NanLaew Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Lets talk about burning the American Flag in America and see how this compares with insulting the King of Thailand in Thailand. The King, I believe, as many before him, deserves respect and admiration. I cant say the same for what the flag represents. I can remember a time in the southern states when laws made black people sit in the back of a bus...until it was realised most accidents happened at the front of the bus..What happened then..you guessed it. Put the black people in the front. People in glass houses should definitely not throw stones. Wow. It's rare to see a post so completely off on so many levels. Certainly top marks for way off topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) Some people (eg Nisa) are making posts that are almost like a caricature of propaganda and with numerous and large holes in their arguments -- but it's not possible to address those flaws... (That's not to say everything they say is wrong by any means.) Oh, well. Edited May 27, 2011 by SteeleJoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanLaew Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 ... A lot of us know about the book that basically trashes the royal family here. It's not a particularly well written or well researched book. ... In that regard, it's a bit like Private Dancer or even The Da Vinci Code... Still, I am dusting off my copy for a refreshing re-read on the patio this evening. No offense but methinks you either haven't read the book or aren't very knowledgeable about it. No offense taken Joe, but I bought the book about 6 years ago and I have just taken it off the shelf for another re-read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Lets talk about burning the American Flag in America and see how this compares with insulting the King of Thailand in Thailand. The King, I believe, as many before him, deserves respect and admiration. I cant say the same for what the flag represents. I can remember a time in the southern states when laws made black people sit in the back of a bus...until it was realised most accidents happened at the front of the bus..What happened then..you guessed it. Put the black people in the front. People in glass houses should definitely not throw stones. Wow. It's rare to see a post so completely off on so many levels. Certainly top marks for way off topic! Indeed. And a breathtaking example of historical revisionism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanLaew Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) As far as I am aware there is no law in Thailand preventing anyone from saying or writing what they want about Abhisit (presidential equivalent) except laws that also apply in other countries such as slander or libel. The problem is it is very difficult to find an equivalent comparison in terms of the love and reverence the vast majority of Thais feel towards His Majesty and the institution. What you may see as backwards or outdated, the Thais hold in great esteem in terms of being proud, unique and representative of the greatness of Thailand. His Majesty (past and present) is somebody who can always be trusted to look after Thailand and its people as well as be above all the pettiness that we see in politics all over the world. The only way to really relate even remotely to this is to consider how a parent looks after and protects their children and those children having an unconditional love and trust that their parent(s) will always protect them and never lead them down the wrong path. The King is the father of Thailand and its people as is the Queen the mother. There's some recommended reading material on this very potent subject of the 'unconditional love' as it applies in this debate. However, it's banned as the subject of the OP ignored at the cost of his personal freedom. What was that hit by Living Colour again....'The Cult of Personality' yes? All about the phenomenon that involves psychology and politics. Edited May 27, 2011 by NanLaew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader79 Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) These laws will change eventually, it is absolutely inevitable. Exactement, lese ce majeste is more like it. Edited May 27, 2011 by crusader79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanlic Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Whether we think Thai law is right, wrong, antiquated or whatever is irrelevant it is the law and vistors, expats etc should respect it. Thais love their King it part of their make up and how they are raised and don't give a hoot when the last person was arrested in the Netherlands for this offence. To a Thai is you insult your Sovereign you are nothing but a low life. You don't have to write a book to find that out just try saying something offensive about HRH to any Thai anywhere and you will get exactly the same reaction from each and everyone of them. This guy knows the law so why write a book or put himself in a situation where he could be arrested? The answer to that is simple. Controversy, brings fame, equals money! This guy is probably doing cartwheels as he knows with the world watching he isn't going to spend any length of time in jail. and National news soon becomes International news. I'd lock him up and throw away the key and make the next 2 bit would be writer/journalist think twice about using the law for personal gain. L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 ... A lot of us know about the book that basically trashes the royal family here. It's not a particularly well written or well researched