Hard To Prove Reds, Pheu Thai Are One

[webfact]

'Hard to prove reds, Pheu Thai are one'

By Kanittha Thepkajorn,

Olarn Lertrattanadamrongkul

The Nation

Democrats complain to EC that reds give rivals an unfair spending advantage

Election Commission (EC) secretary-general Suthiphon Thaveechaiygarn said it was not easy for the Democrats to prove that the red shirts belonged to the Pheu Thai Party or that they were from the same organisation.

The ruling Democrat Party has cried foul over the red shirts rallying to help Pheu Thai in its election campaign. It called on the EC to strictly check Pheu Thai's campaign spending by including election spending incurred by the red shirts as part of Pheu Thai's outlays.

"There are many political groups - yellow, red. They may be related but they are not in the same group,'' Suthiphon said.

He said campaign spending could only be checked after the election had been held and it was different from electoral fraud, which it could check before and after the poll.

The Democrat Party, which faced possible dissolution over a complaint about election spending, won legal cases late last year to avert such a threat.

Democrat deputy spokesman Warong Dejkitwikrom spoke at a press conference calling on the EC to strictly check Pheu Thai's spending after the royal decree to dissolve Parliament went into effect on May 10.

He said it was believed that Pheu Thai and the red shirts were one. Therefore, the EC must enforce the law to prevent the red shirts from carrying out any activities that would benefit Pheu Thai, otherwise the party would have an unfair edge over its rivals.

"The EC must take action to prevent other parties from using

rallies or other activities to help

them win the election," he said.

Meanwhile, a leader of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship, Natthawut Saikua, a Pheu Thai party-list candidate, said he would talk to DAAD leader Thida Tojirakarn to rein in the red shirts after reports that they had been harassing Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva during campaigning by holding placards with messages to oust him.

"I want the red shirts to stop harassing Abhisit as the country should have a good election climate," he said. "If the red shirts go to Abhisit's rally stage to oust him, they may face negative consequences as Abhisit can file complaints accusing us of blocking his election rally.

"I want every red shirt to keep calm and let everything go according to the rules,'' he said.

Election Commission chairman Apichart Sukhagganond said the red shirts did not commit any offence by holding placards calling for the PM to be ousted. "The act does not violate election laws as long as there are no physical assaults,'' he said.

Natthawut denied allegations that the red shirts were rewarded en masse by being named as Pheu Thai party-list candidates. He said only three people - Dr Weng Tojirakarn, Vipoothalaeng Pattanaphumthai, and Shinawatra Habunpad - had benefited.

Jatuporn Promphan and Kokaew Pikulthong had earlier been members of Pheu Thai from the beginning. Some had contested in elections. Some who faced political bans sent their wives or relatives to represent them.

He also rejected reports that Petchawat Wattanapongsirikul, a leader of Love Chiang Mai 51 group, was upset that he was ranked No 86 on the Pheu Thai party list and threatened to order the red shirts in Chiang Mai not to vote against Pheu Thai.

Natthawut said Petchawat were a bit upset but it was not a big issue. He will feel better in a few days and will not abandon the party.

-- The Nation 2011-05-23

[patjem]

Ans is the Pope a catholic? Regardless to which entity donations are made and then used, reds= PTP.

[whybother]

How is it hard to prove?

There is a red shirt leader / PTP MP in jail. There are half a dozen red shirt leaders on the PTP party list.

What are they missing?

[Thaddeus]

How is it hard to prove?

There is a red shirt leader / PTP MP in jail. There are half a dozen red shirt leaders on the PTP party list.

What are they missing?

Morals, sincerity, honesty, direction, integrity etc etc etc

[whybother]

How is it hard to prove?

There is a red shirt leader / PTP MP in jail. There are half a dozen red shirt leaders on the PTP party list.

What are they missing?

Morals, sincerity, honesty, direction, integrity etc etc etc

Yes. You're right. But I was actually referring to the EC. What are the EC missing that they can't prove that the redshirts and PTP are the same.

[Buchholz]

How is it hard to prove?

There is a red shirt leader / PTP MP in jail. There are half a dozen red shirt leaders on the PTP party list.

What are they missing?

The other paper is reporting that between PTP Party-list candidates and constituency MP candidates there are 100 Red Shirts that have been named.

Really, really hard to not see a connection.

Thaksin = PTP = Red Shirts

has been shown time and time again.

.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Buchholz

[Thaddeus]

How is it hard to prove?

There is a red shirt leader / PTP MP in jail. There are half a dozen red shirt leaders on the PTP party list.

What are they missing?

Morals, sincerity, honesty, direction, integrity etc etc etc

Yes. You're right. But I was actually referring to the EC. What are the EC missing that they can't prove that the redshirts and PTP are the same.

Sorry, came at it from the wrong angle.

What are the EC missing?

I suspect that they aren't missing anything, they are playing poker and keeping their cards very close to their chest.

[slapout]

Admission of guilt is what gets you a reduced sentence in this country. The authorities seem to have a difficult time proving anything, murder, loan sharking, prostitution, corruption, missing people, witness change stories, etc. When you have the amateurs going after the experienced individuals/groups, its bush league vs professionals. Expect the same outcome.

