Rare Letters

[NguuMuu]

Many Thai letters are supposedly classified as rare...How rare is rare? comparable to x? q? z?

I know there are lists of how common english letters are (http://www.santacruzpl.org/readyref/files/g-l/ltfrqeng.shtml)...anything similar for thai?

Additionally, what exactly does obsolete mean? If it is really obsolete, then why is the letter on a keyboard? Would you ever encounter ฦ or would it always be replaced with ลื in modern writing?

Thanks for the help.

[itsatree]

Many Thai letters are supposedly classified as rare...How rare is rare?  comparable to x? q? z?

I know there are lists of how common english letters are (http://www.santacruzpl.org/readyref/files/g-l/ltfrqeng.shtml)...anything similar for thai?

Additionally, what exactly does obsolete mean? If it is really obsolete, then why is the letter on a keyboard?  Would you ever encounter ฦ or would it always be replaced with ลื in modern writing?

Thanks for the help.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think obsolete means we don't use it any more in writing. For example, we don't put "khor kuad" and "kor kon" on Thai keyboard. Don't know why we don't use them any more. Those who know the reason, pleae enlighten me! We also don't use these two alphabets in normal textbooks(school materrials). However, some people and scholars try to use "kor kon" for the word "kon" (human) instead of using ค because we call this letter "kor kwai" (water buffalo). This is just my idea. Maybe worng.

Next month a new Thai magazine will come out and its name is "Kor Kon".

Edited September 13, 2005 by itsatree

[Richard W]

Many Thai letters are supposedly classified as rare...How rare is rare?  comparable to x? q? z?

I know there are lists of how common english letters are (http://www.santacruzpl.org/readyref/files/g-l/ltfrqeng.shtml)...anything similar for thai?

Additionally, what exactly does obsolete mean? If it is really obsolete, then why is the letter on a keyboard?  Would you ever encounter ฦ or would it always be replaced with ลื in modern writing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ฦ is reported not to occur in Thai. It was a fairly rare sound in Sanskrit to begin with. ฬ is very rare, occurring in only three common words - กีฬา 'sport' and นาฬิกา 'clock', วาฬ 'dolphin, whale'. ฌ is also very rare, much rarer than 'x', 'q' or 'z'. However, don't forget that the Thai script is also used to write Pali and Sanskrit.

I've seen ฅ used to transliterate the corresponding Northern Thai (tua mueang) letter. I don't recall ever seeing ฃ used, though I expect it is used in transcriptions of ancient inscriptions. Is it used in car registration numbers? These two letters were invented for Thai, but sound changes made them completely redundant in Central Thai and North-Eastern Thai/Lao - they represented the same sound, including tone effects, as ข and ค. The latter merger did not occur in Northern Thai. I can't speak for Southern Thai.

[Edward B]

Is it used in car registration numbers?

My guess is no, don't think so. In the south many cars have both the Thai and English alphabets, since commuters go back and forth between Thailand and Malaysia often enough. I've noticed that the system for converting English letters to Thai ones is: A = ก, B = ข, C = ค, D = ง .. So there is no ช, ฃ or ฅ. I realise that this is working backwards to answer the question but I have also never seen those Thai letters used on car number plates.

For example, we don't put "khor kuad" and "kor kon" on Thai keyboard.

What do you mean? Of course they are on the Thai keyboard, next to the backspace key on the left.

ฦ is a Sanskrit vowel that will probably eventually disappear from Thai script. Not to be confused with ฤ.

[NguuMuu]

Thanks for the responses, but Edward B has brought up another one of my questions:

When we are making lists, such as in an outline, we always label using every letter in our alpahbet, i.e. a,b,c, d, e, f, etc. It seems that in Thai it is not done the same way...i think it goes something like this ก, ข, ค, ง, ? I can understand why obsolete characters such as ฃ would be omitted from the list, but why would a rare yet used character, ฆ, be omitted. Can someone tell me which Thai letters are omitted from a lettered list and explain why. Or am I mistaken about the way lists are set up?

[Edward B]

Luckily I have a Thai version of Microsoft Word on my compewter.

ก. A

ข. B

ค. C

ง. D

จ. E

ฉ. F

ช. G

ซ. H

ฌ. I

ญ. J

ฎ. K

ฏ. L

ฐ. M

ฑ. N

ฒ. O

ณ. P

ด. Q

ต. R

ถ. S

ท. T

ธ. U

น. V

บ. W

ป. X

ผ. Y

ฝ. Z

พ. Aa

ฟ. Ab

ภ. Ac

ม. Ad

ย. Ae

ร. Af

ล. Ag

ว. Ah

ศ. Ai

ษ. Aj

ส. Ak

ห. Al

ฬ. Am

อ. An

ฮ. Ao

กก. Ap

ขข. Aq

คค. Ar

งง. As

So you can work out which ones are missing. Why? No idea!

