Enough Is Enough

[maccaroni man]

We Farang are really not wanted at all in Thailand, Thai's in the main are really only after our money.

Bill, has it really taken 5 years to realise this ?

I am not being critical but understanding our 'position' in Thai society is one of the fundamentals.

As far as 'contributing to society' is concerned, I would be interested to know what you would like to achieve in this regard.

I fear you may have set yourself too difficult a task.

Jezz,

No I found out the money bit early in the peace, I just thought that Thai's might have had a little bit of sense and realized that I was not about money. I did not mind at all to help out around the village in all aspects of village life.

I wished to contribute to the education of the villager's along with helping out at the local hospital, but alas I was always declined even though I had the correct qualifications for the job. I was quick to understand when I arrived that I could help these kids into a better life. But no no, I could not do that once again for the sake of "face"

It was all about "face". The Thai people did not like to have a Farang instructing them on better way's of doing things. Jealousy came into the picture on every turn in all events and the Thai people would not hesitate to dob you into the authorities all for the sake of "face".

Bill

Other side of the coin.............would a doctor or teacher in Europe 50 years ago allowed someone from the other side of the world into their school/hospitol to work???as that person obviously thinks they can offer something better than is already in practice............maybe there lies the problem, it seems to me you have the impression that you are superior than the locals........there are plenty of voluntary organisations or teaching posistions that you could apply for...'being corrected qualified' as you said you are....... why not try that,

it is not 50 yrs ago and it is quite common for thais to be aware that people educated in the west (including Thais) have soemthing more to offer.

[zzaa09]

it is not 50 yrs ago and it is quite common for thais to be aware that people educated in the west (including Thais) have soemthing more to offer.

To offer extended differing knowledge is nice, but one will excel more when mixing humility with such offerings.

Edited May 11, 2011 by zzaa09

[councilor]

It's a Thai forum !!

Would '(some/x% of) women in Thailand are dishonest' appease you ?

Yes, it is a Thai forum. What a perfect conduit for those that find a critique towards every aspect of Thai society and their interaction thereof. More often than not, the punditry tends to be exaggerated to the extreme while the angst of inferior judgement takes it's toll unjustified. Observe any such Thai/Asian expat forum.....the themes are harmonious.

what

[cardholder]

it is not 50 yrs ago and it is quite common for thais to be aware that people educated in the west (including Thais) have soemthing more to offer.

To offer extended differing knowledge is nice, but one will excel more when mixing humility with such offerings.

Jeff, have you ever thought of posting in SIMPLE English. You are clearly intelligent but many of your posts are unintelligible.

I am sure your valuable contributions would be better appreciated if readers could understand them more easily.

[grimleybob]

It's a Thai forum !!

Would '(some/x% of) women in Thailand are dishonest' appease you ?

Yes, it is a Thai forum. What a perfect conduit for those that find a critique towards every aspect of Thai society and their interaction thereof. More often than not, the punditry tends to be exaggerated to the extreme while the angst of inferior judgement takes it's toll unjustified. Observe any such Thai/Asian expat forum.....the themes are harmonious.

what

This must be the guy that writes the smallprint in insurance contracts I can't understand them either

[fatfather]

Interesting topic. After reading all the posts there would be a lot to say but most things are said on the point already. It is a very individual theme.

Living in an Isaan village among Thais isn't everybody's thing, that's for sure. No need to improove things there, but it is also not neccessary to go the Thai way as a falang. I do the things how I like to do it. I learned a lot from Thais and they also like some things the way I do. I could give lots of examples, small things maybe.

About the OP try to teach kids I cannot understand what you tried to do. Just giving lessons? My house is full of kids every day and they come because they like it, but..... I'm a falang and I have rules. I leave it up to the kids to come or not and once in my place they have to respect my rules, that's all. They learn without knowing that they learn, slowly, constantly.

People who change place to find a better life mostly forget that they always take themself with.........

fatfather

[SanukJoeII]

Interesting topic. After reading all the posts there would be a lot to say but most things are said on the point already. It is a very individual theme.

