Amnesty 'Aimed At Both Sides' : Chalerm

[webfact]

POLITICS

Amnesty 'aimed at both sides' : Chalerm

By PRAPAN JINDALERT-UDOMDEE,

PRAVIT ROJANAPHRUK

THE NATION

Veteran politician Chalerm Yoobamrung insists that Pheu Thai Party's campaign to seek an amnesty for people affected by the September 2006 coup is not aimed at just benefiting former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

Chalerm said yesterday that after the July 3 election, Pheu Thai would seek an amnesty for all sides involved in the drawn-out political conflict and would help push an amnesty law if the party became part of the next government.

"We will have to look into the details of what can and cannot be done. We will not resort to preferential treatment and won't prevent any other group from benefiting. The yellow shirts who are qualified for amnesty will get it," Chalerm said.

"We are not doing this for the Pheu Thai Party alone. Whether this is done through a public referendum will be decided after we win the election. However, our election victory is a referendum by itself," he said.

"Thaksin is one of the people affected [by the 2006 coup]. We have to find out if what he suffered can be corrected by legal means such as an amnesty or pardon. Everything should be in line with the law and legal principles."

The veteran politician said he did not think there would be any opposition to the idea of an amnesty if Pheu Thai won the election.

"We are not solving Thaksin's problem, we are aiming to solve the entire country's problem, for the majority of people. Those who are guilty should be regarded as the guilty party, but those who are innocent and persecuted wrongly should get justice," he said.

Yingluck Shinawatra, Thaksin's younger sister and Pheu Thai's candidate for prime minister, has given Chalerm the job of leading the push for an amnesty.

Thaksin has lived in self-imposed exile overseas, to escape a two year jail term handed down by the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Political Office Holders in 2008, after being convicted of a conflict of interest over a major land deal.

Assoc Prof Somchai Preechasilapakul, a lecturer at Chiang Mai University's Faculty of Law, said yesterday that he expected a lengthy discussion on who would benefit from an amnesty, adding that a degree of public opposition to an amnesty would be a key factor.

"The question is whether the red- and the yellow-shirt people who face criminal cases will be considered for an amnesty," the lecturer said.

Piphob Dhongchai, a co-leader of the yellow-shirt People's Alliance for Democracy, said yesterday that PAD leaders disagreed with the idea of an amnesty.

"Though we are facing more legal cases than those on Thaksin's side, we don't want an amnesty. We want all the sides to go through the legal process," he said.

However, the PAD co-leader would not say if the yellow shirts would take to the streets to protest against the proposed amnesty law.

Two red-shirt supporters - picked at random - were unenthusiastic about the amnesty plan floated by Pheu Thai, saying it was important to bring those responsible for the 92 deaths and the thousands of injuries last year to justice. This, they felt, was more important than Thaksin being given an amnesty.

"I don't agree with an amnesty. Those who committed wrong must be punished accordingly," red-shirt activist Jittra Kotchadej said. "Those responsible for the burnings and killings [last April and May] need to be brought to trial. If we keep granting them amnesty, then when will the military - who I believe were behind the killings - be made accountable?"

Jittra also believed the corruption verdict on Thaksin's Ratchada land deal was politically motivated and he should get an amnesty because of that.

Pratchayaa Surakamchonrot, 25, a red-shirt supporter and social-science researcher, said he partially agreed with the policy, especially when it came to granting amnesty to those convicted under a "political court" after the military coup in 2006. Pratchayaa was referring to the Constitution Court and the Supreme Court's section for political-office holders, which he suspected were biased.

As for those responsible for the suppression of both the red and yellow shirts, he said they should not be granted an amnesty, but brought to trial.

"It should be handled according to evidence," Pratchayaa said.

He said while the proposed amnesty was controversial, it was unlikely to sway those who either support or oppose Pheu Thai because their minds were already made up. "Those who hate [Thaksin and Pheu Thai] will continue to hate and vice versa," he said.

-- The Nation 2011-05-24

[virtualtraveller]

Rather than an amnesty plan to bring about reconciliation Mr Chalerm, how about a 'justice plan' to bring about reconciliation and strengthen governance. If Peua Thai were pledging to speedily put on trial all parties involved in political misdemeanours since 2006, including the coup generals (by re-writing an article of the 2007 constitution), and sending to jail those who seized the airport 30 months ago, I'm sure you would get a lot more votes. Unfortunately he has a snivelling leader who lacks any humility, unwilling to even accept he did some criminal things, and unwilling to even spend a week in jail to facilitate his pardon.

