4Wd

[thaipod]

I was hoping to get some imput on 4WD s . I would like to travel to different places in Thailand ( up north ,isan etc ), but want to go off road sometimes.

I have looked at the Ford Escape which I don't think it will take too much rugged treatment more for highway / city life .The Everest seems good but too big ,as the MU7 more like ute comfort with a full cab.

The Mitsu Pajero seems good and comfortable but the body looks weak and the Toyota landcruiser is out of my range.

I'd appeciate any info about what is good or not so good

Cheers

[MoonRiverOasis]

You haven't mentioned your budget...

Of the vehicles you've mentioned, Escape is a monocoque, but Everest, MU-7, Pajero Sport (and Fortuner) are all body on full chassis, so tough as nails.

Fortuner 4x4 is full-time with viscous coupling, so fine for medium duty stuff, but it's lack of low-range and locking diffs make it a bit weaker in really heavy going.

Everest and MU-7 both offer low range and locking diff, but their 4x4 cannot be used (safely/reliably) on-road.

Pajero sport has 4 modes - 2wd, full-time 4wd with viscous coupling, and 4wd fully locked with high and low range, but is only available in Auto transmission (some hardcore off-road guys still prefer Manual), but otherwise it's probably the best credentialled 4wd under 3M baht (where the Land Rover Defender starts in price)

Many other options out there too, but all are monocoque and many lack low-range and lockers, so may not be tough enough for your needs..

Edit: Should also point out that most of the models mentioned above have pick-up equivelents with the same capabilities, but at cheaper prices.

Edited May 23, 2011 by MoonRiverOasis

[katabeachbum]

Fortuner 4x4 is full-time with viscous coupling, so fine for medium duty stuff, but it's lack of low-range and locking diffs make it a bit weaker in really heavy going.

my 2005 Fortuner 3,0 auto fulltime 4x4 came with low range, so does the 2006 in my garage, and so does a new one. Locking diffs have for 2 decades successfully been replaced with traction control using brakes to slow down wheel(s) with less traction, for Fortuner thats since November 2008, for Range Rover thats past 20 years.

Fortuner is offroad on par with low end Landcruisers, and due to its lower weight and shorter wheelbase sometimes better than high end Landcruisers

[fredob43]

Fortuner 4x4 is full-time with viscous coupling, so fine for medium duty stuff, but it's lack of low-range and locking diffs make it a bit weaker in really heavy going.

my 2005 Fortuner 3,0 auto fulltime 4x4 came with low range, so does the 2006 in my garage, and so does a new one. Locking diffs have for 2 decades successfully been replaced with traction control using brakes to slow down wheel(s) with less traction, for Fortuner thats since November 2008, for Range Rover thats past 20 years.

Fortuner is offroad on par with low end Landcruisers, and due to its lower weight and shorter wheelbase sometimes better than high end Landcruisers

Spot on again. I would point out that the Fortuner manual now only come's with a 2.5 lump, and having driven one is slow like the petrol 2.7 almost under powered. Edited May 24, 2011 by fredob43

[Histavia]

"Everest and MU-7 both offer low range and locking diff, but their 4x4 cannot be used (safely/reliably) on-road." - not according to my local dealers - no ocking diffs - some might have limited slip on the rear but I understand that the Ford now doesn't even have that.

To be truly useful off-road a vehicle needs to be able to lock or at least restrict the drive to BOTH front and rear axles - not of the pickups available in Thailand offer this.

as stated the Mitsu has the most comprehensive 4WD.

The Everest is just a pickup with an SUV body as ae the Isuzu, Fortuner and Mitsu albeit with a few mods and upgraded drive systems.

As for rugged - well a Chassis-based vehicle that has been upgraded from a one-ton pick up is not particularly suited for heavy off- raod stuff - the chassis simply isn't that strong.

THe Land-rovers are purpose built for off-road not modified from a basic pick-up.

tHe Escape (Ford/Mazda) has a fairly sophisticated 4WD system on those actually fitted with 4wd - many aren't as does the Land-rover Freelander - they might be worth looking at.

The older Ladcruisers (10 years or so) are just about unbeatable off-road - only Land-rovers get anywhere near and they are so dated that they are hardly worth comparing.

