American Arrested In Thailand For Linking To A Website From His Blog

[marshall stanley]

"Often times the law is an ass"

-Oliver Wendell Holmes, first chief justice of the Supreme Court.

[a99az]

Easy way round this, set up a blog under a different name and don't post from your own computer.

[dunkin2012]

Appreciate the "other aspect to the story" provided by the real news media that is missing from the OP blog entry.

Is the Thai American also "denying" the first accusation?

I agree. That puts a lot more 'teeth' into it.

No, it is still toothless. What we have is an allegation. The charge has not been proven in court and the two of you are far too quick to accept the government's position.

Don't you find it odd that when charges are brought, there is a virtual blackout on news reports as to the case? No reporting is given on the defense or the prosecution arguments.

How can people so quick to doubt the police and official explanations of deaths in Thailand, be so quick to accept the official position in this matter?

Don't you find it odd that the number of lese majeste cases has inflated since the military coup and the fight to topple Thaksin? How is it that between 1990 and 2005, it is reported there were only approx. 65 cases in those 15 years, but since 2005, over the past 5 1/2 years there have been 400 cases reported? Perhaps the allegations might be valid, but one will never know since the facts of the case as argued in court will never be presented to the public.

Wow.. thanks for those figures!!!! roughly 6 times more.

the facts will never be presented......? Many things they don't know! Perhaps we know more than the people here. Cos' TV programs are strictly controlled. full of shi*****T. This ain't a real free world. I can say!!!

let it be! let the people,the majority choose what they want. Power of the People ...

[virtualtraveller]

What book was it? Is it unlawful to mention a banned book. Is it a crime to link to banned pages, especially if you can prove that the page hasn't been banned by following the correct procedures. This is the really ridiculous part of this law.

[dunkin2012]

Easy way round this, set up a blog under a different name and don't post from your own computer.

i know it's hard to sniff ....

but on most of the servers should record the NET traffic abide by law.

in the end, they can identify who you are from your unique IP, thru one's ISP. Dynamically. they can work it out where it is from by grouping Class A B C mostly C. 128-64 bits and only 32 bits is for C

Do it wisely. Respect others!!!!! they have rights to defense too.....

Edited May 28, 2011 by dunkin2012

[brianb1944]

forbidding something just gives me more urges to do it ...

If the urge becomes overwhelming, get your affairs in order first

[geriatrickid]

The unfortunate implication of this event is that the people bringing the charges will now drag in groups with a vested interest such as:

1. Journalist and news organizations: This will be seen as an attempt to muzzle news organizations.

2. Human Rights groups: This will be treated as a suppression of basic freedom

3. The U.S. State Department: The arrest of a U.S. citizen will result in political pressure. The last thing the Abhisit government needs now is to lose allies in the U.S. government. The upcoming election results will necessitate that thee government has foreign supporters.

4. General Tourism websites: This story will be highlighted.

Surely there is a more discrete way of addressing these situations without causing grief for Thailand? It's bad PR for the country and it is not needed now.

[whybother]

There is an interesting article in the New York Times on this case. I can't link to it though ...

[Buchholz]

Appreciate the "other aspect to the story" provided by the real news media that is missing from the OP blog entry.

Is the Thai American also "denying" the first accusation?

I agree. That puts a lot more 'teeth' into it.

No, it is still toothless. What we have is an allegation. The charge has not been proven in court and the two of you are far too quick to accept the government's position.

Don't you find it odd that when charges are brought, there is a virtual blackout on news reports as to the case? No reporting is given on the defense or the prosecution arguments.

How can people so quick to doubt the police and official explanations of deaths in Thailand, be so quick to accept the official position in this matter?

Don't you find it odd that the number of lese majeste cases has inflated since the military coup and the fight to topple Thaksin? How is it that between 1990 and 2005, it is reported there were only approx. 65 cases in those 15 years, but since 2005, over the past 5 1/2 years there have been 400 cases reported? Perhaps the allegations might be valid, but one will never know since the facts of the case as argued in court will never be presented to the public.