Living in an Isaan village among Thais isn't everybody's thing, that's for sure. No need to improove things there, but it is also not neccessary to go the Thai way as a falang. I do the things how I like to do it. I learned a lot from Thais and they also like some things the way I do. I could give lots of examples, small things maybe.

About the OP try to teach kids I cannot understand what you tried to do. Just giving lessons? My house is full of kids every day and they come because they like it, but..... I'm a falang and I have rules. I leave it up to the kids to come or not and once in my place they have to respect my rules, that's all. They learn without knowing that they learn, slowly, constantly.

People who change place to find a better life mostly forget that they always take themself with.........

fatfather

Agree with your post, specially the "visual, automatic" teaching. I do the same and it works. Words like instructing and teaching should be banned out of your brain and replaced by "learning by doing", showing only how YOU would do certain things, without TELLING them how they should do it. I train two volleyball teams of school, girls 10-12 and girls 13-16. I show them how I would play volleyball but leave it up to them to follow that. Guess what? They want to play the same way! After a match I sometimes invite them to my house and e.g. make them french fries. Not only do they want to know how to cook, they learn about hygiene (wash hands before and after meals) and the use of paper tissue plus the use of waste bins. It's big fun, they plus the friends of my daughter are the best students in English, their volleyball technique has improved and they are big fun to be with.

So I teach, instruct, yes, but they don't realise it, it is automatic teaching by doing.

This is only a small example, but it's part of the larger integration, as that is what is needed. It doesn't mean to abandon your background, use what you can but respect what people have been doing since ages. Villagers don't talk about me as a farang, they use my name Joe as I'm part of them, always invited at official gatherings, never a problem.

Two things I learned here:

1. Saying no with a smile or a joke. It's their way (sanuk) and it works wonderfully, nobody gets upset or angry and you just said "no".

2. A little smile on my face when I leave the house is the tool to have many (most) people smile and greet in a friendly way. It costs nothing but achieves a lot.

Joe

[SanukJoeII]

I'm puzzled by the OP, I read his posts twice, made notes and this is what I extracted:

He came to rural Isan 5 years ago. What was his motivation? He doesn't mention a relationship so he came alone I guess. Again, why and why to that little Isan village? He states he loves the sea, beaches, surfing, sailing, whatever.. Then why go to live in a rural Isan village, far from the sea?

He wanted to be a part of the development of the region as a whole! Jeez, important guy right? At least to his own opinion.

He wanted to educate villagers and work in the local hospital. Why not get a job, work permit and work? Easy to follow the rules. But probably his attitude made nobody interested to let him work for them, it's not the visa rules, not the government, they didn't want him!

Now what puzzles me most: what kind of village did he land in? I quote:

The village consists of 2 families with 12 people each

That makes it a very tiny village of 24 people, or do I miss something?

Another quote:

Kids get drunk at 7 or 8 (age not the time ) and at the same age have sex. When 13/14 they will be influenced by drugs and alcohol on a daily basis.

I live in a rural Isan village, about 300 people, no kids get drunk at the age of 7/8, not even at the age of 13/14. No kids have sex at the age of 7/8, but I admit from 12 up some of them have, resulting sometimes in early motherhood (15) which is not typical Thai as the USA has the highest teenage pregnancies and in Europe the UK is leader in that respect.

So what village does the OP live in? 24 people from which all? kids are 7/8, get drunk, have sex, and those who manage to get 13/14 use drugs and alcohol daily?

Do I have to believe that? It looks to me as troll BS, I cannot imagine any village in Isan having that kind of population. Maybe I'm wrong, then I apologize, but odd it is.

Now he is sick and tired of people not wanting him to do his missionary work (without permit) so he wants to leave.

Good idea, for sure, hope he ends up in a large city so that no other villagers will have to deal with this farang who thinks he is the representative of all farang living in rural Isan. Well Mr. OP, you are not!

Good luck!

Joe

[sarahsbloke]

the USA has the highest teenage pregnancies and in Europe the UK is leader in that respect.

I suspect the UK leads because it gives them a free house!

[downtown]

^ daily mail reader?

