Alcoholism

[trisailer]

Strike up the violins! Get out the pity pots and let's all have a good old fashion pity party for those poor pathetic souls who want to be free from the compulsion to drink, but don't actually want to do "the work" or anything different from what they have been doing all along.

Their way is what brought them to the point of crisis. It is said that insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. Their way hasn't worked, ever. If you think you have a problem with alcohol the prescription is simple; 90 meetings in 90 days, get a sponsor, keep your mouth shut and if your one of the lucky ones you may be transformed and that transformation may fortify you in your daily choice to not drink.

Anything short of that is less likely to work. Anyone who plays poker understands the law of averages. Why wouldn't anyone want to improve their odds of eliminating their dependence on alcohol? The single greatest reason is that when alcoholics stop drinking they are faced (honestly)with the wreckage of their lives and begin to see themselves for what they really are (and what others have seen all along) and not what they, with the help of alcohol, have deluded themselves into believing.

There is no "God" and alcoholism is not a disease in the traditional sense that you can pick it up from others, but what does it matter what you call it. It is characterized by "my life is unmanageable with alcohol. I can't predict what will happen when I start drinking. Maybe I'll fall down and hurt myself, maybe I'll crash my car and KILL an INNOCENT victim. How irresponsible, selfish and narcissistic does one have to be to be able to rationalize the risk they put on others?

God is in your brain. Compulsive behavior is a result of a loss of impulse control. Impulse control is a natural, necessary brain function and everyone has it. Alcohol kills impulse control and that is why it's so popular in small doses. For those of you who need help turning your brain back on AA is one way to do it.

The single most important thing to me is my integrity. Alcohol took it away, but I got it back. They say that the worst sort of person is a reformed alcoholic and it is true to the extent that when I now see people behaving badly and most importantly putting others at risk it makes me angry and I want to see them suffer. It makes me angry to hear people talking about AA like they know something about it from attending a few meetings. You don't know anything about AA because you haven't "worked the program"

I haven't been to a AA meeting for 20 years, but what I learned there has stayed with me and I will be forever grateful for the "brainwashing" I recieved which allow me to take back my life and get on with it. It troubles me to hear fools talk about it like it's some kind of hobby club when in fact it is a serious process for saving lives.

Edited May 16, 2011 by trisailer

[saraburioz]

Those last two, eloquently written posts are so full of wisdom - I'm really impressed. :jap:

[Head Snake]

I have enjoyed reading this thread.

I think the main subject is does God cure alcoholism or what is the role of God in curing alcoholism?

First off, the person who is drinking may have completely different interpretation of "God" and alcoholism than persons who deal with both issues daily.

After attending AA, my interpretation of both radicallly changed.

AA gave me the ability to stop fighting my aversion to God. I no longer cringe or get irratible if someone mentions God. Nobody at AA ever asked me me to describe my higher power. Nobody at AA gave me instuctions on their HP. If the word "God" or "taxes" or "pattaya" or any word bothers you, you likely need to find a way to let that petty stuff go.

The end result is this makes my life more open to me being a part of life - a group conscience, an earth conscience, a universal energy conscience - whatever. It just stops me from grinding at my preconceptions which makes life much more bearable and waallaaaa - this makes my sober life better and makes me not resort to the normal medicinal cure I used before, having a drink.

I don't want to try and debate what alcoholism is. Let's just say it includes the character traits that make us want to drink as well as the physical desires to just get drunk. I agree with people that it is up to the individual to work on both aspects. If just "believing" that something is bigger than you and letting go to that something helps you not have a drink or helps you to change your feelings/emotions, then use it as a tool.

AA cured me of my obsession to buy self help books. I think that is enough evidence for me that it works.

FYI, I am a fringe AA member who has resentments against AA but doesn't let those resentments stop me from attending meetings. usually, I can glean a number of good things from any meeting.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Head Snake

[GrahamF]

Thank you Sheryl and Trisailer for your excellent posts. Lot's of good advice and wisdom in both!