[KKvampire]

An amnesty for who? The convicted corrupt , the murderers, those who incited violence?

This is all about an amnesty for their own Thug Buddies and a politician who runs away from his country rather than face down the charges he denies. Maybe some of the thai electorate will buy it, " buy" being the apt verb.

Edited May 24, 2011 by KKvampire

[rubl]

"I don't agree with an amnesty. Those who committed wrong must be punished accordingly," red-shirt activist Jittra Kotchadej said. "Those responsible for the burnings and killings [last April and May] need to be brought to trial. If we keep granting them amnesty, then when will the military - who I believe were behind the killings - be made accountable?"

Maybe k. Jittra should also have added 'if we grant amnesty, then when will those behind the burnings be made accountable

[hawksway]

What is at issue here is not just about a change in the political order, but importantly to demonstrate that those convicted of offences can accept the punishment metered out to them, irrespective to their rank in life.

There is a great reluctance in Thailand to accept responsibility for any wrong doing, Neither is there much remorse. Thailand has a culture of fleeing from the Law be it from road accidents or in the case of the Former Prime Minister from Justice by going abroad. Those who flee from justice should be additiionally charged with that offence and serve longer periods of sentence.

The acceptance of the Law - crime and punishment - is essential to establishing this Third World Country as a modern functioning democracy - Currently it's a long way behind that.

[Pi Sek]

An amnesty for who? The convicted corrupt , the murderers, those who incited violence?

This is all about an amnesty for their own Thug Buddies and a politician who runs away from his country rather than face down the charges he denies. Maybe some of the thai electorate will buy it, " buy" being the apt verb.

"sell" might be a more suitable one!

[notobnoxious]

And an amnesty for Gun Totting Sons also?

[Soupdragon]

What is at issue here is not just about a change in the political order, but importantly to demonstrate that those convicted of offences can accept the punishment metered out to them, irrespective to their rank in life.

There is a great reluctance in Thailand to accept responsibility for any wrong doing, Neither is there much remorse. Thailand has a culture of fleeing from the Law be it from road accidents or in the case of the Former Prime Minister from Justice by going abroad. Those who flee from justice should be additiionally charged with that offence and serve longer periods of sentence.

The acceptance of the Law - crime and punishment - is essential to establishing this Third World Country as a modern functioning democracy - Currently it's a long way behind that.

Well said.

[DP25]

"We are not doing this for the Pheu Thai Party alone. Whether this is done through a public referendum will be decided after we win the election. However, our election victory is a referendum by itself,"

lolololol

There is no chance they will ever hold a public referendum on whether to pardon Thaksin. That would require a majority of the voters to approve, which they don't have a chance of getting. If they manage to squeak in to power, it will be as a minority coalition government, and they will ram the pardon through regardless even if 2/3rds of the population are against it

[BlackJack]

one giant step for mankind

two giant steps sideways

three giant steps backwards

ya gotta luv this place

[hyperdimension]

Will Amsterdam drop his application to the International Criminal Court to investigate crimes against humanity? If so, how sincere were he and the red shirts when they were crying about dead people?

Will removing all criticism of the Abhisit-led government from Amsterdam's web site be part of the deal? If so, it would show that all his gobbledegook writings were bargaining chips.

The ones who lose out are the dead (as they cannot be resurrected), families of the dead, those who lost their jobs, and businesses who've cumulatively lost income. It's the people who are probably not going to be part of an amnesty deal in which the elites settle each others' differences and kiss and make-up.

Edited May 24, 2011 by hyperdimension

[rubl]

Will Amsterdam drop his application to the International Criminal Court to investigate crimes against humanity? If so, how sincere were he and the red shirts when they were crying about dead people?

Will removing all criticism of the Abhisit-led government from Amsterdam's web site be part of the deal? If so, it would show that all his gobbledegook writings were bargaining chips.

The ones who lose out are the dead (as they cannot be resurrected), families of the dead, those who lost their jobs, and businesses who've cumulatively lost income. It's the people who are probably not going to be part of an amnesty deal in which the elites settle each others' differences and kiss and make-up.

Robert A. didn't get the message on Amnesty yet it seems. He's still at it

On May 19th a young Libyan novelist writes words that have profound meaning for those in Bangkok have watched with horror the impunity of Abhisit and the Thai army. I urge everyone to read Hisham Matar’s op/ed the Times of London, and I quote the following form this moving piece entitled “Justice satisfies a deeper revenge. ....”

http://robertamsterdam.com/thailand/

[Crushdepth]

What is at issue here is not just about a change in the political order, but importantly to demonstrate that those convicted of offences can accept the punishment metered out to them, irrespective to their rank in life.

