Non-Compliance To Condominium Act

[cigar7]

It seems the Manager, of a condominium in Pattaya, is not performing all of his duties and responsibilities as defined in Thailand Condominium Act 2008 (Act). Specifically, section 36 specifies the Manager has a duty to have a monthly Receipt and Expenditure Account prepared and posted on the bulletin board to inform joint owners within 15 days from the end of the month and such relevant announcement shall be posted at least for consecutive period of fifteen days. A verbal polite request to the Manager has had no results.

Next, the Condominium Corporation has not complied with section 38/2 of the Act, which states that the annual report, showing operational results and the proposed balance sheet shall be forwarded to joint owners at least 7 days prior the meeting. No copies of these documents were provided to the joint owners ever, either before or after the Annual General Meeting.

Next, contrary to section 38/3 of the Act, upon verbal request, the Manager has not been able to provide the annual report and balance sheet for the last 10 years to the joint owners.

Apparently there are many unhappy joint owners in this condominium who feel the condo fees, which are collected by the manager, are not being used for the benefit of joint owners and common property. If the feeling is true, then that could explain non-compliance to the Act in the aforementioned matters.

One course of action is to form a committee of unhappy joint owners. Get enough joint owners involved to call an Extraordinary General Meeting (EGM), which I believe is 20%. Then make sure that at least 25% of joint members attend the EGM, or obtain proxies equating to 25% of joint owner votes. The resolution at the meeting would be to remove the current Manager and appoint a new Manager.

What is the best strategy to get the manager to comply with Act, especially in these areas of concern identified above?

[nycboy57]

I just want to thank you for posting this topic and question. I have written about problems in my Condo in Bkk, and have suffered with most replies, due to my over sensitivity with the way I believe being respectful to those that post here was not handled correctly.

I tread lightly in my posts these days. I will be watching to see if anyone has a helpful response and I wish you good luck in your situation.

[fvw53]

We had a similar situation in our condo until 3 years ago.

After more than 10 years of too relax supervision of the work done by the Condo manager, some frustrated co-owners called a EGM and elected a new "Management Board" (i.e. Board of Committee responsible for control of the management of the Condominium Juristic Person).

The new chairperson of this Board of Committee called for the "advise" of a professional management company during one month.

Then with two professionals looking daily on his fingers, the Condo manager "fled the scene".

Consequently the professional management company became the Condo manager on a long term basis.

It was quickly discovered that several million Baht went missing and that the sinking fund was also emptied.

A substantial number of co-owners had paid during years their monthly fees (based on square meters of their apartment) in cash to the Condo manager...without asking for a receipt...(true or not true?)

Some units were empty since many years and some of their owners could not be found any more and the arrears in their monthly payments were sometimes several hundred thousand Baht....

There was no more money to do essential repair work or painting of the common area..

Our co-owners were lucky to have elected a very dedicated new chairperson of the Board of Committee who pushed the professional management company all the time for action to collect arrears in the payments and eventually to go to the police station.

Also important is that the professional management company has - at its head office - a good and experienced lawyer.

It will take a few years more to correct the financial damage caused by the previous Condo manager.

[powderpuff]

Well that was enlightening.

nycboy. In a topic concerning a serious subject requesting serious help & advice I don't know why you have to suffer trolls & flames. Just hit the "report" button & let the mods handle it. They will believe me.

[PattayaParent]

Go to the Land Office and report the situation and see if they can provide any advice.

[cigar7]

Ok, I will go to the land office in Pattaya. The place is under construction and it is a very busy place. Is there a particular person or officer that I should contact?

[Delight]

Go to the Land Office and report the situation and see if they can provide any advice.

With all due respect to Pattaya Parent I would recommend that you do not visit the Land Office.

Q1 Where is the Juristic person in all this?

Q2 How can you be certain that the Land Office is not complicit in the illegal activity that has taken place?

What you need to consider is who will replace the condo manager

I chair the committee at a Condo in Pattaya.

The co -owners wanted to change the Manager.

The first thing that we did was to form a relationship with the prospective management company

We started in the April and change managers end Aug. This company was truly invaluable -we all considered that we could not have managed the process without them.

