Sleep Apnea

[Luang]

I've just been diagnosed with 'mild' Obstructive SA after suffering from Chronic Fatigue for around 2yrs. I meet with the sleep specialist soon to discuss the results of the sleep study (home-based test)

In the meantime i'm interested to hear if anyone has similar experiences with OSA and Chronic Fatigue. I'm wondering how likely it is that only 'mild' Apnea would cause such 'chronic' fatigue which has really affected my life physically so much? Has anyone had their SA successfully treated and witnessed their chronic fatigue improve?

Also, i'm pretty sure an old nasal fracture is the problem. Anyone any experience here with septoplasty and it's success regarding eliminating the Apnea and fatigue?

Thanks in advance guys.

Luang

[JimmyTheMook]

I have high BP and was told sleep apnea could be a cause , so now "try" to sleep with a CPAP machine on my face but only get a few hours in before subconsciously removing it . But those few hours I do sleep with the mask on it does allow for more air ( oxygen?) to get to my brain and I wake up feeling more refreshed.

Has done <deleted> for my high BP

[sbk]

My dad has been on a CPAP machine for years (COPD) and loves it. He said it did take him a while to get used to it but now he can sleep with it on with no problems. Keep trying to adjust jimmy, my dad swears by his machine now

[Valentine]

I have been using an auto CPAP machine for years which helps give a vast improvement in my sleep. The nights of having to get up & pee 3 times have long gone plus it is a bonus for your partner who no longer has to endure the snoring & ensures she also gets a good night's sleep.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Valentine

[jimmym40]

Hi,

Can you please describe how the "home base tests" is conducted? I don't believe you can get an accurate diagnose without having the study done in a clinice or hospital. I know they have to hook up all kinds of wires and strap a device on your head to get readings. Did you do this at home?

If you didn't have a thorough sleep study, I'm willing to bet the doctor was just guessing solely on your verbal descriptions of your symptoms.

Please give us all some information about your sleep study.

Thanks.

[tim armstrong]

I have been using an auto CPAP machine for years which helps give a vast improvement in my sleep. The nights of having to get up & pee 3 times have long gone plus it is a bonus for your partner who no longer has to endure the snoring & ensures she also gets a good night's sleep.

Whats the cost of a CPAP machine? and which hospital/s or clinics in Thailand would anyone recommend for this problem ?

Regards

[tim armstrong]

I have been using an auto CPAP machine for years which helps give a vast improvement in my sleep. The nights of having to get up & pee 3 times have long gone plus it is a bonus for your partner who no longer has to endure the snoring & ensures she also gets a good night's sleep.

Whats the cost of a CPAP machine? and which hospital/s or clinics in Thailand would anyone recommend for this problem ?

Regards

[Luang]

Hi,

Can you please describe how the "home base tests" is conducted? I don't believe you can get an accurate diagnose without having the study done in a clinice or hospital. I know they have to hook up all kinds of wires and strap a device on your head to get readings. Did you do this at home?

If you didn't have a thorough sleep study, I'm willing to bet the doctor was just guessing solely on your verbal descriptions of your symptoms.

Please give us all some information about your sleep study.

Thanks.

Jimmy,

As stated in my post it was a home-based sleep study i.e a Polysomnography at home. A nurse comes to your home and straps/fixes a bunch of tubes and wires to head, chest, nose etc. This is all fed into a data logger attached to your tummy. She returns in the morning to remove. The diagnostic report is sent out a week later.

Whether this is any less reliable than a clinic study, i can't answer, but i doubt it (and significantly cheaper!). The report seems pretty comprehensive to me and is done by a Proff. Wish who is a sleep specialist. Ask away if you want anymore info.

So, anybody suffered Chronic Fatigue as a result of their Apnea? And was this mild or severe Apnea?

Thanks.

Luang

[jimmym40]

Thanks Luang for the reply. That's great to hear they have a home study, I've never heard of it and I've done alot of research about a sleep study. Did the nurse come from a hospital or a clinic? And what's the name of the hospital and the costs involved?

To comment on your problem. I know two individuals back in the states that was fatigued for a long period and they eventually found out that they have sleep apnea. Hope you get sorted out and you get back on track.

[agentpaddy]

If it happens, I apologize for the double post....dam_n computer....anyway, I replaced my cpap with an adjustable dental device that seems to work OK although I use a half sleeping pill to stay asleep, thus I nap too....the device cost my insurance about $3000, but it beats dragging the cpap all over the world. You need to see a special dentist for this. The one on TV for $10. won't do a dam_n thing.<BR>The only "cure" is to lose weight. The tissue in your throat has gotten fat and is obstructing. When diagnosed, I was "mild" and tired all day long.

