Grounding/Earthing A Dryer Via Soi Drain

[wpcoe]

I just rented a two-floor, 20-year old townhouse on a typical urban soi. Even though some upgrades were made to the electrics in the home (new consumer circuit breaker box,) as per usual, there is no earthing/grounding of any outlets.

I'm only test-renting the place for six months to see if I like living in the area, so I don't want to do major re-wiring to the place. However, I have an electric clothes dryer, which due to various logistics, is located on the ground floor out front in the parking area. There is an un-earthed electrical outlet out there.

I feel definite current leak via some of the metal surfaces of the dryer, especially the drum. I definitely would like to earth/ground the machine, but there is NO exposed soil in front of the place to easily impale a stake. My tile-covered concrete slab floor goes right out to the paved soi.

However, right in front my side wall in the street gutter is a metal framed drain cover. Would I be able to safely run a ground wire from my dryer to that frame and be grounded? Or, am I inviting more grief and problems by even attempting it? My plan would be to run a wire with a metal pincer clip to be able to attach/detach the ground wire, and use it only when needed.

Obviously, I'm not a sparky, and a little knowledge can be very dangerous, hence I'm asking you to be gentle with your replies.

[EnSvenskTiger]

Im no spark but probably no. I resently installed a el-heater for the shower and we ran a wire from the heater to a one meter cupper rod that was driven into the earth in the garden, all according to the instalation manual. Im not sure that event that is enugh as it probably depends on the conductivity of the earth etc.

Hope to hear from somone with knowledge.

Tiger

[doglover]

Absolutely not.....Forget about the dryer for now (and don't use it yet).First things first. Does your shower heater(s) have a ground? If so, does it return to the consumer unit or does it head off on it's own (apart from the feeder wires) through the wall or up into the attic or ceiling? If the latter, you must find out where it goes and report back.

!!! If you need to remove any covers of electrical equipment to check anything you must turn off the main breaker of your consumer unit first and ensure power to the residence is indeed off before proceeding !!!

EDIT - spelling

EDIT 2 - if your shower has no ground, in addition to not drying clothes, do not shower until you know were you stand on the grounding situation.

Edited April 5, 2011 by doglover

[Artisi]

I would think that is a definite NO. As a first step safety measure see if you can purchase an extension power lead which has a RCD incorporated into it - plug your dryer into this - or ask the land-lord to install a RCD into the switch board.

It should really be earthed plus an RCD - no if's or but's as this is the only 100% way to safeguard yourself.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Artisi

[InterestedObserver]

My tile-covered concrete slab floor goes right out to the paved soi.

There was a recent post and comments advocating an anchor bolt in the tile/concrete floor to create a equipotential grounding point around the appliance. Please don't castigate the messenger.

[doglover]

^^^

...Certainly better than nothing..

EDIT - any chance you could post the link IO, would an interesting read no doubt.

Edited April 5, 2011 by doglover

[InterestedObserver]

^^^

...Certainly better than nothing..

EDIT - any chance you could post the link IO, would an interesting read no doubt.

Found it! Electrical Earth In A Thai Room. Not quite as recent as I thought. Picture at post #21 but you need to read the entire article.

Edited April 5, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[doglover]

^^^

...Certainly better than nothing..

EDIT - any chance you could post the link IO, would an interesting read no doubt.

Found it! Electrical Earth In A Thai Room. Not quite as recent as I thought. Picture at post #21 but you need to read the entire article.

That was a good read, thanks for the link IO. And I agree with electau that a dynabolt in the wall/floor is better than nothing! Especially when using an RCD and particuliarly if the distribution system is IT (which sounds to be quite common). Afterall this is Thailand. And so many many things get done half-assed and that is just part of life. For example....