They did the work effectively for free.

They organized the 1st Meeting -20% by voting allocation Co -owners meeting (bodies only)

Then the EGM -25% by voting allocation(Bodies and proxies)

The output of both meeting has to be in Thai.

I can strongly recommend the Company that we now use.

(I think that they will advise you on a plan to retrieve stolen funds)

You will need to e-mail me via Thai Visa if you wish more details(this process is confidential and anonymous)

[cigar7]

Go to the Land Office and report the situation and see if they can provide any advice.

With all due respect to Pattaya Parent I would recommend that you do not visit the Land Office.

Q1 Where is the Juristic person in all this?

Q2 How can you be certain that the Land Office is not complicit in the illegal activity that has taken place?

What you need to consider is who will replace the condo manager

I chair the committee at a Condo in Pattaya.

The co -owners wanted to change the Manager.

The first thing that we did was to form a relationship with the prospective management company

We started in the April and change managers end Aug. This company was truly invaluable -we all considered that we could not have managed the process without them.

They did the work effectively for free.

They organized the 1st Meeting -20% by voting allocation Co -owners meeting (bodies only)

Then the EGM -25% by voting allocation(Bodies and proxies)

The output of both meeting has to be in Thai.

I can strongly recommend the Company that we now use.

(I think that they will advise you on a plan to retrieve stolen funds)

You will need to e-mail me via Thai Visa if you wish more details(this process is confidential and anonymous)

A1. I have not contacted the Juristic Person. See P1 below, I suspect they are complicit in the current situation.

A2. The Land Office may be complicit in this matter.

P1. At this same condo, I am aware that a group of unhappy joint owners formed a group, shortly after the new condo law went into effect, about 2 years ago. They were sick and tired of paying condo fees and never seeing any repairs. The group hired a lawyer to get compliance, related to the matters I originally posted. The lawyer sucked all of the money out of the group and there were no results.

This is not a luxurious expensive condo and the people living here are mostly retired foreigners or are Thais at the low end of the food chain.

I am looking for a creative productive way to get compliance without trying to fund resolution of this issue through donations from unhappy poor joint owners.

We really need help. I like Delight's suggestion.

[fvw53]

I wrote about our experience so that you could draw the conclusions yourself.

In many cases the Chairperson of the Juristic Person is part of the problem because of personal interest or complacency.

The new Condo Act of 2008 makes that the Chairperson is no longer ahonorary title....because he or she can be brought to court in case ofnegligence : in our case it was not only to handle money in a honestway but also to check that elevators undergo maintenance or that thefire alarm system (spinklers) is still in operation.

You should not only like what "Delight" suggest ....it is the ONLYsolution...and if you have assistance of a competent management companyit still will be difficult enough to correct the situation.

[briley]

I very much doubt that the Land Office will do anything.

It is up to the owners to take action if things are not being done correctly. Get 20% of the owners together and call for a General Meeting. Replace the Juristic Person and clean up the mess with a new committee to support the Juristic person.

It is not difficult to do if you have the support of the majority of owners. The law is reasonably clear in this area.

[ripley]

To arrange an EGM one must send a request to the JPM (being sure to get a receipt). 'Are you legally required to prove that 20% of owners want the meeting? How must you prove it? Must you supply names & ratios, etc in the letter? Anybody know the correct form?

Another thing: Does anyone have direct knowledge of tricksy dealings in the regional Land Offices?

[PattayaParent]

I very much doubt that the Land Office will do anything.

It is up to the owners to take action if things are not being done correctly. Get 20% of the owners together and call for a General Meeting. Replace the Juristic Person and clean up the mess with a new committee to support the Juristic person.

It is not difficult to do if you have the support of the majority of owners. The law is reasonably clear in this area.

The condo rules and regulations are registered at he land office, so they should ensure compliance, and also with the condo act requirements.

[thaiwanderer]

I very much doubt that the Land Office will do anything.

It is up to the owners to take action if things are not being done correctly. Get 20% of the owners together and call for a General Meeting. Replace the Juristic Person and clean up the mess with a new committee to support the Juristic person.

