Chiang Mai International School

[Dante99]

the school is proposing tuition increases to finance the building of a new campus.

Does this make sense? If my kid is in grade 10, I would pay increased fees for 2 years to help build a new school that my kid would probably never attend? I think the school's logic on this would justify parents disagreement.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the school to borrow the money to build the new school, then raise fees to pay back the loan? New school should justify higher fees and those paying would be getting the benefits.

[PlanetX]

will any of that tuition money go towards retaining high quality teachers and assisting with the large cost of living increase that has happened in Thailand over the last year? I doubt it

[zippydedodah]

the new tuition structure calls for around 200,000 baht per year for a new student, less for a returning student or missionary family. That is for tuition, not capitol improvements (meaning funds for a new school). The board recently sent out an email saying that the capitol improvement fee will NOT be imposed (it was going to be 20,000/year), but they have not disclosed final plans on whether or when a move might be made to the Payap campus.

So, yes, some of the tuition fee increase will go towards increased health care benefits for the teachers/staff, etc...

[chiangmaibruce]

My barometer says with the mentioned 33% increase, the total could be around US$ 10,000 per year. I think somebody else could provide an accurate number which would be appreciated by many readers.

i will look for the fee sheet that they gave us and add further details if i find it ... though i suspect that I binned it though after we decided not to proceed. the total was made up of many separate fees including application fee, registration fee, tuition fee, capital improvement fee, alumni fee, various "deposits" and so on. in coming up with the 1/3 increase i just looked at the total cost to us to enter the school and pay the first year's <everything> under the 2010/11 schedule and under the proposed (though then still not fully finalised) 2011/12 schedule. in contrast i don't think any increase is proposed at NIS - the cost for which was roughly similar to CMIS for the 2010/11 year

Interestingly, the grumbling I mentioned (amongst NIS parents) also included issues of communication (poor) and transparency of administration. I'm a new chum there so not qualified to offer anything more than first impressions ... which are that ...

* the school does need to improve its system/s of disseminating information ... it's often either late, lacking altogether, or so ambiguous it's maddening ... any annoyance so caused is then compounded by the time and effort it takes to get clarification about any queries you have

* some parents appear to have quite impractical and unrealistic expectations of the degree to which the school admin should consult with them, and even seek their approval as to how the school is run. The same parents also seem to prefer to foster dissent and bicker with other parents (via the medium of the PAC) rather than roll up their sleeves and be part of the solution

So some tweaking needed on both sides of the fence, but with things slowly but surely moving in the right direction.

[lannarebirth]

the new tuition structure calls for around 200,000 baht per year for a new student, less for a returning student or missionary family. That is for tuition, not capitol improvements (meaning funds for a new school). The board recently sent out an email saying that the capitol improvement fee will NOT be imposed (it was going to be 20,000/year), but they have not disclosed final plans on whether or when a move might be made to the Payap campus.

So, yes, some of the tuition fee increase will go towards increased health care benefits for the teachers/staff, etc...

That doesn't seem too unfair to me, missionary subsidies aside. In the USA the average per student cost of a "free" education is in excess of 10k $USD per year and of course we all know it isn't really free.. Mostly paid for by property taxes, which non of us pays here in any great measure. Additionally a lot of people who work here get some or all of their income "offshore" to help defray these kinds of expenses for a quality education. If it were 50% or 100% (or higher) higher than that like some schools in Thailand here are, then I'd be the first to agree it's very expensive.

[slapout]

Lannarebirth; Its been several years since I had children in the US school system, so not disputing you figure, but I never paid anywhere close to that in property tax, nor other state taxes, combined.

As far as "a lot" CMIS parents getting money from offshore to help defray these expenses, I think you are mistaken. Those parents/students you reference are considered as a separate group (a higher fee/tuition rate than others pay) and there are only 15 by head count at CMIS.

Many parents and there are a good mix of Thai and farang have a small business, retired, etc. We chose to live in Chiang Mai for a variety of reasons, affordable International school costs, lower cost of living than other areas of Thailand, etc.

