Trip Report

Mobi · April 19, 2011

To me this is quite a natural progression when a country moves from third world to developing world to one with an increasingly buoyant economy and the poverty levels are slowly reduced.

Thailand has stagnated over the paste decade in terms of its attempt to escape developing world status. If you look at long-term data, Thailand's economy is anything but "buoyant" and has fallen behind most of the other countries in the region. Poverty is very widespread in Thailand, especially in rural areas. That is one main reason for the anger that underpins the so-called "Red shirt movement." The official economic figures related to economic growth and poverty are BS, similar to the official tourism figures. So, no need to paste them here.

Sorry but I simply do not agree with this. Every indication is that Thailand's economy is forging ahead - it's exports are growing, the Japanese-led industrialisation on the eastern seaboard and elsewhere shows no sign of slowing down and tourism, albeit with some minor slippage from the troubles and world economy, is still in surprisingly good shape.

I often think that foreign observers, especially those who live here, tend to talk down Thailand's economy and the living conditions of its people because that is what they would like to believe, rather than the plain fact that this country will continue to grow and improve ecenomically, in spite of itself and the corrupt and often inept behaviour of its leaders.

You tend to confirm this viewpoint when you ask me not to cut and paste numbers as " The official economic figures related to economic growth and poverty are BS,"

Head in the sand?

Maybe, maybe not, but I don't need statistics to tell me what I can see and observe with my own eyes. Unfortunately too many farangs just want to convince themselves that Thailand is on some kind of slippery slope, and much as they would like it to be true, it never will be.

As for the anger in the countryside and the red shirt movement - I suggest you get out and about a bit more and see for yourself.

I have spent some time in the heart of Issan red shirt country and have seen little signs of poverty - in fact the opposite is true - well kept villages, houses with nice gardens, flat screen TV's, and even sedan cars in driveways something unheard of a few years back and a sure sign that the population is risng above the need just to survive. Flourishing shopping centres in the towns where you can't even get in the car parks of Big C or Lotus on a weekend. They still love Thaksin because he was so generous to them, but the majority ain't so poor any more.

Darrel · April 19, 2011

Just got back from what use to be the land of smiles , We went to Pattaya for a few days, the wife and i after a few stressfully days .She is under the same impression as myself. Pattaya is no fun anymore.

Just wondering when exactly you were here? The town became extremely quiet about 10-15 days ago, due to the run up to Songkran I think. Prior to that it was still quite busy. Not sure what will happen next week.

But that aside, yes Pattaya is now largely peopled by rather dull and/or ill-behaved families, Russians and drunks (some are all three at the same time ).

The good old-fashioned sex tourists are now in the minority, which is a shame as at least they provided some amusement, some decent incomes for Thai workers and generally behaved themselves in public. Today's farangs (visitors and residents) mostly do not: they are a dull lot indeed.

PattayaParent · April 19, 2011

It's really beyond me why all these tourists show up on Walking Street and don't even venture into any bars. It's just so stupid.

And I don't know why so many (sex) tourists have left. The exchange rates aren't that awful. Are the western economies in that terrible of shape?

They're certainly not as bad as the mid 90s when Pattaya was booming at rates of £1 = 40 baht and $1 = 25 Baht.

I think the major change has been in the number of bars, back then there were far fewer bars and they were very busy, now put the same numbers of tourists in 3 times as many bars and they seem empty in comparison and nobody makes money except for the building owners that rent them out.

DMC1 · April 19, 2011

It's really beyond me why all these tourists show up on Walking Street and don't even venture into any bars. It's just so stupid.

And I don't know why so many (sex) tourists have left. The exchange rates aren't that awful. Are the western economies in that terrible of shape?

They're certainly not as bad as the mid 90s when Pattaya was booming at rates of £1 = 40 baht and $1 = 25 Baht.

I think the major change has been in the number of bars, back then there were far fewer bars and they were very busy, now put the same numbers of tourists in 3 times as many bars and they seem empty in comparison and nobody makes money except for the building owners that rent them out.

Back in the 90's your 40B to the pound bought you lot more - you cannot compare exchange rates from +17 years ago

dmax · April 19, 2011

It's really beyond me why all these tourists show up on Walking Street and don't even venture into any bars. It's just so stupid.

And I don't know why so many (sex) tourists have left. The exchange rates aren't that awful. Are the western economies in that terrible of shape?

YES

samran · April 19, 2011

just a thought.