book. ... In that regard, it's a bit like Private Dancer or even The Da Vinci Code... Still, I am dusting off my copy for a refreshing re-read on the patio this evening. No offense but methinks you either haven't read the book or aren't very knowledgeable about it. No offense taken Joe, but I bought the book about 6 years ago and I have just taken it off the shelf for another re-read. Fair enough. I am just surprised that you'd equate it with Private Dancer or The Da Vinci Code in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Did anybody READ the story? The story says he is a Thai. Sure he has gained American nationality, but it's not like we are talking about an American expat or tourist here: "Joe is a 54 year old resident of Nakhon Ratchasima Province. He is Thai by birth but has lived in Colarado, America for 30 years." Anyway, if you are running a forum you really need to watch it closely and moderate when needed. 'IF" he is an American than he is an American the same as any American who was born here or whose parent's parent's parent;s were born in the US. Point being is there are no levels of being an American in terms of being held in another country. Fox News will eat a story like this up if true. However you make a valid point and the story should say "Thai American" as the assumption is he is an expat or tourist when in fact there was nothing really in the story (that I recall) that actually said he obtained American Citizenship. Just because he lived in Colorado for 30-years doesn't mean he became a citizen. I believe lots of people stay in America legally for very long periods but never become actual citizens. Para 1/ begins "A US citizen has been charged in Thailand..........." Para 2/ begins "Thai-born Lerpong Wichaikhammat, 54, was arrested......." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 What would you say if the US brought in a law that you couldn't say anything bad about the president (whoever he happened to be)? The problem with the law is how it is applied. Even writing a work of fiction talking about an imaginary prince is enough to put you in jail. Having respect is one thing. Not being able to discuss the issues is completely different. Totally agree with this sentiment. The article (and the law) state that the man is a US citizen and that fact may be a legal reality but we ought to bear in mind that this man is actually a Thai by birth, so we could refer to him as an "Americanized" or "Westernized" Thai. If more Thais were to become westernized or have the privilege of being "de-processed" or should I say mentally liberated from "Thai logic" (an oxymoron) and an inherited ignorance and predisposition to never questioning authority or the myopic Thai system then we'd see more of this kind of activity. The suppression of freedom of speech would have to be one of the most debilitating and dictatorial conditions imposed on any modern society. This is nothing new actually and if you'd care to look up and read even part of the American Declaration of Independence written way back in 1776 then you'd see how passionate those freedom of expression forefathers were a couple and half centuries ago. To all those saying that this country belongs to the Thais and as guests we should respect their laws I say OK,.. to a point that's fair (provided those laws are fair and balanced and show worthiness of being respected as respect is a privilege and not a right,... it must be earned),... but this guy whilst being legally a US citizen is actually a Thai countryman which is an inalienable right by birth no matter what any myopic law or local opinion may say to the contrary. I say give the guy respect for speaking up and pointing to facts that he felt worthy of a public forum. It takes guts to resist or usurp authority and this guy has shown such determination. If you Google "jailed blogger" you'll see a lot of Egyptian, Syrian and Lybian activists sent to jail for similar outspoken publications. Now just look at what's happened in those countries recently. Problem is though that not enough of the poor guy's birthright countrymen would have enough perspective or collective determinism to be bothered to create any such similar national swing to personal liberty simply because of the inherited ignorance and Mai Pen Rai culture that prevails. Hopefully they will throw him in jail and then someone can send an impassioned email to Avaaz pleading for assistance and the guy will be sent a "get out of jail free" card and that might begin to wake up a few other university activists ad the rest of the world to further exposition of this suppression of right to free civil speech! " It takes guts to resist or usurp authority.............." It would have taken a tiny amount of intelligence to do it from the safety of the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philhal2 Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 forbidding something just gives me more urges to do it ... Has a useless display of bravado exposed an exceptionally low IQ ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJIC Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) In fact, in England, I'm not even sure they (England's Royals) are able to do much now except to try and protect the royal image from all the gossip, paparazzi and unethical reporters. I admit to being an English Royalist and think highly of Queen Elizabeth and even love the goofs that the 90 year old Prince Philip says or does, no matter what the press says. Republicans will hate the Monarchy no matter what, but it was said on TV during the recent Royal Wedding that 4 out of 5 Britains