It is not difficult to do if you have the support of the majority of owners. The law is reasonably clear in this area.

The condo rules and regulations are registered at he land office, so they should ensure compliance, and also with the condo act requirements.

Why would or should the land office ensure compliance here?

As to cleaning up the mess, given the dispute foreigners should be careful about involving themselves in anything that could be construed as work - even with an existent work permit which of course will not cover them.

[PattayaParent]

I very much doubt that the Land Office will do anything.

It is up to the owners to take action if things are not being done correctly. Get 20% of the owners together and call for a General Meeting. Replace the Juristic Person and clean up the mess with a new committee to support the Juristic person.

It is not difficult to do if you have the support of the majority of owners. The law is reasonably clear in this area.

The condo rules and regulations are registered at he land office, so they should ensure compliance, and also with the condo act requirements.

Why would or should the land office ensure compliance here?

As to cleaning up the mess, given the dispute foreigners should be careful about involving themselves in anything that could be construed as work - even with an existent work permit which of course will not cover them.

Because that's where the condo rules and regulations are registered.

[cigar7]

Under section 42/2 of the Act

(3) Joint owners of not less than twenty percent (20%) of the total votes of the joint owners signing to make a letter requesting the Meeting to be convened for submission to the Board. In this case, the Board shall arrange to have the Meeting convened within fifteen days from the date of receiving such request. Should the Board fail to have the Meeting convened within such prescribed time, The joint owners of the aforementioned number shall have the right to arrange to have such Extraordinary General Meeting convened by themselves by appointing a person from them to be their representative in issuing letters of summoning to attend the Meeting.

So it seems the joint owners need to sign the demand letter for an EGM, based on the Act. Has anyone actually had to call an EGM to replace condo management?

I have pursued Delight’s recommendation and contacted a professional condo management company.

I’ll post updates here if anyone is interested in our progress, or lack thereof?

[Delight]

To arrange an EGM one must send a request to the JPM (being sure to get a receipt). 'Are you legally required to prove that 20% of owners want the meeting? How must you prove it? Must you supply names & ratios, etc in the letter? Anybody know the correct form?

Another thing: Does anyone have direct knowledge of tricksy dealings in the regional Land Offices?

Having been thru the process of changing a Manager I offer some advise based on my experience.

Q1 Who are your enemies ?

A1 Those who claim to be your friends

I was convinced that 40%(by Vote) would show at the EGM. This confidence was based on one on one conversation with every co -owner who claimed to give support.

On the day the meeting had 26.7 % (bodies and proxies)

Sensing a problem I called each of the absent 'Friends'. To a man every mobile was switched off.

Q2 Aside from the professional meeting facilitators -What is your best asset?

A2 Apathetic Co -owners - Those who wish change are organised. Those who desire 'No Change' are not.

I am convinced that if 100% of the co -owners had attended- then the change would not have occurred.

I attach 3 JPEG s giving a simplified version of:

1) Agenda for Co -owners meeting

2) Minutes from Co -Owners meeting

3) Agenda for EGM( Note: This must be sent by registered post to every co -owner at his/her condo address. It does not matter if it is ignored. What does matter is that the organizers have a record of sending the Agenda . Land office will look for this.

The land office will scrutinize every detaill of all the submitted documentation. They hope to find some slight imperfection in the process. If they find this then you will be made an offer. Run the entire meeting again or 'Tea Money'

We received a EGM Agenda by return from the then current Juritistic person. I took this to the land office for advice. The officer wrote something on this agenda(from my position it was 500 Baht well spent)

At the EGM I presented the chairman with this document. He in turn showed it to the Juristic person. The meeting was immediately closed.

15 days later the co -owners (with assistance from external professional facilitators) organized their own EGM

You must have external professional facilitators. I am now almost an 'expert in the field' ie at the end of the process.This is of little use. You need this knowledge at the beginning of the process.For certain I did not have it.

[thaiwanderer]

I very much doubt that the Land Office will do anything.