[David006]

"Everest and MU-7 both offer low range and locking diff, but their 4x4 cannot be used (safely/reliably) on-road." - not according to my local dealers - no ocking diffs - some might have limited slip on the rear but I understand that the Ford now doesn't even have that.

To be truly useful off-road a vehicle needs to be able to lock or at least restrict the drive to BOTH front and rear axles - not of the pickups available in Thailand offer this.

as stated the Mitsu has the most comprehensive 4WD.

The Everest is just a pickup with an SUV body as ae the Isuzu, Fortuner and Mitsu albeit with a few mods and upgraded drive systems.

As for rugged - well a Chassis-based vehicle that has been upgraded from a one-ton pick up is not particularly suited for heavy off- raod stuff - the chassis simply isn't that strong.

THe Land-rovers are purpose built for off-road not modified from a basic pick-up.

tHe Escape (Ford/Mazda) has a fairly sophisticated 4WD system on those actually fitted with 4wd - many aren't as does the Land-rover Freelander - they might be worth looking at.

The older Ladcruisers (10 years or so) are just about unbeatable off-road - only Land-rovers get anywhere near and they are so dated that they are hardly worth comparing.

..gotta agree with Landcruiser off road capabilities but some say they are too heavy for beach sand and bog easier than lighter vehicles..I bought an Isuzu Jackaroo (Trooper) in Oz back in '93 for this reason.. best vehicle I ever owned ..took me up the "top end" with no problems except for a ripped off muffler crossing a river...The ex drove an older Landrover Discovery ...loved it but a shitty finish ...everything kept falling off even the radio buttons!!.

..That said don't know what the equivalent current model Trooper would be and since all manufacturers tend to value the urban tractor factor probably not the same utility now..think I would go for a Tiger or Isuzu 4WD truck now..

[SantiSuk]

"Want to go off-road a bit sometime" per OP. I think you guys responding are getting a bit too geeky for the OP's needs. He hasn't mentioned anything about heavy duty requirements so I doubt he's going to be into breaking the chassis of the less purist models .

[transam]

"Want to go off-road a bit sometime" per OP. I think you guys responding are getting a bit too geeky for the OP's needs. He hasn't mentioned anything about heavy duty requirements so I doubt he's going to be into breaking the chassis of the less purist models .

Tend to agree. BBC's Top Gear took a Vigo to the Arctic, yes made mods but the vehicle chassis etc was much the same as stock. Watch the vid on Youtube. The Vigo chassis is stronger than the old Tiger.

[katabeachbum]

"Want to go off-road a bit sometime" per OP. I think you guys responding are getting a bit too geeky for the OP's needs. He hasn't mentioned anything about heavy duty requirements so I doubt he's going to be into breaking the chassis of the less purist models .

Tend to agree. BBC's Top Gear took a Vigo to the Arctic, yes made mods but the vehicle chassis etc was much the same as stock. Watch the vid on Youtube. The Vigo chassis is stronger than the old Tiger.

and take Vigo chassis, shorten it 25cm/10 inches between axles, and you have a Fortuner chassis. Goes without saying same chassis/frame but much shorter is much stronger/rigid.

then use a more advanced rear coil spring setup, ad traction control by using brakes to slow down wheel(s) with reduced traction, and you pretty much have a 1992-1994 Range Rover with more tourque. Hard to beat offroad

[transam]

"Want to go off-road a bit sometime" per OP. I think you guys responding are getting a bit too geeky for the OP's needs. He hasn't mentioned anything about heavy duty requirements so I doubt he's going to be into breaking the chassis of the less purist models .

Tend to agree. BBC's Top Gear took a Vigo to the Arctic, yes made mods but the vehicle chassis etc was much the same as stock. Watch the vid on Youtube. The Vigo chassis is stronger than the old Tiger.

and take Vigo chassis, shorten it 25cm/10 inches between axles, and you have a Fortuner chassis. Goes without saying same chassis/frame but much shorter is much stronger/rigid.

then use a more advanced rear coil spring setup, ad traction control by using brakes to slow down wheel(s) with reduced traction, and you pretty much have a 1992-1994 Range Rover with more tourque. Hard to beat offroad

Yep, if l were the OP l would go for a Fortuner, the price is right, the reliability is right and it does the job.