There is a great reluctance in Thailand to accept responsibility for any wrong doing, Neither is there much remorse. Thailand has a culture of fleeing from the Law be it from road accidents or in the case of the Former Prime Minister from Justice by going abroad. Those who flee from justice should be additiionally charged with that offence and serve longer periods of sentence.

The acceptance of the Law - crime and punishment - is essential to establishing this Third World Country as a modern functioning democracy - Currently it's a long way behind that.

Fully agree.

[OzMick]

one giant step for mankind

two giant steps sideways

three giant steps backwards

ya gotta luv this place

Is that a waltz?

[OzMick]

I, for one, would be glad to see an amnesty for Khun Thaksin and his red-shirt agitators. Of course, it would have to be posthumous.

[jayboy]

What is at issue here is not just about a change in the political order, but importantly to demonstrate that those convicted of offences can accept the punishment metered out to them, irrespective to their rank in life.

There is a great reluctance in Thailand to accept responsibility for any wrong doing, Neither is there much remorse. Thailand has a culture of fleeing from the Law be it from road accidents or in the case of the Former Prime Minister from Justice by going abroad. Those who flee from justice should be additiionally charged with that offence and serve longer periods of sentence.

The acceptance of the Law - crime and punishment - is essential to establishing this Third World Country as a modern functioning democracy - Currently it's a long way behind that.

Clearly nothing here with one could disagree, except that some of the greatest crimes have not been charged at all because they were committed by members of an untouchable elite which when necessary manipulated or directed the judicial system.The list is long of these crimes - illegal coups, murder of Southern Muslims, murder of unarmed civilians in Bangkok etc etc.

[rubl]

What is at issue here is not just about a change in the political order, but importantly to demonstrate that those convicted of offences can accept the punishment metered out to them, irrespective to their rank in life.

There is a great reluctance in Thailand to accept responsibility for any wrong doing, Neither is there much remorse. Thailand has a culture of fleeing from the Law be it from road accidents or in the case of the Former Prime Minister from Justice by going abroad. Those who flee from justice should be additiionally charged with that offence and serve longer periods of sentence.

The acceptance of the Law - crime and punishment - is essential to establishing this Third World Country as a modern functioning democracy - Currently it's a long way behind that.

Clearly nothing here with one could disagree, except that some of the greatest crimes have not been charged at all because they were committed by members of an untouchable elite which when necessary manipulated or directed the judicial system.The list is long of these crimes - illegal coups, murder of Southern Muslims, murder of unarmed civilians in Bangkok etc etc.

Before continuing with the 'etc., etc.' I'd like to insert some crimes maybe not committed by 'elite', like 'disrupting an international meeting', 'lobbing grenades on police/army/civilians', 'torching buildings and city halls'. Now let the 'etc., etc.' follow.

We only talk about the 2006 - now period for which PTP ponders an amnesty. That means of course the exclusion of 'murder of southern Muslims' under PM Thaksin (Krue Se Mosque and Tak Bai incidents in 2004). That part of 'list of crimes' should be removed for this topic

[dominique355]

Let's be honest about the intentions. All Phuea Thai and Yingluck want is a whitewashing of Thaksin. Since this is a bit too much for moist Thais to swallow, they conveniently include a few more thugs into a general amnesty to cover up their real intentions.

It will be interesting and amusing to see how they try to manipulate people and cover up their real intentions.

One thing seems to be clear already: Only their fellow politicians will be included. "Normal" people, ordinary criminals have nothing to hope, not even those, who are the only real political prisoners. (I think we all know what I mean.)

[jayboy]

What is at issue here is not just about a change in the political order, but importantly to demonstrate that those convicted of offences can accept the punishment metered out to them, irrespective to their rank in life.

There is a great reluctance in Thailand to accept responsibility for any wrong doing, Neither is there much remorse. Thailand has a culture of fleeing from the Law be it from road accidents or in the case of the Former Prime Minister from Justice by going abroad. Those who flee from justice should be additiionally charged with that offence and serve longer periods of sentence.

The acceptance of the Law - crime and punishment - is essential to establishing this Third World Country as a modern functioning democracy - Currently it's a long way behind that.