Trisailers version of working the program made me laugh as it is almost exactly the same advice I got from a friend when I told her I was going to put myself in a detox and then go to AA.

She said:

1) Start going to meetings as soon as you get out and go to at least one a day, if not more.

2) Shut your mouth and open your ears! (She didn't mean to not participate, but to be open and listen to what others were saying)

3) Find a sponsor who will challenge you and will/can make you feel uncomfortable and work the 12 steps from the Big Book.

Some of the best advice I have ever gotten! I was chatting with her awhile ago and thanked her for her great advice, she laughed and said, "I didn't come up with that, I heard it from an AA 20+ years ago!"

[krangeek]

"An overwhelming majority of the world’s medical experts are now agreed that alcoholism is a disease"

Go tell that to my full blown lao khao swigging alcoholic Chinese chum who's still managed to observe the three months Buiddhist Lent, Kao Pansa, over the fourteen years I've known him.

Take some responsibility for yourselves. And that includes you fat bstrds too ... back away from the fork ...

[krangeek]

AA cured me of my obsession to buy self help books. I think that is enough evidence for me that it works.

You're kidding, right?

[StreetCowboy]

AA cured me of my obsession to buy self help books. I think that is enough evidence for me that it works.

You're kidding, right?

There's nothing laughable about buying books, sonny.

The pen is mightier than the sword...

He's just experiencing his hare and soap so that others may solve their conman problem...

SC

[GrahamF]

A friend of mine emailed me this quote this morning, thought I'd pass it on..........I don't feel that this quote is condemning books, it just emphasizes going out and doing the work. Kind of like homework

The work will teach you how to do it.

—Estonian proverb

We learn this spiritual program as we learned to ride a bike or to swim. We could never get it from reading a book. We only learn it by doing it and by following the example of others. As we first entered the program, we may have thought, "Oh I understand this. In twelve meetings I'll have it licked."

Many men have had difficulty trusting, so we try to understand everything before we get involved in it. But as long as we try to figure it out first, we remain on the outside looking in. Doing the practical things in this program - taking inventories and making amends, asking for guidance from our Higher Power, carrying the message to others, selecting a sponsor, will teach us the essentials for spiritual recovery.

Today, I will take the risk of learning by living the spiritual life.

[Mobi]

....this is AA hypocrisy at its worst. They preach one thing and practise something entirely different. ..

Mobi,

Who on earth is "they" ???

AA is not a hierarchal organization, it is a fellowship. Since meetings are open to all who wish to stop drinking, naturally a wide range of individuals attend. And since everyone works their own program (or not, as the case may be) in their own way and at their own pace, there is naturally a wide variation in people's progress. Some people do indeed adopt the form but not the substance of the program -- their loss.

It is IMO a form of distorted thinking to zoom in on the least developed individuals in an AA group and insist that they somehow embody what AA "is". Ignore them and focus on those in the group who are better examples. And if there aren't any, attend a different meeting, since the tone of meetings do vary according to the individuals in the group.

Looking for "evidence" that something doesn't work by finding individuals who claim to practice it but are flawed/not progressing is a common but self-destructive tactic. It is important to recognize this because it will otherwise block you not just from being able to gain from what the AA program has to offer but also from benefiting from any path to sobriety or personal development. Because you name it, they've all got people who claim to be practising them but don't embody their principles. Human beings are fallible and imperfect and even given the best of tools, some people will make a mess with them.

There is a term in AA for what you are doing -- "taking other peoples inventories" instead of your own. The only "personal inventory" worth taking is your own.

If you bothered to read my post properly, I would have though it was pretty obvious who 'They' are. They are the ones who I wrote about in my post. I was not referring to AA in general - I was referring to individual members who, as I said, 'preach one thing and practise something entirely different. ..'

I never tried to claim that all AA members were like this nor did I try to suggest that AA was a hierarchical organization. I was writing about individual members, of whom, in my 4 year experience, there are quite a few.