[stingray]

Hummer H2 or H3

[maccaroni man]

my ford everest is ok off road as long as i dont need ot go through bush or hit anything heavy as it is all plastic and front clips fall off with a nudge. i have a 4x4 toyota with a bush gard and it is like a mule goes where ever i want althoug it could be a tad higher to avoid the once off high center.

[GamLing]

Just a thought!!! Which manufacturer wins most places in the first six finishers in the Lisbon Dakar Rallies? It's Mitsubishi!!! They are made from girders.

Edited June 17, 2011 by GamLing

[transam]

Just a thought!!! Which manufacturer wins most places in the first six finishers in the Lisbon Dakar Rallies? It's Mitsubishi!!! They are made from girders.

BUT BUT BUT, what you buy for your use is NOTHING like, or engineered like a rally ride.

[David006]

okay so we have some Fortuner lovers out there...understandably as they appear nice vehicles....

So what about full time versus manual 4WD? Locking diffs and hubs auto or manual, limited slip diffs..What are the options out there..ie which vehicles have what optioned or otherwise??

...had a guy on our farm with his shiny new VIGO 4WD with one offside wheel a little off the ground...could not move as both wheels on that side slipping!

Edited June 17, 2011 by David006

[katabeachbum]

okay so we have some Fortuner lovers out there...understandably as they appear nice vehicles....

So what about full time versus manual 4WD? Locking diffs and hubs auto or manual, limited slip diffs..What are the options out there..ie which vehicles have what optioned or otherwise??

...had a guy on our farm with his shiny new VIGO 4WD with one offside wheel a little off the ground...could not move as both wheels on that side slipping!

manual 4x4 with diff LOCK front and rear beats anything, Mitsu Pajero Sport. But it requires a driver with knowledge how to use it. Fulltime with electronic traction works better for the masses

Limited slip is a bit unpredictable, and reduces traction on paved roads

Vigo is not as good offroad as Fortuner or Pajero Sport. Short suspension travel due to rear leafs, long wheelbase, long rearend, and no traction control/diff LOCKS before late 2008 except for rear limited slip

[Big Guns]

The following is a severe warning for those who use the 4WD of their pickups on the road;

Here is why part time 4WD should never be used on dry pavement:

Eventually you will break parts - expensive parts.

All caused by driveline windup

Before you get too upset - most modern 4WD vehicles do not have "part time" 4WD.

They are either "full time" 4WD or AWD. Find out what you have here.

The terms used differ from driveline wind up to axle bind, axle wind up and drive line bind, but fact is, that you can not use part time 4WD on dry high traction surfaces. Period. You'll get drive line windup. This has been known since the invention of 4WD more than 100 years ago.

Unfortunately some owners of part time 4WD vehicles don't know yet.

Then there are some "smart" guys claiming their truck being strong enough to handle part time 4WD and the resulting driveline windup on pavement. And it is true, some trucks are stronger than others - they break later.

If you know about the stresses created by part time 4WD on pavement, you should never expose your truck/car to that kind of hardship.

The extreme tension and pressures caused by the absence of a center differential (or caused by a locked center differential) will break down the protective properties of all lubricants, eventually leading to expensive component failure.

The image below is from a Jeep Grand Cherokee after accidentally driving about for 150 miles in part time 4WD on the freeway. It exploded at about 70 mph.

For more information on 4WD have a look at this website; http://www.4x4abc.com

Cheers

[katabeachbum]

The following is a severe warning for those who use the 4WD of their pickups on the road;

Here is why part time 4WD should never be used on dry pavement:

Eventually you will break parts - expensive parts.

All caused by driveline windup

Before you get too upset - most modern 4WD vehicles do not have "part time" 4WD.

They are either "full time" 4WD or AWD. Find out what you have here.

The terms used differ from driveline wind up to axle bind, axle wind up and drive line bind, but fact is, that you can not use part time 4WD on dry high traction surfaces. Period. You'll get drive line windup. This has been known since the invention of 4WD more than 100 years ago.

Unfortunately some owners of part time 4WD vehicles don't know yet.

Then there are some "smart" guys claiming their truck being strong enough to handle part time 4WD and the resulting driveline windup on pavement. And it is true, some trucks are stronger than others - they break later.