Clearly nothing here with one could disagree, except that some of the greatest crimes have not been charged at all because they were committed by members of an untouchable elite which when necessary manipulated or directed the judicial system.The list is long of these crimes - illegal coups, murder of Southern Muslims, murder of unarmed civilians in Bangkok etc etc.

Before continuing with the 'etc., etc.' I'd like to insert some crimes maybe not committed by 'elite', like 'disrupting an international meeting', 'lobbing grenades on police/army/civilians', 'torching buildings and city halls'. Now let the 'etc., etc.' follow.

We only talk about the 2006 - now period for which PTP ponders an amnesty. That means of course the exclusion of 'murder of southern Muslims' under PM Thaksin (Krue Se Mosque and Tak Bai incidents in 2004). That part of 'list of crimes' should be removed for this topic

I'm not sure disrupting an international meeting is a crime.Frankly I find your comments on redshirt activism a bit naive.May as well charge the Paris citizens for storming the Bastille - you have rather lost the plot mate.

It doesn't matter whether there is an amnesty before or after 2006.The Thai army is not accountable for its crimes, and therefore I guess is indifferent to an amnesty.

[rubl]

I'm not sure disrupting an international meeting is a crime.Frankly I find your comments on redshirt activism a bit naive.May as well charge the Paris citizens for storming the Bastille - you have rather lost the plot mate.

It doesn't matter whether there is an amnesty before or after 2006.The Thai army is not accountable for its crimes, and therefore I guess is indifferent to an amnesty.

I'm aware my comments on red-shirt activities are a bit naive. That's because I still believe that only a minor percentage of UDD leaders and some others are really involved. Most red-shirts have a valid cause, but have been sidetracked with 'get Thaksin back', and were used as cannon fodder. Some still jailed upcountry awaiting trial, while their leaders strut around.

As for the amnesty, 'if' it will, it will be after 2006, not before I think To say it doesn't matter what period the amnesty should encompass is truly naive, you lost it a bit there my friend

[samurai]

We only talk about the 2006 - now period for which PTP ponders an amnesty. That means of course the exclusion of 'murder of southern Muslims' under PM Thaksin (Krue Se Mosque and Tak Bai incidents in 2004). That part of 'list of crimes' should be removed for this topic

The army people responsible for that had already their day in court.

[rubl]

We only talk about the 2006 - now period for which PTP ponders an amnesty. That means of course the exclusion of 'murder of southern Muslims' under PM Thaksin (Krue Se Mosque and Tak Bai incidents in 2004). That part of 'list of crimes' should be removed for this topic

The army people responsible for that had already their day in court.

Yes love, Gen. Surayud even apologized. Still totally off topic as 'Amnesty aimed at both sides' only covers 2006 till now.

[OzMick]

What is at issue here is not just about a change in the political order, but importantly to demonstrate that those convicted of offences can accept the punishment metered out to them, irrespective to their rank in life.

There is a great reluctance in Thailand to accept responsibility for any wrong doing, Neither is there much remorse. Thailand has a culture of fleeing from the Law be it from road accidents or in the case of the Former Prime Minister from Justice by going abroad. Those who flee from justice should be additiionally charged with that offence and serve longer periods of sentence.

The acceptance of the Law - crime and punishment - is essential to establishing this Third World Country as a modern functioning democracy - Currently it's a long way behind that.

Clearly nothing here with one could disagree, except that some of the greatest crimes have not been charged at all because they were committed by members of an untouchable elite which when necessary manipulated or directed the judicial system.The list is long of these crimes - illegal coups, murder of Southern Muslims, murder of unarmed civilians in Bangkok etc etc.

Before continuing with the 'etc., etc.' I'd like to insert some crimes maybe not committed by 'elite', like 'disrupting an international meeting', 'lobbing grenades on police/army/civilians', 'torching buildings and city halls'. Now let the 'etc., etc.' follow.

We only talk about the 2006 - now period for which PTP ponders an amnesty. That means of course the exclusion of 'murder of southern Muslims' under PM Thaksin (Krue Se Mosque and Tak Bai incidents in 2004). That part of 'list of crimes' should be removed for this topic

I'm not sure disrupting an international meeting is a crime.Frankly I find your comments on redshirt activism a bit naive.May as well charge the Paris citizens for storming the Bastille - you have rather lost the plot mate.

It doesn't matter whether there is an amnesty before or after 2006.The Thai army is not accountable for its crimes, and therefore I guess is indifferent to an amnesty.