Some would say that we should have made better retirement, and financial plans prior to becoming parents or relocating to Chiang Mai. In the past 3 years we have seen tuition increased by close to 30%, during a world wide recession and a appreciating baht. We were told by some that, that would be the extent of increases and then another 3 year increase which will equal the past 3 year percentage wise, and other fees which would nearly double the figures which are being proposed. Many of the families have been tightening their belt and they feel the school should be following suit during these times.

[lannarebirth]

Lannarebirth; Its been several years since I had children in the US school system, so not disputing you figure, but I never paid anywhere close to that in property tax, nor other state taxes, combined.

As far as "a lot" CMIS parents getting money from offshore to help defray these expenses, I think you are mistaken. Those parents/students you reference are considered as a separate group (a higher fee/tuition rate than others pay) and there are only 15 by head count at CMIS.

Many parents and there are a good mix of Thai and farang have a small business, retired, etc. We chose to live in Chiang Mai for a variety of reasons, affordable International school costs, lower cost of living than other areas of Thailand, etc.

Some would say that we should have made better retirement, and financial plans prior to becoming parents or relocating to Chiang Mai. In the past 3 years we have seen tuition increased by close to 30%, during a world wide recession and a appreciating baht. We were told by some that, that would be the extent of increases and then another 3 year increase which will equal the past 3 year percentage wise, and other fees which would nearly double the figures which are being proposed. Many of the families have been tightening their belt and they feel the school should be following suit during these times.

Expenditures per Student: The U.S. average per

student expenditure for public elementary and

secondary schools in 2009–10 fall enrollment was

$10,586. States with the highest per student

expenditures: New Jersey ($16,967), New York

($16,922), Vermont ($16,308), Rhode Island

($15,384), and Wyoming ($15,345). Arizona ($6,170),

Utah ($6,859), Mississippi ($7,752), Nevada ($7,813),

and Idaho ($7,875) had the lowest per student

expenditures (H-11).

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_education_edblog/files/2011/02/NEA_Rankings_and_Estimates010711.pdf

I'm not sure when the last time you owned property in the US was, but property taxes have skyrocketed in the past 10 years. Also in the US even property owners with no children pay for public schools. I owned about 25 different properties there over the years, had no children and paid property tax on all of'em.

I do appreciate what a bite the cost of an education here puts on a family budget, I really do, and I'm well aware of exchange rates. I'm only saying I'm not sure a quality education can be provided for a helluva lot less.

If I had young children and was just starting out on the education experience here in Chiang Mai, I'd take a good look at Panyaden School. Fees are reasonable and I like their approach to learning.

Edited April 7, 2011 by lannarebirth

[chaoyang]

Relative to the general cost of living in Thailand, international schools are very expensive, but then the quality of education is also very high -- a bargain compared to what such schooling would cost in the US.

I know this from years of first-hand experience of involvement with international schools in Chiang Mai: The quality of education these kids are offered is much, much higher than what I received in the public school system in the US.

Still, it's a huge expense for anyone who is not an oil and gas worker or foreign government employee, and the schools should be transparent about why extra charges are added or general fees increased. I for one never understood the so-called capital improvement funds. Does one pay such a fee when renting a house so the owner can build a new one later? If they need capital for expansion, it should come from already retained earnings or by funds raised in the usual ways like bank loans, venture capital, etc.

Why after 50 years of operation -- and as a part of an enormous entity like the Church of Christ Thailand -- does CMIS not have capital or access to capital needed for expansion?

I also know the teachers are doing their best, are dedicated and work for less-than-brilliant salaries.

I believe all of the schools in the city do a good job, but I also think there is a serious lack of transparency at all of them as well.

[CMX]

When comparing costs of education to the United States, members are falling into an analogy trap. The situations are so vastly different that no comparison should be made.

Salaries are generally the principle cost to operation of a school; the pay here is a fraction, a small fraction, of that paid in the West. Where does the money go?

The second reason that no comparisons can be made is that in the West, schools not operated by the governments are accountable to the government for taxes on earnings or proof of non-profit status. Here, a lot of money, tons of money, are headed into owners' or operators' possession. Talk about transparency?

Each time a school owned by private parties builds a new or bigger campus, the owner is enriched by that much.

My own guess, given the gross figures, is that parents here are being charged a great deal more than is required to run the school; also, in spite of anyone's personal experiences, no school has published reliable figures to show that their students prosper in higher learning situations - sometimes in the West. We do not discuss only a question of transparency here, but a general absence of accountability.