It is up to the owners to take action if things are not being done correctly. Get 20% of the owners together and call for a General Meeting. Replace the Juristic Person and clean up the mess with a new committee to support the Juristic person.

It is not difficult to do if you have the support of the majority of owners. The law is reasonably clear in this area.

The condo rules and regulations are registered at he land office, so they should ensure compliance, and also with the condo act requirements.

Why would or should the land office ensure compliance here?

As to cleaning up the mess, given the dispute foreigners should be careful about involving themselves in anything that could be construed as work - even with an existent work permit which of course will not cover them.

Because that's where the condo rules and regulations are registered.

So?

[PattayaParent]

The condo rules and regulations are registered at he land office, so they should ensure compliance, and also with the condo act requirements.

Why would or should the land office ensure compliance here?

As to cleaning up the mess, given the dispute foreigners should be careful about involving themselves in anything that could be construed as work - even with an existent work permit which of course will not cover them.

Because that's where the condo rules and regulations are registered.

So?

So they would be the body to visit to report non compliance with the registered rules and regulations.

[thaiwanderer]

So they would be the body to visit to report non compliance with the registered rules and regulations.

You are confusing the significance of registration with ensuring compliance here.

[briley]

I agree that land registry will do nothing about infringements of regulations etc as it is not their job, it is the job of the courts.

But who brings the case?

If the owners bring a case against the management - who is the representative of the owners - are the owners bringing a case against themselves?

I am aware of one case where an owner wanted to take action against the committee for refusing his application. But since he was part of those that elected the committee surely his only real option is to get rid of the committee otherwise he is suing himself?

In other words if the condo is not managed properly it is the owners who should/must take action. Vote the people out who are mismanaging the condo and install a new, reliable committee or juristic person.

[Delight]

I

In other words if the condo is not managed properly it is the owners who should/must take action. Vote the people out who are mismanaging the condo and install a new, reliable committee or juristic person.

As far as I can see the Condo Act does not detail how to replace a committee.Only that members retain their position for max. 2 years.

One potential method is to have it as topic on a General meeting agenda.

Or if not on the agenda a resolution generated from the floor at the actual meeting itself.

In practice this would mean replacing the committee or certain of the committee members during the meeting.

Then ,how can the co -owners be sure that it is not a 'Frying Pan into the Fire' scenario.

I would be pleased to here from anyone with actual practical experience of this 'untidy' situation.

[nycboy57]

I would be pleased to here from anyone with actual practical experience of this 'untidy' situation.

Thank you for this topic and quote. Since my experience with asking questions concerning this topic in the past, has gotten me allot of advice like, Why would you buy anything in Thailand? or I am so happy that I didn't buy, or only crazy person would buy. All I did was ask a question concerning Juristic and or hoping to get some practical experience actual experience from someone that might have had a similar situation in buying a Condo in Thailand, which I did buy and have suffered with the location and the developer building a facade over a shell and not cement or ceil up the rooms, which I found out through absentee co owners who rent by the day, which i asked if it was legal and people with no knowledge or experience again walloped me with disrespectful responses similar to what I have written, about my stupidity of buying, yet, most of them, never have bought or maybe cannot afford to buy , but to make themselves feel better about themselves they attack and belittle some of us who have invested in a home here, and retired here and want to live out our lives here in peace and affordable housing.

So I hope you and others who risk putting out to the world problems such as we have discussed here, and not get our heads bitten off or abused by people that do not have practical experience with the topics involved.

I wish that when someone answers a question of concern, the person answering actually writes their experience and not just give an off the cuff answer like go to the land office or this or that, when they have not been to the lands office, or never bought anything here, or do not own anything here, but just want to sound like they know something. If you don't know from actual experience and you want to look and feel good about yourself, give the guy who is hurting a break and don't respond unless you really know.

If anyone sees a response that the person sends without actually saying their experience in the matter, I would take it with a grain of salt as they say.

Sorry to offend those that write here all the time without any experience in the matter and belittle those that ask questions but come on, some of these problems are serious and need to have compassionate and informed answers.