With the utmost respect, I have to take you to task about what you are saying. It is perfectly natural for anyone who attends AA meetings and is seeking to find sobriety to listen to, and take comfort and advice from fellow members - especially those 'senior members' who have chalked up decades of sobriety and claim they work the 12 steps in the daily lives.

Their personal integrity and way such people behave will obviously have a great influence on whether the newcomer will accept what the AA has to offer, and indeed the AA ethos.

I totally reject the accusation that I 'zoom in on the least developed individuals in an AA group and insist that they somehow embody what AA "is"'. This is a discussion forum and I am making some points about certain members of AA who are clearly hypocrital, including one who has behaved in such a manner in Thai Visa in subjecting me to personal attacks.

Although I wouldn't deny that the presence of such members at AA meetings is a bit of a 'put off', this is not the reason that I have stopped attending AA. In reality I have stopped going because I cannot accept the spiritual aspects of the AA programme and as I seem to be doing quiet well without them, I have just drifted away. I will never rule out the possibility of returning at some future point, and as I must have said at least a dozen times in this forum alone, I still recommend - urge even - anyone who is seeking sobriety to attend AA meetings.

Is this still 'zooming in on the least developed individuals in an AA group and insist that they somehow embody what AA "is"'? Surely I am entitled to discuss the very common occurrence of hypocrites at AA meetings without being accused of having 'distorted thinking'? It is almost as if you are full of the patronising AA missionary zeal that I so object to.

Please accept this repost in the spirit in which it is intended - a healthy debate on a subject which I feel passionate about.

[saraburioz]

Mobi - I was going to say something about that post. It was totally wrong and IMHO an apology is warranted.

I suggest you take your head out your ****.

I'm not in AA of now but know it is a great organization. Because it is a fellowship of mentally sick people, there are going to be some nutters , don't you think?

Another thing - you are in Pattaya, think about it, do you think it is a fair cross-representation of AA members?

How many active sex-addicts do you really think are progressing on the spiritual way. I would be tempted to say that many alcoholics have substituted one drug for another. I've just read your blog and see you are a self-proclaimed 'whoremonger" to use your term. Would this be part of the reason you don't want to work the AA program and now you have a resentment against the whole organization?

[StreetCowboy]

Mobi - I was going to say something about that post. It was totally wrong and IMHO an apology is warranted.

I suggest you take your head out your ****.

I'm not in AA of now but know it is a great organization. Because it is a fellowship of mentally sick people, there are going to be some nutters , don't you think?

Another thing - you are in Pattaya, think about it, do you think it is a fair cross-representation of AA members?

How many active sex-addicts do you really think are progressing on the spiritual way. I would be tempted to say that many alcoholics have substituted one drug for another. I've just read your blog and see you are a self-proclaimed 'whoremonger" to use your term. Would this be part of the reason you don't want to work the AA program and now you have a resentment against the whole organization?

I'm not sure that you should be attacking Mobi because you don't share his hobby.

SC

[snarky66]

Getting Interesting.

Edited May 16, 2011 by snarky66

[RickThai]

Wow, it's impressive to realize just how serious everyone is on the thread when it comes to Alcoholism.

StreetCowboy:

"Anyway, there's an arsehol_e behind us wherever we go, so we have to learn to live with them"

Funny, I've never heard it put just like that!

The one I've heard goes:

"Opinions are like arsehol_es, everybodies got one, but not everybody wants to know about yours."

Patsycat

Thank you for your comments. I was motivated this weekend to rummage through some old papers to find out exactly where I stayed. It was in Schaffehausen and I stayed at the Rheinhotel Fischerzunft. The chef was Andre Jaeger. If you are ever in the region I would highly recommend both the Hotel and the Restaurant, (especially if someone else is paying.).

Regards to All

Rick

Edited May 16, 2011 by RickThai

[StreetCowboy]

Is it OK to bring in soap powder? Icing sugar?

SC

EDIT: Help ma boab! wrong thread! I meant to post this one on the 'constructive advice for drug smugglers' thread; sorry, folks

Edited May 16, 2011 by StreetCowboy

[Mobi]

Mobi - I was going to say something about that post. It was totally wrong and IMHO an apology is warranted.