[Tatsujin]

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Myalgic Encepholomyalitis (think I spelt that correctly) is something I have suffered from for the last 20 years but is not caused BY any sleep disorders, rather your CFS will probably be the cause OF any sleep disorders. Mine started with a severe bout of Glandular Fever back in my late teens and I spent over 6 months basically bed-ridden.

If you are anything like me, you wake up MORE tired in the morning than you were before you went to bed. I know that I have not slept well since I was first sick and that my symptoms really kick in badly after a few sleepless nights. A few Xanax usually does the trick tho.

[Sheryl]

As I recall, other than fatigue OP does not have any of the signs of CFS. No muscle aches etc.

The effects of sleep deprivation are cumulative. Thus even with mild SA, over time it could lead to considerable fatigue.

You won't really know what % of your fatigue is from this cause until you eliminate it. Hopefully all; time will tell.

[Luang]

As I recall, other than fatigue OP does not have any of the signs of CFS. No muscle aches etc.

The effects of sleep deprivation are cumulative. Thus even with mild SA, over time it could lead to considerable fatigue.

You won't really know what % of your fatigue is from this cause until you eliminate it. Hopefully all; time will tell.

You are quite right Sheryl re. CFS. May I also point out that my weight is NOT a cause - I train cardio/weights 5-6 days a week, have a RHR of 52 and VO2 Max of 47.

Anyway, saw the specialist today who suggested a nasal spray (which i have anyway, but still wake exhausted) for a week then perhaps CPAP if that does nothing. When i asked about a Septoplasty (nasal surgery) due to an old nasal fracture, he suggested the fracture was only 20% of the problem and would not solve the SA. Said that my tongue falling back was the main problem.

This has left me evem more confused. Why try the spray if that's not the main problem? Also, can he really diagnose the tongue as the problem with just a look into my mouth? Guess i will have to trust him on this. He also did concur that there was bone blocking the passage and that i have a deviated septum! Yet still feels spray/CPAP is more appropriate?!. The more i see Thai doctors the more questions and doubt i seem to have. Really do not like the idea of a mask for the rest of my life

[chopendoz]

Being aware that we are all different. I can only relate what happened to me and suggest the reasons why. I was told by a 'specialist' there was nothing wrong with me. I told told him 'well, you are the expert' so he scheduled an overnight test. A week later he stated that I had severe sleep apnea. As you can imagine, that destroyed any confidence I had in his diagnosis. Subsequently. I was to try a CPAP machine without much success - I kept tearing it off in my sleep. I spent a couple of nights in hospital under observation, but woke up every time a nurse went anywhere near me to check up on my status. I was then told by the 'specialist' that I was one of the few people who could not use a CPAP machine. My own opinion? Horses for courses. They suit some people and some swear by them but I have the suspicion that they are a kind of placebo - and don't really work. My reasoning is this (right or wrong) . As I understand it. a person with Sleep Apnea stops breathing in their sleep and catches their breath with some difficulty. It can have an adverse effect on the heart and is potentially life threatening. When using a CPAP machine, air is blown through the mask by a kind of reverse cycle vacuum cleaner and exits the top vent. I thought that they were supoosed to help you to breathe if you stop. I wondered what would happen if I deliberately stopped breathing. The short answer is nothing. I held my breath for as long as I could, but detected no change in the machine's operation. I wondered what the machine was actually achieving. I stress at this point that it does not work for me. It may work wonders for others.

Since then I have ignored the problem and my strange sleep patterns have become my norm. I sleep no more than 3 hours at a stretch - but that fits in with my life style. I recently lost some weight and enjoy more restful, deeper sleep (albeit still 3 hours at a time) so losing some weight does seem to me to have a bearing. I can well understand a person who is (say) 300 lbs, does not exercise and eats junk food, being an ideal candidate for a Sleep Apnea heart attack or stroke, but for a person of 'normal' weight should look for answers in another area. A couple of things come to mind - do not eat a heavy meal before you go to sleep or get up in the night for a snack. That's asking for trouble. If possible, sleep to a regular timetable. Even though I sleep for short stretches, I try to make it the sam time period each day. This, of course, is dependant upon work schedule etc. As for Fatigue, I used to get it occasionally. The feeling of complete and utter exhaustion that hit me at odd times. I might be sitting in an armchair watching TV and go to stand up and ... I just can't. Shopping at the supermarket and feeling like falling down - so tired. It would hit me for a few minutes then faded. It occurs to me that it is a by product of Sleep Apnea and may be linked to obesity.

That's my story - one man's opinion.