Could the dearth of 'top drawer damsels of the night' have anything to do with the fact that the better looking ones no longer need to work in bars? Whatever is or isn't happening to the economy in Pattaya, the general trend of Thailand's economy is upwards, in spite of all troubles, world recession etc.

During my various trips to Issan over the past year or so, I have seen a noticeable increase in general prosperity, with most families owning at least one pick-up, several shiny new motorbikes and most of the folk are in work or business of one kind or another. Also the infrastructure has clearly improved, with good quality roads,electricity and water services, internet etc. I know there are still many impoverished people in the rural areas, but the numbers have clearly reduced form a decade or so ago. Very few are starving and many girls are no longer desperate to work in bars to keep their families.

I know for a fact that here on the Darkside it is an increasing problem for bar owners to find girls to come and work. I have spoken to a few Thai owners and 'mamasans' and they tell me that they have called their contacts back in Issan and none of the girls want to come and work in bars any more. They all seem to have greater aspirations. The few that do come, are only looking for husbands- not long term work as whores and usually disappear within a month or so, having landed themselves a farang husband.

To me this is quite a natural progression when a country moves from third world to developing world to one with an increasingly buoyant economy and the poverty levels are slowly reduced.

In Victorian times in the UK, the streets of cities were awash with whores, yet now they are restricted to a few 'red light' areas and most women have many choices other than to become prostitutes.

I believe the same is happening here, although admittedly there is still along way to go, so guys don't start panicking. I am sure there will still be plenty around to see me out. I am just talking about a general trend - not a mass movement.

In a similar way there is a general desire by the powers that be to slowly take Pattaya more up market and away from it's seedy image. During this transition there will clearly be some 'growing pains', but that is the price of progress.

Maybe I am wrong- what say you?

Well said.

I did some work back in 2001. Sitting in some the poorer parts of Issan with parents still tilling the fields, i went from house to house asking what their children did. The answer? Doctors, engineers, nurses, civil servants, or working in the Nike Factory in Khon Kean, working at a shop in town....You get the picture.

Thailand still has a bit of a reputation for being the knock shop of Asia, with Pattaya the mothership. Good news though is that investment in education, and a modicum of access to other jobs will/has chip away at this.

Still, many here will put the fact there are pickups down to the fact that it is the farangs who are providing all this, and without them Thailand would fall in a heap, yada yada yada. Based on the work I've done, most of those payments are coming from their kids, working in real jobs.

manarak · April 19, 2011

It's really beyond me why all these tourists show up on Walking Street and don't even venture into any bars. It's just so stupid.

And I don't know why so many (sex) tourists have left. The exchange rates aren't that awful. Are the western economies in that terrible of shape?

The so-called tourists don't go into the bars because they don't have money.

And regarding your question, I guess you must be Australian or Swiss.

Europe has been hit hard by the crisis, and the USD has overall lost about 50% of its value over the last 8 years, -25% vs Baht in the past 5 years, the GBP -33%, EUR -20%.

At the same time airfares went up by about 33 to 50%.

So, people who had 20% excess income to live in Thailand now have 0 to spend on extras, not to mention western countries chickening out of their pension payment duties because the pensioner lives in Thailand and not in UK or EU.

I do business on the internet, but I'm also in manufacturing in Europe, and both business were hit very hard, like -60% over the last 3-4 years and I'm not the only one.

Regarding the quality of ladies, there are many stunners out today for Songkran - but somehow they don't work in bars.

PattayaParent · April 19, 2011

It's really beyond me why all these tourists show up on Walking Street and don't even venture into any bars. It's just so stupid.

And I don't know why so many (sex) tourists have left. The exchange rates aren't that awful. Are the western economies in that terrible of shape?

They're certainly not as bad as the mid 90s when Pattaya was booming at rates of £1 = 40 baht and $1 = 25 Baht.

I think the major change has been in the number of bars, back then there were far fewer bars and they were very busy, now put the same numbers of tourists in 3 times as many bars and they seem empty in comparison and nobody makes money except for the building owners that rent them out.

Back in the 90's your 40B to the pound bought you lot more - you cannot compare exchange rates from +17 years ago

Did it? Like what? A basic mobile 'phone back then cost $1,000 how many can you buy with that same $1,000 now?

You could rent my condo for $1,000 per month back then, now it will cost $800 at todays rates, $500 not so long ago.