Your comparison to the storming of the Bastille is invalid; the stormers won, and history is written by the winners and not by losers. If the red-shirts had won, they may have been heroes, but you can take my word that in 20 years they will be remembered as a bunch of mercenary hicks with over-inflated ideas of their public support.

[tlansford]

"I don't agree with an amnesty. Those who committed wrong must be punished accordingly," red-shirt activist Jittra Kotchadej said. "Those responsible for the burnings and killings [last April and May] need to be brought to trial. If we keep granting them amnesty, then when will the military - who I believe were behind the killings - be made accountable?"

Maybe k. Jittra should also have added 'if we grant amnesty, then when will those behind the burnings be made accountable

If by burnings, you mean Central World, then (regardless of the amnesty question) would say that it was understandable that the protesters set fire to Central World at the end of the protests. Don't confuse that statement with condoning the arson, just making the point that, as a symbol, Central World was a likely target - 90% of the Thai population can't afford to do much more than breath the air inside that mall. And the mall reopened 7 months later and is doing just fine, thank you very much. The same can't be said for the people killed.

IMO, the acts of arson and the killings are not at all in the same category.

I've said before that it is the responsibility of the government to not use lethal force against its own citizens, and that was not the case last year.

Tom

[whybother]

...

I've said before that it is the responsibility of the government to not use lethal force against its own citizens, and that was not the case last year.

Tom

Do you think it should be the responsibility of "peaceful protesters" not to use lethal force against the police/army?

[baboon]

Clearly nothing here with one could disagree, except that some of the greatest crimes have not been charged at all because they were committed by members of an untouchable elite which when necessary manipulated or directed the judicial system.The list is long of these crimes - illegal coups, murder of Southern Muslims, murder of unarmed civilians in Bangkok etc etc.

I thank you very much.Well said!

[webfact]

Democrat Party to Urge Pheu Thai to Clarify Stance on Amnesty

The Democrat Party is urging the Pheu Thai Party to clarify its amnesty law amendment plan that it will carry out if it is elected as government.

Democrat Party Spokesperson Doctor Buranat Samutrak is urging the Pheu Thai Party to clarify its position regarding the amnesty law.

Recently, Pheu Thai's top party-list candidate Chalerm Yubamrung came out to state that the party's legal team will make changes to the amnesty law to support those affected by the September 19, 2008 coup, saying that it would pave the way in bringing back national reconciliation.

In response to the action, Buranat said that Pheu Thai's actions clearly show that the party wants to be elected as government to amend the amnesty law.

He urged Chalerm to clarify the party's stance on the issue.

Meanwhile, Buranat said that the election polls are just one of the many factors to pay attention to now that campaigning has begun.

He claimed that Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva is still ahead of the Pheu Thai's top candidate Yingluck Shinawatra in terms of leadership scores.

Buranat expressed confidence that the people of Bangkok will be able to make the right decision, just as they have trusted in the Democrat Party in the past.

In the meantime, Democrat MP candidate Boonyod Sukthinthai said that the Election Commission should closely monitor the income and expenditures of the Pheu Thai Party as well as the red-shirt group during campaigning to prevent vote-buying, as in the past, the two groups' actions showed that they are closely related.

-- Tan Network 2011-05-25

[Thaddeus]

IMO, the acts of arson and the killings are not at all in the same category.

They are if people die in the fire.

[TAWP]

I'm sure they in the end will propose that the amnesty only cover lets say 15.25 to 15.32 on a specific date - but it will cover both sides. Within that time-range.

And just by accident only a very select few in their own ranks is actually covered.

[virtualtraveller]

I'd like clarification on weather the constitution empowers a government to simply grant an amnesty willy nilly. If so, any standing government can grant an amnesty covering those among its ranks responsible for a crime. For example, why not grant an amnesty to Vatana Asavahame (Klong Dan Waste scandal), since he can direct the Puea Pandin factions to rejoin PT, just like he did 7 years ago. I though that pardon's for sentences can only be granted by the King and only after the criminal has served part of the sentence. If it was that easy there would be an uproar all us people who expect to see law and order upheld. For example, is an amnesty for those who knowingly burnt down Bangkok appropriate, they didn't have to burn anything to make their political statement.

It's all hot air and any amnesty bill is likely to be fraught with delays, time consuming debate, resistance from the senate, bickering among the coalition, it's really an unrealistic proposal that few realise is difficult to bring to fruition, besides it really ought to be done on the results of referendum.