Edited April 3, 2011 by chopendoz

[TPI]

I found that my sleep problems were caused by smoking, smoking and smoking! Whilst I didn't have "chronic fatigue" (hyperactive thyroid!) I was waking up to 90 times a night, choking etc.

After a couple of years on the "machine" I found that a wife/girlfriend who pushes you onto your side when you start to snore, cutting down on overeating and drinking, giving up cigarettes and sleeping on your side seems to solve my problems!

I don't know if this regime will work for you but after 6 heart attacks I had to do something?

Good luck!

[TPI]

As an added thought, my specialist in Oz said that the problem is not caused by the tongue or nose or anything that you can have control of....he showed me the problem...my problem was caused by a flap of skin that dropped over the esophagus from the back of my throat, which he said was caused by smoking! (100 a day!) I stopped and the problem solved itself, sort of?

[Chris Lawrence]

Luang, I have both. I started similar topic about a month or so ago. Have a look!

SA can make you tired during the day? However if you have a diagnosis of CFS then this is completely different problem.

CFS is a debilitating condition. My diagnosis of CFS took over 15 months following treatment of a viral infection.

A CPAP machine will improve your quality of sleep, which I would recommend to get one. I found the test more uncomfortable than actually using my CPAP machine. However I have not found using the CPAP as a way to improve my CFS.

CFS appears to have a course all of its own. The best treatment for CFS is pacing the energy you have and not to overdo your energy levels. Also your sleep wake cycle is very important.

My specialist, is a leader in the treatment of CFS in Australia; my routine is to build myself up to be able to 12 hours of cognative and physical work for a week. My time frame for this is by the end of this year.

I have had CFS for over two years and have not been able to work for that period of time. The worse part about CFS is that one feel's like an orphan. Most people will say, just go for a walk or swim or get back to work, or its all in your head. Another thing said is yeah I feel like that every now and then.

Just made contact with another person I know that has CFS. Haven't seen them for a while, but they have had it for 6 years.

Post me if you think I can share any other info.

Be kind to yourself and have kind people around you. With CFS you don't need uncaring people around you.

[Chris Lawrence]

As I recall, other than fatigue OP does not have any of the signs of CFS. No muscle aches etc.

The effects of sleep deprivation are cumulative. Thus even with mild SA, over time it could lead to considerable fatigue.

You won't really know what % of your fatigue is from this cause until you eliminate it. Hopefully all; time will tell.

You are quite right Sheryl re. CFS. May I also point out that my weight is NOT a cause - I train cardio/weights 5-6 days a week, have a RHR of 52 and VO2 Max of 47.

Anyway, saw the specialist today who suggested a nasal spray (which i have anyway, but still wake exhausted) for a week then perhaps CPAP if that does nothing. When i asked about a Septoplasty (nasal surgery) due to an old nasal fracture, he suggested the fracture was only 20% of the problem and would not solve the SA. Said that my tongue falling back was the main problem.

This has left me evem more confused. Why try the spray if that's not the main problem? Also, can he really diagnose the tongue as the problem with just a look into my mouth? Guess i will have to trust him on this. He also did concur that there was bone blocking the passage and that i have a deviated septum! Yet still feels spray/CPAP is more appropriate?!. The more i see Thai doctors the more questions and doubt i seem to have. Really do not like the idea of a mask for the rest of my life

I just saw this.

Luang, who diagnosed your CFS? Training 5-6 days a week doesn't sound like CFS? If I swim 2 laps I can be in bed for 2-5 days.

You may have problems more associated with poor sleep quality.

As Sheryl said you haven't noted any other symptoms that are related to CFS.

Over the years I have also had 2 operations for a deviated septum. They don't work. The Professor I see does not recommend operations on the nose to fix SA problems.

You can hire the machine and see if it suit you. I bought the top of the range model two years ago and have no problem.

[Luang]

As I recall, other than fatigue OP does not have any of the signs of CFS. No muscle aches etc.

The effects of sleep deprivation are cumulative. Thus even with mild SA, over time it could lead to considerable fatigue.

You won't really know what % of your fatigue is from this cause until you eliminate it. Hopefully all; time will tell.

You are quite right Sheryl re. CFS. May I also point out that my weight is NOT a cause - I train cardio/weights 5-6 days a week, have a RHR of 52 and VO2 Max of 47.

Anyway, saw the specialist today who suggested a nasal spray (which i have anyway, but still wake exhausted) for a week then perhaps CPAP if that does nothing. When i asked about a Septoplasty (nasal surgery) due to an old nasal fracture, he suggested the fracture was only 20% of the problem and would not solve the SA. Said that my tongue falling back was the main problem.