[yoshiwara]

They are NOT the same, but the wrong question is being asked. The question is whether they are both owned and controlled by Thaksin. They are. Two different layers of the same onion. Why some are wondering if they are the same is because Thaksin is moving red shirt leaders into the leadership of the PTP in order to make sure that the remaining PTP does not bolt and to act as 'minders' to his sister who he has reminded in no uncertain fashion that she is his 'clone' and to have no fancy ideas of her own. All strings of the puppet-master are being shortened.

[TAWP]

Much like the Brown shirts and the SS wasn't the same organization Red Shirts and PTP are different entities joined by a common goal, financier and leadership...

[hanuman1]

So it's hard to prove the reds and PTP are the same thing. Only in a legal sense, of course.

[samurai]

So it's hard to prove the reds and PTP are the same thing. Only in a legal sense, of course.

Reminds me on the Democrats dissolution case. it was finally dropped because of a legal technicality.

One guy spoiled it, because he had to different capacities. One as the Chairman of the EC and the other one as the political party registrar. During the investigation and the legal procedure he somehow mixed his two job up acted as Chairman, meanwhile it would be a task for the registrar or the other way around. and that was the reason for the court to dismiss the case.

Somehow like this and more complicated. Don't ask me for details.

My point is. One and the same person and for the court was it clear that the two were totally different. And that came also to the surprise of that very person, the EC chairman and party registrar who wasn't aware that he did something wrong.

[lrena]

If the Puea Thai should be disqualified because they are supported by the red shirts, shouldn't the Democrats also be disqualified because they are supported by the yellow shirts? Easy to prove, using the above mentioned formulas, as a yellow shirt leader is the current Foreign Minister.

[JurgenG]

Much like the Brown shirts and the SS wasn't the same organization Red Shirts and PTP are different entities joined by a common goal, financier and leadership...

You can add to your list the IRA and Sinn Fein, the ETA and Herri Batusana, the PAD and the democrats ....

Edited May 24, 2011 by JurgenG

[animatic]

These people saying this idiocy are soft as a sneaker full of puppy s***.

Hard to prove... well other than the constant stream of Thaksin public talks

and instructions for BOTH groups, why not just FOLLOW THE MONEY.

[whybother]

If the Puea Thai should be disqualified because they are supported by the red shirts, shouldn't the Democrats also be disqualified because they are supported by the yellow shirts? Easy to prove, using the above mentioned formulas, as a yellow shirt leader is the current Foreign Minister.

Do you mean the Yellow Shirts that are campaigning a "No Vote". Or the Yellow Shirts that were demanding that Abhisit step down?

When was the Foreign Minister a yellow shirt leader? He might have supported them at one stage, but even he was calling on them to end their current protests.

I think you need to find a bit more proof ... like maybe the last time he talked at a yellow shirt gathering.

[animatic]

Much like the Brown shirts and the SS wasn't the same organization Red Shirts and PTP are different entities joined by a common goal, financier and leadership...

Ignoring the invocation of Godwins law, this is a very close analogue.

Brown shirts = National Socialist Party = SS enforcers = Backers.

In hind sight this is glaringly clear.

Some would try and say that it is in real time today and hard to discern...

bull poop.

[Buchholz]

If the Puea Thai should be disqualified because they are supported by the red shirts, shouldn't the Democrats also be disqualified because they are supported by the yellow shirts? Easy to prove, using the above mentioned formulas, as a yellow shirt leader is the current Foreign Minister.

Do you mean the Yellow Shirts that are campaigning a "No Vote". Or the Yellow Shirts that were demanding that Abhisit step down?

When was the Foreign Minister a yellow shirt leader? He might have supported them at one stage, but even he was calling on them to end their current protests.

I think you need to find a bit more proof ... like maybe the last time he talked at a yellow shirt gathering.

There isn't any proof because it was never true.

It was just an absurd drive-by throwaway line designed to elicit responses.

.

[Buchholz]

So it's hard to prove the reds and PTP are the same thing. Only in a legal sense, of course.

It may or may not be hard as we don't have a person from the legal community saying it is difficult.

.

[JurgenG]

If the Puea Thai should be disqualified because they are supported by the red shirts, shouldn't the Democrats also be disqualified because they are supported by the yellow shirts? Easy to prove, using the above mentioned formulas, as a yellow shirt leader is the current Foreign Minister.

Do you mean the Yellow Shirts that are campaigning a "No Vote". Or the Yellow Shirts that were demanding that Abhisit step down?

When was the Foreign Minister a yellow shirt leader? He might have supported them at one stage, but even he was calling on them to end their current protests.

I think you need to find a bit more proof ... like maybe the last time he talked at a yellow shirt gathering.

Good remark, so I guess the best analogy for the alliance between the PAD and the democrat is the IRA and Sinn Fein, once the political arm has found some legitimacy, they dumped the "revolutionary" arm.

It doesn't augur well for the red shirts once the PTP will be back in power but that's life, or, more exactly, that's politic.

[samurai]

If the Puea Thai should be disqualified because they are supported by the red shirts, shouldn't the Democrats also be disqualified because they are supported by the yellow shirts? Easy to prove, using the above mentioned formulas, as a yellow shirt leader is the current Foreign Minister.

