5 More Musicians Jailed

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Thank you, yes. "Respect" is not the word I should have used since it usually implies admiration. Status quo is in the interest of the establishment (and is the preference of a number of contributors to ThVi too, I find).

Only the ones who don't want Thailand to develop and progress, so their Euro/Dollar can avail them to more of the local 'services'. The ones who truly have Thailand's best interests at heart know that the current status quo is impeding the advancement of the vast majority of its people.

Edited May 6, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[montrii]

Sorry Ian but in this case you are wrong.

I know at least two bar owners who are paying white musicians (cash not drinks) to 'jam' in their bar.

I know one arrested musician who earned his living playing 6 nights a week, he worked in 6 different bars, so that leaves 4 more 'jamming' bars in CM that I don't know who pay white musicians.

I'll PM you the names of the bars and the name of the musician if you like.

The outcome of the arrests is that at least one of the 'jamming' bars is now paying Thai musicians to play in his bar, where previously he was using white musicians. So not only have the arrests been correctly made and taken illegal workers off the market, but it has actually created jobs for Thai musicians, which was really the whole point of the exercise in the first place.

While there is a lot of pretend outrage and righteous indignation on this thread the fact is white musicians are working illegally in CM and bar owners are paying them.

I have only a brief acquaintance with the Chiengmai music scene, and I wouldn't question that at Guitarman (NOT North Gate) perhaps there was a farang playing who was actually making a living playing, don't know, but I'd accept that. There are actually a number of farangs eking out a bare living, never a good one, playing music under the radar in Thailand, but, and I think I'm fairly knowledgeable on this subject, I'd estimate the total number at a dozen or two in the entire country, along with a few more who might pick up some occasional odd change before flying back to Europe or wherever. There are also hundreds, maybe many hundreds, teaching school without work permits, and the same goes for other occupations--web page design, property rental, even retail clothing sales. Additionally there are many, many foreigners doing volunteer work for charities, almost none of whom have the required permits.

Leaving aside the questions of whether these foreign workers are taking work away from Thais--though I think that is not the case to any appreciable extent (in fact, often having a farang playing in a club actually creates work for Thais where there was none before, that could be a whole other topic)--or whether the law itself is good, fair, or equitable--which I strongly feel it is not--arresting foreigners for jamming in a nightclub as a violation of law is ridiculous. I speak as someone who's jammed at clubs all over the country, for decades, in fact, and including at the North Gate, just last February. I have NEVER been offered money for doing this. It has ALWAYS been an enthusiastic sharing of music from both sides. The Thai musicians enjoy the foreigners, the audience enjoys it, the club maybe makes a little more money, the foreigners, who are usually just tourists, get an added boost to their experience of Thailand. There simply is no downside that I can see.

If the police had to bust someone for working illegally, and they got one who was getting paid under the table, I'd say they were within rights, though I believe the law itself should be thrown out, or certainly revised. But they should have gathered their evidence on that person, targeted him, and picked him up. Bagging and tagging the jammers, who I am quite certain were just there for fun and who were engaging in the most positive kind of cultural exchange, was stupid, unreasonable, unnecessary, and foul. That's a fact.

I have no idea what the motivation of the police was. But all the Thais I've talked to about this, and I also speak good Thai, have suggested that the bar owners were not paying off the right people, something like that. That sounds to me much more likely than that anyone was really worried about Thais losing work.

This is not "pretend outrage." I haven't seen any sign of that in postings on this topic.

Edited May 6, 2011 by montrii

[elektrified]

Sorry Ian but in this case you are wrong.

I know at least two bar owners who are paying white musicians (cash not drinks) to 'jam' in their bar.

I know one arrested musician who earned his living playing 6 nights a week, he worked in 6 different bars, so that leaves 4 more 'jamming' bars in CM that I don't know who pay white musicians.

I'll PM you the names of the bars and the name of the musician if you like.

The outcome of the arrests is that at least one of the 'jamming' bars is now paying Thai musicians to play in his bar, where previously he was using white musicians. So not only have the arrests been correctly made and taken illegal workers off the market, but it has actually created jobs for Thai musicians, which was really the whole point of the exercise in the first place.

While there is a lot of pretend outrage and righteous indignation on this thread the fact is white musicians are working illegally in CM and bar owners are paying them.