I suggest you take your head out your ****.

I'm not in AA of now but know it is a great organization. Because it is a fellowship of mentally sick people, there are going to be some nutters , don't you think?

Another thing - you are in Pattaya, think about it, do you think it is a fair cross-representation of AA members?

How many active sex-addicts do you really think are progressing on the spiritual way. I would be tempted to say that many alcoholics have substituted one drug for another. I've just read your blog and see you are a self-proclaimed 'whoremonger" to use your term. Would this be part of the reason you don't want to work the AA program and now you have a resentment against the whole organization?

I'm not sure that you should be attacking Mobi because you don't share his hobby.

SC

Yes SC, the world - and AA - seems to be divided between the pious crowd who hate everything I do and write about, and those, (by far the majority), who thoroughly approve and cheer me on.

It is amazing though, in this day and age, how how many straight laced prigs still exist - even in Thailand - but I'll bet, a vast majority of these secretly wish they could have half the fun that I do.

Those who respond to this post are probably right at the top of the envy stakes....

BTW, saraburioz, now that you've read my blog, quite what is it that you are suggesting that I keep my head out of?

[tjansen]

There is an annual roundup in Khon Khaen in July. I believe this year it is the second weekend in July. There is also one in Pattaya. I don't know what month that one is in off hand. There could be more roundups taking place as a particular area gets enough members that are interested in having this weekend celebration of sobriety.

I didn't read all of the posts, so this might be redundant. When I first started going to AA meetings in 1981 in the US, I heard someone say in a meeting, "If you don't do the fourth and fifth steps, you will likely drink again. I believed that and finally gave in and worked the fourth and fifth steps back then. I was getting more and more crazy and miserable in sobriety. I was getting desperate enough to follow the suggestion.

My analysis of this fact is that, meetings and support can work for quite a while, months and even years, but in the end, if I don't work the steps, especially the "resistance" steps, four and five, I will not change, not clear up my self-defeating guilt, and I will be left with no choice but to try drinking again, using euphoric recall, or just out of despair.

As we used to say, Don;t drink, read the Big Book, go to meetings, and eat hard candy. And later I added, work steps four and five before resuming drinking. It worked for me. My life is free and beautiful.

By the way, what I learned 29 years later was that I had stopped my growth in AA by resisting Step 11. Since coming to Thailand, I have started meditating, formally, and my interest in AA, especially the 12th step, has been reawakened.

Tom

It's the easy test to ask an alcoholic if he has done step 5. If not, he will eventually drink again.

I have friend who is in AA and came to Thailand to increase his spirituality. Isn't that what AA is all about?

I heard that AA have their annual get together in Pattaya - I really can't understand this. Could anyone in AA explain this to me.

I've been to AA but haven't done step 5. or step 4,6,7,8,9,10,11,12. Maybe one day if it get's unbearable.

[trisailer]

"Yes SC, the world - and AA - seems to be divided between the pious crowd who hate everything I do and write about, and those, (by far the majority), who thoroughly approve and cheer me on"

I have to question the integrity of a man who bases his life on winning the approval of others (who are just like him) . There is no end to the number of men who live life without honor and integrity who have failed to grow up and be complete and balanced men. Bar stools are full of them. Some men will look at a 63 year old man behaving like a 15 year old and see it as pathetic. Nothing pious about it.

I know many men including myself who come here and enjoy the lifestyle of partying and butterflying and girls but retain their honorable boundaries. They don't drive drunk. They don't cheat and lie. Nothing pious about it. I had more fun when I was single here than anyone and I didn't have to act like a fool to do it.

I've read some of your blog and I don't see fun. I see desperation, disorder, dysfunction and an arrogant, narcissistic asshol_e risking other people lives like a wrecking ball at a demolition site. That you so freely advertise it is doubly pathetic

[trisailer]

"My life is free and beautiful."