still want a Monarchy. Remember the National sorrow when the "Queen Mum" died at 87? When Queen Elizabeth say in 1992, "1992 is not a year I shall look back on with undiluted pleasure. In the words of one of my more sympathetic correspondents, it has turned out to be an 'annus horribilis'"., it did not demean her, but brought her the support and good wishes of her people thoughout the world. Queen Mother died at 101, in her sleep! Edited May 27, 2011 by MAJIC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crushdepth Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Linking to false information is a crime? Better turn that internet thing off. But before you do, better arrest every politician in Thailand because I don't think many political sites are going to pass the 'truth' test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiench Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Every country has their way of doing things. If this is how Thailand does it and anyone who doesn't like it, nobody is asking you to stay. The guy is probably arrested and given some kind of warning or worst case senerio...short jail term and fine. In Malaysia, you'd probably disapear from earth before trial begins. In places like Cambodia or Myanmar, you'd probably be dead during arrest. In fact, they also send you to jail if you insult someone in South Korea. So what's the big deal for this joker to get arrested here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nisa Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 The problem is it is very difficult to find an equivalent comparison in terms of the love and reverence the vast majority of Thais feel towards His Majesty and the institution. What you may see as backwards or outdated, the Thais hold in great esteem in terms of being proud, unique and representative of the greatness of Thailand. His Majesty (past and present) is somebody who can always be trusted to look after Thailand and its people as well as be above all the pettiness that we see in politics all over the world. The only way to really relate even remotely to this is to consider how a parent looks after and protects their children and those children having an unconditional love and trust that their parent(s) will always protect them and never lead them down the wrong path. The King is the father of Thailand and its people as is the Queen the mother. I think what you have stated above is absolutely correct, but the very fact that it is true makes the current LM laws even less needed. Any person who truly criticized or disrespected the King would be insane... there is no need to throw them in Jail or to censor their words, the Thai people themselves would ostracize the person if the comments they made truly disrespected the King. Agree with your concept but consider people in general are highly against murder and stealing and if there were no laws people certainly would deal with those who committed these acts on their own but there are reasons we have laws ... including that idealistically it is to uphold the will of the people in a fair and equal manner. Obviously limiting free speech (which all nations do to some extent) is generally not a good idea. However, I personally believe this particular instance is a very small price to pay for what the Royal Institution brings to Thailand and its people. I have no doubt in the not very distant future the Lese Majeste laws will be changed or at minimum significantly less charges of such crimes as the political climate since Thaksin has become one where politicians are making these accusations as a way to accuse opponents of not being Thais at heart. Thais speculate and worry about things all the time, verbally with other Thais, that if done in a newspaper would bring charges. The law was never meant to be so broadly interpreted and used for political gain. His Majesty has stated publicly that he should not be above criticism. The law is really about showing respect for a sacred institution. So, I have problems with the enforcement or accusations the law leaves open for interpretation but have no issue with a law demanding this institution be held in the highest respect. I also truly love the fact it limits complaining from the select constantly complaining foreigners in Thailand at least on one subject they have no business complaining about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimi007 Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 "Thai-born Lerpong Wichaikhammat" sure doesn't sound American... You don't know much about the USA! Thai Town in Los Angeles California has the largest Thai population outside of SE Asia. The first Thai immigrants came to the USA in 1830. See link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_American Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pampal Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Does he have a Thai passport and did he use it to enter Thailand? If so under International law he is Thai and not American. If he entered using his American Passport, then he is deemed to be American. Why would a Thai national even consider to enter Thailand on his American passport.Oh,maybe he loves to do visa runs. To avoid Military Service and enjoy US Consular assistance among many other reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prasannas Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Should respect the Royal Family......