[briley]

Delight - If a Condo is being run in a way that is definitely wrong, and not just in a way that you do not like, then you have only one option. Change the Juristic Manager.

The committee has very little powers. They must meet twice a year, they must keep a check on the Juristic manager and (this is their big power) they must appoint a Juristic Manager if the existing one can not carry out their duties.

If you have a genuine problem with the existing Juristic person and the majority of owners agree with you then you can change the Juristic person.

Firstly find someone who is willing to do the job who you trust and the rest of the owners will trust.

Secondly get 20% of the owners to request a General meeting. If it is not called then you can call the meeting yourself.

At the general meeting sack the old Juristic person and appoint the new one.

At the same time you might like to vote onto the committee new members if there are less than 9 existing members of the committee. As someone else said there is no provision for getting rid of committee members.

Then you go to land registry and register the new Juristic person.

But you must do everything correctly. You must have copies of ID cards of all owners who attend and vote and their proxy (if applicable). These must have original signatures, not faxed or e-mailed signatures. You must keep to the time limits given in the law. Ask Land registry what is needed before you call the meeting - in Chiang Mai they are very helpful with their advice.

But to do all this you must have massive support of all owners, especially the Thai owners who make up at least 51% of the owners. Personally I would be looking at 75% of owners supporting you - at least half of them being Thai - and have Thai people fronting the action. It is very useful to get the Condo's bank accounts frozen if there is any possibility of fraud by the old Juristic person.

I've been there, done that, and it took 3-4 months to sort it out. Then we had the difficult bit, managing the building and putting it back on track .................................

[ripley]

Section 49 A resolution relating to the following matters shall receive the votes of not less than one fourth of the joint owners’ total votes:

o(1) Appointment<b> or removal of the Manager<br style=""> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

</b> Chapter 5 of the Thai Condominium Act contains almost everything in law regarding Condo administration and the rights of owners. The only other law governing the way a condo functions is that condo's own regulations. I think it makes sense that, where neither the condo act nor regulations make no mention of an issue/situation, a condo - owners and administration - is free to act as it sees fit within legal limits. Whereas there is no mention in the Act of dumping a committee for poor performance, there is no prohibition against doing so. There is also no mention in the Act of a percentage requirement of owners needed to accomplish replacement of a committee.

I would guess that failure to comply with the Act and Thai Law is adequate reason to expel any member. I would guess further that, since no percentage requirement is mentioned regarding replacement of committee members, the 20% who call for an EGM and attend it is enough to do the deed.

Yes, a lot of "guess" work, but where there is no specific law "I guess" you have to do your own thinking and make your own moves.

I agree with nycboy57 that posters from the "Oh, Aren't We Witty Brigade" too often prevent a serious and interesting Topic from getting off the ground. A shame when that happens. However I think the contributions to this Topic have been first rate.<b><br style=""> </b>

[Delight]

Will reply later

Edited May 19, 2011 by Delight

[ripley]

RE: Frying pans & Fires - If owners can get 20% of their population to demand an EGM (or 25% attendance to get rid of their Manager & JPM), they have a pretty good shot at assembling a decent slate of candidates. A good management company (assuming there is such a thing) should go far in smoothing the transition.

[bouph12]

So they would be the body to visit to report non compliance with the registered rules and regulations.

You are confusing the significance of registration with ensuring compliance here.

I agree that land registry will do nothing about infringements of regulations etc as it is not their job, it is the job of the courts.

But who brings the case?

If the owners bring a case against the management - who is the representative of the owners - are the owners bringing a case against themselves?

I am aware of one case where an owner wanted to take action against the committee for refusing his application. But since he was part of those that elected the committee surely his only real option is to get rid of the committee otherwise he is suing himself?

In other words if the condo is not managed properly it is the owners who should/must take action. Vote the people out who are mismanaging the condo and install a new, reliable committee or juristic person.

"Section 60/1 In performing in accordance with this Act, the competent official shall have the power as follows:

1) Conveying a letter to any person calling for such person to make a statement, give explanation on the facts or else make a written explanation or submit documents, accounts, registers or any evidences to support a consideration or a check on the performance in compliance with this Act.