[Lickey]

Perhaps the OP and some others should listen to this fine song, and reflect on there previous lives?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7cgIZE59JE

enjoy, its funny..

[fatfather]

.... Villagers don't talk about me as a farang, they use my name Joe as I'm part of them, always invited at official gatherings, never a problem

...they call me "Poh Uan"...... "fat father"

fatfather

[IsaanAussie]

Enough is enough, wow how many times have I thought that out of frustration or refusal to accept local traditional lifestyle? The issues are always my own, it is me that fails to adjust to the basic cultural differences.

This topic is a fascinating read for me. I am slowly learning that it is indeed "all my fault". That I waste so much time planning for the future when right now is the only timescale needed. I waste more time trying to do things as well as I can and consider maintenance issues in designing something I make. Even more time wasted searching for the "right" tool for the job and reading specifications on equipment. Spanner one minute, lever the next, followed by hammer and finally breakage. Whats so hard to figure out? Why do I continue to fume as my tools disintegrate around me?

But recognising all my obvious faults, why do I always want everything cleaned and put back where they are kept? Why dont I just start by emptying all nails, nuts, bolts and washers into one bucket, drills and tools dumped on top? It is after all, all then in one spot! Surely, the range of pulleys on the pedestal drill are really only there for when the first one wears out, all drills run at the same speed, flat out! Dont they?

Yeah, really just kidding folks. There are many things that wind me up here due to a lack of education and due care (by my standards). I dont think the people around me are inferior beings, but most do things differently to me and I am after all only human. My biggest failing is not keeping my opinions to myself.

[SanukJoeII]

Enough is enough, wow how many times have I thought that out of frustration or refusal to accept local traditional lifestyle? The issues are always my own, it is me that fails to adjust to the basic cultural differences.

This topic is a fascinating read for me. I am slowly learning that it is indeed "all my fault". That I waste so much time planning for the future when right now is the only timescale needed. I waste more time trying to do things as well as I can and consider maintenance issues in designing something I make. Even more time wasted searching for the "right" tool for the job and reading specifications on equipment. Spanner one minute, lever the next, followed by hammer and finally breakage. Whats so hard to figure out? Why do I continue to fume as my tools disintegrate around me?

But recognising all my obvious faults, why do I always want everything cleaned and put back where they are kept? Why dont I just start by emptying all nails, nuts, bolts and washers into one bucket, drills and tools dumped on top? It is after all, all then in one spot! Surely, the range of pulleys on the pedestal drill are really only there for when the first one wears out, all drills run at the same speed, flat out! Dont they?

Yeah, really just kidding folks. There are many things that wind me up here due to a lack of education and due care (by my standards). I dont think the people around me are inferior beings, but most do things differently to me and I am after all only human. My biggest failing is not keeping my opinions to myself.

Good read IsaanAussie!

Your last sentence shows you're a wise man :jap:

Joe

[surayu]

My biggest failing is not keeping my opinions to myself.

Trying to help others in understanding what being "civilized" is, rather than being a shaved clone of a monkey, whatever nationality (as we have some fine examples posting here as well) it's not a failing at all, there are people still truly appreciating "proper manners" in whatever fields are they applied, but the armies of the "giving for granted" all the rights they have is expanding, they also seem unable to understand how this is going to work against their own interests as well in the long run.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, hopefully someone will be able to learn something from it and don't give up.

[surayu]

SanukJoeII & FatFather, i like people willing to help others with whatever actions they can, you don't seem to share the same point of views of Squigy but he's simply trying to do what you are doing already, the diffence it's that he's aware that he cannot do that in a legal manner, so he's very clearly telling that, while you think that you have found a way to do that without being prosecuted, that will be ok untill one of the kids, their parents or whoever else is not going to tell something about the "farang" doing this or doing that, then (maybe) you will start to better understand what the OP is all about and to see he's 1000% right.