Quite how you managed to formulate all of that based on what was simply posted was, I'm sure, an interesting journey through your cerebrum.

How did you conclude that I (I'll speak only for myself in the reply, although Tywais might have some of the same wonderment) that I "accept the government's position?" What is the government position in this case? All I've seen reported on is the police involvement. What government official is involved?

Where are your statistics from? What was the level of Internet usage in Thailand in 1990 versus 2011?

To recap, I simply noted that there was an additional accusation now being reported on by the international media in the form of a recognized news agency that was not "reported" on by the local expat's blogging effort that served as the OP. The new accusation indicated a much higher degree of intentional involvement by the defendant than what the reader was initially led to believe by the informal, non-credentialed scribbler's entry.

And from that basic reality... you somehow extracted and created what you did. The OP's author should have you assist him in his next fictional novel.

.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Buchholz

[Emster23]

The Supreme Court of the US upheld flag burning as a freedom of speech method in 1989, fyi. Texas case of course.

Lot's of good comments here, but I do think some posters are naive at best. The rules are made here by the rich and powerful, not by the people. And laws like LM are tools for keeping the people in line.

I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it just hasn't caught on here.

I think Mr Joe got corrupted by those filthy farang ideas like equality, saying what you think, taking a stand. Too long in USA will do that.

So far as general population here goes I think of Eli Wallach in Magnificent 7: "If God had not meant for them to be sheared, he would not have made them sheep".

Earlier I copied this posting: " People go to jail all the time in the US for showing a police officer disrespect.. they call it disorderly conduct among other things. Kids are disciplined all the time in school for showing teachers disrespect." and thought "Has this person ever been to the USA? Especially about kids being disciplined in school. That doesn't happen. Here a teacher has no problem physically abusing a student who doesn't show enough "respect". In USA you can get in trouble for just touching a student.

The whole LM "respect" thing trickles down through society. People live in total fear and anxiety if they have to make a request, no matter how small or just, to their "superiors".

I agree that respect, like leadership, should be earned from the bottom up, not demanded from the top down. What do I know?

[sirchai]

It shows why we allow discussion of the LM laws, but not a discussion of the Royal Family itself. Keep that in mind when posting.

We are all guests in this country. We must respect the rules and laws of the host country whether we agree or not.

It is better to be safe and free than to be sorry and in jail... unless one enjoys fish head soup 2 times a day, every day.

:jap:

What? Fish heads serve them food then? I was pretty sure fish-heads come from the Northern part of Germany.

It's better to have fish-heads serving you fish-heads than having no water in the middle of a dessert. :jap:

[simon43]

'That book' was actually recommended reading material on my Thai Culture MA course a few years ago at Chula. (Recommended to read when not in Thailand!). And like my fellow students, I did just that when I was visiting the UK.

I found the book well-written, factual and an interesting read which has helped me to understand HM the King to a greater depth.

Did the book lessen my respect for HM? Absolutely not!!

Now, when do I go to jail???

Simon

PS - I think some posters are confusing this 'academic' book with another, more infamous book

Edited May 28, 2011 by simon43

[sirchai]

Are you sure it's safe for you to even mention the story?

King Bhumibol Adulyadej, 83, the world's longest-reigning monarch and revered as a demi-god by many Thais, has been in hospital since September 2009.

We all wish him a speedy recovery. Long Live The King. :jap::jap::jap:

[newtronbom]

While I agree with many comments here, I also disagree with many too. The point has been made that those of us that are not Thai, should not criticize. That happens to be the law too. All Thais must abide by this law or face prosecution. As guests here, why should we not be prosecuted also? It matters not, whether we agree with this law. I believe we have no right as guests, to criticize any law in this country - especially one that merely protects the image and good name of a dynasty that has done more good for their country than any of our own. It's not like this law protects human rights abuse or murder is it? I have lived here quite a while now and the Thais I know - both rich and poor - are relaxed when I am around and when talking to me. I don't comment on this subject unless asked. Sometimes not even then, depending on who I am talking to. I find that discussion on this subject is more prevalent and open amongst the highly educated. All though, have a "deep rooted" love and respect, regardless of any misgivings they may have, if any. There are many other more pressing problems here, that we could better put our energy into. Help make changes for the better that will affect thousands, not just criticize a few people. In the end, it matters not what I think or feel about this topic. I am only a guest who is grateful to be living here.