Edited September 14, 2005 by Edward B

[meadish_sweetball]

One reason could be the likeness to another letter. Khor Rakhang would look very similar to Mor Maa from afar.

[Edward B]

I don't think that's the reason. Missing from the list are ฃ, ฅ, ฆ and maybe ฤ. I asked my Thai colleague why they were and she could only suggest that these two letters ฃ, ฅ, never occur in Thai while ฆ only occurs in about 9 or 10 words and the first three have other letters that can be used for the sounds that the letters represent, as Richard mentioned before.

[Richard W]

I don't think that's the reason. Missing from the list are ฃ, ฅ, ฆ and maybe ฤ. I asked my Thai colleague why they were and she could only suggest that these two letters ฃ, ฅ, never occur in Thai while ฆ only occurs in about 9 or 10 words and the first three have other letters that can be used for the sounds that the letters represent, as Richard mentioned before.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, ฤ isn't a consonant, so I'm not surprised it's excluded. If you switch to Devanagari, Devanagari does *not* omit the letter corresponding to ฆ, so it seems not to be a general feature. I can suggest two explanations:

1) Association with ฆ่า 'kill' and ฆาต 'killing'.

2) A bug in Microsoft Word.

[Edward B]

I agree that ฤ is a vowel, but since there are some words in Thai that start with this letter, and it also looks like any other consonant, others might think it should be a part of the 'list' items.

I think explanation 2 regarding ฆ is more likely, but the 'bug' is most likely due to Microsoft programmers' ignorance with the Thai alphabet.

[NguuMuu]

I don't think explanation 2 is the reason behind the omission for the sole reason that when my TGF makes handwritten lists she always skips ฆ.

[Edward B]

You sure she doesn't work for Microsoft?

[mrbojangles]

I was absolutely "Gutted" this weekend. I started to learn the Alphabet at a Temple near to where i live (UK) about 3 months ago. We got taught the 44 consonants from "Gor Gy" to "Hor Nok Hook". So now i can read and write all of them, he says very proudly Anyway, we start the new term on Saturday and we have moved on to the "Sara's" whereas the newcomers are learning the consonants but this time only 28 of them I asked why? and the teacher said that the rest are obsolete or rare, so no need to learn. It was really hard to learn all of them 44 and now i find out that i needed to learn only 28. Even my Mrs didn't tell me about this

[meadish_sweetball]

I was absolutely "Gutted" this weekend. I started to learn the Alphabet at a Temple near to where i live (UK) about 3 months ago. We got taught the 44 consonants from "Gor Gy" to "Hor Nok Hook". So now i can read and write all of them, he says very proudly  Anyway, we start the new term on Saturday and we have moved on to the "Sara's" whereas the newcomers are learning the consonants but this time only 28 of them  I asked why? and the teacher said that the rest are obsolete or rare, so no need to learn. It was really hard to learn all of them 44 and now i find out that i needed to learn only 28.  Even my Mrs didn't tell me about this 

Your efforts won't go to waste mate, in the future you'll find it is helpful to know even the obsolete ones.

[mike_l]

I've got some rough figures on 'how rare is rare' for the Thai letters. This is from the thai2english database which has got about 33000 words in now. The figures are how often each letter appears as a percentage of the total number of words. For ก being 31.08% for example, that shows that there is about 10,000 words in the database with ก somewhere in them.

I wouldn't claim these are completely accurate figures for the language as a whole, but I think they give a reasonably good idea of how common some letters are compared to others.

ก = 31.08%

ข = 8.14%

ฃ = 0.00%

ค = 14.95%

ฅ = 0.00%

ฆ = 0.36%

ง = 27.08%

จ = 9.33%

ฉ = 1.28%

ช= 7.98%

ซ = 2.04%

ฌ= 0.05%

ญ = 2.46%

ฎ = 0.38%

ฏ = 0.40%

ฐ = 0.74%

ฑ = 0.55%

ฒ = 0.20%

ณ = 3.15%

ด = 17.42%

ต= 16.87%

ถ = 3.71%

ท = 12.93%

ธ= 3.11%

น= 35.47%

บ= 13.61%

ป = 11.80%

ผ = 4.11%

ฝ= 1.13%

พ = 10.19%

ฟ= 1.91%

ภ= 2.97%

ม = 24.85%

ย = 21.87%

ร= 34.79%

ล = 18.76%

ว = 21.03%

ศ = 4.26%

ษ= 2.74%

ส = 16.79%

ห = 14.90%

ฬ = 0.16%

ฮ = 0.49%

ฤ = 0.47%

ฦ = 0.00%

อ = 28.01%

Hope that helps

[mrbojangles]

Your efforts won't go to waste mate, in the future you'll find it is helpful to know even the obsolete ones.