Excellent post Tom. It's a beautiful thing when people work the program and are transformed. Thank you for your example

[trisailer]

"I heard that AA have their annual get together in Pattaya - I really can't understand this. Could anyone in AA explain this to me"

I think it is customary for AA groups to get togather for an annual gathering. They usually have great speakers who are quite entertaining.

Speaking of that You may want to check out the "Joe and Charlie" tapes. They are excellent. There are several other national speakers who a entertaining while reenforcing the AA message. I would think that these would be great for those of us who are expats. I think you can find them and download them from google.

[kerryk]

I don't know how many members regularly attend AA meetings in Pattaya. I would think a couple of hundred. I have met some fine people there. Some famous people. I have met some people who meant and still mean a lot to me. Some have died.

Most a lot better people than I and a few not so good. Some really helped me when I needed help. One even got me a better job than the one I had.

I met a lot who went way out of their way to help another person.

For me during my attendance at AA meetings in numerous places over 15 years Pattaya has been the most memorable experience and best AA meeting experience.

Every alcoholic goes through stages. Not always the same but for the most part predictable. People who have long term attendance at meetings and are currently involved in AA have, I think, a bit of a different attitude than people who are not attending meetings and not actively involved in the program.

I do think it is courageous to post alcoholic experiences and open yourself up to scrutiny.

[Patsycat]

Mobi - I was going to say something about that post. It was totally wrong and IMHO an apology is warranted.

I suggest you take your head out your ****.

I'm not in AA of now but know it is a great organization. Because it is a fellowship of mentally sick people, there are going to be some nutters , don't you think?

Another thing - you are in Pattaya, think about it, do you think it is a fair cross-representation of AA members?

How many active sex-addicts do you really think are progressing on the spiritual way. I would be tempted to say that many alcoholics have substituted one drug for another. I've just read your blog and see you are a self-proclaimed 'whoremonger" to use your term. Would this be part of the reason you don't want to work the AA program and now you have a resentment against the whole organization?

I'm not sure that you should be attacking Mobi because you don't share his hobby.

SC

I think Mobi is doing, sober, exactely what he did when he was drunk. He is no spring chicken, he has been sober for 4 months and god knows how many days. Good on him. So, he is pottering out to all his old haunts and drinking coke light. Just to show he can!!

Good on you Mobi, that must have taken a few balls.

Why should Mobi stay at home in his house because he doesn't drink anymore? He goes out, meets his pals and does his thing. Without alcohol.

Mobi, you know with this post i didn't want to put you down to one of those pottering old fools!

Or a sex addict. Well, maybe one addiction leads to another.

I wonder where mine will go....!!

Edited May 17, 2011 by Patsycat

[wandrinstar]

Gods.?.Up to You,as Thais would say.I gave up the Demon Drink with little effort , but find smoking hard to stop .Mainly because of No Smoking Bores and Signs that remind me I've stopped.I wish they would erect Motorcycles Fumes kill More a Day signs. Anyway, my Question. I went through Hell with Muscle Pains for the first 3 Months, so much so i nearly gave up.Has anyone else found it so?. I now also find i cant mix with the Old Crowd, i get bored with the Repetition very quickly.Its worth it though,you feel So Much Brighter and Cheerful. Another bonus is your Vision improves. Is this just me that's noticed these changes..?.

[Patsycat]

I have a friend who went to a detox clinic - it was drink or lose your job.

We have spoken on the phone and he said to me that i was the only one of his friends who has called him in the last few months to check up on him. He is sober.

We shall meet for a coffee next week. Yes, i can drink coffee!!

I am still swayed one way or the other with AA. After reading all your stories. As i said before, I don't want to see someone I know there. And then have to see them again.

Just rolling out my thoughts. If any of you met me in person you would know that i am the nicest person. And Thairick - I am pretty!!

The worst thing - another story.

[ThaiPauly]

^She is pretty, I've seen a picture of her.

[trisailer]

"I am still swayed one way or the other with AA. After reading all your stories. As i said before, I don't want to see someone I know there. And then have to see them again."