I have only a brief acquaintance with the Chiengmai music scene, and I wouldn't question that at Guitarman (NOT North Gate) perhaps there was a farang playing who was actually making a living playing, don't know, but I'd accept that. There are actually a number of farangs eking out a bare living, never a good one, playing music under the radar in Thailand, but, and I think I'm fairly knowledgeable on this subject, I'd estimate the total number at a dozen or two in the entire country, along with a few more who might pick up some occasional odd change before flying back to Europe or wherever. There are also hundreds, maybe many hundreds, teaching school without work permits, and the same goes for other occupations--web page design, property rental, even retail clothing sales. Additionally there are many, many foreigners doing volunteer work for charities, almost none of whom have the required permits.

Leaving aside the questions of whether these foreign workers are taking work away from Thais--though I think that is not the case to any appreciable extent (in fact, often having a farang playing in a club actually creates work for Thais where there was none before, that could be a whole other topic)--or whether the law itself is good, fair, or equitable--which I strongly feel it is not--arresting foreigners for jamming in a nightclub as a violation of law is ridiculous. I speak as someone who's jammed at clubs all over the country, for decades, in fact, and including at the North Gate, just last February. I have NEVER been offered money for doing this. It has ALWAYS been an enthusiastic sharing of music from both sides. The Thai musicians enjoy the foreigners, the audience enjoys it, the club maybe makes a little more money, the foreigners, who are usually just tourists, get an added boost to their experience of Thailand. There simply is no downside that I can see.

If the police had to bust someone for working illegally, and they got one who was getting paid under the table, I'd say they were within rights, though I believe the law itself should be thrown out, or certainly revised. But they should have gathered their evidence on that person, targeted him, and picked him up. Bagging and tagging the jammers, who I am quite certain were just there for fun and who were engaging in the most positive kind of cultural exchange, was stupid, unreasonable, unnecessary, and foul. That's a fact.

I have no idea what the motivation of the police was. But all the Thais I've talked to about this, and I also speak good Thai, have suggested that the bar owners were not paying off the right people, something like that. That sounds to me much more likely than that anyone was really worried about Thais losing work.

This is not "pretend outrage." I haven't seen any sign of that in postings on this topic.

Excellent post. The post that you replied to was ridiculous...

Like I said in a previous post, Boy of Boy's Blues Bar went to C.M. Immigration to find out what the law was with respect to foreign musicians playing (jamming) in his club. He was told that it is "O.K. just as long as it is not a regular or weekly type of gig". Again I think the law needs to be clearly defined and published so that all concerned know exactly what the law is. I have not seen that thus far.

[Kilgore Trout]

Just taking my cue from the poster who mentioned his 'daddy'....bless him

why "wrong is wrong" makes it real simple

why do I need a work permit to sing while my buddy slings booze to paying ,drinking , drunk young people standing in the busy street at night ,why is it wrong,why???,

it is the law and the law is the law as my daddy told me more than once ...

darn simple for most....

the people that can not grasp this fact are indeed the sad ,miserable ones.

Sorry, chum, I'm neither sad nor miserable, just somewhat disappointed over the last five years by some aspects of the 'warm, friendly expat community' the online blurbs led me to expect. Fortunately, my home is 20kms away from town...

Buddhalady

Help us out bud, does this mean you can not grasp the concept wrong is wrong in regards to breaking a countries laws?

I certainly did not use sad and miserable in referance to you but I guess as my oldest uncle used to say,

" if the shoe fits ,wear it!"

My friend; you are the one who is wrong. Laws don't trump morality.

Are you saying Rosa Parks should have gotten to the back of the bus with the rest of the "coloreds?"

what you are forgetting is that some people are willing to accept the consequences of the laws in order to change things.

Not that this is the same thing; but your thinking puts you on a slippery slope

[jdinasia]

My friend; you are the one who is wrong. Laws don't trump morality.

Are you saying Rosa Parks should have gotten to the back of the bus with the rest of the "coloreds?"

what you are forgetting is that some people are willing to accept the consequences of the laws in order to change things.

Not that this is the same thing; but your thinking puts you on a slippery slope

Sorry, but playing music in a pub in a country you are a foreigner in simply is not a basic human right. REALLY bad comparison there. There is no automatic "moral right" to be an entertainer (or even a visitor) in a foreign country.

I agree the law is wrong in principle ... but the line will be drawn somewhere ... and in Thailand, sadly, the line is drawn pretty clearly. If the bar wants live music it has to hire Thais or foreigners that have a valid WP to be there. Yes it sucks but ....