My wife buys appliances when they are on sale and resells them to villagers through monthly payments and jacks up the price accordingly. My wifes aunt bought a washing machine and after it was set in place in the bathroom (bad choice! which was voiced) I showed her the ground wire on the back and told her this must be grounded. I let her know how she should have an electrician do this with a ground wire running outside to a ground stake. And of course that was the end of the discussion as that was no fun to talk about something like that afterall. So is it grounded? Not a chance. She doesn't have much money and would never waste what she has on something so silly! Had I told her to have her son bash a concrete nail in the floor where it meets the wall and wrap the existing ground wire around the nail and tape that wire as secure as possible it MIGHT have happened. So which situation is better? No ground whatsover or the nail with the loosely attached wire? Have to say it actually makes connecting the wire to the wall via a dynabolt look quite professionial! Of course, I would never do this in my home.....rented or otherwise...

To the OP: The first step with your shower should really be to check the test feature of ELB (RCD) on your hot shower works. Then check your CU for an RCD. Then check the grounding. If you are unsure about RCD's and what they are just post a close up picture of your CU.

[BuckarooBanzai]

A simple solution would be to drill a small hole about 1 inch. through your tile-covered concrete slab floor and drive the longest ground rod you can down through the hole. Ground rods are supposed to be located in moist soil so the closer to the drain, assuming there is some leakage, perhaps the better and also why the length is important as the deeper the better. Just don't go through any pipes. Easy to patch up the small hole later if necessary due to a move etc. Good Luck!

[wpcoe]

Thanks for the feedback. So, I take it the drain is a no no?

How thick do you suppose the concrete is beneath the tile, in case I decide to drill through it? If I drill only "about 1 inch through [the] tile-covered concrete slab floor," that wouldn't be deep enough would it?

I read through the linked thread and noticed references to rebar and metal roof beams as possible alternatives for grounding. What about the metal (iron) spikes attached to the low wall separating the townhouse front areas?

The two hot water heaters in the hong nahms both have ground wires leading into the ceiling areas. I need to borrow a ladder and poke my head up there to see where they lead ... if anywhere. Although no place else has three-prong outlets, the back addition that serves as the kitchen (it was added later to the structure) has three-prong outlets and I wonder if maybe they actually put a ground spike out back where it is exposed soil? Probably unlikely, but possible nonetheless?

[BuckarooBanzai]

Thanks for the feedback. So, I take it the drain is a no no?

How thick do you suppose the concrete is beneath the tile, in case I decide to drill through it? If I drill only "about 1 inch through [the] tile-covered concrete slab floor," that wouldn't be deep enough would it?

A ground rod is a ground rod - do not depend on "plumbing" that you know nothing about. You will need to drill a 1 inch diameter hole about 6 to 12 inches through your tile and cement. This is easy to do and you can hire someone to do it for next to nothing. A two meter ground rod would be a great addition to your quest for survival! Really - it is an easy task that you should not have second thoughts about. But that is only my opinion. Cheers!

[wpcoe]

Now *that* makes more sense: 1" diameter, not 1" deep.

News flash. I think the water pump on the other side of the "driveway" is grounded. If it is, can I clamp on a ground wire from my dryer to that wire? Or, is that again somehow playing with fire?

Here's a pic of what I'm assuming is a ground wire. The white-sheathed copper wire looped (loosely...) around the screw, no? I was impressed to see they actually used a "wire nut" for the wires appearing above that in the pic. (Of course, for good measure, they taped it, as well.)

[BuckarooBanzai]

Do not trust what you do not know. We are talking about you or your family member's life for 1 or 2 thousand baht? Do what you think is best.

[wpcoe]

???

I'm asking if it's safe to tap onto the ground wire from the water heater. Is your reply that I'd be risking a family member's life by doing so?

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

If possible, I'd like to avoid making a 1" round hole in the tiled floor. If it's *not* possible, then I need to reconsider. I'd simply like some options.

[BuckarooBanzai]

???

I'm asking if it's safe to tap onto the ground wire from the water heater. Is your reply that I'd be risking a family member's life by doing so?

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

If possible, I'd like to avoid making a 1" round hole in the tiled floor. If it's *not* possible, then I need to reconsider. I'd simply like some options.