Perhaps the reason that you don't want to see someone you know there is because it will force you to take a look at yourself and accept that you and them are in the same boat. It is so much harder to delude yourself when sitting amongst a group of people from different backgrounds that have the same affliction as you. My experience was that it was exactly what I needed to stop kidding myself and set my ego aside. My favorite meeting, and the place I picked up a white chip was in the worst side of town. The drunks that came to that meeting were the bottom of the barrel and I learned to love those people because they were there, doing the exact same thing that I was doing trying to recover, trying to learn a new way of living, trying to grow and get a grip on their life. There is no status in AA. I met doctors, lawyers and people who lived under bridges and we were all the same in AA.

Nobody cares if your nice or if your pretty. AA is for people trying to stop drinking. I'm sorry to burst your bubble but drunks are not "nice" people they bring destruction on themselves and Innocent others. If you commit to the program 90/90 you may be lucky enough to learn what honesty to yourself is and you will see yourself in a different light.

[GrahamF]

I have a friend who went to a detox clinic - it was drink or lose your job.

We have spoken on the phone and he said to me that i was the only one of his friends who has called him in the last few months to check up on him. He is sober.

We shall meet for a coffee next week. Yes, i can drink coffee!!

I am still swayed one way or the other with AA. After reading all your stories. As i said before, I don't want to see someone I know there. And then have to see them again.

Just rolling out my thoughts. If any of you met me in person you would know that i am the nicest person. And Thairick - I am pretty!!

The worst thing - another story.

Quite a number of AA's I know have said that many of their drinking buddies disappeared after they had quit drinking and then they realized that they really had nothing,or not much, in common with these people other than the booze. This is not always the case but it is not unusual.

As far as running into someone you know, I feel your angst, I was a little nervous about that as well. Turns out that I didn't know anybody at first, although later I did run into a neighbor in a meeting and it wasn't a big deal. I live in an urban area with a lot of foot traffic and I run into AA's I now know almost everyday. If it's someone I've never seen outside of a meeting before, I usually just nod and smile a hello and let it go at that. Normally most people will stop and say hi and have a chat, just like two friends meeting by chance on the street. Sure, there are some people who I'd rather not see and they might not want to see me, who knows, but that's not a big deal either. I have to say, at least in my area, that it really feels like a fellowship and I'd say that 90%+ of the people I have met in AA are really decent & kind people, now that they are sober. Now, I really enjoy meeting fellow AA's by accident and I now socialize with quite a few on a regular basis.

I was lucky enough to attend an AA meeting in Zurich earlier this year and the folks there were great as well, they met us out for dinner before the meeting and were really glad to have us attend their meeting. Looks like i might be going to Glasgow this weekend and I am hoping that I will be able to attend a meeting there as well.

[trisailer]

"The unexamined life is not worth living ." Socrates said that at his trial for heresy.

The first thing that you have to chuck at the door is your ego and then you can celebrate examining your life with others who are doing the same thing.

[kerryk]

I have a friend who went to a detox clinic - it was drink or lose your job.

We have spoken on the phone and he said to me that i was the only one of his friends who has called him in the last few months to check up on him. He is sober.

We shall meet for a coffee next week. Yes, i can drink coffee!!

I am still swayed one way or the other with AA. After reading all your stories. As i said before, I don't want to see someone I know there. And then have to see them again.

Just rolling out my thoughts. If any of you met me in person you would know that i am the nicest person. And Thairick - I am pretty!!

The worst thing - another story.

Men and women at an AA meeting is a complicated subject. A woman getting advice from a man about AA is a complicated subject. Best find an all woman's AA meeting and ask your questions there.

I fear, although well intentioned the advice you get about AA from alcoholics who are not regular AA members and not of your gender may be flawed.

Not saying it is but it may be. If you are afraid of who you may run into at the meeting, go early and get a couple of phone numbers from ladies who are at the meeting before the scheduled start time. There are usually a few who show up early to make coffee and arrange the room. I sense you would rather talk to men but about AA it is best you talk to women.

