Chiang Mai International School

[Gonzo the Face]

Being in CM for a goodly number of years, I have seen something similar to what seems to be happening again. Maybe DJV again.

I remember about 12 years ago there was an International School named Ake Panye (sic)located southwest of the city. There seemed to be parent vs school admin difficulties which resulted in a mass exodus of staff and ultimatly, I believe the school was restructured as American Pacific.

Later , now a few years ago there were serious difficulties at the facility known As Grace International School, which with quite a few of us are familiar.

This did concern me at these different times, not that I am a parent of a student there, but a lot of the teachers and families were customers of mine.

Now for the past week or so, I have had customers and students coming in to my place from the very nearby Chiang Mai International School. Some of the parents have come in ablsoutly livid regarding some of the changes or policies being proposed .

It seems to be some hush hush type of difficulty not to discussed too openly with non involved parents or outsiders.

My concern is for those affected, but moreso for my business which, in part to the close proximity to the school, would be affected should these difficulties resulting in actions that slow down my customer flow, which is already on super slow , due to present times and conditions

Any CMIS parents out there who may like to reply to any known or unknown difficulties at the school?

G

[Loaded]

I believe they are planning to relocate to a large piece of land next to Payap University on one of the ring roads if this has any relevance?

[slapout]

Relocation has been mentioned by Cmis administration recently, but apparently due diligence on some of their plans and the financing for same had had little input from those who contribute the majority of the yearly finances. Recent meeting of concerned parents and Cmis administration has resulted in some pointed question about transparency, income and expenses, added personal, different fees charged for students, and various other areas of concern.

The proposed relocation, proposed fee increases, personal changes, etc have not been addressed fully or satisfactorily to some of the parents. Thus it is a ongoing quest for answers and the desire for those affected to have meaningful input into decision making when the parent and students are affected.

[Loaded]

Relocation has been mentioned by Cmis administration recently, but apparently due diligence on some of their plans and the financing for same had had little input from those who contribute the majority of the yearly finances. Recent meeting of concerned parents and Cmis administration has resulted in some pointed question about transparency, income and expenses, added personal, different fees charged for students, and various other areas of concern.

The proposed relocation, proposed fee increases, personal changes, etc have not been addressed fully or satisfactorily to some of the parents. Thus it is a ongoing quest for answers and the desire for those affected to have meaningful input into decision making when the parent and students are affected.

God works in mysterious ways.

[zippydedodah]

I imagine, Gonzo, that if the school does relocate, that might affect your business. OTOH.. if they do relocate, the current location would be taken over by PRC... would that result in any uptick of your commerce? or is it mainly falangs that frequent your place?

[slapout]

"God works in mysterious way" and some may say "as does the devil".

It is the self proclaimed disciples of either one, who would appear to be working on a self indulgent itinerary that seem to create many of the real/perceived problems.

I would foresee only a decrease in business for Gonzo, if relocation does happen. Relocation of the older school children, teachers, etc. would be a given. PRC seems to want the facility for lower grade school age students, who seldom go off campus for lunch.

[orang37]

"God works in mysterious way" and some may say "as does the devil". It is the self proclaimed disciples of either one, who would appear to be working on a self indulgent itinerary that seem to create many of the real/perceived problems.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Slapout,

Well, William Blake would "resonate" with your metaphysics implied here (cf. "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"), in certain ways, but congratulations for the intriguing, evocative, creativity (via paradox of dialectic opposition) in this wonderful paragraph. And we'd dare ask, rhetorically, how many self-proclaimed non-disciples of no-entity are busy creating imaginary problems in an equally self-indulgent manner ? And, to paraphrase Abbot and Costello's immortal mantra, "Who's on first ?:" we'd ask: if there is an itinerary of solutions, where's the first stop on the journey you can get a good meal ?

I would foresee only a decrease in business for Gonzo, if relocation does happen. Relocation of the older school children, teachers, etc. would be a given. PRC seems to want the facility for lower grade school age students, who seldom go off campus for lunch.

Based on the old marketing theory that you have to make a noise like a cheese to attract mice, Khun Gonzo may have to "degrade" his offerings to include junk food offered at lunch-time only ?

But, think about a parent(s) of a child(ren) at CMIS reading this topic here (nope, we have no wee bairns under our scorched wings): would they perhaps avoid Khun Gonzo's excellent establishment now, for fear what they might discuss would be overheard, and reported here ? Is "mum" the word outside of Mother's Day ?