Thongkorn · April 19, 2011

My wife and I are not sex tourist and never have been , And I never meet my wife In Pattaya. After visiting The place over the last 6 years, some times we would stay for 5 months /4 months down to maybe 3 weeks.Not being drinkers we only drink socially,We made many friends Some Thai and other Nationals , Mostly business people, We made many friends with bar girls because they are human and when you get to know them and they trust you , you will find a whole new Thailand, they have family's and children and yes some have husbands and boyfriends while working the bar , I do not get involved in that because most men would not believe you anyway.We like to walk and take long rides on motor bikes so got to know Pattaya and the surrounding area. I really should not be justifying my post but I will. yes the Economic down turn has effected many westerners from visiting the place and those who can afford it seem to find it is not whats in the brochure.

champken · April 19, 2011

One other reason for the fewer stunners around these days could be due to the fact that the Thai male is now a more attractive proposition than he ever used to be for the girls, what i have noticed over the last few years is the dwindling numbers of younger (no babies) girls in the bars

manarak · April 19, 2011

what i have noticed over the last few years is the dwindling numbers of younger (no babies) girls in the bars

so true!

especially slim ones

gk10002000 · April 20, 2011

I agree 100% with the OP. My first pattaya trip was in 2004. Been there 10 times total. Soi 7 and Soi 8 used to have a lot more atmosphere. Soi 7 went downhill first. Soi 8 has lost so much of its character. That Eastiny hotel cropped up in there, no more feeling of being on a Soi, in the literal sense. The walk along beach road used to be so much nicer. Too many vendors now. Too many lights, etc. Siiigh. Ever changing world.

I will still go to Pattaya this year for a few weeks, because i like the size of the city, the availability of services and the surrounding ares and attractions. Love the German food there.

BY the way, just had a hopping fun day at the Local Wat Laos here in san diego CA for their "songkran". Next weekend the local Wat Thai in Escondido has their Songkran festivities.

cardholder · April 20, 2011

As a matter of interest, how long did you live in Pattaya (I assume you lived there as you seem to know it very well!) and how long have you been away? Have you been abroad or just living elsewhere in Thailand? I don't live in Pattaya, and don't know it that well, but pop down there every few months, whilst I've seen it busier, it wasn't that quiet a couple of months ago.

You have a point to make, or just want to raise your post count ?

I am so sorry, trevorg, I had intended to post against post #3

Tolley · April 20, 2011

The dynamics have changed a fair bit in Pattaya with the cost of living rising significantly and the economic decline of many of the western countries post GFC.

In short many of the sex tourists of yesterday no longer have the funds available to hang around Pattaya.

Add to this the fact that the stocks of Thai women are quite high due to the internet and you have another factor in the equation ....quality women are increasingly being snapped up and married almost as soon as they hit the bars and the quality girls left can and do charge a premium.

Personally I don't have a problem with any of this and the changes in Pattaya are probably all for the better anyway.

All places change.

The fact that Russian families are replacing lager louts from the UK and elsewhere will not cause me any sleepless nights!

DMC1 · April 20, 2011

It's really beyond me why all these tourists show up on Walking Street and don't even venture into any bars. It's just so stupid.

And I don't know why so many (sex) tourists have left. The exchange rates aren't that awful. Are the western economies in that terrible of shape?

They're certainly not as bad as the mid 90s when Pattaya was booming at rates of £1 = 40 baht and $1 = 25 Baht.

I think the major change has been in the number of bars, back then there were far fewer bars and they were very busy, now put the same numbers of tourists in 3 times as many bars and they seem empty in comparison and nobody makes money except for the building owners that rent them out.

Back in the 90's your 40B to the pound bought you lot more - you cannot compare exchange rates from +17 years ago

Did it? Like what? A basic mobile 'phone back then cost $1,000 how many can you buy with that same $1,000 now?

You could rent my condo for $1,000 per month back then, now it will cost $800 at todays rates, $500 not so long ago.

food, drink, hotel rooms, long time & short time for a start. Mobile phones were relatively new technology back then of course they would be more expensive in comparison. If the US/UK rates were still 40/70 respectively then it would still be similar pricing to back then

PattayaParent · April 20, 2011

Back in the 90's your 40B to the pound bought you lot more - you cannot compare exchange rates from +17 years ago

Did it? Like what? A basic mobile 'phone back then cost $1,000 how many can you buy with that same $1,000 now?

You could rent my condo for $1,000 per month back then, now it will cost $800 at todays rates, $500 not so long ago.

food, drink, hotel rooms, long time & short time for a start. Mobile phones were relatively new technology back then of course they would be more expensive in comparison. If the US/UK rates were still 40/70 respectively then it would still be similar pricing to back then

eh? It would be much cheaper.