On the bright side you can always have your friends over for a few beers and a jam session at your place .... until your neighbors complain

(( Please note ---- I really do think the enforcement on this law should be changed --- even of only to allow a non-paid "open-mic" night a couple of times a week .... ))

[PlanetX]

Is it even possible to get a work permit to play music in a bar?

[jdinasia]

Is it even possible to get a work permit to play music in a bar?

yes

[Greenside]

Is it even possible to get a work permit to play music in a bar?

yes

Do you need a Bachelor's Degree I wonder, or maybe have to work through a few riffs at the Immigration Office one lunchtime?

[montrii]

My friend; you are the one who is wrong. Laws don't trump morality.

Are you saying Rosa Parks should have gotten to the back of the bus with the rest of the "coloreds?"

what you are forgetting is that some people are willing to accept the consequences of the laws in order to change things.

Not that this is the same thing; but your thinking puts you on a slippery slope

Sorry, but playing music in a pub in a country you are a foreigner in simply is not a basic human right. REALLY bad comparison there. There is no automatic "moral right" to be an entertainer (or even a visitor) in a foreign country.

I agree the law is wrong in principle ... but the line will be drawn somewhere ... and in Thailand, sadly, the line is drawn pretty clearly. If the bar wants live music it has to hire Thais or foreigners that have a valid WP to be there. Yes it sucks but ....

On the bright side you can always have your friends over for a few beers and a jam session at your place .... until your neighbors complain

(( Please note ---- I really do think the enforcement on this law should be changed --- even of only to allow a non-paid "open-mic" night a couple of times a week .... ))

Hi, jd. Maybe you haven't read the full thread. There are some very clear points made that you seem not to have picked up on. One is that the law is NOT "drawn pretty clearly." It's written extremely subjectively, not clearly at all. And it is almost never enforced, even if is read to include jamming, which I don't think is a logical way--and certainly not a necessary way--to interpret this very fuzzy law. Jamming happens everywhere in Thailand, and in my memory (a long one) it's never been considered a hazard to get up and sing or play. Another point is that there's a lot of corruption in Thailand, and that the enforcement here may well (I understate, I think) have had nothing to do with enforcing the law and everything to do with some police or other officials getting paid off. And on the human rights thing, I beg to differ. I think it's a human right to make a joyful noise anywhere that it doesn't bother someone else, or hurt them in some way. And I think you or anyone else would be hard pressed to show that it hurts anyone at all. Quite the contrary, in fact, in my view.

Edited May 16, 2011 by montrii

[jdinasia]

Montrii ---- I see the law as pretty clear. I agree with you about the enforcement of the law.

[sarahsbloke]

And I think you or anyone else would be hard pressed to show that it hurts anyone at all. Quite the contrary, in fact, in my view.

One of the 'jamming bars' now pays Thais to play there, previously white people did the job for free.

I think I win the prize as the white free players clearly hurt the working Thai musicians .... to the tune of 2 years lost salary.

[montrii]

Montrii ---- I see the law as pretty clear. I agree with you about the enforcement of the law.

Actually I haven't read the law! I admit it. But my experience with it dates back to when I was working with tsunami relief, 2005, quite legally. Many people were in fear of getting busted because they were on retirement visas there, and because they were doing work for one or another of the NGOs, albeit not for pay, they checked into it and found that it didn't matter whether they got paid or not, if it "looked like work, it was work." Now what does that mean? "Look like," to whom? As I mentioned in a previous post, it's a bit like the lèse majesté law, all someone has to do is accuse you, just make a phone call to the right/wrong person, and you're guilty until proven innocent. This is not clarity in my book. And jamming certainly doesn't look like work to me. Usually it's just a guy coming through for a day or two, having a little fun. And no jobs are lost.,

And @sarahsbloke, I agreed that the cops were within their rights if someone was really working, really taking work from Thais. I'd have to be convinced before I believe that's what actually happened up there, but it might have, in one of the clubs, even though I still think it's a dumb law. However, North Gate is absolutely not like that, I speak from personal experience. Lets not talk about any of us on the sidelines "winning" or "losing" here. Let's talk about what happened. If someone was busted with evidence that he was taking work from Thais, paid or not, I guess that counts as within the cops' rights. But that is not what happened at North Gate, I'm sure. And to say the cops were within legal rights, if they were at the one club, does not take anything away from the truth of all the pro-jamming posts. Check out what Bain said. I translated it above. It's quite eloquent. That, to me, is completely the point.