I apologize if I seem unclear. Neither you nor I know how good the ground for your water heater is. From my experience you can not trust a Thai installation of any electrical appliance. I am not trying to be argumentative with you. On the contrary I am trying to help. I have been here a lot of years and I know that you can not trust electrical installations by an "electrician".

See

http://www.thaivisa....74#entry4335174

Please, I am only trying to help. Best to you and your family.

[doglover]

Now *that* makes more sense: 1" diameter, not 1" deep.

News flash. I think the water pump on the other side of the "driveway" is grounded. If it is, can I clamp on a ground wire from my dryer to that wire? Or, is that again somehow playing with fire?

Here's a pic of what I'm assuming is a ground wire. The white-sheathed copper wire looped (loosely...) around the screw, no? I was impressed to see they actually used a "wire nut" for the wires appearing above that in the pic. (Of course, for good measure, they taped it, as well.)

But you don't know where that incorrectly coloured and terminated wire goes and if you were lucky and it is taken to a ground rod and is not just poked into the ground...it is still not the proper way to ground your dryer. But if you are after a quick fix why not try the 'screw a wire in the wall' method?

If you want to put more effort into it do as BB suggests. Although it is still jumping the gun and a quick fix as not enough info has been garnered yet. Although I agree with his method of pounding a ground rod if one is required. Also agree with his other advice.

If you want to do it properly you have to spend sufficient time scoping out the current grounding and bonding scenario. You have to find out where these grounds go. Do they go to a ground rod? Is there more than one ground rod? If there is a ground rod is it wired directly to the ground bar in the CU as it should be or are the showers and 3 pin receptacles wired directly to a ground rod? Are the 3 pin receptacles actually grounded? The info you have given and picture suggest substandard workmanship (par for the course). All the more reason to dig deeper. You say you want try the rental out for six months before making a longer commitment. That is plenty of time to get yourself electrocuted.

If you decide to pursue the proper path more pictures would be very helpful. Particularily a close up of your CU with the cover off. Flip off the main breaker and confirm power is off. Carefully remove the cover and do not touch anything inside the CU as the main breaker is still live on the incoming side. (only do this if your feel comfortable)

As a final note. Thai 'electricians' are not expensive. You should be having him do all this homework (and subsequent installs) for you as per your instructions. Good luck.

EDIT - also splicing on to the hot water heaters ground wire is inappropriate.... another quick fix (done incorrectly).

Edited April 7, 2011 by doglover

[raylo]

Now *that* makes more sense: 1" diameter, not 1" deep.

News flash. I think the water pump on the other side of the "driveway" is grounded. If it is, can I clamp on a ground wire from my dryer to that wire? Or, is that again somehow playing with fire?

Here's a pic of what I'm assuming is a ground wire. The white-sheathed copper wire looped (loosely...) around the screw, no? I was impressed to see they actually used a "wire nut" for the wires appearing above that in the pic. (Of course, for good measure, they taped it, as well.)

But you don't know where that incorrectly coloured and terminated wire goes and if you were lucky and it is taken to a ground rod and is not just poked into the ground...it is still not the proper way to ground your dryer. But if you are after a quick fix why not try the 'screw a wire in the wall' method?

If you want to put more effort into it do as BB suggests. Although it is still jumping the gun and a quick fix as not enough info has been garnered yet. Although I agree with his method of pounding a ground rod if one is required. Also agree with his other advice.

If you want to do it properly you have to spend sufficient time scoping out the current grounding and bonding scenario. You have to find out where these grounds go. Do they go to a ground rod? Is there more than one ground rod? If there is a ground rod is it wired directly to the ground bar in the CU as it should be or are the showers and 3 pin receptacles wired directly to a ground rod? Are the 3 pin receptacles actually grounded? The info you have given and picture suggest substandard workmanship (par for the course). All the more reason to dig deeper. You say you want try the rental out for six months before making a longer commitment. That is plenty of time to get yourself electrocuted.