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TongueThaied Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I have no sympathy to be honest. A lot of us know about the book that basically trashes the royal family here. It's not a particularly well written or well researched book. This guy obviously sees himself as some sort of activist, why else would he be sitting up there in Isaan on using his blog to encourage people to read this trash? Now he's an activist, he can experience jail time like many other activists around the world. Pity he didn't take up a worthy cause, isn't it? Wow, I'm thrilled to see you have no use for freedom of speech, the Internet and/or the press. If we lock up everybody who says/publishes something with which anybody else disagrees, we would all be locked up -- including you. You, for what you just wrote! I am AFRAID to say more. As for my comments on the posted article, well, I don't know if I have a comment, but if I had a comment, I would be afraid to comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webfact Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Thai-US citizen arrested over link to banned book By PRAVIT ROJANAPHRUK THE NATION Published on May 28, 2011 A Thai-born dual Thai-US citizen and passport holder was arrested and detained without bail on Thursday for allegedly putting up a computer link to the content of the banned book "The King Never Smiles" on his blog. Joe Gordon, 54, who asked that his Thai name not be revealed, told a Prachatai online newspaper reporter yesterday morning that he was having difficulties adjusting to Bangkok Remand Prison and that he was worried about the cleanliness of the drinking water. It was confirmed that a US Embassy staff member visited Gordon yesterday morning at the prison but The Nation was not able to reach the press officer assigned to comment officially. Gordon, who had been living in Nakhon Ratchasima province, returned to Thailand about a year ago for health reasons. Prachatai quoted him as saying he had lived in North Carolina for 30 years. He denied committing lese majeste on the Internet. Gordon was arrested and taken from Nakhon Ratchasima to Bangkok by the Department of Special Investigation. It was the latest in a spate of arrests for lese majeste over recent months, most visibly involving red-shirt leaders. Readers of Prachatai reacted in different ways to the arrest. One reader said the refusal to grant bail to Gordon was too severe. Another reader said more Thais would be curious about the content of Paul Handley's book "The King Never Smiles" as a result, while another said Gordon "ought not to be regarded as a Thai" for what he had allegedly done. -- The Nation 2011-05-28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovetotravel Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Every country has their way of doing things. If this is how Thailand does it and anyone who doesn't like it, nobody is asking you to stay. The guy is probably arrested and given some kind of warning or worst case senerio...short jail term and fine. In Malaysia, you'd probably disapear from earth before trial begins. In places like Cambodia or Myanmar, you'd probably be dead during arrest. In fact, they also send you to jail if you insult someone in South Korea. So what's the big deal for this joker to get arrested here? I guess it's not only Thailand that has "issues" with freedom of speech: http://edition.cnn.c...dex.html?hpt=T2 Singapore (CNN) -- A Singapore court on Friday rejected an appeal by a British author against a conviction for contempt of court over a book that criticized the justice system. Author Alan Shadrake was put on trial by the government of Singapore for his book on the death penalty in Singapore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Obviously limiting free speech (which all nations do to some extent) is generally not a good idea. However, I personally believe this particular instance is a very small price to pay for what the Royal Institution brings to Thailand and its people...His Majesty has stated publicly that he should not be above criticism. The law is really about showing respect for a sacred institution. So, I have problems with the enforcement or accusations the law leaves open for interpretation but have no issue with a law demanding this institution be held in the highest respect... Why must this price be paid? Without LM, the Royal Institution would not or could not bring the same to Thailand its people? And if HM majesty has wisely and admirably stated that he should not be above criticism (and I know that He has), why must such things be banned? Wihout the law, sufficient respect wouldn't be shown? If I'm not mistaken, you've stated or implied repeatedly that the respect and love is unbounded, universal and unconditional etc, -- why must people be threatened with jail to ensure the respect? In actual fact, my position on LM is not that far from yours. Nor is my view on the value and necessity of the Royal Institution. But my reasons behind my position differ somewhat significantly (and are far realistic and pragmatic and not so based on emotive rhetoric and such). And your reasoning -- Thais won't stand for it so they must be forced not to do it -- doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Every country has their way of doing things. If this is how Thailand does it and anyone who doesn't like it, nobody is asking you to stay. The guy is probably arrested and given some kind of warning or worst case senerio...short jail term and fine. In Malaysia, you'd probably disapear from earth before trial begins. In places like Cambodia or Myanmar, you'd probably be dead during arrest. In fact, they also send you to jail if you insult someone in South Korea. So what's the big deal for this joker to get arrested