[Kilgore Trout]

Montrii ---- I see the law as pretty clear. I agree with you about the enforcement of the law.

Actually I haven't read the law! I admit it. But my experience with it dates back to when I was working with tsunami relief, 2005, quite legally. Many people were in fear of getting busted because they were on retirement visas there, and because they were doing work for one or another of the NGOs, albeit not for pay, they checked into it and found that it didn't matter whether they got paid or not, if it "looked like work, it was work." Now what does that mean? "Look like," to whom? As I mentioned in a previous post, it's a bit like the lèse majesté law, all someone has to do is accuse you, just make a phone call to the right/wrong person, and you're guilty until proven innocent. This is not clarity in my book. And jamming certainly doesn't look like work to me. Usually it's just a guy coming through for a day or two, having a little fun. And no jobs are lost.,

And @sarahsbloke, I agreed that the cops were within their rights if someone was really working, really taking work from Thais. I'd have to be convinced before I believe that's what actually happened up there, but it might have, in one of the clubs, even though I still think it's a dumb law. However, North Gate is absolutely not like that, I speak from personal experience. Lets not talk about any of us on the sidelines "winning" or "losing" here. Let's talk about what happened. If someone was busted with evidence that he was taking work from Thais, paid or not, I guess that counts as within the cops' rights. But that is not what happened at North Gate, I'm sure. And to say the cops were within legal rights, if they were at the one club, does not take anything away from the truth of all the pro-jamming posts. Check out what Bain said. I translated it above. It's quite eloquent. That, to me, is completely the point.

Right there with you Montri; I lived in Chiang Mai years ago and am familiar with the jamming scene there.

What is ridiculous is that the people jamming are bringing in customers; their friends come to hang out and the jammers are paying customers too. The scene is what brings in people passing by; they come in because everyone is lively and having fun.

Switch to paid Thai musicians; nothing against them but they are just not going to create the same atmosphere; not at these little dives. The good ones play at known places and people go to see them but that is not what north gate and other places are about.

I hope people come to their senses on this; can't believe some people can't spot a shakedown when they see it.

[jdinasia]

Montrii

Actually I haven't read the law! I admit it.

Before this you told me about the law and how it was written ....

again, I think the issue certainly needs to be in clear and even enforcement. I am the sucker that has to deal with a significant portion of the stuff around WP's and Immigration for our company. (Fortunately I rarely ever have to go to the offices of those two esteemed organizations! )

It would be nice to see this issue come in front of the top levels of the Chiang Mai administration (Labor/Imm/Police/Governor) all at once .... and get some clear enforcement guidelines.

[montrii]

Montrii

Actually I haven't read the law! I admit it.

Before this you told me about the law and how it was written ....

again, I think the issue certainly needs to be in clear and even enforcement. I am the sucker that has to deal with a significant portion of the stuff around WP's and Immigration for our company. (Fortunately I rarely ever have to go to the offices of those two esteemed organizations! )

It would be nice to see this issue come in front of the top levels of the Chiang Mai administration (Labor/Imm/Police/Governor) all at once .... and get some clear enforcement guidelines.

It's true I haven't read it (if someone on this thread has, please speak up!), but Iknow pretty much what it says, because I've had it described to me. It's a bad law, but even so, it doesn't really apply to this situation.

As far as clear enforcement goes, show me a Thai law that has clear enforcement! Think about traffic laws, for instance . . . I'm sure most of us know how traffic tickets are handled. This is not an enforcement question unless all of Thailand is suddenly going to change. drastically, and in that case, the laws will also change. What about liquor sales? 7-11 and other franchises and big outlets won't sell except during permitted hours, but your corner store ignores it (another stupid law, arbitrarily enforced).

The fact is that the law in the case of musicians is unclear, left up to the subjective judgment of the enforcers, the enforcers are corrupt, and to think of finding any ethical or even efficient solution is futile at this point. What I'm hoping people on this thread will come to agree on is that this particular enforcement was wrong (at least in the case of North Gate and people who weren't sitting in as a regular part of the band), and that, of course, ordinary jamming for fun isn't really against any law--the North Gate busts were not righteous--and is actually to be encouraged. And I hope people will entertain the very likely proposition that none of this has to do with any law at all, it's probably all about the politics of payoffs.

Read Bain's rant, some posts back. He's a Thai and a musician, and I think he tells it like it is.