A 25,000 Baht 'phone then at a rate of 25 to the $ was $1,000

A current 25,000 baht 'phone at a rate of 40 to the $ is $625 ($800 at the correct rate) BUT you can get that previously $1,000 'phone for 1,000 Baht now.

DMC1 · April 20, 2011

Back in the 90's your 40B to the pound bought you lot more - you cannot compare exchange rates from +17 years ago

Did it? Like what? A basic mobile 'phone back then cost $1,000 how many can you buy with that same $1,000 now?

You could rent my condo for $1,000 per month back then, now it will cost $800 at todays rates, $500 not so long ago.

food, drink, hotel rooms, long time & short time for a start. Mobile phones were relatively new technology back then of course they would be more expensive in comparison. If the US/UK rates were still 40/70 respectively then it would still be similar pricing to back then

eh? It would be much cheaper.

A 25,000 Baht 'phone then at a rate of 25 to the $ was $1,000

A current 25,000 baht 'phone at a rate of 40 to the $ is $625 ($800 at the correct rate) BUT you can get that previously $1,000 'phone for 1,000 Baht now.

Sorry, the last sentence wasn't referring to mobile phones but the other stuff in the 1st sentence. I should've put the sentences the other way round.

GarryP · April 20, 2011

One other reason for the fewer stunners around these days could be due to the fact that the Thai male is now a more attractive proposition than he ever used to be for the girls, what i have noticed over the last few years is the dwindling numbers of younger (no babies) girls in the bars

In years of old, many of the women had no education because they could not afford it so you had large numbers of illiterate girls or ones with only primary school education. Choices were rather limited as to what they could do. However, nowadays education is more accessible, and free thru high school. So with more education they have more choices.

As to Pattaya's problems, I have no idea as I haven't been there for about 10 years or more. But find the subject of its demise interesting.

Edited April 20, 2011 by GarryP

thaibeachlovers · April 22, 2011

It's really beyond me why all these tourists show up on Walking Street and don't even venture into any bars. It's just so stupid.

And I don't know why so many (sex) tourists have left. The exchange rates aren't that awful. Are the western economies in that terrible of shape?

Have you not watched the news in the past 6 months or so? Not heard about the EU disasters of Ireland and Greece? The economic woes of the UK? The 14 TRILLION $ US debt?

The western economies are fast disappearing into black holes ( of their own making ). Too much greed and easy credit. Now all the chickens are coming home to roost, and it's reflected in the diminishing number of western tourists visiting places like Pattaya.

Anyway, Pattaya has had far too many bars for a long time. None are making much profit. Time for some reality to set in.

thaibeachlovers · April 22, 2011

just a thought.

Could the dearth of 'top drawer damsels of the night' have anything to do with the fact that the better looking ones no longer need to work in bars? Whatever is or isn't happening to the economy in Pattaya, the general trend of Thailand's economy is upwards, in spite of all troubles, world recession etc.

During my various trips to Issan over the past year or so, I have seen a noticeable increase in general prosperity, with most families owning at least one pick-up, several shiny new motorbikes and most of the folk are in work or business of one kind or another. Also the infrastructure has clearly improved, with good quality roads,electricity and water services, internet etc. I know there are still many impoverished people in the rural areas, but the numbers have clearly reduced form a decade or so ago. Very few are starving and many girls are no longer desperate to work in bars to keep their families.

I know for a fact that here on the Darkside it is an increasing problem for bar owners to find girls to come and work. I have spoken to a few Thai owners and 'mamasans' and they tell me that they have called their contacts back in Issan and none of the girls want to come and work in bars any more. They all seem to have greater aspirations. The few that do come, are only looking for husbands- not long term work as whores and usually disappear within a month or so, having landed themselves a farang husband.

To me this is quite a natural progression when a country moves from third world to developing world to one with an increasingly buoyant economy and the poverty levels are slowly reduced.

In Victorian times in the UK, the streets of cities were awash with whores, yet now they are restricted to a few 'red light' areas and most women have many choices other than to become prostitutes.

I believe the same is happening here, although admittedly there is still along way to go, so guys don't start panicking. I am sure there will still be plenty around to see me out. I am just talking about a general trend - not a mass movement.

In a similar way there is a general desire by the powers that be to slowly take Pattaya more up market and away from it's seedy image. During this transition there will clearly be some 'growing pains', but that is the price of progress.

Maybe I am wrong- what say you?

Well said.

I did some work back in 2001. Sitting in some the poorer parts of Issan with parents still tilling the fields, i went from house to house asking what their children did. The answer? Doctors, engineers, nurses, civil servants, or working in the Nike Factory in Khon Kean, working at a shop in town....You get the picture.