Guess why it is so hard to prove. Because they have to be colour blind and non-partisan.

Some yellow (i am not yellow) Democrats supporter seems not to understand it.

[whybother]

If the Puea Thai should be disqualified because they are supported by the red shirts, shouldn't the Democrats also be disqualified because they are supported by the yellow shirts? Easy to prove, using the above mentioned formulas, as a yellow shirt leader is the current Foreign Minister.

Guess why it is so hard to prove. Because they have to be colour blind and non-partisan.

Some yellow (i am not yellow) Democrats supporter seems not to understand it.

The one example that Irena gave is wrong. Are there any other examples that the yellow shirts and Democrats are joined at the hips in the way that the PTP and red shirts are?

[OzMick]

They are not the same, but closely related - their relationship is incestuous, and the bastard result decidedly retarded.

Interesting that physical assault is not acceptable under thai election law, but apparently intimidation is OK.

[samurai]

If the Puea Thai should be disqualified because they are supported by the red shirts, shouldn't the Democrats also be disqualified because they are supported by the yellow shirts? Easy to prove, using the above mentioned formulas, as a yellow shirt leader is the current Foreign Minister.

Guess why it is so hard to prove. Because they have to be colour blind and non-partisan.

Some yellow (i am not yellow) Democrats supporter seems not to understand it.

The one example that Irena gave is wrong. Are there any other examples that the yellow shirts and Democrats are joined at the hips in the way that the PTP and red shirts are?

Is this thread about easy to prove PAD, Dem's are one or is it a thread about hard to prove Reds, Pheu Thai are one?

And did anyone proved now anything?

Yellow (i am not yellow) Dem's supporter wanna achieve democracy with putting a ban on the opposition they cannot beat in a free and fair election.

[phiphidon]

They are not the same, but closely related - their relationship is incestuous, and the bastard result decidedly retarded.

Interesting that physical assault is not acceptable under thai election law, but apparently intimidation is OK.

Just out of interest what intimidation has taken place and to whom? I presume you are not referring to holding up placards are you? If that is regarded as intimidation the PAD protester who was photographed holding up a Vote No sign (in the other paper) is also guilty of intimidation, but I haven't heard Suthep complain about that.

[OzMick]

They are not the same, but closely related - their relationship is incestuous, and the bastard result decidedly retarded.

Interesting that physical assault is not acceptable under thai election law, but apparently intimidation is OK.

Just out of interest what intimidation has taken place and to whom? I presume you are not referring to holding up placards are you? If that is regarded as intimidation the PAD protester who was photographed holding up a Vote No sign (in the other paper) is also guilty of intimidation, but I haven't heard Suthep complain about that.

1 person holding a placard is certainly not intimidation - but a few hundred uniformed members of a party's militant wing would amount to it in my book!

[samurai]

They are not the same, but closely related - their relationship is incestuous, and the bastard result decidedly retarded.

Interesting that physical assault is not acceptable under thai election law, but apparently intimidation is OK.

Just out of interest what intimidation has taken place and to whom? I presume you are not referring to holding up placards are you? If that is regarded as intimidation the PAD protester who was photographed holding up a Vote No sign (in the other paper) is also guilty of intimidation, but I haven't heard Suthep complain about that.

""The EC must take action to prevent other parties from using rallies or other activities to help them win the election," he said."

Other parties win the election - That is the intimidation the Dem's talking about. And they are pissed of that they have no posse.

[TAWP]

samurai>> Back on Earth... it isn't about being unable to ban people a party cannot beat in an election (...). it is about using a proxy-organization to get around election laws on spending-limits.

[hanuman1]

So it's hard to prove the reds and PTP are the same thing. Only in a legal sense, of course.

It may or may not be hard as we don't have a person from the legal community saying it is difficult.

.

So where does that leave the celebrated formula (let's call it 'Formula T') devised by anti-red obsessive mathematicians:

Thaksin = PTP = Red Shirts

If it's hard to prove (which it may or may not be) that reds and PTP are the same thing, this implies that it may not be possible. I know it doesn't state it explicitly, but in the real world people say things like this and mean that it may not be possible due to said difficulty.

So if it may not be possible to prove the link, shouldn't you guys revise your concept of equivalence (which was flawed even before this particular thread started)? Whilst all mathematicians strive for elegance and simplicity in their findings, I fear 'Formula T' is a little too simple for its own good. Kind of resembles more of a completely subjective opinion than a demonstrable truth. Maybe 'Theory T' would be a better name for it.

What's the mathematical notation for 'may or may not be'?

Edited May 24, 2011 by hanuman1

[rubl]

So it's hard to prove the reds and PTP are the same thing. Only in a legal sense, of course.

It may or may not be hard as we don't have a person from the legal community saying it is difficult..

So where does that leave the celebrated formula (let's call it 'Formula T') devised by anti-red obsessive mathematicians:

Thaksin = PTP = Red Shirts

... end removed

Wasn't the famous formular 'Thaksin = PTP = UDD'? Now that should be a wee bit more easy to prove