In any case, we wish all the joy that many customers can bring, for our esteemed Khun Gonzo, always.

best, ~o:37;

Edited April 4, 2011 by orang37

[PlanetX]

The parents complaining about CMIS can get in line with the parents at all the other International schools that are making changes

The titanic is sinking (atleast the end with the "welcomed" falangs)

Edited April 4, 2011 by PlanetX

[folium]

Which other international schools are making changes, and what sort of changes? Thanks.

[Puwa]

CMIS is trying to make the transition from a small international school founded to educate missionary kids to a modern international school with broader outreach. The potential for this change has stirred up all kinds of practical and philosophical debates. Practically, it's clear that the school needs a new business model in order to grow, particularly on the revenue side.

Some practices, like offering a significant tuition discount to missionary families, the cost of which was borne by all other families in the form of higher tuition, raise the deeper questions of the identity of the school itself. This practice was never really explained, and it comes to light as the school is proposing tuition increases to finance the building of a new campus. Parents may be willing to invest in the school's future, but for some, not at the cost of dragging the past along with it. (A solution would be to open voluntary contributions to a scholarship fund for missionary kids, or to raise money separately for tuition subsidies.)

CMIS calls itself as a Christian school with a secular curriculum, which is in all a fairly accurate description. It's not Grace-- not by a long longshot. What seems to worry many parents is that even without a religious curriculum, the influence of church institutions and personnel reflect the school's missionary origins more than its slightly more liberal intentions.

Nevertheless, in many ways CMIS is an excellent school which has managed to avoid the pitfalls that trap and slowly kill other international schools. For one thing, it's a true non-profit institution, which is a huge advantage to a school of this kind. No one is trying to maximize profits or get rich from the school. CMIS doesn't offer flashy facilities that confuse luxury with quality. It applies high standards for English proficiency in admissions and in teaching. It retains a pretty good faculty at modest compensation, with low turnover and qualified, experienced teachers. And despite the kerfluffle in this time of transition, it has a community atmosphere in which parents and students take an active part in school affairs. And even with the proposed increases, it's still good value for the money in Thailand's international school market. I don't know if any other international schools in Chiang Mai can make these claims.

[nikster]

I just stay away from Christian schools. Hence, no problems! Any business that does double billing doesn't get my business. I don't want to support missionaries either as nowhere is this saying more true: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[zippydedodah]

CMIS is trying to make the transition from a small international school founded to educate missionary kids to a modern international school with broader outreach. The potential for this change has stirred up all kinds of practical and philosophical debates. Practically, it's clear that the school needs a new business model in order to grow, particularly on the revenue side.

Some practices, like offering a significant tuition discount to missionary families, the cost of which was borne by all other families in the form of higher tuition, raise the deeper questions of the identity of the school itself. This practice was never really explained, and it comes to light as the school is proposing tuition increases to finance the building of a new campus. Parents may be willing to invest in the school's future, but for some, not at the cost of dragging the past along with it. (A solution would be to open voluntary contributions to a scholarship fund for missionary kids, or to raise money separately for tuition subsidies.)

CMIS calls itself as a Christian school with a secular curriculum, which is in all a fairly accurate description. It's not Grace-- not by a long longshot. What seems to worry many parents is that even without a religious curriculum, the influence of church institutions and personnel reflect the school's missionary origins more than its slightly more liberal intentions.

Nevertheless, in many ways CMIS is an excellent school which has managed to avoid the pitfalls that trap and slowly kill other international schools. For one thing, it's a true non-profit institution, which is a huge advantage to a school of this kind. No one is trying to maximize profits or get rich from the school. CMIS doesn't offer flashy facilities that confuse luxury with quality. It applies high standards for English proficiency in admissions and in teaching. It retains a pretty good faculty at modest compensation, with low turnover and qualified, experienced teachers. And despite the kerfluffle in this time of transition, it has a community atmosphere in which parents and students take an active part in school affairs. And even with the proposed increases, it's still good value for the money in Thailand's international school market. I don't know if any other international schools in Chiang Mai can make these claims.

As a concerned CMIS parent, i really appreciate your succinct and honest appraisal of the current situation. I couldn't agree more with your points and would only add that one of the major drawbacks they have is inadequate communications with the parents. The school board in particular, needs to step up to the plate and facilitate reasonable dialogue with the parents.