Thailand still has a bit of a reputation for being the knock shop of Asia, with Pattaya the mothership. Good news though is that investment in education, and a modicum of access to other jobs will/has chip away at this.

Still, many here will put the fact there are pickups down to the fact that it is the farangs who are providing all this, and without them Thailand would fall in a heap, yada yada yada. Based on the work I've done, most of those payments are coming from their kids, working in real jobs.

Hmmm, given that for every civil engineer, Dr etc, there are many more low income workers ( in any society ), I would say that the majority of the Issan pickups etc are indeed coming from "farangs". How much do the staff at the hundreds of shops, foot massage places, restaurants ( real jobs ) in Pattaya make? Not much, I'll bet.

My TGF works 6 days a week at an international restaurant chain in Central, started out on 5,000 a month, and is now on 8,000. Hardly enough to be buying a car, after paying rent and food etc.

As for the comments about the "looks" of the Pattaya ladies, I've been going to Pattaya since the early '90s, and I reckon there are more good looking women around now than back then.

thaibeachlovers · April 22, 2011

One other reason for the fewer stunners around these days could be due to the fact that the Thai male is now a more attractive proposition than he ever used to be for the girls, what i have noticed over the last few years is the dwindling numbers of younger (no babies) girls in the bars

In years of old, many of the women had no education because they could not afford it so you had large numbers of illiterate girls or ones with only primary school education. Choices were rather limited as to what they could do. However, nowadays education is more accessible, and free thru high school. So with more education they have more choices.

As to Pattaya's problems, I have no idea as I haven't been there for about 10 years or more. But find the subject of its demise interesting.

Sorry, but Pattaya isn't "demising" any time soon. It won't be the same as it was 10 years ago, but it'll still be with us.

I'm pickin' that all the bars etc will vanish from Beach and second Rds, and relocate to Soi Buakhao and beyond. I just hope they make it the "new" walking Street, as it's becoming very dangerous walking along it , with no pavements and increasing traffic.

PattayaParent · April 22, 2011

As for the comments about the "looks" of the Pattaya ladies, I've been going to Pattaya since the early '90s, and I reckon there are more good looking women around now than back then.

Maybe it's the poster doing the complaining that has deteriorated in looks and no longer attracts the attention of the good looking girls.

PattayaParent · April 22, 2011

Did it? Like what? A basic mobile 'phone back then cost $1,000 how many can you buy with that same $1,000 now?

You could rent my condo for $1,000 per month back then, now it will cost $800 at todays rates, $500 not so long ago.

food, drink, hotel rooms, long time & short time for a start. Mobile phones were relatively new technology back then of course they would be more expensive in comparison. If the US/UK rates were still 40/70 respectively then it would still be similar pricing to back then

eh? It would be much cheaper.

A 25,000 Baht 'phone then at a rate of 25 to the $ was $1,000

A current 25,000 baht 'phone at a rate of 40 to the $ is $625 ($800 at the correct rate) BUT you can get that previously $1,000 'phone for 1,000 Baht now.

Sorry, the last sentence wasn't referring to mobile phones but the other stuff in the 1st sentence. I should've put the sentences the other way round.

I think you're really confusing inflation with exchange rates.

The phrase you used "Back in the 90's your 40B to the pound bought you lot more" is more associated with inflation iin single currency terms whereas a stronger exchange rate (in this case) effectively causes 'deflation' over 2 currencies if you're bringing your money into the country from outside like most expats are.

Example - your short times have gone from 500 Baht to 1,000 Baht, a 100% inflation but the exchange rate effect from 25 Baht to 40 Baht is only 25%.

3 bottles of Chang were 100 Baht = $4, now 3 bottles of Chang are 105 Baht, a 5% infltion rate but a more than 25% decrease in price in $ exchange terms.

And as I quoted rent (I don't know hotels rates) was more expensive then especially considering the 25,000 Baht rents back then are now 15,000 Baht, a double whammy in expense.

Edited April 22, 2011 by PattayaParent

maswov · April 23, 2011

Off the top of my head, by looking at the date of your post your visit was during songkran. Many girls go home during this time and expats head back to their homes as well. In addition for the folks that remain many don't come out unless necessary to avoid the madness. That being said, yes Pattaya is constantly changing along with every other place in the world. I'm not sure when the last time you were here but the more time that passes the more will change. When I was in the Navy i would deploy for 6 months and upon return to my homeport in the US I felt like I was in a different city. change is inevitable and perpetual.

DMC1 · April 23, 2011