Good luck all

[SanukJoeII]

SanukJoeII & FatFather, i like people willing to help others with whatever actions they can, you don't seem to share the same point of views of Squigy but he's simply trying to do what you are doing already, the diffence it's that he's aware that he cannot do that in a legal manner, so he's very clearly telling that, while you think that you have found a way to do that without being prosecuted, that will be ok untill one of the kids, their parents or whoever else is not going to tell something about the "farang" doing this or doing that, then (maybe) you will start to better understand what the OP is all about and to see he's 1000% right.

Good luck all

Prosecuted for baking french fries? :cheesy:

Advise you to read my posts again, I'm retired. not working (legally or illegally), have a year to year retirement visa and live conform the rules of the host country I live in.

Showing people how YOU would do it without telling them they should do it that way too is the difference with the OP, who thinks he is the salvation army for Isan.

His attitude of talking high to low is wrong, at least in Isan. Why are so many people happily accepted by and integrated into Isan village societies? When you talk to them they have no bla bla attitude but respect for people and their cultural history. Things they do differently are not necessarily wrong and they feel well with it, let them!

Helping out is something else, I think nearly all expats in Isan villages help out from time to time, it's part of the integration, and on their turn people help you out if necessary. That's village life, rural Isan village life, I love it!

Joe

[surayu]

Prosecuted for baking french fries? :cheesy:

Joe

Well, you see dear Joe, you did write about training 2 teams of kids to play a sport, it doesn't matter the way you do it, not much you can really do if they come after you for it, this doen't mean i like it or i am against you, not at all, me, and i believe the OP as well are just against this wrong system that put you and all those just willing to do good, in default.

Did you read that recent tread about foreigners being locked up in Chiang Mai just because they where showing up their hobby for free? they where thinking the same, as for us it's just normal to use "logic".

Believe me, even just frying french fries on front of your kids coming regularly to see that, can be construed as "work".

We have to focus on this, some harsh words against that is not surprising.

[SanukJoeII]

Prosecuted for baking french fries? :cheesy:

Joe

Well, you see dear Joe, you did write about training 2 teams of kids to play a sport, it doesn't matter the way you do it, not much you can really do if they come after you for it, this doen't mean i like it or i am against you, not at all, me, and i believe the OP as well are just against this wrong system that put you and all those just willing to do good, in default.

Did you read that recent tread about foreigners being locked up in Chiang Mai just because they where showing up their hobby for free? they where thinking the same, as for us it's just normal to use "logic".

Believe me, even just frying french fries on front of your kids coming regularly to see that, can be construed as "work".

We have to focus on this, some harsh words against that is not surprising.

It would be useful if you would read the list of activities that are not allowed to be done by "aliens" as they call it, baking french fries in my home is not part of it ok?

Playing volleyball after school time is not part of it as it does not take away work or a job of a Thai national, and that is the main target of the rules. The school here has no sports teacher so parents take over that part and train/coach football, foot volley and other teams, all out of the normal school hours, in spare time.

The most annoying part and the reason why Immigration is hunting people applying for multiple tourist visas, is that thousands of native English speakers work illegally as teachers. That is wrong, wrong, wrong. They spoil not only the chance for non working tourists to stay longer time or come back regularly, they also spoil the view Thai people have of farang. These farang teachers take away jobs from Thai teachers, I know the quality of educating English language is far too low but it is not our concern, it's a Thai issue and we cannot come with the attitude of OP and say let me do it, much better. You know many of those so called farang teachers have NOT the right papers to do so? So they work illegally and they are not qualified for the work they do. That is a big problem in Thailand, caused by farang.

Do you really wonder why a guy like OP is rejected to work in a hospital or school? It seems he does not have a work permit, not a B-visa so he didn't do his homework. He should have realised that in order to work you need to fulfill requirements, that is not typical Thai, in my country Netherlands tourists or refugees are not allowed to work, unless they have a work permit, so what is the problem? Nothing new, but OP didn't get a job offered, didn't get a work permit and didn't get a B-visa. So he cannot work, neither can I but the difference is I don't want to work, I'm retired and enjoy my stay in this wonderful part of the country. Each to his taste.

Joe

[surayu]

"You are not in Kansas anymore Dorothy"

Sorry, i think i did what i could by sharing my advices and my understanding, in my country things works differently as well, however, this is not the EU and i am doing my best to point out at the things i was failing to understand too in the beginning.

