Two Swedes Electrocuted In Krabi

[Briggsy]

In line with the norms of Thai reporting and non-transparency, the following key facts are not included in the story and do not appear to have been provided to the press by the Krabi police:-

The name of the hotel

The name of the owning group of the hotel

The name of the family that controls this owning group

The name of the company that did the electrical installation

The name of the electrician that did the electrical installation

It might "damage their reputations" if these entered the public domain.

[weary]

A little creative Googling reveals that Swedish tabloids have published at least the name of the hotel.

[Crossy]

OK Ladies and Gentlemen, we've had some interesting opinions and advice (some good, some iffy and some downright wrong).

Sadly we are unlikely ever to discover what really happened to the unfortunate couple in the OP, it's quite possible that the torrential rain and flooding was a factor, the real evidence will have long been removed. RIP

I'm posting this as a long time member of the IEE (the people who gave us the UK wiring regulations) and a qualified electrical and electronic engineer although I am no longer involved with domestic power installations (other than my own). This being the case I post from a British perspective, I know there are other sparkies of assorted nationalities on this board and I beg their indulgence.

We have two situations being discussed:-

1. How to make sure your home installation is safe.

2. How to ensure that, as a holidaymaker, your hotel installation is safe to use.

Let's take the easy one first, your home, as you have some control over what goes on even if you rent.

Some points:-

1. It is VITAL that your water heater is grounded to a proper ground, whether this is a ground spike or a building ground doesn't matter (we'll come to older buildings with no electrical ground in a bit). I've not come across a water heater that does not require a ground (although if someone has a link to one I'd appreciate, it would be indicated as 'Class-2' or 'Double Insulated').

2. It is important that the heater is protected by an RCD (Safe-T-Cut) in the distribution board, the units that are built into the heater just do not provide sufficient protection (but are obviously better than nothing). The RCD can be a whole house unit or just protecting the heater and other wet room supplies, it must have a trip current of 30mA or less (better). You must test your RCD regularly by pressing the test button, these things can and do stick if not operated regularly.

3. It's common sense to keep switches and the heater itself outside the splash area of the shower unless the unit is specifically intended to be located in the splash area as all electric showers sold in the UK are required to be.

4. If you or your sparks have access to an installation tester (not a cheap bit of kit ) you can actually verify that what's been installed is safe.

Back to our old appartment with no electrical ground. Firstly install an RCD (Safe-T-Cut), this is non-negotiable! We really need to provide some sort of ground, even an imperfect ground is better than nothing so look for metallic water pipes (older buildings like ours have galvanised supply pipes), or maybe there's structural steel you can access, even the re-bar will provide a ground. Whatever you choose you'll need to verify that it's at least a reasonable ground, in the absence of a proper tester a low wattage lamp connected to your ground and the live wire (care) will either light up (if you've not got an RCD) or trip the RCD (if you have).

Now for the hard bit, how to avoid being fried whilst on vacation.

Obviously we have little or no control over the installation, and even high class (expensive) establishments are not immune (I've had shocks in the Athens Hilton [not from a water heater mind]).

1. If the room has one of those mini water heaters built into the shower head I would avoid using it, period!!! (even if it has an RCD). These things are a disaster waiting to happen, cold showers are bracing and safe.

2. At the very minimum invest in a volt-stick tester or even a neon-screwdriver. With these you can verify (with the shower operating) that none of the metallic bits have a potential shock lurking. Does anybody need warning not to get the tester wet whilst testing?

3. You are unlikely to get a shock along a stream of water (admirably demostrated by Mythbusters) so avoid touching anything metallic whilst in the shower, if the shower head has a metallic pipe, leave the head on its bracket. Watch out for a metallic shower drain, whilst unlikely to actually become live (stranger things have happened) they can provide a good ground path for a shock current which would otherwise be non-lethal (why not put a rubber bath mat over it).

4. Standing in / on something non-conducting (bucket, stool, rubber mat) may improve safety, I've no figures but it can't hurt unless you factor in the hazard of falling off the wet stool.

5. Turn on / off the shower before getting in / after getting out, this will also help avoid touching anything potentially live.

There are a number of threads on electrical safety in the DIY forum http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/forum/124-do-it-yourself-housing-forum/ or have a look here http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/index.html . This being the case I would ask that members peruse those locations and restrict this thread to actual news on the sad demise of the Swedish couple.

[Ulysses G.]

2. It is important that the heater is protected by an RCD (Safe-T-Cut) in the distribution board, the units that are built into the heater just do not provide sufficient protection (but are obviously better than nothing). The RCD can be a whole house unit or just protecting the heater and other wet room supplies, it must have a trip current of 30mA or less (better). You must test your RCD regularly by pressing the test button, these things can and do stick if not operated regularly.