I sympathize with jd for having to deal with the work permit business. That's another can of worms, especially for musicians. You get a work permit to play music in a hotel, then you can't play anywhere else, not even if someone sees the band playing at the hotel and wants to have a private party with the same band! The laws are badly written, and this is part of the problem, and why they're so widely disregarded and even scoffed at. The entire system needs to be carefully revised by people of intelligence. This will happen when pigs learn to fly, and I'm sorry we have to wait that long.

But the authorities should just leave the jamming scene alone. They do everywhere else I've been. This is the most serious sequence of busts I've ever seen, and I think it's pretty silly for people to blame the jammers and say they got what they deserved. They didn't. That's a fact.

[Ulysses G.]

And I think you or anyone else would be hard pressed to show that it hurts anyone at all. Quite the contrary, in fact, in my view.

One of the 'jamming bars' now pays Thais to play there, previously white people did the job for free.

I think I win the prize as the white free players clearly hurt the working Thai musicians .... to the tune of 2 years lost salary.

I do not agree with the law, but sarahsbloke brings up a very valid point.

[montrii]

And I think you or anyone else would be hard pressed to show that it hurts anyone at all. Quite the contrary, in fact, in my view.

One of the 'jamming bars' now pays Thais to play there, previously white people did the job for free.

I think I win the prize as the white free players clearly hurt the working Thai musicians .... to the tune of 2 years lost salary.

I do not agree with the law, but sarahsbloke brings up a very valid point.

At the risk of being redundant, and actually I'm getting tired of repeating this, but I've just got to point out: asked and answered. Nobody's saying sarahsbloke's point is not valid, as far as it goes.

However, I believe I have previously made it rather clear over numerous posts that this is beside the point. I'm not going to explain the whole thing over again, but if you'll read my posts, especially the last one, you'll see that we're not really talking about that case, which may perhaps (I'd have to be convinced a bit more) have meant that a Thai musician missed out on work. That guy was apparently working every week, just not taking money for it. My argument has NOTHING to do with him.

The point, which I'll say just one more time, is that the tradition of people occasionally jamming and playing a song or two or three in a set, really is NOT "work," and there is no downside to it. It's a worldwide tradition, and I've never before heard of musicians elsewhere in the world getting busted for that. And that even in Thailand I think it doesn't fall under this law unless some cop or official who's not getting along with a club owner wants to stretch the definition.

There are 2 points that arise here (actually more, but let's take two). 1: whether casual "jamming" is actually illegal, and 2: whether the work permit law is written well. The first one is the important one here. I don't believe what they did was actually illegal. What the guy who was working every week without pay was doing probably WAS illegal, as Ulysses G is sure he was doing that. But BiG DIFFERENCE.

I noted several posts ago that if the one guy was really doing that, the cops were within their rights to nab him. I think the law is not a good law, but I'm not questioning that arrest.

What I am saying, and it seems completely self-evident to me, and probably to anyone who really understands what jamming is all about, is that this does not fit under any category I can imagine of being actual "work." I think the police understand that. I think the bar owners know that. I think Thai lawyers know that. I think you should know that. This bust was not about "law."

I would like to know the final disposition of these cases. I bet the casual jammers' cases were just dismissed. Does anyone know? If they weren't doing anything illegal, this was harrassment, not proper police work.

Also, if people are going to comment on the thread, I suggest reading the whole thread carefully. It's sometimes hard to wade through a lot of posts organized only by the order they arrive in, but if we're trying to have an intelligent discussion here, posters should know the details of the substantive posts that have gone before.

There, I'm done. Not gonna repeat myself any more, I've made my points, repeated them even. Whew!

[Ulysses G.]

I'm not sure what your long, convoluted argument is for as I was not addressing you or your posts even though one happened to be included in the post from sarahsbloke that I refered to. As I said before, I do not agree with the law.

I do not agree with the law, but sarahsbloke brings up a very valid point.

However, I have read the whole thread and was just pointing out that sarahsbloke brought up a point worth consideration as it seems that some places are avoiding paying Thais when they can get foreigners to play for free.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[montrii]

I'm not sure what your long, convoluted argument is for as I was not addressing you or your posts even though one happened to be included in the post from sarahsbloke that I quoted and refered to. As I said before, I do not agree with the law.

However, I have read the whole thread and was just pointing out that sarahsbloke brought up a very valid point as it seems that some places are avoiding paying Thais when they can get foreigners to play for free.