[slapout]

Puwa: much of what you say is correct, BUT, you reference to CMIS being a "true non profit organization" may be somewhat misleading. Without access to P&L statements, breakdown of expenditures, etc, the term "non Profit" may be as a result of accounting procedures.

When the Church owns the property and improvements, (present location and proposed location) plus take a cut off the top, apparently have funds at hand to finance a 300 million building project, ongoing income from several schools, etc, I would say that there is profit somewhere in the educational systems involved. Whether CMIS contributes to this profit, is one of the questions being asked.

Much of the info that has come to parents has not come directly from those who should know, thus questions which have resulted in what some would term, 'stonewalling', have brought about more questions and inquires into some of the practices of various personal. Many of the inquires and concerns have been expressed more than a year ago, and it appears some proposals and questions are still to be approached/answered.

[chaoyang]

If I'm not mistaken CMIS is owned and controlled by the Christ of Christ in Thailand, a non-profit that also owns Prince's Royal College, Payap University and McCormick Hospital, whose revenues together would certainly rival any business in Northern Thailand.

One man's non-profit might be another's cash cow. I heard questions about transparency and governance at CMIS when I first arrived in Chiang Mai in 1991. By coincidence I went to work with Paul DeMuth, whose three children were at CMIS at the time. He founded an alternative -- which would become Lanna International School . One of the very first students was the son of William Young, who is now being discussed in another thread on this forum due to his recent passing.

Unfortunately Paul died just as the school opened. A faction of the original Lanna group also started Nakorn Payap. At any rate, while CMIS is a fine school, its questionable transparency troubled a couple of long-standing members of the Chiang Mai community back then and those issues spawned two new schools that are now successful.

There's just a whole lot of money, power, prestige and "face" involved with what the Church of Christ in Thailand now has, and while Christianity might be a Western religion, this brand of it is Thai through and through.

[Gonzo the Face]

Let me insert something here that was the primary reason for the original post.

Some days back I had a couple of ladies come in for lunch. As it turns out they are mothers of CMIS students. One was an expat lady, the other a Thai lady.

While not continually being within earshot of them but passing by, I did observe that their was a level of agitation . Not between the two of them but rather like they were on the same side of an argument.

Well they say curiosity killed the cat.

In trying to be a reasonably good innkeeper, I had an opportunity to chit-chat with them after them having been here for a while and well into their lunch.

As it turns out, they were discussing, sometimes a bit more heated and loudly than normal, a meeting they had attended , some time previous, with a board at CMIS.

It appeared to be a parents group that were asking questions regarding tuition's , classes, teachers, special assessments and the such with this board.

The input I got, was that the parents , individually and as a group had been asking questions for some time and not receiving plausible answers. So it was set up that the parents would have a meeting with the board. Now as per them the board is made up of all expats, or at this meeting it was.

The parents came to the meeting expecting to be able to talk to the board, ask questions and hopefully get some answers.

Well at the opening of the meeting it was stated that the board would not answer questions from the parents group, but rather answer questions from a previously prepared list. One board member would read the question and turn it over to another board member to read the answer from a prepared sheet. The parent group audience was not permitted to ask questions or rebut any of the statements.

The two mothers having lunch were more than livid. The normally quiet and mild mannered Thai lady, appeared ready for war. She said she felt insulted and talked down to by the board. She came with the other parents to have a two way meeting conversation with the board, and perhaps face loss is what she was feeling. She felt she and the other parents were adults and didn't need to be read to from a prepared text.

Now my interest is as a non-CMIS parent, but more as a mercenary sob.

I do have level of business from the school and it would be a not welcomed event if civil war should break out. This on top of all the other battles we have been waging economically for the past few years.

I do hope all sides can get their [well cured humus] together and live happily ever after.

But I do think politics has been inserted into the question.... Politics not red, not yellow, but rather GREE D

:jap:

[Thakkar]

CMIS is trying to make the transition from a small international school founded to educate missionary kids to a modern international school with broader outreach. The potential for this change has stirred up all kinds of practical and philosophical debates. Practically, it's clear that the school needs a new business model in order to grow, particularly on the revenue side.

Some practices, like offering a significant tuition discount to missionary families, the cost of which was borne by all other families in the form of higher tuition, raise the deeper questions of the identity of the school itself. This practice was never really explained, and it comes to light as the school is proposing tuition increases to finance the building of a new campus. Parents may be willing to invest in the school's future, but for some, not at the cost of dragging the past along with it. (A solution would be to open voluntary contributions to a scholarship fund for missionary kids, or to raise money separately for tuition subsidies.)