[Mobi]

I think Mobi is doing, sober, exactely what he did when he was drunk. He is no spring chicken, he has been sober for 4 months and god knows how many days. Good on him. So, he is pottering out to all his old haunts and drinking coke light. Just to show he can!!

Good on you Mobi, that must have taken a few balls.

Why should Mobi stay at home in his house because he doesn't drink anymore? He goes out, meets his pals and does his thing. Without alcohol.

Mobi, you know with this post i didn't want to put you down to one of those pottering old fools!

Or a sex addict. Well, maybe one addiction leads to another.

I wonder where mine will go....!!

Well I am a pottering old fool, so don't worry about it

yes, Annie you are correct. For the first 2 months or so of my sobriety I kept pretty much clear of bars except for the occasional visit to a pub on a Saturday afternoon to chat with an old friend. In fact, in the very early days the only place I went out to was AA meetings. But as the alcohol started to clear from my body and as I started to re-join the human race, I did venture out more and resume some of my previous activities, albeit just supping coffee, tea and diet coke with the occasional orange juice.

As time has gone on, the fact that the people around me at the pubs and bars are all drinking alcoholic drinks has bothered me less and less and quite frankly I don't really notice it any more.

One thing about the establishments that I like to patronise is that they are not really places for heavy drinkers to get drunk and prop up the bars - they are places to meet lovely young ladies and drinking in such places is not particularly high profile. I spend my time there chatting and playing with the girls, not with farang boozers, who, now that I stay sober, can bore me very quickly.

Right now, at 4 months and 18 days sober, I feel very confident in my sobriety and do not need the support of AA to maintain it. I know that a single lapse could prove catastrophic for me in all kinds of ways - not least if which would be my fragile health, and I know that I am 'powerless over alcohol' - as my AA friends would have me state. I know that I can never, ever, be a moderate drinker and it has taken me all these years to finally come to this obvious conclusion.

Most alcoholics spend their entire lives thinking that one of these days they can get their act together and become moderate drinkers, and yet others spend countless years 'researching' this notion, until, with AA's help they finally realise that it is impossible.

For this alcoholic, my research is definitely over over and I will be very surprised if I ever pick up another drink as I know it will spell death and disaster.

So unless I have a death wish, the rest of my life will be alcohol free.

But I reserve the right to indulge my other addictions as I see fit - a horny old man's gotta have some fun in his dotage

[Johnniey]

Mobi - you haven't upset me. Yes, I am sensitive, but that is irrelevant However, I don't appreciate some of your writings. Basically what you're saying is that people in AA who have a faith in God are somehow still 'sick' or inferior to yourself who has 'common sense and reasoning'. You say you respect 'these people' but do you really?

I don't don't why it is that you always seem to misunderstand, or dare I say it - twist my words.

Sick? - for sure - whether or not they have a faith in God. Alcoholism is a disease, therefore the sufferers must be sick. Further, many of them admit to having a range of other sicknesses, most commonly, one or other form of depression.

My contention is that these sicknesses, in which I am a fellow sufferer, leads some to grasp at spirituality as a way to save them from their alcohol addiction. I do not consider myself 'superior' to them, and in many ways I envy them their beliefs and peace of mind - I wish that I too could share their spirituality.

Yes, my powers of reasoning and my 'common sense' have convinced me that there is no God out there for me, but I am not trying to say that because of this I am in some way superior - different maybe, but not superior.

You really seem to be bothered by my point of view - is it because that deep down you question your own belief?

I detest all organised religions with a purple passion, as they are all full of lies, hypocrisy, avarice, hate, intolerance, power seekers and control freaks; but a personal belief in a 'Higher Power'? Why not? Good luck to them and respect to them. :jap:

Firstly, I don't know why you think I'm really bothered by your point of view,I'm not at all, I just disagree. Do I question my own belief? Sure, who doesn't.

Do some sufferers of alcoholism grasp at spirituality as a way to save them? Of course they do,is there another way?