If you decide to pursue the proper path more pictures would be very helpful. Particularily a close up of your CU with the cover off. Flip off the main breaker and confirm power is off. Carefully remove the cover and do not touch anything inside the CU as the main breaker is still live on the incoming side. (only do this if your feel comfortable)

As a final note. Thai 'electricians' are not expensive. You should be having him do all this homework (and subsequent installs) for you as per your instructions. Good luck.

EDIT - also splicing on to the hot water heaters ground wire is inappropriate.... another quick fix (done incorrectly).

Electricians are the same the world over just in western countries that can lose their licence and ultimately everything they own if they stuff up. Maybe! Thats why they form companies. With Thai some know what they are doing the majority dont especially with reference to earthing systems. Most westerners dont either but they have a little bit more knowledge. Luck of the draw when you get one. Same as the posters on TV with the answers. I have seen westerners throw an earth cable into a pit and forget to attach it to the rod. Worked great in the rainy season.

If a metal grate sits on a poly pipe there aint much earthing unless the soil is damp around it.

A nail or dynabolt in a wall has a very small chance of being effective. As one post said - better than nothing! Read the url below and it will give you a possible solution!

At my place I have an earth loop network and shit conductivity. I installed it and still trying to improve it. Here is an article to let you know what you are getting into.

http://harisreepalakkad.org/superadmin/e_uploads/122.pdf

Have fun. Remmber the life you ruin may be your own.

PS: I lived in Bangkok for over a year in an apartment block with only 2 wire reticulation. No real chance of an earth unless i hung it out the window or flushed it down the toilet. Its a wonder no bright TV spark (pun intended) suggested leaving the tap running with an exposed wire under the stream.

[Mrjlh]

Here's what you need to do if you want to do it "RIGHT", you need to drive a copper grounding rod into the ground. I've seen them sold in 2, 3. 4 Meter lengths. Comes with a grounding clamp. The deeper the better but at least 2 meters. Concrete slabs here are not as thick as you think in most places (4"-8" and even less). And you want to use "Green" covered copper ground wire because it is the International standard. (4mm minimum. 5-6mm is better. Larger loads can be carried and a longer run can be made).

You will need the 3 meter ground rod, wire, wire mounts to attach to the wall, a drill, masonry drill bit, an drill extension, screw drivers, sledge hammer, extension cord for drill, and permisson from the house owner to do this.

I assume you've located the closest location to the item you want to ground and it's outside (could be inside too) but it's on the ground floor where you go into SOIL. Using a powered drill, drill a 3/8" to 1/2" hole all the way through the concrete to the soil. You may need an extension on the drill. (TIP: get a 6"long X 1/2" galvanize nipple and put a cap on one end. Slide the galvanized pipe over the top of the copper rod to drive it into the ground. That way the end of the rod will not deform as much when hitting it with a sledge hammer.) Also slide the ground clamp onto the ground rod. Leave it loose. Drive it into the ground until 3-4" sticks up above the concrete. Strip about 1/2" of the insulation off the end of the wire. Surpised how many people don't do this. Attach the wire to ground clap. Run the wire back to the appliance or best yet attach to the electrical outlet. Takes a little thought on how you want to do this. Attach wire to wall, etc..

Or hire some one to do this.

I rewired an entire house by myself with one Thai electrician. I paid an electrician 400 baht to do the hard stuff for me even though I know how to do it myself. I didn't want to climb up into the attic. I did a lot of the simple stuff myself. This was just installing a proper ground for the shower. And I connected it to the water heater, washing machine, refrigerator, and all my wall plugs. I change all of them to grounded plugs. I installed three ground rods in three different locations and running the ground wire on the outside wall, drilling through the wall to the plug so no wire was exposed inside the house. Then sealed all breaches with silicon. All day job which was cost of material and the labor of one man. I think it was less than B3,000 total. (maybe 4,000)

Every one will say no do this, do that but I say if you really want to do a good job the correct way, do what I just said. I retired after 30 years as a Electrical/Mechanical Engineer. There are several Electrical Engineers here that really know the electrical code. So listen to them Don't take short cuts, not worth it! Hope that helps.