This has left me evem more confused. Why try the spray if that's not the main problem? Also, can he really diagnose the tongue as the problem with just a look into my mouth? Guess i will have to trust him on this. He also did concur that there was bone blocking the passage and that i have a deviated septum! Yet still feels spray/CPAP is more appropriate?!. The more i see Thai doctors the more questions and doubt i seem to have. Really do not like the idea of a mask for the rest of my life

I just saw this.

Luang, who diagnosed your CFS? Training 5-6 days a week doesn't sound like CFS? If I swim 2 laps I can be in bed for 2-5 days.

You may have problems more associated with poor sleep quality.

As Sheryl said you haven't noted any other symptoms that are related to CFS.

Over the years I have also had 2 operations for a deviated septum. They don't work. The Professor I see does not recommend operations on the nose to fix SA problems.

You can hire the machine and see if it suit you. I bought the top of the range model two years ago and have no problem.

Thanks for your posts Chris. Think you may have misunderstood as i haven't been diagnosed with CFS. I have though been suffering from chronic fatigue for the past 2 yrs and just been diagnosed with mild SA. You are right that i don't display CFS symptoms and from research/symptoms i doubt i have it.

Next step now is trying to find out if the 'mild' SA is at the root of the fatigue. My fatigue is and has been with me all the time, every day which is why i have questions/doubts regarding SA being the sole culprit.. Is there something else? or perhaps the sleep issue is accumulative enough to leave me with such chronic fatigue?

Interesting what your doc thinks about nose surgery. I guess that's partly why mine was not too interested in septoplasty. I guess my next logical step would be to trial the machine and see how this affects my fatigue.

Regards,

Luang

[Chris Lawrence]

Hi Luang

SA will give a certain amount of tiredness or lethargy due to the fact that you are having a poor nights sleep. I would suggest that you move to the next step and try the CPAP machine. If you could trial this for say three months and then review how you are feeling after this period.

Part of my process over the last 3-4 years was to do exactly this. Unfortunately I also had a viral infection that introduced the CFS into my system abt 2 years ago. From what you have written I would think that guidance would be best sought from the sleep specialist.

Operations, I would suggest to put them off for consideration after the trail with the CPAP. Even after 2 operations the last done in 2001, I still have a deviated septum? and am now being desensitizated from allergies as my nose blocks up. This process is to take about 12 months.

Yeah stick to a plan of attack and review as you go. Its the only way to see if improvement will come. I am a quick fix type of person, but with this type of treatment it is a slow process.

Good luck

[Tatsujin]

Luang, I have both. I started similar topic about a month or so ago. Have a look!

SA can make you tired during the day? However if you have a diagnosis of CFS then this is completely different problem.

CFS is a debilitating condition. My diagnosis of CFS took over 15 months following treatment of a viral infection.

Just made contact with another person I know that has CFS. Haven't seen them for a while, but they have had it for 6 years.

Post me if you think I can share any other info.

Be kind to yourself and have kind people around you. With CFS you don't need uncaring people around you.

Feel free to PM me . . . as I said I was diagnosed with CFS over 20 years ago so have been dealing with it since then, it's not just feeling tired/fatigued . . . it's far worse as I'm sure you know.

Take care.

[Thaimaishoe]

Hi,

Can you please describe how the "home base tests" is conducted? I don't believe you can get an accurate diagnose without having the study done in a clinice or hospital. I know they have to hook up all kinds of wires and strap a device on your head to get readings. Did you do this at home?

If you didn't have a thorough sleep study, I'm willing to bet the doctor was just guessing solely on your verbal descriptions of your symptoms.

Please give us all some information about your sleep study.

Thanks.

Jimmy,

As stated in my post it was a home-based sleep study i.e a Polysomnography at home. A nurse comes to your home and straps/fixes a bunch of tubes and wires to head, chest, nose etc. This is all fed into a data logger attached to your tummy. She returns in the morning to remove. The diagnostic report is sent out a week later.

Whether this is any less reliable than a clinic study, i can't answer, but i doubt it (and significantly cheaper!). The report seems pretty comprehensive to me and is done by a Proff. Wish who is a sleep specialist. Ask away if you want anymore info.

So, anybody suffered Chronic Fatigue as a result of their Apnea? And was this mild or severe Apnea?

Thanks.

Luang

I can't say I was diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue per se, but I was always tired, I could fall asleap at my desk inside of 5 min if I did not watch it! That's with mug after mug of coffee in the morning. I also used to sleep till 10 or 11 when work started at 8 (that's a bitch of a call to make I'll tell ya!) I was sleeping through the alarm or turning it off without actually waking up!)