Nevertheless, the differences between government schools and these "international" schools are reported to be huge - and thus a difficult decision for parents. It is a strong addition to cost of living here, and should be a disincentive to living here - if one has children or very many of them.

[zippydedodah]

i was informed ( and i think it was even stated publicly at a PTG meeting) that about 82% of total school revenues goes to salaries (and i believe that the distinction was even made - teacher's salaries)... even if it included the 5 administrators salaries, that is a very reasonable expenditure to my way of thinking. The CCT oversight board claims another 3%, so that leaves 15% for maintenance, equipments, supplies, infrastructure... etc, etc...

Hope that provides a bit more perspective on how funds are spent there.

I am not "arguing" one way or the other.. i am a retired parent with a very young child in the school and any fee increases affects my fixed income dramatically. However, i am willing to try and work with the numbers and keep my kid in school there.

Before retiring to thailand, i researched 3 other countries and their international schools (via the web). All of them had upfront 1st year LARGE capitol improvement fees (separate from tuition), and then a yearly requirement (lesser) for capitol improvements. So as a business model, i was well aware that this sort of practice existed. BTW... all of those schools that i researched, charged more than CMIS, for tuition and for Capitol IMprovement fees.

WHen CMIS proposed such a practice, while i did not welcome it with open arms, I get where they are coming from. And i really get all the objections to increases. I hope for a more transparent process and discussion as much as the next person.

[Gonzo the Face]

Why would it be so difficult to set a meeting with the board, administration and the parents, wherein a two way dialogue could be had?

Not a meeting where the questions and answers are scripted then written and read by the board to the parents who are not allowed to rebut or have further input at that time.

I think, I to, would feel that something was being hidden and would also feel like my intelligence was being questioned.

Much like the Thai Gov't not allowing any observers to monitor the border crisis with Cambo.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Gonzo the Face

[Dante99]

I think, I to, would feel that something was being hidden and would also feel like my intelligence was being questioned.

Not an uncommon feeling for parents talking to school administrators.

[CMX]

82% of a schools' budget going to payroll? Given the salaries compared to tuition costs, this should be easy to estimate. There could only be two ways, given the costs of tuition and salaries reported on different threads, that this could be possible:

1. Administrative salaries are very, very big, possibly because an owner is "salaried" or family are "salaried."

2. Class size averages are very, very, small.

Moreover, keeping facilities and equipment up to an even standard cannot happen on 18%, even with much cheaper labor costs. Books, copy machines, office equipment and other costs are not low here, and ongoing preventative maintenance essential.

Without facts, of course, I'm only offering the roughest of estimates, and based on experiences of the U.S. - a different situation. However, I worked as a principle member of a California school district's budget committee for some years. (Talk about transparency - members included senior administrators, trustees elected by the public, a teachers union member, and two nominated by the parents' association. Plus the entire budget was available to the public just by walking in the door and asking to read - or copy at their expense - any part or all of it. Also, the state ran careful audits annually, and sometimes more often than that, if there appeared to be problems. Of course, in this instance public tax money was the source of income).

Whatever else we may say here, owners are doing well, and the schools are probably far superior to the government schools - particularly if one wishes English to be in the mix or more modern methods of (interactive) instruction to be used (buzz phrase is "actively involved"). Parents are stuck on the horns of a dilemma.

Edited April 8, 2011 by CMX

[Gonzo the Face]

82% of a schools' budget going to payroll? Given the salaries compared to tuition costs, this should be easy to estimate. There could only be two ways, given the costs of tuition and salaries reported on different threads, that this could be possible:

1. Administrative salaries are very, very big, possibly because an owner is "salaried" or family are "salaried."

2. Class size averages are very, very, small.

Moreover, keeping facilities and equipment up to an even standard cannot happen on 18%, even with much cheaper labor costs. Books, copy machines, office equipment and other costs are not low here, and ongoing preventative maintenance essential.