CMIS calls itself as a Christian school with a secular curriculum, which is in all a fairly accurate description. It's not Grace-- not by a long longshot. What seems to worry many parents is that even without a religious curriculum, the influence of church institutions and personnel reflect the school's missionary origins more than its slightly more liberal intentions.

Nevertheless, in many ways CMIS is an excellent school which has managed to avoid the pitfalls that trap and slowly kill other international schools. For one thing, it's a true non-profit institution, which is a huge advantage to a school of this kind. No one is trying to maximize profits or get rich from the school. CMIS doesn't offer flashy facilities that confuse luxury with quality. It applies high standards for English proficiency in admissions and in teaching. It retains a pretty good faculty at modest compensation, with low turnover and qualified, experienced teachers. And despite the kerfluffle in this time of transition, it has a community atmosphere in which parents and students take an active part in school affairs. And even with the proposed increases, it's still good value for the money in Thailand's international school market. I don't know if any other international schools in Chiang Mai can make these claims.

While, strictly speaking, the school itself may not be a profit-making entity overall, a portion of parents are being profited from. That profit is being used to subsidize children of missionary parents.

From the point of view of parents paying full fees—fees not only sufficient to cover their own child's education, but a little extra on top to help cover the education of another's child as well—the school is decidedly a profit-making institution.

I fear that such an arrangement may be damaging to the school's much-lauded 'community spirit' as it appears that at least some parents resent this forced tax, at least in the absence of accounting transparency.

Perhaps it's time for CMIS to adopt a different approach the financing of the education of missionary children. From what I've heard, it is a fine school with a venerable history, and it would be a shame to see such an institution atrophy.

I understand they have weathered other storms in their 5+ decades, and one hopes they will successfully weather this one.

[jdinasia]

Thakkar, I agree with your conclusions but you are not using the word "profit" accurately. You are describing an inequity in pricing to the detriment of families not associated with the founding church/missionaries. Again I agree with your conclusions, that it is time for a new business model that is more fair if the school wants to call itself secular at all.

[Thakkar]

Thakkar, I agree with your conclusions but you are not using the word "profit" accurately. You are describing an inequity in pricing to the detriment of families not associated with the founding church/missionaries. Again I agree with your conclusions, that it is time for a new business model that is more fair if the school wants to call itself secular at all.

I stand corrected.

You are probably right that full-fee parents may be more disturbed by the inequity of the current arrangements than by any profit motive. I'm imagining a full-fee parent tightening their belt to afford the higher fees, who, when they drop their kid off at school in a second-hand Kia watch with discomposure as a missionary parent in a big, thumping SUV drops off their four kids that they're subsidizing. This can be aggravating.

What my imagined parent doesn't see is that this missionary parent is working for the same 'corporation' that founded and owns the school, and that his reduced fee is an earned perk of his missionary job.

To remove the sting that full-fee parents feel, the school could charge everyone the same fee. Missionary parents can then be paid a higher salary by the parent corporation to cover their added expense. The school can use the extra income for better facilities or whatever else that benefits everyone.

As to the school's bona fides in secularism:

Full-fee parents are paying for the dissemination of christianity in Thailand and the school helps funnel that money to the missionary parents. In the realm of education, however, and absent any evidence to the contrary, I have no reason to doubt the school's assertion that it behaves like any secular international school.

I would be interested to know if they teach Comparative Religion in a non-biased manner. And do their science teachers make it clear in no uncertain terms that 'Intelligent Design' is a bunch of crock?

[Dante99]

The different fees for different students happens at other international schools in CM, not just CMIS, at least one other and probably most.

The issue of financial transparency is an issue for all international schools in CM, isn't it? Has anyone, not a board member, ever seen any school's financial statements? And if they have, have they received clear enough information to consider it "transparency"?

The issue of profit or non profit is a very grey area. For example, a school reasonably needs to keep some reserves for unexpected needs and for replacement and repairs including reserves for building replacement. The appropriate amount for those reserves is a highly debatable question and if they were set at a high level there would be no "profits". There are many accounting ways to make an organization non profit.

I am not defending CMIS by trying to say everyone does it. That is lame logic. I do agree that the issues being raised are important. Recent legislation has required international schools to provide the Thai government with more detailed information and that could just possibly be a source of data for parents.

[Gonzo the Face]

All sounds like political economics to me, or maybe Wall Street Economics.

