused harm. I don't expect individual soldiers to come forward, but to have one of those many generals admit 'yes, during cleanup people have been shot by us' would help, even when he adds 'unavoidable'.

Mind you, I'm also waiting for the other side to show remorse for 60+ grenades lobbed on army, police and non-red-shirts

Agreed but surely it is the job of government to show responsibility and take the lead.

I think they have their hands tied as the military are the ones calling the shots and will never admit any culpability. The really are the biggest detriment to Thailand and the single biggest obstacle to any form of feasible democracy here.

Not the Democrats fault though, no Thai government has had any real control over the military and to maintain the status quo any politicians that do try are removed as history proves time and time again.

The government (and by extension the Army) did, in fact, take the lead by attempting to negotiate and refusing to use any force for so long. The reds escalated the violence (after they walked away from negotiations in late March) and has not accepted any responsibility now or ever for the mayhem they have caused since 2007. Nothing for the deaths in 2008, nothing for ASEAN summit and BKK in 2009, and nothing for 2010 including the use of "war weapons" and the petrol bombs on April 9th (the escalation that kicked off the April 10th events.)

It is worth note that in the Western sense of the word, all elected officials would be considered "government" and the PTP MP's on stage certainly were calling for violence.

Yes, the military has many unanswered questions ...... but THIS thread is about a single case. The Japanese cameraman who was killed.

[metisdead]

A post quoting material from Bangkok Post as well as a link to their site has been removed.

31) All members are not allowed to quote news articles or material from bangkokpost.com or phuketwan inside topics on thaivisa.com. Posts containing quotes will be deleted from the forum. Links referring back to the sites are also not allowed and will be deleted.

[jayboy]

Yes, the military has many unanswered questions ...... but THIS thread is about a single case. The Japanese cameraman who was killed.

You consistently point out it's about a single case.And of course it is but your shrill calls for all past history to be ignored simply confirms your prejudices.As though the Thai army's record of violence and lies can be ignored.

While it's about a single case, as the following BBC report points out the prevarication, lies and attempt to subvert justice in this instance are also observed across many of the investigations into the killings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12593729

[animatic]

It is notable, yet again, the sudden uptick in sheer desperation to blame the army for everything here, at the exact time the Censure Motion has kicked into gear yet again. Just as this same argument went into high gear here the last 2 times the PTP tried to bring this up.

Certain posters suddenly become unnaturally argumentative for exactly the same points, soon to be unsuccessfully argued in the house. Why this is deemed useful is not clear, but each time the PTP or Reds start a big move this pattern emerges, just prior to it.

Never mind that the arguments are tangential, just plain nonsensical or spurious, another round always seems bring forward the same types and styles of arguments, just different names and slightly skewed styles.

Propaganda 101 blame the other side for everything,

and tell the lie often and loudly, then some may eventually believe it.

Propaganda 102, be sure to denigrate and label biased or incorrect all those with arguments that refute your big lie, because common sense can not go un-belittled if the lie is to every take hold.

Propaganda 103 make sure it appears there are also those out 'in the real world' who believe the story to be sold the public, so that the common man can have others to group themselves with.

Propaganda 104 repeat 101-103 often.

The issue is not of course about blaming the army for everything.It is about its lack of accountability, dishonesty and record of violence against the Thai people.It is simply not possible as some apologists suggest that this "baggage" simply be overlooked.In the case of the Japanese journalist there has still to be an independent and transparent investigation.

Thank You JJ.

It amazes me that some on here dispute that the RTA shot Thai citizens in cold blood and then denied all accountability.

I can only conclude that some heavy posters have some sort of agenda or axe to grind.

The RTA never denied that the RTA shot people during the 3 major clashes that occurred.

What has not been declared is that

All 91 were shot by the army, because that is not so. But appears to be a red side accusation,

That individuals were matched to specific weapons in specific instances in most all cases.

Baggage is just that, something from before, and not always with even the current leaders as active players,

but they get saddled with history not necessarily of their doing. In many cases the active players from before

are now on opposing sides, rendering these claims more moot than valid.

What IS clear is that some of these older generation leaders tried to use the weight of historical baggage, as a societal cudgel, or reason to believe that creating enough citizen vs army violence would bring down the government, and set that violence in motion, to their shock it did NOT work. But still believe they will have political traction flogging that dead horse still one more time.

The army visibly resisted being manipulated into this debacle as long as was possible, but society, the greater society, demanded an end to the Racha. occupation and public disruptoin, and so they were forced to move. Their hand was forced, and society in general made it happen, but the Red Shirts over-lord leaders made this untenable situation to be so, trying to make old baggage bring down a current government.

Seems the modern media was not the 'adder and abettor 'they had counted on, in fact the inverse happened. The handheld personal media proliferation actually showed them for what they were to the whole world TWICE. And twice as fast.

[jdinasia]

Hmmm more personal comments directed about me .... strange; now I am "shrill". Earlier in the thread I stated ALL sides with any power need to be viewed with a critical eye. I have never denied the Army's history. I have stonily, in the face of multiple personal attacks, pointed out that in this case ONLY the facts of this case are pertinent. The BBC report does not point out any prevarication as stated by a poster above, nor does it at all question the history of the Army. It points out a lack of cooperation from the police and military in showing up to meet with the independent investigation. It points out that there is an appearance that the current report and a leaked (unofficial?) report from earlier may be contradictory. No, in this case history isn't important. As Joe Friday always said ... "the facts, ma'am, just the facts"

BTW -- please don't alter my posts by deleting the majority of a post, particularly when in this instance the Army was mentioned prominently in the first paragraph.

[hyperdimension]

What IS clear is that some of these older generation leaders tried to use the weight of historical baggage, as a societal cudgel, or reason to believe that creating enough citizen vs army violence would bring down the government, and set that violence in motion, to their shock it did NOT work. But still believe they will have political traction flogging that dead horse still one more time.

Not just one horse, but many buffaloes.