Without facts, of course, I'm only offering the roughest of estimates, and based on experiences of the U.S. - a different situation. However, I worked as a principle member of a California school district's budget committee for some years. (Talk about transparency - members included senior administrators, trustees elected by the public, a teachers union member, and two nominated by the parents' association. Plus the entire budget was available to the public just by walking in the door and asking to read - or copy at their expense - any part or all of it. Also, the state ran careful audits annually, and sometimes more often than that, if there appeared to be problems. Of course, in this instance public tax money was the source of income).

Whatever else we may say here, owners are doing well, and the schools are probably far superior to the government schools - particularly if one wishes English to be in the mix or more modern methods of (interactive) instruction to be used (buzz phrase is "actively involved"). Parents are stuck on the horns of a dilemma.

...any parent wish to submit to this board that they try and come close to this level of transparency ???????

55555555

[slapout]

Just some info which is accurate for CMIS enrollment which can be compared to some of the figures given to the parents by administration (82% of school budget goes to payroll)???.

Total enrollment 450 +

28 students , whose parents are teacher/administration (go to school free, no numerical)

About 105 students of missionaries (charged about half+ of what the the majority pay)

15 students whose parents, employers pay fee (more than what the majority pay)

300 students whose parents pay an average of 150,000/year. (3 payment schedules. grade school, middle and high school)

42 farang teachers/administrators and 40+_ Thai teachers and support staff)

The term "budget" as used in relation to the 82% figure would not appear to have any relation to total income paid by parents. This basic question has not been answered to many parents satisfaction as well as many other questions which have been put forth.

Most of us compare CMIS to avaliable Thai schools and other International schools in Chiang Mai for a comparative cost, education, location, etc. I have had and do have children in CMIS and USA schools and would place CMIS on an equal academically level as most of the US high schools. No better nor worse, granted CMIS do offer a better foreign language selection, but core subjects are about the same. Teacher qualification, longevity, continual education and

experience would seem to favor the US schools, which is probably expected. I tend not to compare most things in Thailand to what I refer to as 'the real world', just so as my days are more enjoyable.

[chaoyang]

Just some rough numbers:

Salaries:

42 foreign teachers at 70,000 baht/month = 35.28 million/year

40 Thai staff at 5,000baht/month = 2.4 million/year

Total = 37.68 million/year

Tuition:

450 students at 150,000 baht/year = 67.5 million/year

Difference = 29.82 million baht/year

Percentage salaries = 56 percent

Of course this is wildly presumptive of all figures, but it does not include all the additional fees for capital improvement, registration, books and materials, etc.

If my calculations are off, please feel free to correct

Edited April 8, 2011 by chaoyang

[Loaded]

Just some rough numbers:

Salaries:

42 foreign teachers at 70,000 baht/month = 35.28 million/year

40 Thai staff at 5,000baht/month = 2.4 million/year

Total = 37.68 million/year

Tuition:

450 students at 150,000 baht/year = 67.5 million/year

Difference = 29.82 million baht/year

Percentage salaries = 56 percent

Of course this is wildly presumptive of all figures, but it does not include all the additional fees for capital improvement, registration, books and materials, etc.

If my calculations are off, please feel free to correct

I don't think many of their teachers are on 70K. 45 - 50K is probably closer to the average for International schools in CM (except for Prem which pays 100K plus).

[koosdeboer]

sorry something went wrong

Edited April 8, 2011 by koosdeboer

[chaoyang]

I don't think many of their teachers are on 70K. 45 - 50K is probably closer to the average for International schools in CM (except for Prem which pays 100K plus).

Thanks for that. As well, many students don't pay full price and Thai salaries may be on average well above 5,000/month, so I overestimated foreign salaries. Just wanted to get some sort of ballpark idea.

I would hazard to guess the 82 percent figure is inflated by some 20 percent -- unless CMIS has the privilege of paying some big salaries to administrators at the Church of Chris Thailand.

[slapout]

Another question which has come up is the employees at CMIS complaining that their health/hospital insurance does not pay the full hospital bills, etc.

This brought up the question, are these employees not covered under the Thai social security plan? No answer given from CMIS administration as of this date. Any knowledgeable people out there, who can shed light on this?

[cmsally]

Another question which has come up is the employees at CMIS complaining that their health/hospital insurance does not pay the full hospital bills, etc.