Profits can show as being down or non existant in many ways,as you say

Expenses for things that are necessary

Expenses for things that you would LIKE to have or have done

Expenses for thing that are made invisible, but are covered with a good story if you dont have to answer to anyone in detail

Yep Politics

[chaoyang]

The different fees for different students happens at other international schools in CM, not just CMIS, at least one other and probably most.

The issue of financial transparency is an issue for all international schools in CM, isn't it? Has anyone, not a board member, ever seen any school's financial statements? And if they have, have they received clear enough information to consider it "transparency"? <snip>

Exactly right, and a very good reason why profit and education don't blend very well.

But in the case of CMIS, the governing entity is supposed to be entirely non-profit and one assumes run according to Christian values such as compassion, honesty, equality, etc.

But this is Thailand. I watched as father Harry Thiel raised funds overseas to build a H'mong center across from the Princess Hotel, only to have it taken as the personal residence by the Bishop after it was complete (still is that today).

The books for Church of Christ in Thailand should be open, yes. But I doubt they ever have been or will be.

[Dante99]

The different fees for different students happens at other international schools in CM, not just CMIS, at least one other and probably most.

The issue of financial transparency is an issue for all international schools in CM, isn't it? Has anyone, not a board member, ever seen any school's financial statements? And if they have, have they received clear enough information to consider it "transparency"? <snip>

But in the case of CMIS, the governing entity is supposed to be entirely non-profit and one assumes run according to Christian values such as compassion, honesty, equality, etc.

One should not make that assumption based on the real record of behavior of Christian organizations. Assumptions are only useful if they are supported by strong inferences based on firm facts. Unfortunately integrity is difficult to find in organizations. I do think that there are some people of integrity in their organization but that certainly does not mean that the organization operates with integrity.

[chaoyang]

<snip> I do think that there are some people of integrity in their organization but that certainly does not mean that the organization operates with integrity.

Which is exactly the matter under discussion. You have presented us with a tautology.

[Gonzo the Face]

<snip> I do think that there are some people of integrity in their organization but that certainly does not mean that the organization operates with integrity.

Which is exactly the matter under discussion. You have presented us with a tautology.

Now for something rare here......

ablolute honesty

" How many of you , along with myself, had to google up 'tautology' ???

[Dante99]

<snip> I do think that there are some people of integrity in their organization but that certainly does not mean that the organization operates with integrity.

Which is exactly the matter under discussion. You have presented us with a tautology.

Sorry if I have presented something inappropriate. Please ignore it. I also apologize for using the word " should" which is loaded.

Yes Gonzo, I had to google it and I am still not sure what sin I committed.

[slapout]

The local CMIS administration has gone on record as denying the request for open books. They said that CCT would not endorse or approve this request.

This request was partially as a result of the CCT fee (franchise fee for want of a better term) was increased after a reported loss the prior year of the local institution.

The question of the christian values, honesty, compassion, integrity, and equality have been mentioned, but as yet no response to those who brought these characteristics up.

Yes, I had to look that word up, easier to say political double talk and everyone will comprehend. I do like to learn something new ever day so tautology is today's experience.

[chiangmaibruce]

Hmm. I thought it was about time we had another thread giving a round-up of the goings-ons at the various CNX international schools. We went to see the people at CMIS late last year and then again a few weeks ago, and we obtained the fee schedules on each occasion. The fee increase at CMIS in this period took our breath away ... something like a one third increase when you added everything up. The increase was highest in our case, ie. new to the school and not "supported" (under the old category system) or working for a missionary group (under the new and old categories). The increase for children already at the school was smaller but still substantial.

We are at NIS now and have decided to stay put despite the grumblings of quite a few parents there. We are generally happy with NIS, it's very close to our place, they are about to install a new headmaster, and we are optimistic that existing concerns and grievances will be resolved.

[Loaded]

Plenty of other options in Chiang Mai.

[Gonzo the Face]

In terms of US$ it would sound like it is approaching the level of some US Universities.

Could that be true?

If it is , no wonder some are talking of bailing out>

[Dante99]

In terms of US$ it would sound like it is approaching the level of some US Universities.

Could that be true?

If it is , no wonder some are talking of bailing out>

Just checked the school website and found nothing about fees. My barometer says with the mentioned 33% increase, the total could be around US$ 10,000 per year. I think somebody else could provide an accurate number which would be appreciated by many readers.