[sirchai]

Easy way round this, set up a blog under a different name and don't post from your own computer.

Use your enemies' computer.....:jap:

[geriatrickid]

Appreciate the "other aspect to the story" provided by the real news media that is missing from the OP blog entry.

Is the Thai American also "denying" the first accusation?

I agree. That puts a lot more 'teeth' into it.

No, it is still toothless. What we have is an allegation. The charge has not been proven in court and the two of you are far too quick to accept the government's position.

Don't you find it odd that when charges are brought, there is a virtual blackout on news reports as to the case? No reporting is given on the defense or the prosecution arguments.

How can people so quick to doubt the police and official explanations of deaths in Thailand, be so quick to accept the official position in this matter?

Don't you find it odd that the number of lese majeste cases has inflated since the military coup and the fight to topple Thaksin? How is it that between 1990 and 2005, it is reported there were only approx. 65 cases in those 15 years, but since 2005, over the past 5 1/2 years there have been 400 cases reported? Perhaps the allegations might be valid, but one will never know since the facts of the case as argued in court will never be presented to the public.

Quite how you managed to formulate all of that based on what was simply posted was, I'm sure, an interesting journey through your cerebrum.

How did you conclude that I (I'll speak only for myself in the reply, although Tywais might have some of the same wonderment) that I "accept the government's position?" What is the government position in this case? All I've seen reported on is the police involvement. What government official is involved?

Where are your statistics from? What was the level of Internet usage in Thailand in 1990 versus 2011?

To recap, I simply noted that there was an additional accusation now being reported on by the international media in the form of a recognized news agency that was not "reported" on by the local expat's blogging effort that served as the OP. The new accusation indicated a much higher degree of intentional involvement by the defendant than what the reader was initially led to believe by the informal, non-credentialed scribbler's entry.

And from that basic reality... you somehow extracted and created what you did. The OP's author should have you assist him in his next fictional novel.

Good gracious, you consider thinking to be a journey through the cerebrum. Well that certainly, explains some things. You object to my statements and ask several questions. Let's answer them then;

Question 1: How did you conclude that I "accept the government's position?"

Question 2: What is the government position in this case? All I've seen reported on is the police involvement.

Question 3: What government official is involved?

Answer 1: Your statement used those cute little quotation marks around a word. When used in such a manner, it indicates that the position is questionable.You wrote;

Is the Thai American also "denying" the first accusation?

In writing, this conveys that there is actually guilt.

If you wish to alter your position to that of one where someone is accused, and there are allegations, which have not been proven, and that the man is innocent until proven guilty in an open court as part of a fair judicial process and where he is allowed to confront his accusors and to examine the evidence, why then we would be in agreement and I would then gladly acknowledge your position.

Answer 2: LM cannot be prosecuted unless a the prosecutors office agrees to prosecute. The search warrant could not be executed on the accused's dwelling unless a judge signed off on the warrant. Anyone can bring a LM charge in Thailand, however the police have to make a decision as to whether or not the charge warrants an investigation. An investigation for LM in Thailand, particularly one that requires due diligence requires the signoff of the prosecutors office. In this case, this was not a random LM offense such as demonstrated by the idiot that defaced a public portrait. Rather, this was an investigation of a website and blog. The DSI sent 20 agents from Bangkok to go get the man and search his home and then bring him back to bangkok. Do you honestly believe that the police could mount such a large and expensive operation without the signoff from a government official?

Based upon the aforementioned, I have no doubt that the government was aware of this arrest and charge. Bear in mind that the Police are a government agency and when the police act they are doing so on behalf of the state. If you want me to be more specific, the Ministry of the Interior is responsible for Thailand's police forces. As such, when the police act, they do so as part of MOI.

