Muslim Violence Wrecking Southern Thailand Economy

[Kerryd]

FACT the following country have problem with Fanatics Muslim?

1. USA

2. England

3. France

4. Holland

5. Switzerland

6. Spain

7. Russia

8. Yugoslavia

9. China

10. India

11. Thailand

12. Sudan

13. Indonesia

14. Philipines

15. Israel

16. Afghanistan

17. Malaysia (remember Aceh ?)

18. Sri Lanka (yeah, they're in that mix too)

19. Sudan (those are Muslim militias the government has going after the non-muslims)

20. Chad, Algeria, parts of the Congo (h@ll, half of Africa)

21. Egypt (those were Muslims that bombed Sharm el Sheik last July)

add more if u know

I don't know what Koran said but read the list.. the result is not good

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been reading the Koran recently. Funny enough, a lot of what is said about it, isn't written in it (unless it's all in the last 10-15 pages).

Once I've finished it, I'll be going through it again to make note of the specific promises made, and what is not said/written (like the whole 70 virgins in paradise for who ever dies in Allah's name thing).

So far, the only thing Mohammed promises (er, make that Allah, but told to Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel, not Allah himself), is that believers will go to a paradise "of gardens watered by running streams". He (they) mention that repeatedly throughout the Koran.

So much of what is taught is based on the interpretations of the people teaching it, and what their true motives are. Not much different than Christianity really, except you don't find too many Christians willing to blow themselves up for a paradise that consists of fluffly white clouds and zillions of angels playing harps all day long (for eternity). That would be enough to make me want to go the other route !

[singa-traz]

FACT the following country have problem with Fanatics Muslim?

16. Afghanistan

17. Malaysia (remember Aceh ?)

add more if u know

What's the relation between Malaysia and Aceh ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aceh

[sriracha john]

Fact!!.... The following countries have a problem with high-priced milk.... must be those d@mn fanatic Muslims responsible:

1. USA

2. England

3. France

4. Holland

5. Switzerland

6. Spain

7. Russia

8. Yugoslavia

9. China

10. India

11. Thailand

12. Sudan

13. Indonesia

14. Philipines

15. Israel

16. Afghanistan

17. Malaysia

18. Sri Lanka

19. Sudan

20. Chad

21. Egypt

[khall64au]

Moog... please excuse my ignorance but what was the political answer advocated.... 'The Political answer recommended by Deputy PM Chavalit should also work, but so far has been rejected by Thaksin'

????

[richard10365]

what about us travelling to the south.

do any of you believe it is not a good thing to travel to that part.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably about as safe as traveling to Iraq. Probably better to buy some life insurance before you go.

[bob/nyc]

So how safe is Hat Yai today ?. Seems the past violence has stopped for the time being . Also how safe is the beach areas of Songkhla ?

[kat]

I've been reading the Koran recently. Funny enough, a lot of what is said about it, isn't written in it (unless it's all in the last 10-15 pages).

Once I've finished it, I'll be going through it again to make note of the specific promises made, and what is not said/written (like the whole 70 virgins in paradise for who ever dies in Allah's name thing).

So far, the only thing Mohammed promises (er, make that Allah, but told to Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel, not Allah himself), is that believers will go to a paradise "of gardens watered by running streams". He (they) mention that repeatedly throughout the Koran.

So much of what is taught is based on the interpretations of the people teaching it, and what their true motives are. Not much different than Christianity really, except you don't find too many Christians willing to blow themselves up for a paradise that consists of fluffly white clouds and zillions of angels playing harps all day long (for eternity). That would be enough to make me want to go the other route !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I read the Qur'an, the Bible, and history by comparative religion scholars for several months a year and a half ago. There's plenty in the Qur'an, but it is not written in chronological order but from longest to shortest (or vice versa). However, most of the verses are categorized as Medina or Mecca, with Mecca - If I remember correctly - containing some of the most virulent verses. Everything's there, from the most beautiful, peace-loving sentiments, to the most wildly hateful that we have all heard so much about. This is true of the Bible, but a major tenet of Islam is that the Qur'an can never be revised or ammended in any way because it is the direct revelation of Allah.

But to understand this context, you should try to read a good historical background, as well. In addition, Islam is also defined by the Hadiths, or writings of accepted scholars that were close to the Prophet.

There are also different editons of the Qur'an, some which are intentionally edited for English readers. Some verses are not present in English translations that are present in Arabic Qur'ans.

[Sphere]

An interesting alternate view of Islam or its recently distorted version can be found here!