If you know about the stresses created by part time 4WD on pavement, you should never expose your truck/car to that kind of hardship.

The extreme tension and pressures caused by the absence of a center differential (or caused by a locked center differential) will break down the protective properties of all lubricants, eventually leading to expensive component failure.

The image below is from a Jeep Grand Cherokee after accidentally driving about for 150 miles in part time 4WD on the freeway. It exploded at about 70 mph.

For more information on 4WD have a look at this website; http://www.4x4abc.com

Cheers

so true

very informative

thanks

[Kwasaki]

The following is a severe warning for those who use the 4WD of their pickups on the road;

Here is why part time 4WD should never be used on dry pavement:

Eventually you will break parts - expensive parts.

All caused by driveline windup

Before you get too upset - most modern 4WD vehicles do not have "part time" 4WD.

They are either "full time" 4WD or AWD. Find out what you have here.

The terms used differ from driveline wind up to axle bind, axle wind up and drive line bind, but fact is, that you can not use part time 4WD on dry high traction surfaces. Period. You'll get drive line windup. This has been known since the invention of 4WD more than 100 years ago.

Unfortunately some owners of part time 4WD vehicles don't know yet.

Then there are some "smart" guys claiming their truck being strong enough to handle part time 4WD and the resulting driveline windup on pavement. And it is true, some trucks are stronger than others - they break later.

If you know about the stresses created by part time 4WD on pavement, you should never expose your truck/car to that kind of hardship.

The extreme tension and pressures caused by the absence of a center differential (or caused by a locked center differential) will break down the protective properties of all lubricants, eventually leading to expensive component failure.

The image below is from a Jeep Grand Cherokee after accidentally driving about for 150 miles in part time 4WD on the freeway. It exploded at about 70 mph.

For more information on 4WD have a look at this website; http://www.4x4abc.com

Cheers

A good advert for Toyota's then !!! the Vigo 4x4 auto 3.0L D4D, I owned drove the top to toe of Thailand, back and forth to Mae-sot for 5 years, and I only shifted out of 4WD when in my village in a Town, parking or pulling into a service station.

I would also drive at average speeds of above 90kpm on good roads and highways.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Kwasaki

[GamLing]

Just a thought!!! Which manufacturer wins most places in the first six finishers in the Lisbon Dakar Rallies? It's Mitsubishi!!! They are made from girders.

BUT BUT BUT, what you buy for your use is NOTHING like, or engineered like a rally ride.

Yes, I know that. My point was simply to illustrate the merits and strengths of a Mitsubishi. They are still made from girders! If you have the opportunity, take a look at the structural differences in the spare wheel carrier attached to the rear of a Mitsubishi SUV compared to those on other SUVs from other manufacturers. (Mitsubishi also built battleships and long range fighter aircraft).

The performance, design and safety aspects of modern everyday cars have evolved from experience gained on a rally or a race track. e.g. disc brakes, ABS.... to name but two.

Edited June 18, 2011 by GamLing

[MoonRiverOasis]

Just a thought!!! Which manufacturer wins most places in the first six finishers in the Lisbon Dakar Rallies? It's Mitsubishi!!! They are made from girders.

BUT BUT BUT, what you buy for your use is NOTHING like, or engineered like a rally ride.

Actually, Mitsu Thailand campaigned a Pajero Sport in the 2009 Dakar that used the standard car's chassis and drivetrain. Only real changes were the normal Dakar body mods, rally suspension, and some engine tweaks.

It started back around 60th, dropped to > 100th after getting bogged, but came back for an overall result of 73rd (out of 168), with best efforts being a 17th on stage 14.

Not bad for a virtually stock car, from a low-budget and inexperienced team..

Edited June 18, 2011 by MoonRiverOasis

[transam]

Just a thought!!! Which manufacturer wins most places in the first six finishers in the Lisbon Dakar Rallies? It's Mitsubishi!!! They are made from girders.

BUT BUT BUT, what you buy for your use is NOTHING like, or engineered like a rally ride.

Actually, Mitsu Thailand campaigned a Pajero Sport in the 2009 Dakar that used the standard car's chassis and drivetrain. Only real changes were the normal Dakar body mods, rally suspension, and some engine tweaks.

It started back around 60th, dropped to > 100th after getting bogged, but came back for an overall result of 73rd (out of 168), with best efforts being a 17th on stage 14.