Is this the smae as the ELB checker button on my unit? I do not understand what it checks or how it protects you.

[Jdietz]

It compares the current going in the unit on one wire with the current going out again on the other wire. If they are not the same, it trips.

It will not be the same if some current leaks out by another path (i.e. through you to earth).

This will -not- protect you from touching both wires, that will light you up quite nicely and the ELB won't see a thing. It is however a great protection against most faults that develop in these shower units. (break in the heating element, energizing the lot; exposed phase wire)

But yes DO check if it works before stepping under, the test button induces a tiny current in the sense wire, causing an imbalance, and it -should- trip. if it doesn't or takes a while because of soap or other crud built-up (I've seen it happen), push it in and trip it a few times until it trips reliably. Or take a cold shower instead with it the trip open (and the unit preferably switched off outside)

[Ulysses G.]

Thank you. It tripped. (Now I just have to figure out how to get it to work again).

[Jdietz]

On most units I've seen the reset switch pops out of the bottom of the unit, it's spring-loaded (for quicker switch-off), just gently latch it back in place.

[Ulysses G.]

I'm sure that no one will be surprised that the person who installed mine blocked access to the reset switch, so now I can't turn it back on. I'm sure glad that it is hot season.

[Jdietz]

Be very happy you tested it, he could as easily have blocked it from popping out....

[swillowbee]

FWIW

The nasty system is when your monkey hammers a masonary nail into a concrete column and then wraps the earth wire around. Wouldnt put my money on that one but its common practice.

So like the coconut monkeys in Samui, you have a monkey doing your electrics?

... average Thai IQ is 87 ... IQ at 70 is considered mentally retarded ... fully 8% of all Thais score at IQ of 70, or less (versus international average 1.8%) ... and 16% of all Thais score within 5 points of 70.

... the cause is attributable to a widespread deficiency of dietary iodine, necessary for fetal brain development.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/07/19/headlines/headlines_30009114.php

... driving masonry nails into concrete columns and wrapping ground wire around it is a job typically taken by Thais at the lower than average end of their IQ scale.

... you get the picture?

[MaiChai]

You know what the Thai answer would be to the 9 odd pages of comments/fears on this thread: you too serious, don't worry. It will be ok.

I just wired up the girlfriends house a couple of weeks ago, and returned to it this weekend to find a mouse had setup home in the distribution unit and was obviously getting shocks, and it decided to bite back at the wiring. So had to fix all that and try and make the unit inaccessible for small creatures. You really have everything against you here?

I remember staying in a National Parks bungalow a couple of years back and they had gas shower heaters. It was quite off putting seeing such a large flame light up to warm water for a shower! Gas explosions came to mind!

[simon43]

A useful tip that might help you to gauge any risk of electrocution is to check the shower hoses. Typically, there will be a cold water inlet hose coming from a wall-mounted on/off tap, and then there will be the hot water outlet hose to the shower head.

The cheapest hoses are plastic without any metal casing, (and hence reasonably non-conductive to electricity). The more expensive shower hoses and fittings will be (conductive) metal, thus increasing the risk of electrocution if a fault is present.

So it seems, (slightly tongue in cheek), for a safe hotel shower, do not book the 5 star hotels with their masses of highly expensive metal shower fittings, and do not book the 1 star guesthouses which are relying upon antiquated 'geyser' systems to heat their water. Look for modern instant hot water shower units with built-in ELBs and plastic hoses.

Simon

[EnSvenskTiger]

FWIW

The nasty system is when your monkey hammers a masonary nail into a concrete column and then wraps the earth wire around. Wouldnt put my money on that one but its common practice.

So like the coconut monkeys in Samui, you have a monkey doing your electrics?

... average Thai IQ is 87 ... IQ at 70 is considered mentally retarded ... fully 8% of all Thais score at IQ of 70, or less (versus international average 1.8%) ... and 16% of all Thais score within 5 points of 70.

... the cause is attributable to a widespread deficiency of dietary iodine, necessary for fetal brain development.

http://www.nationmul...es_30009114.php

... driving masonry nails into concrete columns and wrapping ground wire around it is a job typically taken by Thais at the lower than average end of their IQ scale.

... you get the picture?

If that is true it would explain not only the electric situation but also a lot about the traffic in Thailand!

tiger

[JohanB]

Epilogue and last "official statement" from the Swedish tabloid Expressen.

Unaltered translation by Google:

"Swedish couple died in the shower - no need to clarify

AO NANG. In here, killed two young Swedes, when the shower was energized. But no criminal investigation will not be launched, said police sources for Expressen. The equipment in the shower of death has already been dismantled and the evidence is destroyed. - It is common that hotels pay the police to avoid criminal investigations, says while a Swedish lived several years in the country.