[craigt3365]

An interesting alternate view of Islam or its recently distorted version can be found here! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Makes me sick to my stomach. Amazing that many people can be so blinded by their religion that they forget they are human beings first. And religion has nothing to do with that. Unfortunately, there are fanatics in all religions...

[ozzydom]

So how safe is Hat Yai today ?.  Seems the past violence has stopped for the time being .  Also how safe is the beach areas of Songkhla ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Safe !Oh Yeah, only five shot dead yesterday and two with serious wounds

[Nam Kao]

>>Some verses are not present in English translations that are present in Arabic Qur'ans.

GEE I WONDER WHY???

[WISteve]

When their actions iinclude hacking to death a Budhist monk with a machete, I will have a hard time shedding a tear for them when they are brutalized in return.

Violence can get to that point.

They will destroy their provinces to "liberate" them from Thailand.

If there is a ###### I hope they burn in it.

~WISteve

[kat]

But I want to add, nothing is ever black and white. There are plenty of admirable things about Islam, and moderate, peaceful Muslims. I always feel extremely at home in Malaysia, and I traveled through Indonesia with another woman. We were harassed by the idiots, but there were also very ethical people that I will never forget - all Muslim.

We have these contradictions everywhere, but I believe moderate Muslims and Islam are going through a critical phase, where they must confront extremists, and yes, talk about reform within the religion.

This is just my 2 cents and not worth much, so please don't bother to flame.

[WhiteShiva]

So how safe is Hat Yai today ?.  Seems the past violence has stopped for the time being .  Also how safe is the beach areas of Songkhla ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Was in Singkhla for 4 days a few weeks back. Didn't spend much time on the beach, but walked around in the evening, and it didnlt strike me as much different from any other middle-sized city in Thailand - well, the air was a lot fresher!

Friendly people, cheap & good seafood. I'd say Songkhla has a great potential for becoming a nice family-type holiday resort town when things quiet down in the south.

[craigt3365]

But I want to add, nothing is ever black and white.  There are plenty of admirable things about Islam, and moderate, peaceful Muslims.  I always feel extremely at home in Malaysia, and I traveled through Indonesia with another woman.  We were harassed by the idiots, but there were also very ethical people that I will never forget - all Muslim.

We have these contradictions everywhere, but I believe moderate Muslims and Islam are going through a critical phase, where they must confront extremists, and yes, talk about reform within the religion.

This is just my 2 cents and not worth much, so please don't bother to flame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have not been to Malaysia yet, but want to...with my Thai wife. What kind of hassling did they do to you? My wife is a lot younger...so...that may add fuel to the fire. Just curious as to your experiences. She does not want to go as she does not like muslim people. I guess many Thais feel that way due to the problems in the South. Too bad....

[kat]

We mostly got harassed in Indonesia, as two women travelling "alone". Although Malaysia is definitely not without its contingent of men who view the world this way, the society as a whole is more tolerant. There are, however, conservative areas in Northern Malaysia. I always dress properly and don't do anything stupid.

I have heard stories of Thai women being viewed negatively if they are with a foreign male. It's best if you asked other foreign men who have been there with Thai women.

[craigt3365]

We mostly got harassed in Indonesia, as two women travelling "alone".  Although Malaysia is definitely not without its contingent of men who view the world this way, the society as a whole is more tolerant.  There are, however, conservative areas in Northern Malaysia.  I always dress properly and don't do anything stupid.

I have heard stories of Thai women being viewed negatively if they are with a foreign male.  It's best if you asked other foreign men who have been there with Thai women.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think the harrassment was due to a younger girl with an older guy. She is young and cute. She just attracts attention.

Indonesia was horrible for us. Even when my wife walked with me guys would yell at her, walk up and talk with her...she hated it. Some were very, very, very rude. Everywhere we went this was true. She looks Indonesian, so they would walk up to her and start talking. I was usually only a few feet away, and would walk over and ask what was happening. They would leave at that point, but would say things in the local language we could not understand. But we knew the jist...

This was on Bali and Lombok (literally everywhere on the island this was a problem). We were hoping it was not like that in Malaysia. Thanks for your reply!

[kat]

Yeah, that's pretty much the problem we had all over Indo. They would shout rude things at us, or try to touch. I dressed "politely" the whole time, and they still harassed us. My travelling companion was Japanese, and walked around in singlet tops even though I warned her. It was a combination of hassaling because we were women, spitting on the ground because I was Western, or immediately treating her like a porn object because she was Japanese (all of the porn there is from Japan, and a lot of Japanese women hook up with Balinese men, apparently).

At one point, right before I was pickpocketed by a gang of men, we caused a scene while getting on one of the buses because the bus guys were trying to feel us up. She hit one of them upside the head with a soda can, while I was losing it with them verbally. Let me tell you something, we had those guys on the run

And then right after we finally got on the bus, I realized my passport and money were pickpocketed on the previous bus.