When I got the results of my clinic based sleep study, they started by saying they looked for 40 episodes of "waking" in 2 hours and that was what they used as the threshhold of APNEA. Then she told me I woke myself up over 300 times in 3 hours (I don't know why they let me sleep an extra hour over the 2hours) before they came in and strapped me into the breathing machine. They adjusted the pressure periodically, and about 6:30 began to just let me sleep. They woke me up at noon, and I was completely out of it!!! But once I woke up... I felt GREAT. Have not felt that good in years, and unfortunatly, I have not had similar results with my own machine, but even at that, I feel MUCH better now. I can no longer sleep or even nap without my machine.

HTH

[WarpSpeed]

Glad to hear that you finally looked into the possibility of sleep apnea being the cause of your fatigue and now you're finally on the road to correcting the problems after all of that testing you endured.. Glad to be of help ...

[ronz28]

Because I didn't want to use a CPAP machine, I had UPPP surgery to treat sleep Apnea a year ago and am not totally satisfied with the result. It did totally eliminate my snoring but I often cannot sleep more than 6 hours without waking and sometimes cannot get back to sleep. Still take a 30 minute nap in the late afternoon because I can- retired. To sleep better, I sometimes take liquid or fast dissolving pill of melatonin under my tongue and/or a cup of Celestial brand Extra Sleepytime Tea before bed but it has warnings for some people. http://www.celestialseasonings.com/products/detail.html/wellness-teas/sleepytime-extra

I have been referred for another sleep study but it costs about US$1000 where I live and am waiting on insurance approval.

[Richmeister]

For years I thought I had Chronic Fatigue Syndrome due to mylethargy. I’ve always been fit and healthy in some respect but since I canremember I’ve always suffered with extreme bouts of unexplained tirednessusually in the most inconvenient of times. Its only recently that narcolepsyhas been introduced to me. I’ve never wanted to be an under achiever and sohave battled through the best I can. I’ve even lived abroad FOUR times. Thetravel has definitely helped me identify key issues. I’ve found that I’ve beenbetter in warm climates and although feeling fatigued, not as drastic. I’vestill fallen asleep at work and even while driving a couple of times, but I’ve definitelynot been as depressed. The depression is quite common in me, but on my flipside I’m a very animated and larger than life character so socially it affectsme horribly. One day I’m high as a kite on life and the next day I’m falling asleepat work and feeling very depressed also, its kinda like there is no medium withme some times. I’ve been on and off Anti depressants since the age of 16 and I’mnearly 30 now. I’ve just come back from 2 years in Oz. While I was out there Irelapsed quite hard. I'd split with a girl at the time and my plans of emigratingover there was being squashed by the GFC so I fell into a nasty state ofdepression. I went to see a GP while in Perth and she started me on Mirtazapineto help fight the depression, insomnia and anxiety that I was experiencing.This did help after a month or so and I am still taking them now. I’ve been onthem for around 7-8 months. Since being back from Oz, or more importantly sincebeing back at work, I’ve noticed that my lethargy levels are becoming moreintense.

My underlying problemstill exists, the lethargy, and the sudden change in my energy levels. It’s allvery irritating. People at work have been telling me to look into narcolepsyand I’ve learnt so much in the last few hours that I am 100% convinced this isthe condition I have. Only problem is, no one could ever understand what I’vebeen through apart from those that know, that’s why I’m glad I found this thread devoted to the illness/condition/lifestyle of sleep conditions. I’m looking forward to hearing stories and learning fromyour experiences to which I am so familiar to myself.

[ronz28]

Has anyone used the Zeo (personal sleep coach)-about $200 or monitored oxygen levels with an overnight pulse oximeter about $115? I looked into these a year ago but saw some negative reviews that appeared to relate to manufacturing defects. Maybe they have cleared those up now. You can find them on Amazon and other suppliers but watch the warranty.

My guess is the main problem is the lack of adequate oxygen during sleep. So, I even ordered an overnight oximeter but the selling company refused to ship the order when I wouldn't agree to their terms that I accepted their "policies" that were not disclosed but probably make the product difficult to return for a refund if defective. Then I got my bank to do a charge back on my Visa card because the seller (not Amazon) charged my card but declined to ship the order on the oximeter. A couple of weeks later the seller also issued a credit too so then I had to call my bank back and explain they could give one of the credits back...what a frustrating waste of time that was.

Edited April 24, 2011 by ronz28

[ronz28]

I had a sleep study last Thursday and the results still indicate severe obstructive sleep apnea associated with significant oxygen desaturations so the UPPP surgery didn't do much good for me. My next step is to figure out which CPAP, BIPAP machine and mask to purchase and use.