I'll let my long, convoluted argument speak for itself.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I agree with the long, convoluted argument.

Even more, I think the heavy handed police approach to some guys wanting to play music while on an (extended) stay in Thailand is way over the top and does far more harm than good.

My sadness is mostly for Thailand. The musicians involved I'm sure will manage to resolve any legal proceedings, but the damage to Thailand remains.

Please somene also remind me to point out the irony next time some dude (Thai politician or expatriate TV.com windbag) starts blowing his horn about cleaning up the 'dirty' nightlife in Chiang Mai. Well, here is the emergence of somewhat of a clean, enjoyable nighttime music scene, and it get cracked down upon, while nothing gets done about 16 year old girls in bars, or even younger kids walking the streets being exploited selling trinkets.

TIT, I guess.

At the risk of getting REALLY long and convoluted, the main cause is that the Thai political system is dead in the water. Old laws are never updated, and a gray area seems to be almost deliberately fostered, with the result being that nobody is equal under the law, and police and others in power can play the system for personal gain. In a country with a working political system, a reasonable, clear and legal solution would be found, whereby performances of foreign musicians would be allowed under particular conditions. This could range from allowing an occasional hobby jam session all the way to actual work permits for professional artists. Clearly this would be of benefit to Chiang Mai as a place to visit and enjoy for foreign visitors, Thai tourists and locals alike.

Edited May 17, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[montrii]

Right on, Winnie!

[jdinasia]

And I think you or anyone else would be hard pressed to show that it hurts anyone at all. Quite the contrary, in fact, in my view.

One of the 'jamming bars' now pays Thais to play there, previously white people did the job for free.

I think I win the prize as the white free players clearly hurt the working Thai musicians .... to the tune of 2 years lost salary.

I do not agree with the law, but sarahsbloke brings up a very valid point.

Yes it does. (and it pains me to say it on several levels)

and that, of course, ordinary jamming for fun isn't really against any law

Montrii --- this is simply not true. I wish it were true, but it isn't.

Again, enforcement is the issue.

[CMX]

You know, I perceive a sense among many contributors that some Thai laws appear vague to us "Westerners."

+Too, there seems to be some opinion suggesting that, therefore, definitions of nebulous laws depend upon the police, whose interpretations may vary a bit from place to place or time to time.

++Also, I have read it suggested that criminal courts (as well as civil courts) take into consideration many factors in rendering their decisions regarding guilt or innocence, winners and losers.

=TIT

So... what's the issue here? I mean, what else is new? Consider the dozens of bullet ridden bodies in Bangkok for which we've no forensic evidence as yet, the recent tragic and mysterious deaths in Chiang Mai - or that Canadian chap who was shot to death in Pai years ago.

That is, where's the surprise and what am I supposed to do that (effectively) can change anything? Except myself, I suppose, as with the study and practice of Buddhism.

Edited May 17, 2011 by CMX

[montrii]

and that, of course, ordinary jamming for fun isn't really against any law

Montrii --- this is simply not true. I wish it were true, but it isn't.

jdinasia, if you are truly knowledgeable on this point, please cite chapter and verse. I still do not believe jamming is against the law. Please, if you can find it, tell us exactly where the law says this. What I have been told indicates otherwise. So . . . evidence to the contrary? I am waiting with open eyes and an open mind.

[Paagai]

Even more, I think the heavy handed police approach to some guys wanting to play music while on an (extended) stay in Thailand is way over the top and does far more harm than good.

My sadness is mostly for Thailand. The musicians involved I'm sure will manage to resolve any legal proceedings, but the damage to Thailand remains.

Please somene also remind me to point out the irony next time some dude (Thai politician or expatriate TV.com windbag) starts blowing his horn about cleaning up the 'dirty' nightlife in Chiang Mai. Well, here is the emergence of somewhat of a clean, enjoyable nighttime music scene, and it get cracked down upon, while nothing gets done about 16 year old girls in bars, or even younger kids walking the streets being exploited selling trinkets.

I believe the "heavy handed police approach" is not what it seems. It's well know that night life in Chiang Mai exists because of a discreet but well established "system" of payments to those who matter. If we didn't have that system everyone would be headed home to bed at midnight, no discos, no late night Karaoke places and certainly no whores or massage joints. I think it's easy to forget that, and people should be careful what they wish for when talking about enforcement.

