Sexual Orientation Linked To Personal Identity

[Jingthing]

Eeeh this is better than Saturday nights in Lumbini

Or just as boring, depending on your perspective.

Yes, LeC, I disagree strongly with JT and IJWT's idea that "homosexual labeling" and "what we regard as homosexuality TODAY" is either a new or a Western idea (I find that proposal simply ridiculous) but identifying different sexual attitudes in different societies isn't solely for academic or intellectual purposes - or at least it shouldn't be.

Do me a favor, OK, dude? Please do not refer to me personally ever again as long as you insist on shamelessly distorting what I have said. Thanks muchly.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Yes those were my words, not the distorted paraphrasing of them. I trust intelligent readers will pick up the huge difference in actual intended meaning.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Jingthing

[SweatiePie]

..... intelligent readers ......

I think they're both otherwise occupied .....

[jdinasia]

..... intelligent readers ......

I think they're both otherwise occupied .....

Sorry, I was busy ......

Outside of some areas with a large "gay" western contingent the term itself just doesn't fly, which makes the concept flawed. "Gay" as understood in many areas of Thailand is used interchangeably with Khathoey* and only refers to men which are "femme" ....Thus the idea of "gay man" outside of these ghettos will draw an odd look from the listener since they see people as either "gay" or a "man."

[LeCharivari]

..... Outside of some areas with a large "gay" western contingent the term itself just doesn't fly, which makes the concept flawed. "Gay" as understood in many areas of Thailand is used interchangeably with Khathoey* and only refers to men which are "femme" ....Thus the idea of "gay man" outside of these ghettos will draw an odd look from the listener since they see people as either "gay" or a "man."

Maybe its not the "concept" that's flawed but the "term"?

My Thai is far from fluent, but from my own experience you are only technically correct: "Gay" is indeed usually interchangeable with "khatoey" so usually "only refers to men which are "femme" (to a greater or lesser degree, as SP said previously) - thus my partner would be considered "gay" while I would be a "real man", regardless of what we may or may not do in bed.

That, though, is probably not the reason for the "odd look". In my experience Thais tend not to categorise people in the same way that we do in the West, as SP explained at some length, because they don't see it as of as much importance or significance as we do, so while we may "see people as either "gay" or a "man"' they generally don't because they are categorising them differently - who wais who rather than who sleeps with who.

Those Thais who would categorise by sexual preference probably wouldn't use the words "gay" or "kathoey" at all - one is a Western word, after all, while although the other is a Thai word it isn't synonymous (I like that word!) with "gay". What they'd probably use, if they used them at all, would be gaan-rak-ruam-pet for homosexuality, rak-ruam-pet (same sex love) for a homosexual and rak-tang-pet (opposite sex love) for a heterosexual.

Sometimes I suffer from these intellectual attacks, like a migraine .....

[jdinasia]

I agree that the issue is trying to put ANY Western framework on sexuality in Thailand. Most of my Thai friends would more simply state "he likes guys" (in Thai) .. and leave it at that IF they ever bothered to mention it at all. (Which is why I think it is the concept that is flawed and not the terminology. Who you sleep with just isn't that big of an issue here other than as simple gossip ... which in its own way is a national pasttime ... just like in the West. What is missing is the usual nastiness that goes along with the rumors

[LeCharivari]

Most of my Thai friends would more simply state "he likes guys" (in Thai) .. and leave it at that IF they ever bothered to mention it at all.

Exactly my experience, jd!

Chop poo-chay / chop poo-ying / chop kahtoey, etc. The "labels" have always been there, but no-one really cared in comparison to the West. Having a "gay" partner but being a "man" gives a whole new twist to "I'm not gay but my boyfriend is"!

A really amusing example of cultural mis-understanding I have seen recently are the Honda-sponsored police adverts going up around Pattaya promoting "0 accidents", with a Thai policeman holding up his right arm, hand raised, with his thumb and forefinger touching and making an "0" or zero. Unfortunately in some cultures, particularly the East Europeans who are in the area in ever growing numbers, it means either "<deleted> you!" or "you're a big c*nt!"

[tombkk]

Most of my Thai friends would more simply state "he likes guys" (in Thai) .. and leave it at that IF they ever bothered to mention it at all.

Exactly my experience, jd!

Chop poo-chay / chop poo-ying / chop kahtoey, etc. The "labels" have always been there, but no-one really cared in comparison to the West. Having a "gay" partner but being a "man" gives a whole new twist to "I'm not gay but my boyfriend is"!

A really amusing example of cultural mis-understanding I have seen recently are the Honda-sponsored police adverts going up around Pattaya promoting "0 accidents", with a Thai policeman holding up his right arm, hand raised, with his thumb and forefinger touching and making an "0" or zero. Unfortunately in some cultures, particularly the East Europeans who are in the area in ever growing numbers, it means either "<deleted> you!" or "you're a big c*nt!"

What makes you sure that this is a cultural misunderstanding? Do not underestimate the Thais. They can be subtle at times. I think the judgement is still open on this one.

[LeCharivari]

You may be right, Tom, particularly as when accompanied by appropriate hand-waving it also means "you w*nker" to Brits and Aussies!

[kevindk]

the title and the OP reminds me the very first topic in our Southeast Asian Study lecture - Gender and Sex, a link to identity and the mentioned topic had been discussed within Thai culture- during my school days. It was long time ago but the concept is still with me, though I doubt it's rather rusty now. In fact, they tried to make up or consolidate a comprehensive understanding on one's IDENTITY which obviously comprised of various structural components (social norm, geography even biography etc). Having said that, Gender and sex were proposed to be differentiated clearly when one is making/drawing/hypothesizing an identity. Simply, each social norms has different categories/partitions for SEX and GENDER too. So on and so on, it would take a never-ending serious talk and we can keep this up to a complicated study, say within Thai culture/social context.

By the way, from the response, I would say not many people here like this intellectual topic (?). Personally, I think regular members prefer a more casual (yet practical) topic. It's nothing wrong as people (including myself) likes to visit favorite place where I can talk comfortably, with least effort of thinking too much about myself vs. other big things outside there. JT, you may create your group and further discuss your "insightful" idea. Would that way attract more constructive replies?

Cheers,

Kevin

PS: BTW, I'm not an English-native speaker thus I found it ridiculous when someone tried to catch others' posts on grammatical/spelling errors. Likewise this case, why bother if you can understand what I tried (hard) to say? is that language created to let people communicate?

[Jingthing]

Even if I wanted to (I don't) I don't have the power to form my own forum here. Cheers.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[endure]

You could always ask admin whether you can have a Jingthing sub-forum

[angmo]

Goodness - typical bunch of queens trying to out-intellectualise each other.

[Jingthing]

Goodness - typical bunch of queens trying to out-intellectualise each other.

Self hating gays meetup?

[Ijustwannateach]

Some posts by duplicate accounts talking to each other have been removed. Duplicate accounts and sockpuppeting are not permitted on Thaivisa; please consult the rules before posting.

[tombkk]

Goodness - typical bunch of queens trying to out-intellectualise each other.

Gotta love, doncha?