On the hotel grounds Mild Bungalows, on the outskirts of the resort of Ao Nang in Krabi Province, Thailand, would no longer talk about the tragedy on Saturday.

When Expressen yesterday visited the hotel staff first tried to joke away the event.

- That's nothing to write about. Do not want to rent a room instead? asked a hotel employee at the reception.

Trims shrubs and smiles

Outside the bungalow A2, where the Swedes from a village in Jämtland lived, ongoing horticultural activities as if nothing had happened. A man cut the bushes around the house and smiles.

Just hours after the accident on Saturday left a large number of Scandinavians hotel.

The couple - a 25-year-old man and a 23-year-old woman - died almost immediately when they stood in the live shower. Their Swedish friends, who both in the bungalow next door, heard a scream. Then there was silence.

The couple lay dead in the shower when his friends rushed in - and the water on the floor was still live.

Confiscated equipment

According to hotel staff were the local police on the ground less than 20 minutes after the accident, and it was quickly decided that the equipment in the current bungalow would be demolished and confiscated.

A Swedish lived in Thailand for several years testifies to Expressen that it often happens that people die of live showers. It is only when the tourists hit by the attention of the media abroad.

- In Thailand, are almost always the electric water heater is mounted inside the shower-cabin. Only major hotels are centrally heated water, the source said.

No requirements

He asserts that hotels rarely use grounded power supply and that there is no requirement that technicians install water heaters for example, in the showers.

- Normally, you see the earth wire that is mounted externally on the water heater.

The same source reports that hotels are insured against crime investigation in each month to pay for local police officers.

- In all probability, have called their police when this happened because he must have

charge of the investigation, and the fault lies with all certainty in how the equipment was installed, not the equipment itself. So the evidence is now cleared away by the police, "said the Swede.

Pure accident

When Expressen, yesterday visited the police office in Ao Nang said the officer of the watch the event on the hotel grounds Mild Bungalows was a pure accident.

- There has been no criminal investigation. It was an accident.

As tourists were involved, he refers to his then boss, Big Boss, the police office in Krabi, but nobody wanted to go in response to questions.

"Enough with the questions now"

Express searched yesterday hotel owner, a Chinese businessman, on several occasions. The staff at Mild Bungalows stated first that he was on a business meeting in Krabi. But when asked if he was willing to answer questions by phone, the answer was:

- It's unfair that he gets the blame for what has happened. Therefore he does not want to talk. Suffice it matters now.

The hotel owner has been in the media denied that the shower would become energized. He also requested that the bodies of the young Swedes will remain in the country until the investigation is completed.

By Niklas Svensson

April 6, 2011 at 06:54 "

[BuckarooBanzai]

Epilogue and last "official statement" from the Swedish tabloid Expressen.

Unaltered translation by Google:

"Swedish couple died in the shower - no need to clarify

AO NANG. In here, killed two young Swedes, when the shower was energized. But no criminal investigation will not be launched, said police sources for Expressen. The equipment in the shower of death has already been dismantled and the evidence is destroyed. - It is common that hotels pay the police to avoid criminal investigations, says while a Swedish lived several years in the country.

Thanks for the update JohanB.

[MaiChai]

What can one say about anyone taking responsibility? Life is cheap in Asia and the mindset is that if was going to happen then its your gam (karma) and thus there is nothing that can be done! Low level of education, combined with a mai phen rai attitude and burying you head in the sand. We all are at some risk living here (for alot of reasons) and thus living here knowing the risks and trying to avoid them is probably the best approach. Nothing is really going to change here quickly, no matter how many farangs complain about things (and we look arrogant in doing so as they can't see the issue). TiT.

May they rest in peace.

[Seismic]

Make sure a proper electrician install your unit. (Yes, that is harder arranging than one would think.)

I still haven't found one in Thailand unfortunately after 27 years and several house builds and wiring jobs.

We recently installed a hot water heater and rain shower in the bathroom and the breaker kept tripping. Several electricians later and the problem was still ongoing so I asked an English guy I knew with a modicum of experience and he fixed it within hours.

I have had electricians from EGAT several times to my house and they are basically useless, one couldnt even use my digital meter. Its amazing to me that I call a technician and I have to explain the problem to him.

try this simple test, when I guy arrives at your house to fix electrics, ask him what V X I =, if he doesnt know, show him the door.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Make sure a proper electrician install your unit. (Yes, that is harder arranging than one would think.)

I still haven't found one in Thailand unfortunately after 27 years and several house builds and wiring jobs.

We recently installed a hot water heater and rain shower in the bathroom and the breaker kept tripping. Several electricians later and the problem was still ongoing so I asked an English guy I knew with a modicum of experience and he fixed it within hours.

I have had electricians from EGAT several times to my house and they are basically useless, one couldnt even use my digital meter. Its amazing to me that I call a technician and I have to explain the problem to him.

try this simple test, when I guy arrives at your house to fix electrics, ask him what V X I =, if he doesnt know, show him the door.