I see these couple of incidents with Farangs as being not at all about the police caring what a few Farang musicians do, but about maintaining "the system" and the status quo. In that sense they are not "over the top" at all. I'm sure bars will have no problems having Farangs playing music, if they do so in accordance with "the system". I would imagine these raids will have been followed up by a number of discreet visits to music venues all over town explaining how "the system" works and what contributions are required These raids are just part of the power game that happens before the negotiation of "new rates". Especially right now in the months before the election there has been a clear tendency to "make hay while the sun is still shining".

Get over your sadness for Thailand, I'm sure everyone would really be much sadder if night life was cleaned up and everyone headed home alone before midnight Save your sadness for those Farangs, (and some Thai's) who think they can do what they like in Thailand and ignore "The System".

Edited May 17, 2011 by Paagai

[sarahsbloke]

I discovered a new bar last Friday

Live Thai band playing Thai rock

First 3 large Changs for 100bht (140bht for 3 after that)

3 Coyote dancers on stage with the band (shorts and crop tops)

15 serving girls aged 20+ all wearing high heels and short shorts (men don't pour drinks in Thai bars)

I really don't understand why anyone would want to go to a 'farang bar' pay for overpriced beer and listen to white men playing music badly.

The music scene in CM rocks, and it doesn't involve white amateurs.

[DavidOxon]

I discovered a new bar last Friday

Live Thai band playing Thai rock

First 3 large Changs for 100bht (140bht for 3 after that)

3 Coyote dancers on stage with the band (shorts and crop tops)

15 serving girls aged 20+ all wearing high heels and short shorts (men don't pour drinks in Thai bars)

I really don't understand why anyone would want to go to a 'farang bar' pay for overpriced beer and listen to white men playing music badly.

The music scene in CM rocks, and it doesn't involve white amateurs.

Making a good point BUT missing THE point completely...

[WinnieTheKhwai]

You know, I perceive a sense among many contributors that some Thai laws appear vague to us "Westerners."

+Too, there seems to be some opinion suggesting that, therefore, definitions of nebulous laws depend upon the police, whose interpretations may vary a bit from place to place or time to time.

++Also, I have read it suggested that criminal courts (as well as civil courts) take into consideration many factors in rendering their decisions regarding guilt or innocence, winners and losers.

=TIT

So... what's the issue here? I mean, what else is new? Consider the dozens of bullet ridden bodies in Bangkok for which we've no forensic evidence as yet, the recent tragic and mysterious deaths in Chiang Mai - or that Canadian chap who was shot to death in Pai years ago.

That is, where's the surprise and what am I supposed to do that (effectively) can change anything? Except myself, I suppose, as with the study and practice of Buddhism.

Right. Occasionally I catch myself dreaming about a Thailand where I see improvement in some of these areas. The far more rational response of course would be to say 'Ah Whatever' and have another Chang, and buy a little plastic helicopter with LED lights from a little girl on the street. You win some you lose some; okay, the music scene isn't as vibrant as it could have been, but at least shopping for cheap toys for the kids is convenient as it can be combined with drinking beer and chatting up bargirls.

[Diablo Bob]

I discovered a new bar last Friday

Live Thai band playing Thai rock

First 3 large Changs for 100bht (140bht for 3 after that)

3 Coyote dancers on stage with the band (shorts and crop tops)

15 serving girls aged 20+ all wearing high heels and short shorts (men don't pour drinks in Thai bars)

I really don't understand why anyone would want to go to a 'farang bar' pay for overpriced beer and listen to white men playing music badly.

The music scene in CM rocks, and it doesn't involve white amateurs.

Making a good point BUT missing THE point completely...

Totally correct , you failed to give us the name and address of this new bar.....

[Kilgore Trout]

I discovered a new bar last Friday

Live Thai band playing Thai rock

First 3 large Changs for 100bht (140bht for 3 after that)

3 Coyote dancers on stage with the band (shorts and crop tops)

15 serving girls aged 20+ all wearing high heels and short shorts (men don't pour drinks in Thai bars)

I really don't understand why anyone would want to go to a 'farang bar' pay for overpriced beer and listen to white men playing music badly.

The music scene in CM rocks, and it doesn't involve white amateurs.

Wow, you should change "white men" to "black men," "asians," etc. and re-read your post. You truly are a racist; by definition

I think people should be able to play music no matter what race they are

Edited May 17, 2011 by Kilgore Trout