This brought up the question, are these employees not covered under the Thai social security plan? No answer given from CMIS administration as of this date. Any knowledgeable people out there, who can shed light on this?

If they have Thai social security then they have a card (which they have to show when they use it) . This card is renewed each year.

Do they mean Thai or foreign employees (although foreign employees with a work permit can get onto it too).

Surely the employees should be aware of what company is providing coverage when they make their claims or sign their contract.

[Loaded]

I think teachers are exempt from Thai social security insurance cover. I believe, but not 100%, that this is only for company employees. Some schools offer private insurance cover which may, or may not, cover the full hospital bill.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Loaded

[cmsally]

Wouldn't government teachers be included under the system. Or is there a separate system for govt workers, civil servants?

It seems a bit stupid that teachers would have to buy private healthcare. But I seem to remember that a teacher I talked to (international school foreign teacher) was offered 2 types of cover . I can't remember whether there was a different policy for different length of contract or you had to pay extra for better cover. But there was definitely 2 choices of cover involved in the contracts, because she asked me about it. But can't remember details as it was last year.

[Gonzo the Face]

Wouldn't government teachers be included under the system. Or is there a separate system for govt workers, civil servants?

It seems a bit stupid that teachers would have to buy private healthcare. But I seem to remember that a teacher I talked to (international school foreign teacher) was offered 2 types of cover . I can't remember whether there was a different policy for different length of contract or you had to pay extra for better cover. But there was definitely 2 choices of cover involved in the contracts, because she asked me about it. But can't remember details as it was last year.

From what I have recently been told, I think they are not in the Thai Soc Sec program. They appear to have an outside insurance program that falls considerably short of what the So Sec provides , at least according to those talking about it.

Anyhow I thought that anyone employed in thailand must be in the withholding so sec program.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Gonzo the Face

[letitbe]

Puwa: much of what you say is correct, BUT, you reference to CMIS being a "true non profit organization" may be somewhat misleading. Without access to P&L statements, breakdown of expenditures, etc, the term "non Profit" may be as a result of accounting procedures.

When the Church owns the property and improvements, (present location and proposed location) plus take a cut off the top, apparently have funds at hand to finance a 300 million building project, ongoing income from several schools, etc, I would say that there is profit somewhere in the educational systems involved. Whether CMIS contributes to this profit, is one of the questions being asked.

Much of the info that has come to parents has not come directly from those who should know, thus questions which have resulted in what some would term, 'stonewalling', have brought about more questions and inquires into some of the practices of various personal. Many of the inquires and concerns have been expressed more than a year ago, and it appears some proposals and questions are still to be approached/answered.

Missionary schools may have a place in some african backwater but I resent totally those trying to use schools to indoctrinate children into a particular faith. Schools should be strictly for education not religious bigotry and personally I would be happy if all well meaning missionaries with their paid for high life styles where refused any entry to this country or any more opportunity to spread their dangerous propaganda. This type of school went a long time ago in UK and USA as well as most civilised countries. CM seems full of well healed missionaries who like priests of medieval europe do very well out of their church while pretending to care for poor. Biggest bunch of hypocrites ive ever seem

[chaoyang]

<snip> CM seems full of well healed missionaries ...

Indeed they might claim to have been healed. I am in agreement with you, but I believe you mean well-heeled. I suspect the phrase comes from people who were able to have a luxury pair of shoes in older times.

[zippydedodah]

Puwa: much of what you say is correct, BUT, you reference to CMIS being a "true non profit organization" may be somewhat misleading. Without access to P&L statements, breakdown of expenditures, etc, the term "non Profit" may be as a result of accounting procedures.

When the Church owns the property and improvements, (present location and proposed location) plus take a cut off the top, apparently have funds at hand to finance a 300 million building project, ongoing income from several schools, etc, I would say that there is profit somewhere in the educational systems involved. Whether CMIS contributes to this profit, is one of the questions being asked.

Much of the info that has come to parents has not come directly from those who should know, thus questions which have resulted in what some would term, 'stonewalling', have brought about more questions and inquires into some of the practices of various personal. Many of the inquires and concerns have been expressed more than a year ago, and it appears some proposals and questions are still to be approached/answered.