Not bad for a virtually stock car, from a low-budget and inexperienced team..

Thats cool, but don't these teams have a large truck following for stop overs with spare engines, axles, gearboxes and pizza's.

[Histavia]

..gotta agree with Landcruiser off road capabilities but some say they are too heavy for beach sand and bog easier than lighter vehicles..I bought an Isuzu Jackaroo (Trooper) in Oz back in '93 for this reason.. best vehicle I ever owned ..took me up the "top end" with no problems except for a ripped off muffler crossing a river...The ex drove an older Landrover Discovery ...loved it but a shitty finish ...everything kept falling off even the radio buttons!!.

..That said don't know what the equivalent current model Trooper would be and since all manufacturers tend to value the urban tractor factor probably not the same utility now..think I would go for a Tiger or Isuzu 4WD truck now..

I've driven Land cruisers in many environments including all over Moreton Island and other sandy beaches around Qld. I’ve also pulled several other vehicles out that had got stuck - the usual reason? They didn't let their tyres down sufficiently.

Unfortunately the Holden doesn't have locking diff at the front so if you loose traction that's it.

The top gear vigo was the North pole backup truck and HEAVILY modified to cope with the Arctic conditions - also in other countries e.g. Oz both the Vigo and Mitsu pickups are fitted with different spec 4wd systems similar to the Fortuner and Pajero Sport.

As for wind up - well, it's largely a wind-up!

As the pick-up 4wds in Thailand have neither locking diff at front nor rear and usually only a rear limited slip diff - how can they wind up?????

THe key is that the "old" 4wds had solid beam axles that locked and obviously would never be in perfect sync so the old systems would "wind-up" - they needed to loose traction once in a while to loosen up.

Having said that leaving your pick up permanently in 4WD isn't going to do it any good as you'll be using a lot of transmission parts that aren't designed for sustained hi-speed use, not to mention the extra strain on the UJs and steering and loss of fuel consumption.

It is however a good idea to enage and run in 4WD just for a few km every week just to keep the parts lubricated and free.

[Histavia]

PS - both Mitsu and Toyota claim the chassis of the current models are "stronger" - but how significant that is really depends on your starting point.

THe older "strada" had a reputation for having a really strong chasis, but the fact remains its primary design is for use on a plain pickup.

If you want to take a closer look at the Mitsu or Iszu chassis, take a drive down to Laem Chabang and you'll see thousands of them.....you'll also see how "flimsy" they are.

Chassis like these can never have the torsional strength of a monocoque construction.

[Histavia]

PPS - it has to be said that a lot of people using 4WDs in completion now prefer the fully automatic intelligent systems as it is almost impossible for them to loose traction in any circumstances and power is sent to the wheels that need it.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Histavia

[Histavia]

PPS - the Cherokee has "old style" beam axles and locking diffs - quite different from the Vigo or Mitsu pick ups.

[pampal]

Definitely Pajero Sport if you will be doing serious off roading.

[David006]

..gotta agree with Landcruiser off road capabilities but some say they are too heavy for beach sand and bog easier than lighter vehicles..I bought an Isuzu Jackaroo (Trooper) in Oz back in '93 for this reason.. best vehicle I ever owned ..took me up the "top end" with no problems except for a ripped off muffler crossing a river...The ex drove an older Landrover Discovery ...loved it but a shitty finish ...everything kept falling off even the radio buttons!!.

..That said don't know what the equivalent current model Trooper would be and since all manufacturers tend to value the urban tractor factor probably not the same utility now..think I would go for a Tiger or Isuzu 4WD truck now..

I've driven Land cruisers in many environments including all over Moreton Island and other sandy beaches around Qld. I’ve also pulled several other vehicles out that had got stuck - the usual reason? They didn't let their tyres down sufficiently.

Unfortunately the Holden doesn't have locking diff at the front so if you loose traction that's it.

The top gear vigo was the North pole backup truck and HEAVILY modified to cope with the Arctic conditions - also in other countries e.g. Oz both the Vigo and Mitsu pickups are fitted with different spec 4wd systems similar to the Fortuner and Pajero Sport.

As for wind up - well, it's largely a wind-up!

