Some Confusion About

[FireInTheSky]

ประเทศ // เล่น etc

why does the เ sound like a แ in these words.. I mean they don't sound like the เ in let's say เวร or เด่น or something like that. Is it because of the falling tone?

I havent ever read anything about a rule that changes เ to แ in falling tone syllables though but I just wanna make it sure

tnx for help

Edited April 1, 2011 by FireInTheSky

[FireInTheSky]

Oh and before I forget; same thing with the word

เก๊ก per example. The เ vowel is seemingly pronounced as being a short vowel (as opposed to the long เ) and again I have never read about any rule that changes long vowels to be short vowels under certain circumstances so this is a bit confusing for me

Most of the time I just copycat the way Thai people say it though but I just cannot predict these kind of things... are there any rules for it that I am just unaware of?

Also; I was reading this book; Beansprout & Firehead (if you like graphic novels its a fun read) and there is this dog who is called บุบบิบ and I got corrected by lotsa Thai people pronouncing it as บุบบิ๊บ instead while the tonemarker is obviously unwritten and just by rules it says that it should be pronounced as a lowtone -midclass consonant ending @ stopfinal.

I bet I am missing the gist of something but I haven't come across anything that clarifies this kind of stuff.. yet

Edited April 2, 2011 by FireInTheSky

[Peppy]

See this:

Post #8, by Rikker, is especially helpful.

Note that the sound in words like เล่น isn't actually changing from เอ to แอ, but rather to เอะ (i.e. a short เอ). To hear the difference, get a Thai to read the following to you: "เลน เล็น แลน แล็น" -- เล่น sounds like the second word here, but with a falling tone.

[FireInTheSky]

Super super tnx for that I really appreciate it. Just wanted to check if there was something that I didn't know (as opposed to them being so called "exceptions") and seems there was. Again: Tnx a lot!

1. Variation in Vowel Duration

Some Thai words are pronounced with a short-duration vowel although the Thai spelling would seem to indicate a long-duration. This most often occurs with words that use the vowel เ-- along with any written tone mark:

Here we go Thank god I wasn't off with my pronounciation in every day conversation but jeez I never knew about this rule until know

Edited April 2, 2011 by FireInTheSky

[Ecoli]

No. ประเทศ and เล่น don't sound like แ. Not at all. They really sound like เวร or เด่น.

[FireInTheSky]

No. ประเทศ and เล่น don't sound like แ. Not at all. They really sound like เวร or เด่น.

Just asked my girlfriend for pronunciation of these words;

เด่น is pronounced like เก่ง with a เอะ rather than a เอ

เวร is like เอ as you would expect it would sound

I will upload a recording of these words soon. How I understand it is;

เ in a mid tone word or syllable = เอ

เ in a word or syllable with a tonemark changes into a เอะ rather than an เอ

But ประเทศ doesnt have a tonemark but does have a falling tone syllable so it might change according to tone rather than according to tone mark.

My girlfriend is a native from นครปฐม by the way, maybe it might have something to do with that?

I will fix a recording soon done by several native speakers to put this stuff together and upload it to youtube so it becomes more apparent what I mean and the small differences

Edited April 14, 2011 by FireInTheSky

[Ecoli]

Maybe the way you learn my language is different from the way I learn.

Since she is from central of Thailand, I think you won't get weird accents.

[FireInTheSky]

I just get a recording online soon. Maybe I am just deaf and I hear differences that aren't really there I don't know

[FireInTheSky]

Edit: double 2; my internet got strange and I posted one post like 4 times.. sorry for inconvenience

Edited April 14, 2011 by FireInTheSky

[FireInTheSky]

Edit: double 3; my internet got strange and I posted one post like 4 times.. sorry for inconvenience

Edited April 14, 2011 by FireInTheSky

[FireInTheSky]

Double srr

Edited April 14, 2011 by FireInTheSky

[Ecoli]

Your girlfriend is right and her explanation is optimal.

(I just read over it. LOL)

[Ecoli]

Or read it over ? -*-

[FireInTheSky]

Well it is basically how I understood it;

I asked somebody else and she said it was depending on ตัวสะดก (final consonant), ไม้ไต่คู้ and วรรณยุกต์ (tonemark)But thats basically the same as saying it depends on tje tone because all of these influence the tone of the syllable or word.

Therefor my conclusion of

midtone syllable which includes เ . เ is pronounced as เ

Other tone syllable (due to a tonemark or ตัวสะดก or whatever) = เ pronounced as เอะ

The recording I am gonna present includes the following words spoken out loudly by a speaker from Isaan and my girlfriend from นครปฐม

ประเทศ เทศ เทศ เวร เวร เล่น เล่น เวร เวร

Edited April 14, 2011 by FireInTheSky