(2) Entering the land and building requested for registration as a condominium or the land, building or premises being the common property of the condominium in order to make inquiries on the facts, verify documents or evidences to support the consideration or check the performance in compliance with this Act.

(3) Attaching documents, accounts, registers or evidences for the benefit of verifications and preceding the case under this Act."

This section of the Act suggests that It is their job to ensure compliance - or am I missing something here? There is no mention of an investigation requiring a court order prior to taking action.

[thaiwanderer]

So they would be the body to visit to report non compliance with the registered rules and regulations.

You are confusing the significance of registration with ensuring compliance here.

I agree that land registry will do nothing about infringements of regulations etc as it is not their job, it is the job of the courts.

But who brings the case?

If the owners bring a case against the management - who is the representative of the owners - are the owners bringing a case against themselves?

I am aware of one case where an owner wanted to take action against the committee for refusing his application. But since he was part of those that elected the committee surely his only real option is to get rid of the committee otherwise he is suing himself?

In other words if the condo is not managed properly it is the owners who should/must take action. Vote the people out who are mismanaging the condo and install a new, reliable committee or juristic person.

"Section 60/1 In performing in accordance with this Act, the competent official shall have the power as follows:

1) Conveying a letter to any person calling for such person to make a statement, give explanation on the facts or else make a written explanation or submit documents, accounts, registers or any evidences to support a consideration or a check on the performance in compliance with this Act.

(2) Entering the land and building requested for registration as a condominium or the land, building or premises being the common property of the condominium in order to make inquiries on the facts, verify documents or evidences to support the consideration or check the performance in compliance with this Act.

(3) Attaching documents, accounts, registers or evidences for the benefit of verifications and preceding the case under this Act."

This section of the Act suggests that It is their job to ensure compliance - or am I missing something here? There is no mention of an investigation requiring a court order prior to taking action.

The identity of the competent official. In the OP's instance its a consumer protection rather than land office issue.

Nonetheless involving them at the moment may be premature.

Edited May 20, 2011 by thaiwanderer

[Delight]

Delight - If a Condo is being run in a way that is definitely wrong, and not just in a way that you do not like, then you have only one option. Change the Juristic Manager.

The committee has very little powers. They must meet twice a year, they must keep a check on the Juristic manager and (this is their big power) they must appoint a Juristic Manager if the existing one can not carry out their duties.

If you have a genuine problem with the existing Juristic person and the majority of owners agree with you then you can change the Juristic person.

Firstly find someone who is willing to do the job who you trust and the rest of the owners will trust.

Secondly get 20% of the owners to request a General meeting. If it is not called then you can call the meeting yourself.

At the general meeting sack the old Juristic person and appoint the new one.

At the same time you might like to vote onto the committee new members if there are less than 9 existing members of the committee. As someone else said there is no provision for getting rid of committee members.

Then you go to land registry and register the new Juristic person.

But you must do everything correctly. You must have copies of ID cards of all owners who attend and vote and their proxy (if applicable). These must have original signatures, not faxed or e-mailed signatures. You must keep to the time limits given in the law. Ask Land registry what is needed before you call the meeting - in Chiang Mai they are very helpful with their advice.

But to do all this you must have massive support of all owners, especially the Thai owners who make up at least 51% of the owners. Personally I would be looking at 75% of owners supporting you - at least half of them being Thai - and have Thai people fronting the action. It is very useful to get the Condo's bank accounts frozen if there is any possibility of fraud by the old Juristic person.

I've been there, done that, and it took 3-4 months to sort it out. Then we had the difficult bit, managing the building and putting it back on track .................................

Thanks for you detailed response

However it had little to do with the question that I posed

i.e.How do deal with a non-performing committee

Incidentally I cannot agree with your statement:

'The committee has very little powers'

The committee are the Board of Directors-They take all the major decisions. The Manager implements them.

The answer to my question was staring me in the face.

20% co -owners via EGM remove the committee members that they determine are not up to the job

Then vote in the new committee members that they think are up to the task.

This way the co-owners take responsibility