I hope nobody is going to find out what the truth is in the harsh way, the thai prison system is another topic that deserve a whole new tread on his own, because of the dishumane ways, both thai and foreigners are treated....

[zzaa09]

[sic]..... this farang who thinks he is the representative of all farang living in rural Isan. Well Mr. OP, you are not!

Joe

He certainly belongs to the least represented, Joe. I believe the good Isaan dwellers would be able to recognize that this fellow is in the minority as a general reflection of Farang character and make-up. Though, he does fit the all-around stereotype of quite a growing population of misguided and disconnected types that just don't fit in - regardless of their locale. Though, this young gent might be an example of extreme amongst Farang, this general mindset and character is common to one degree or another.

[zzaa09]

Enough is enough, wow how many times have I thought that out of frustration or refusal to accept local traditional lifestyle? The issues are always my own, it is me that fails to adjust to the basic cultural differences.

This topic is a fascinating read for me. I am slowly learning that it is indeed "all my fault". That I waste so much time planning for the future when right now is the only timescale needed. I waste more time trying to do things as well as I can and consider maintenance issues in designing something I make. Even more time wasted searching for the "right" tool for the job and reading specifications on equipment. Spanner one minute, lever the next, followed by hammer and finally breakage. Whats so hard to figure out? Why do I continue to fume as my tools disintegrate around me?

But recognising all my obvious faults, why do I always want everything cleaned and put back where they are kept? Why dont I just start by emptying all nails, nuts, bolts and washers into one bucket, drills and tools dumped on top? It is after all, all then in one spot! Surely, the range of pulleys on the pedestal drill are really only there for when the first one wears out, all drills run at the same speed, flat out! Dont they?

Yeah, really just kidding folks. There are many things that wind me up here due to a lack of education and due care (by my standards). I dont think the people around me are inferior beings, but most do things differently to me and I am after all only human. My biggest failing is not keeping my opinions to myself.

.....another satisfied customer.

[zzaa09]

My biggest failing is not keeping my opinions to myself.

Trying to help others in understanding what being "civilized" is, rather than being a shaved clone of a monkey, whatever nationality (as we have some fine examples posting here as well) it's not a failing at all, there are people still truly appreciating "proper manners" in whatever fields are they applied, but the armies of the "giving for granted" all the rights they have is expanding, they also seem unable to understand how this is going to work against their own interests as well in the long run.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, hopefully someone will be able to learn something from it and don't give up.

Or, perhaps no one is learning and never will. An obvious conclusion from simple observations, yes?

[surayu]

Or, perhaps no one is learning and never will. An obvious conclusion from simple observations, yes?

Honestly, my view of things tend to be optimistic.

Looking at history, we can see how the populations become increasingly more tolerant and concerned about others wellbeing, we got some "fluctuations stages" in which we got temporarely backward, but in the whole we are getting better.

My father's generation growed up in a much harder situation of the one we are currently living on, and that of my grandfather, better to not to even think about it, we are now benefitting of all the goods that came out of their sacrifices and struggles, the minimun we can do, if not trying to improve things, at least let's try to keep the rights they created for us.

[SanukJoeII]

"You are not in Kansas anymore Dorothy"

in my country things works differently as well,

You see you didn't read my post very well! I did not mention things are different in my (EU) country, I pointed out that things are exactly the same, like working as a foreigner is prohibited, in my country and in LOS, so same same to quote your avatar text.

One can work as a volunteer, through an approved organisation, but even then one needs (gets) a work permit, visa and a time period to stay and/or leave.

I hope nobody is going to find out what the truth is in the harsh way, the thai prison system is another topic that deserve a whole new tread on his own, because of the dishumane ways, both thai and foreigners are treated....

Right, another topic and not applicable here, on top I see no illegal activities here so no need to fear the prison. Needless to say that this thread changes into a complaint against treatment in Thai prisons, kind of Human Rights or Amnesty International stuff, totally unwanted and off topic!

Joe