Yeah, your'e probably right Meadish. It's just when your patiently trying to learn something and then find out you didn't need to learn it after all it can get a little frustrating.

I've got some rough figures on 'how rare is rare' for the Thai letters. This is from the thai2english database which has got about 33000 words in now. The figures are how often each letter appears as a percentage  of the total number of words. For ก being 31.08% for example, that shows that there is about 10,000 words in the database with ก somewhere in them.

I wouldn't claim these are completely accurate figures for the language as a whole, but I think they give a reasonably good idea of how common some letters are compared to others.

ฃ = 0.00%

ฅ = 0.00%

ฆ =  0.36%

ฌ= 0.05%

ฎ = 0.38%

ฏ = 0.40%

ฐ = 0.74%

ฑ = 0.55%

ฒ = 0.20%

ฬ = 0.16%

ฮ = 0.49%

ฤ = 0.47%

ฦ = 0.00%

Hope that helps

Interesting results Mike (for me being a beginner) thanks for your efforts. I've deleted the one's used more than 1% and left the one's with below 1% useage. Would the heavy weights agree with these results? What i do find strange is, i can understand "Rare" useage i.e Tor-Mon-Tow, that would be like comparing the letter "J" in the English alphabet. But how can something all of a sudden be "Obsolete"? I.E. Kor-Khuat, Kor-Kon and Por-Sum-Pow They must have existed at some point or does nobody say Bottle, Man and Ship anymore and have they deleted from the dictionary? Learning to read and write this language is indeed going to be an interesting one

Edited September 21, 2005 by mrbojangles

[Edward B]

But how can something all of a sudden be "Obsolete"? I.E. Kor-Khuat, Kor-Kon and Por-Sum-Pow

Careful, don't confuse ภ with ฦ.The three with a 0% usage haven't been removed from the dictionaries.....yet.

http://www.ku.ac.th/kuthai/thaitoday.htm

http://www.matichon.co.th/youth/youth.php?...30250745&show=1

[mrbojangles]

Careful, don't confuse ภ with ฦ.

Yep, sorry Edward, it was the size of the font. The second one with the long tail isn't in my Alphabet list (44) constenents (spelling) does that mean there was more than 44 before? How is that pronounced? Or should i not bother if it's obsolete?

[Edward B]

bojangles,

ฤ,ฤๅ and ฦ,ฦๅ are obsolete vowels, also called ligatures in some dictionaries, and are used to write pali and sanskrit words. So I wouldn't bother to learn how to say them.

If you're a sadist then here's the pronunciation of them:

ฤ - ริ or รึ or เรอ depending on the word. Note that this vowel/ligature is not obsolete.

ฤๅ - รือ --- I've seen this used instead of the word หรือ (or).

ฦ - ลึ

ฦๅ - ลือ

[Richard W]

But how can something all of a sudden be "Obsolete"? I.E. Kor-Khuat, Kor-Kon and Por-Sum-Pow  They must have existed at some point or does nobody say Bottle, Man and Ship anymore and have they deleted from the dictionary? Learning to read and write this language is indeed going to be an interesting one 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See post #3 in this thread for ฃ and ฅ. A number of French circumflexed vowels have become obsolete since I was at school, so it's not so peculiar. The spellings of the naming words are ขวด and คน, without the extra kinks.

The second one with the long tail isn't in my Alphabet list (44) constenents (spelling) does that mean there was more than 44 before? How is that pronounced? Or should i not bother if it's obsolete?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you count both ฃ and ฅ and ฤ and ฦ as consonants, you will have 46 consonants. Thais know there are 44 consonants, so you include whichever pair you feel is more appropriate. TiT.

[cholakarn]

One reason why the ฃ and ฅ should not be removed is that they complete the alphabet nursery rhyme, which starts with..

ก เอ๋ย ก ไก่

ข ไข่ ในเล้า

ฃ ของเรา

ค ไถนา

ฅ ขึงขัง

ฆ ข้างฝา...

Since the two alphabets appear rather early in the rhyme, if we removed them, we would have to rewrite the whole thing!