Volts x Amps? Watts that?

[scorpio2369]

The electrical industry in Thailand is to blame here.....

The industry has the understanding and the knowledge for keeping people safe. The industry implements safety requirements inspections and upgrades, since they have the knowledge and understanding and the consumer does not even know why it is there, but it is, because the industry knows it is proven to be a safer design. The industry studies electricity for it to be safer and to reduce it's costs to produce, the consumer does not. The industry has the ability to affect manufactures, policies and installations at a much larger scale then the consumer for the safety of the consumer.

When ever you have to touch something that is attached to electricity and the casing is metal, or it could pose the potential for electrical shock, it should have a 'green' ground wire attached to the metal housing going to earth (for a 2 prong plug). Understanding electricity and how it works is the basis of a good electrician and the industy. There is a code for wiring of a house in Thailand (read the post to find the information), there has to be, or many more people would be getting killed by electricity. Unfortunately the people that should be understanding the code and enforcing the code are the electricians and the electrical industry, not the consumer. The consumer looks towards the electricians and the industry for the proper installation and safety of THEIR PRODUCT. The industry should be enforcing the advancements for safety in the house or in hotels etc. If the electricians do not understand the code or are not following the code, then it is up to the industry to do something about it. I mean we are talking about water heaters using 110/220VAC in a shower with a power strip(really?) that really shows the ignorance of cosumers towards electricity and the blind eye the industry is allowing the consumers to put themselves in danger with electricity. If these are the standards that are accepted by the industry, then it is just a matter of time, for this to happen again and again. I would think that if people read the instructions, it just might say to turn ON the hot water heater, heat up the water and turn OFF power TO the unit BEFORE you turn on the water. But most likely the instructions are unreadable or are missing, or the consumer does not decide to read them (they have that right to not read the instructions), so it falls back to the the industry to impose more safety devices or higher regulations on the consumer (for the consumers own safety) that automatically turns off power to the unit when the water is turned on or removing electrical source away from water and preventing power to the unit while in use or anything to prevent customers from coming in contact with electricity. It takes on the responsibility that the electricians are installing the units properly with procedures and guidelines. It is the industries RESPONSIBILITY to maintain safety. But since the industry has not enforced the safety standards on these systems or additional measures to prevent electrical shock to people, then the industry is clearly failing. The industry has failed to impose regulations on the electricians to identify the short falls of the installations (a power cord? REALLY??). If the industry allows the consumer the ability to keep power to the unit while they are in the shower, then the consumer will most likely do this, I would think it is safe. Why not (if it was unsafe then the industry would obviously prevent me from doing this, right, they are the smarter of the two) The customer trusts the industry for their safety, since the industry SHOULD be more knowledgeable of the two (the industry studies the systems and imposes safety where safety needs to be imposed). The industry IS RESPONSIBLE for the safety of it's consumers. That is obviously not happening. Just my thoughts....

http://www.thaivisa....587-electrical/

http://www.pea.co.th.../groundwire.pdf

[brahmburgers]

I switched from electric HW (several units) to propane and/or solar. Did it with several units and gave the electric units away. The solar is for pre-heat or, in some showers I've set up, is the complete heat element. Solar heated water is a lot cheaper than you might think it is, especially if you use re-cycled water holding tanks.

If Thailand had a countrywide campaign to install cheap solar hw and lessen Air-con use, it could cut its electricity usage IN HALF! That's the sort of thing Thai politicians should be doing, instead of slapping lese majeste suits back and forth, playing golf 5 hours a day, and visiting their mia noi and getting drunk (on Johnny Walker they get for bribes) the rest of the time.

A relative of mine thought it was a good idea to use propane in the gas heater although it says LPG.

RIP

Propane is LPG (liquid propane gas).

[OZEMADE]

When l built my place l told the builder l want 3 pin outlets and EVERYTHING earthed. They laughed and , but after feeling my wrath it was done. I wired the electric showers myself and have the appropriate trip switches.

The trip switches mean nothing if the trip switch box is not earthed. These boxes should be earthed separately from the shower.

All Showers with an electric heater/regulator in them should have an EARTH on them.

This is done with copper wire and a copper rod that is driven into the ground.

The copper wire is run from the shower heater, and screwed into the copper rod that has been driven into the earth/ground about 2 feet.

It's not hard to do yourself and any Carrefore or hardware shop carry the copper wire and copper rod.

DON'T BE A DOPE, BE SAFE. YOU DON'T GET A SECOND CHANCE.

[daveh]

It is an absolute tragedy that they consider this an "accident". Neglecting safety is not an accident. I would love to see those responsible put in prison for killing these two individuals.

I really wish I could do something other than avoid these bungalows.