Yeah, Indo was hard.

[craigt3365]

Bali is the first place I have been where western women are there in numbers looking for the younger, local men. It was amazing. Mostly Auzzies and Japanese women. I saw many, many, many older women with young Bali men. I guess the guys are called Kuta cowboys?

This is just the opposite of Thailand! Every bar we went in had a bunch of single guys just hanging out waiting for western (or Japanese) women. So...I guess you can't blame the local guys too much as this is what they are use to...interesting....

[thai3]

I've been reading the Koran recently. Funny enough, a lot

But to understand this context, you should try to read a good historical background, as well. In addition, Islam is also defined by the Hadiths, or writings of accepted scholars that were close to the Prophet.

Quite right, the historical background and the hadiths show up more clearly than does the koran the true nature of Mohhamad and the violent and duplicitous way Islam was initially spread. It will also show Mohhamad to be a murderer, a slave owner, bigamist and child abuser. Not what I say it's what islamic spcrture says. Of course the mullahs have an answer for everything including why if, it's the word of god, the koran contains so many contradictions. Apparently god changed his mind so the later suras override the earlier ones. This is obviously nonsense as they were all wrtten down after the death of the phrophet, or not long before depending on who you believe, so could not have been in chronological order anyway. Who is to say that the extemist view of islam is not as valid as the 'it's a religion of love and peace' faction? it's all down to interpretation is'nt it?-You have to question why god chose such a nasty peice of work who could not write down his orders in the first place, but then he does work in mysterious ways! -peter

[The_Moog]

Too true about Indonesian men hassling girls. But thats nothing to do with Muslim - just naughty boys.

My Thai wife confronted one in Yogya who was going...

"PHWOOARR, WOOOOOA ! WUUURRRR!" and making gestures.

And started telling him off in English.....he looked rather flustered and said sheepishly in Bahasa.

"I was just saying hello to my mate over the road"

Sure you were.

[kat]

"So...I guess you can't blame the local guys too much as this is what they are use to...interesting...."

uhm, excuse me?

First of all, we stayed far, far away from Kuta and the so-called "cowboys". Secondly, this happened all over Java, not just in Bali. That is an entirely different thing. On Bali, the Kuta Cowboys are responding to a pattern, on the rest of Java they are simply responding in their culturally -acceptable aggressive manner to two women travelling alone.

And possibly in your case they were responding to a woman they perceived as loose because she was an Asian female with a foreign male.

[kat]

Too true about Indonesian men hassling girls. But thats nothing to do with Muslim - just naughty boys.

My Thai wife confronted one in Yogya who was going...

"PHWOOARR, WOOOOOA ! WUUURRRR!"  and making gestures.

And started telling him off in English.....he looked rather flustered and said sheepishly in Bahasa.

"I was just saying hello to my mate over the road"

Sure you were.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I do think it has something to do with the fact that they are Muslim, within their local cultural context. There are so many expectations and prescribed roles of how women should behave or be seen, and travelling afar without a male companion is not one of them. But then, the cultural factor plays a role because Balinese men were also aggressive, but in a different way (and I'm talking aabout all kinds of men, not just the young "cowboys").

That being said, we did meet a few really nice men who helped us navigate through mobs of men getting on and off the bus, and wonderful Muslim females who gave us fair warnings.

[craigt3365]

"So...I guess you can't blame the local guys too much as this is what they are use to...interesting...."

uhm, excuse me? 

First of all, we stayed far, far away from Kuta and the so-called "cowboys".  Secondly, this happened all over Java, not just in Bali.  That is an entirely different thing.  On Bali, the Kuta Cowboys are responding to a pattern, on the rest of Java they are simply responding in their culturally -acceptable aggressive manner to two women travelling alone. 

And possibly in your case they were responding to a woman they perceived as loose because she was an Asian female with a foreign male.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hear ya. It is a big problem in many countries. Unescorted women are considered "loose". And ALL Western women are considered loose anyway. I blame that on the media. India is a great example. My wife constantly tells me how sexy the Indian women are. Yes, that may be true, but you would never seen them walking around wearing what they do on TV. Just does not happen (maybe in Mumbai, but not anywhere else).

So people see Desperate Housewives, or Bay Watch, and assume all of America is like that. Rich, living in huge homes, and beautiful. Right. All American's are not rich...nor beautiful. Just like everywhere else....