As the pick-up 4wds in Thailand have neither locking diff at front nor rear and usually only a rear limited slip diff - how can they wind up?????

THe key is that the "old" 4wds had solid beam axles that locked and obviously would never be in perfect sync so the old systems would "wind-up" - they needed to loose traction once in a while to loosen up.

Having said that leaving your pick up permanently in 4WD isn't going to do it any good as you'll be using a lot of transmission parts that aren't designed for sustained hi-speed use, not to mention the extra strain on the UJs and steering and loss of fuel consumption.

It is however a good idea to enage and run in 4WD just for a few km every week just to keep the parts lubricated and free.

[

agree totally..though seem to remember my old Jackaroo automatically locked all wheel hubs when in 4WD.( then drove like an oil tanker )...saw many others with the manual twist ones on the front too?

Anyways there is such a lot of good info coming here ...some of it conflicting ie full time 4WD would seem to cause wind up...don't know why anyone would use manual 4WD on dry pavement though??

Sounds like the Pajero is tops and the Fortuner close? Pity the Fortuner looks so much like a "moms taxi" and the Pajero looks like a raised saloon. I guess am a bit old fashioned and like a truck/4WD to look like a truck/4WD.. ooh ha..lol..the old Pajero was "nice".

Probably need to go to one of the many 4wd forums to get a broader picture methinks....

[kwonitoy]

I was hoping to get some imput on 4WD s . I would like to travel to different places in Thailand ( up north ,isan etc ), but want to go off road sometimes.

Thaipod:

To answer your original question, You're probably going to be doing 90%+ highway driving with the occasional offroad excersion. Just about anything you mentioned will do the job adequetly, depending on your own offroad skills and experience.

I've worked on pipeline contruction around the world and in Thailand, we buy box stock 4wd pickups for the workers and SUV's for the supervisor by the truckload. I've personally used Izuzu, Mitusbishi, Toyota,Chevrolet, Ford, Dodge, pickups and Pajero, Jeep,Landrover,Chev, Ford SUV's. We put those trucks through things that would make the manufacutuor cringe and I've had more than one dealer say what the hell do you guys DO TO THESE TRUCKS?

What it comes down to is skill level, I've seen trucks get totaled in a week, and have used my own truck for 14 months in the mountains going to the Burma border with no mechanical problems. Most people don't understand what is happening in the drivetrain when you're getting down and dirty, they just look out the window grip the wheel and put there foot to the floor

There is lots of good advice from the posters about serious offroad vehicles but remember you'll be driving on the highway more than offroad. The only advice I would give is to change out the tires for something with a little more offroad grip, but not too aggresive. That's the only mod we do at work.

It all comes down to knowing what the truck can handle, and more importantly what you know that you can handle.

It's surprising how far a stock truck will go, but I have the advantage of having sidebooms and dozers nearby when I get stuck. Also I don't own the truck and every job I go on they give me a new truck

As was pointed out to me as young guy its not the places you can go with a 4X4 it's the places you can get OUT of.

Ken

[MoonRiverOasis]

Just a thought!!! Which manufacturer wins most places in the first six finishers in the Lisbon Dakar Rallies? It's Mitsubishi!!! They are made from girders.

BUT BUT BUT, what you buy for your use is NOTHING like, or engineered like a rally ride.

Actually, Mitsu Thailand campaigned a Pajero Sport in the 2009 Dakar that used the standard car's chassis and drivetrain. Only real changes were the normal Dakar body mods, rally suspension, and some engine tweaks.

It started back around 60th, dropped to > 100th after getting bogged, but came back for an overall result of 73rd (out of 168), with best efforts being a 17th on stage 14.

Not bad for a virtually stock car, from a low-budget and inexperienced team..

Thats cool, but don't these teams have a large truck following for stop overs with spare engines, axles, gearboxes and pizza's.

They race over 9,500KM in a 14-day period, of which over 5,600KM is hardcore off-road driving at full tilt, without any support team at all to speak of.

Not. LOL

Just finishing the Dakar is an acheivement - most stages are around 700KM in length, and in many cases there's no support until the end of the stage, so the driver has to complete the stage before any repairs can be undertaken.

There's not too many forms of motorsport that are as physcally demanding on cars as the Dakar..

Edited June 19, 2011 by MoonRiverOasis