here? I guess it's not only Thailand that has "issues" with freedom of speech: http://edition.cnn.c...dex.html?hpt=T2 Singapore (CNN) -- A Singapore court on Friday rejected an appeal by a British author against a conviction for contempt of court over a book that criticized the justice system. Author Alan Shadrake was put on trial by the government of Singapore for his book on the death penalty in Singapore. Oh, and here we were all saying that ONLY Thailand limits freedom of speech (not China, N. Korea, etc etc etc). Guess it's OK then. Never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Posts baiting members into breaking the rules by posting links or content from illegal material has been deleted. Do it again and I will suspend you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilf Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 It shows why we allow discussion of the LM laws, but not a discussion of the Royal Family itself. Keep that in mind when posting. We are all guests in this country. We must respect the rules and laws of the host country whether we agree or not. It is better to be safe and free than to be sorry and in jail... unless one enjoys fish head soup 2 times a day, every day. :jap: what sort of fish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MILT Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I have no sympathy to be honest. A lot of us know about the book that basically trashes the royal family here. It's not a particularly well written or well researched book. This guy obviously sees himself as some sort of activist, why else would he be sitting up there in Isaan on using his blog to encourage people to read this trash? Now he's an activist, he can experience jail time like many other activists around the world. Pity he didn't take up a worthy cause, isn't it? I too have seen the book. It is trash! Highly inaccurate as well as some DVD's CD's floating around being distributed by a certain color shirt people showing very disrespectful acts and obviously CG's being used. Sad state of affairs these days. I don't agree with the LM law but I see why it is in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Appreciate the "other aspect to the story" provided by the real news media that is missing from the OP blog entry. Is the Thai American also "denying" the first accusation? I agree. That puts a lot more 'teeth' into it. No, it is still toothless. What we have is an allegation. The charge has not been proven in court and the two of you are far too quick to accept the government's position. Don't you find it odd that when charges are brought, there is a virtual blackout on news reports as to the case? No reporting is given on the defense or the prosecution arguments. How can people so quick to doubt the police and official explanations of deaths in Thailand, be so quick to accept the official position in this matter? Don't you find it odd that the number of lese majeste cases has inflated since the military coup and the fight to topple Thaksin? How is it that between 1990 and 2005, it is reported there were only approx. 65 cases in those 15 years, but since 2005, over the past 5 1/2 years there have been 400 cases reported? Perhaps the allegations might be valid, but one will never know since the facts of the case as argued in court will never be presented to the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesWideOpen Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Politicians using this law to attack their foes unjustly should be dealt with more severely than somebody who actually breaks the law in my opinion. To me this is 10x more disrespectful. Who knows if it's unjust or not? It can't even be discussed. I am always astounded as why Thai Visa runs these articles. Any reasonable discussion on this issue is generally deleted by the moderators, using the vague threat of the very same laws that supposedly are being discussed....I strongly suggest that TV not run any stories about LM laws if they are that terrified of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuian Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Why must this price be paid? Without LM, the Royal Institution would not or could not bring the same to Thailand its people? And if HM majesty has wisely and admirably stated that he should not be above criticism (and I know that He has), why must such things be banned? Wihout the law, sufficient respect wouldn't be shown? .......edited to shorten...... What you as many others don't seem to get, that the rule, is the rule, HM hasn't made it and obviously has not much influence on it, see the records of pardons! As I have written before, follow the rules and you'll befine - travel to Iran or Saudi Arabia and just sit on the "holy book" or bring just a dog into a mosque - you'll see! Even you run the red lights in the middle of the night, no traffic at all - you breeched the rule and will be fined, simple as that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Why must this price be paid? Without LM, the Royal Institution would not or could not bring the same to Thailand its people? And if HM majesty has wisely and admirably stated that he should not be above criticism (and I know that He has), why must such things be banned? Wihout the law, sufficient respect wouldn't be shown? .......edited to shorten...... What you as many others don't seem to get... I do get that. I wrote nothing that contradicts it or implies otherwise. As can be seen I am addressing Nisa's post. Context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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