[taxexile]

sphere

An interesting alternate view of Islam or its recently distorted version can be found here! 

thats quite a site to browse through , the handcutting and legcutting videos are not for the squeamish though , although the backing music gives the whole gory scene a surreal overlay.

i wonder who's behind that site.

i also travelled through sumatra with my thai wife , the hassles got so bad we cut short our trip. had similar hassles in muslim parts of india.

had rocks thrown , got pushed around in the streets , by groups of leering handholding local lads in their twenties mostly.

there is no excuse for that sort of behaviour ,

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I do think it has something to do with the fact that they are Muslim, within their local cultural context. There are so many expectations and prescribed roles of how women should behave or be seen, and travelling afar without a male companion is not one of them. But then, the cultural factor plays a role because Balinese men were also aggressive, but

if their religious beliefs dont teach respect to women and to other cultures , then there is something very wrong with that religion .

i doubt if islam teaches that , so lets not water down and use phrases like "within their local cultural context'' and "prescribed roles of how women ...etc etc'' to make excuses for loutish behaviour.

yobs are yobs , wherever on the planet they are encountered.

from what little i know of muslim teachings , yobbish behaviour towards guests does not feature anywhere.

Edited September 29, 2005 by taxexile

[kat]

sphere

An interesting alternate view of Islam or its recently distorted version can be found here! 

thats quite a site to browse through , the handcutting and legcutting videos are not for the squeamish though , although the backing music gives the whole gory scene a surreal overlay.

i wonder who's behind that site.

i also travelled through sumatra with my thai wife , the hassles got so bad we cut short our trip. had similar hassles in muslim parts of india.

had rocks thrown , got pushed around in the streets , by groups of leering handholding local lads in their twenties mostly.

there is no excuse for that sort of behaviour ,

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I do think it has something to do with the fact that they are Muslim, within their local cultural context. There are so many expectations and prescribed roles of how women should behave or be seen, and travelling afar without a male companion is not one of them. But then, the cultural factor plays a role because Balinese men were also aggressive, but

if their religious beliefs dont teach respect to women and to other cultures , then there is something very wrong with that religion .

i doubt if islam teaches that , so lets not water down and use phrases like "within their local cultural context'' and "prescribed roles of how women ...etc etc'' to make excuses for loutish behaviour.

yobs are yobs , wherever on the planet they are encountered.

from what little i know of muslim teachings , yobbish behaviour towards guests does not feature anywhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is not a "watered-down" statement, but a fact. Religions and culture teach respect, but what we respect and our reactions to perceived lack of respect can be quite different. And the fact remains, that we were treated differently as 2 women travelling "alone" in Indonesia than many other places, including Malaysia.

I agree that yobs are yobs everywhere, but the perceived provocations are not the same.

Edited September 29, 2005 by kat

[thai3]

Of course islam teaches respect for women- as long as they are muslim women, infidels are not considered worthy of respect from my understanding of the koran. Yes there are many nice peaceful muslims millions of them, just like there were millions of nice communists in the USSR or decent people in Germany in the 30's and 40's but this is hardly a reflection on the worthiness of the belief system they live under and grew up in. Islam is a backward looking, oppressive and confrontational force.

Many of the present extremists cite palastine for there motivation. They seem to forget it was the arab nations who rejected the UN solution in 1947 and it was muslim forces who have illegally attacked (with one pre emptive strike) Isreal several times since it's birth with the avowed aim of it's destruction. Yet the Israeli struggle against this agression is portrayed as oppression and an excuse to blow up more innocent people in countries thousands of miles away. Lets not kid ourselves that it's just a few thousand Islamic hotheads, Islamic nations such as Iran an Syria have been involved in supporting terrorism for decades.

[kat]

Wow. Well, this is where we diverge, because although I am critical about many tenets of Islam - as I am with everything else - there is no way Israel and the West are without blame in the political fallout after the 1948 UN Resolution. This is a highly controversial and volatile topic, and I'm not sure that we really want to venture forth.

All I can say is that a full history can easily point to terrorist tactics on the part of both Zionists and Arabs long before 1948.

[The_Moog]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I do think it has something to do with the fact that they are Muslim, within their local cultural context. There are so many expectations and prescribed roles of how women should behave or be seen, and travelling afar without a male companion* is not one of them.

Yeah, I think thats correct.

They don't hoot at women wearing jilbabs.

(*or alongside a western man).

[Johpa]

Bali is the first place I have been where western women are there in numbers looking for the younger, local men.  It was amazing.  Mostly Auzzies and Japanese women.  I saw many, many, many older women with young Bali men.  I guess the guys are called Kuta cowboys?

Clearly you have not visited Chaweng Beach on Samui which is brimming with middle-aged European women looking for young Thai men.