Missionary schools may have a place in some african backwater but I resent totally those trying to use schools to indoctrinate children into a particular faith. Schools should be strictly for education not religious bigotry and personally I would be happy if all well meaning missionaries with their paid for high life styles where refused any entry to this country or any more opportunity to spread their dangerous propaganda. This type of school went a long time ago in UK and USA as well as most civilised countries. CM seems full of well healed missionaries who like priests of medieval europe do very well out of their church while pretending to care for poor. Biggest bunch of hypocrites ive ever seem

Personally, i don't see (after 2 yrs of my kid being in school) religious bigotry being promulgated at CMIS - can't speak for any of the other schools. What is do see of "Christian values", such as virtues (kindness, charity, love, etc), i am personally comfortable with being taught to my daughter. Actually, i think she gets more dogma from the other children, than she does from any class or teacher. But we can work with that....

I agree that if you throw a rock, you will probably hit a missionary here in CM... but i would not call any of the ones i encounter in the school setting as "well-heeled". Maybe i just don't get out enough, but then, i prefer not to.

Edited April 28, 2011 by zippydedodah

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Easter was fun, as I quizzed my daughter about the level of religious indoctrination she received on the topic.

"So.. Jesus lays coloured easter eggs right?" I asked. and why did the Easter Bunny die for our sins again?

In summary, the overriding thought was on painting eggs, and eating chocolate. So this particular Christian Kindergarten passed the test.

[lannarebirth]

Puwa: much of what you say is correct, BUT, you reference to CMIS being a "true non profit organization" may be somewhat misleading. Without access to P&L statements, breakdown of expenditures, etc, the term "non Profit" may be as a result of accounting procedures.

When the Church owns the property and improvements, (present location and proposed location) plus take a cut off the top, apparently have funds at hand to finance a 300 million building project, ongoing income from several schools, etc, I would say that there is profit somewhere in the educational systems involved. Whether CMIS contributes to this profit, is one of the questions being asked.

Much of the info that has come to parents has not come directly from those who should know, thus questions which have resulted in what some would term, 'stonewalling', have brought about more questions and inquires into some of the practices of various personal. Many of the inquires and concerns have been expressed more than a year ago, and it appears some proposals and questions are still to be approached/answered.

Missionary schools may have a place in some african backwater but I resent totally those trying to use schools to indoctrinate children into a particular faith. Schools should be strictly for education not religious bigotry and personally I would be happy if all well meaning missionaries with their paid for high life styles where refused any entry to this country or any more opportunity to spread their dangerous propaganda. This type of school went a long time ago in UK and USA as well as most civilised countries. CM seems full of well healed missionaries who like priests of medieval europe do very well out of their church while pretending to care for poor. Biggest bunch of hypocrites ive ever seem

You may be right in all you say and my bias wants to agree, however the scant evidence I've actually seen, having 2 missionary neighbors over the years would tend to dispute it. I'm not sure their denmomination (the women wear head coverings), I think Amish or Mennonite, but they are some of the nicest and kindest foreigners I have met here. Real "salt of the earth" types which just about any society would benefit from. Pretty sure they're not "earning" much either. At least not in this life. YMMV

Edited April 29, 2011 by lannarebirth

[chaoyang]

Personally, i don't see (after 2 yrs of my kid being in school) religious bigotry being promulgated at CMIS - can't speak for any of the other schools. What is do see of "Christian values", such as virtues (kindness, charity, love, etc), i am personally comfortable with being taught to my daughter. Actually, i think she gets more dogma from the other children, than she does from any class or teacher. But we can work with that....

I agree that if you throw a rock, you will probably hit a missionary here in CM... but i would not call any of the ones i encounter in the school setting as "well-heeled". Maybe i just don't get out enough, but then, i prefer not to.

Yes, it is probably useful to distinguish between the school itself and the missionary families who send their kids to study. I have known a number of CMIS teachers, and they were not religious zealots, nor well-heeled. They were professional, trained teachers who make a passably good salary by Chiang Mai standards.

But I have also seen the missionaries driving new SUVs who eat out at Western restaurants with their four kids and order generously from the pricey menu. Indeed, money appears no object, and if you squinted your eyes a bit you would think you were back in Kansas. I can't say what church they represented, though.