Answer 3: I do not which government offical is responsible for this case. I'm sure with your relationships to important Thai people, you are better placed to determine the answer.

Question 4: Where are your statistics from?

Where were you last Tuesday? Dr, David Streckfuss, a Thailand-based scholar who follows lese-majeste cases closely, gave a talk at the foreign spoke to the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand and presented the numbers I cited. As well, the May 12 editorial of a local newspaper referenced the cases under the heading "A Surge in Lese Majeste Cases". If you use your friend Google, I believe you will even find several international news sources that report as follows;

397 known cases were submitted to the Criminal Court between 2006 and 2009, a 1,500 percent rise from the preceding 15 years, when cases averaged four or five a year.Of those 397 cases, 213 decisions had been handed down and 40 were pending with the Appeals Court, Nine cases were pending pending at the Supreme Court since 2005.

I believe David Streckfuss is also cited for those numbers.

I anticipate you will now claim that because you have never heard of Dr. Streckfuss, that the numbers are imaginary. I suggest that you also use Google to reassure yourself.

He is the Resident Director, CIEE Thailand at Council on International Educational Exchange and is a "go to expert" for respected news sources. One local newspaper seems to think enough of the fellow that it quotes him on the issue of LM. To my knowledge is continues to have good legal standing in Thailand.

Question 5: What was the level of Internet usage in Thailand in 1990 versus 2011?

Answer 5: I haven't the slightest clue, but I'm sure if you inquire at one of the universities someone will know.

Now, you wouldn't happen to be trying to link the surge in LM charges as being a result of increased internet use are you? Aren't you the sly fellow. That would really be grasping for straws since many of the LM charges relate to public events, for example making statements in public. One of the more notable cases arose from a student not standing for the national anthem in a cinema. Internet related LM charges are not as frequent as you might think. For example, there has only been one Facebook related LM charge and that was in April 2010. Other media sites such as Hi5 are clean. The charges of LM for the most part have political links, which then brings us back to the reason for such consternation.

I trust this answers your questions and that you understand my journey through the cerebrum as you so quaintly term it

Edited May 28, 2011 by geriatrickid

[webfact]

one off topic post deleted. Bombing of Arizona or Florida is not the topic on hand.....

[Naam]

Having respect is one thing. Not being able to discuss the issues is completely different.

what part of "this is the law in Thailand" is it you don't understand?

[SanSaiExPat]

Lets talk about burning the American Flag in America and see how this compares with insulting the King of Thailand in Thailand. The King, I believe, as many before him, deserves respect and admiration. I cant say the same for what the flag represents. I can remember a time in the southern states when laws made black people sit in the back of a bus...until it was realised most accidents happened at the front of the bus..What happened then..you guessed it. Put the black people in the front. People in glass houses should definitely not throw stones.

What the heck are you talking about? Unfortunately the American Flag gets little to no respect in America any more. People do what they will and what the want to it. Including wearing it on the butt cheek's of their blue jeans. They burn it. They urinate on it and call it "Art." You people just won't stop. Have you been to America in the last 40 years? Things have changed, son. Your example of African Americans riding on the back of the bus it totally misleading. First of all, the last time that happened was in the late 1950's, early 1960's. That was over 60 years ago!!!. Would you care to discuss what civil liberties in Thailand were like 60 years ago? I don't think so. There just isn't a parallel. What your trying to do is compare civil liberties in Thailand in 2011 with civil liberties in the United States in the 1950's and imply that there is equivalence. You are wrong about another point. You are allowed to say whatever you want about the American Flag. No one will stop you. No one will arrest you. (I might punch you in the mouth but that's a different story.) But the same can't be said about your other assertion. Under LM your not allowed to say what you think if what you think is outside of what the powers that be think you should be allowed to say. It's a very different situation. And lastly your assertion that African American's were subsequently "allowed" to ride on the front of the bus only after "whitey" realized it was safer on the back of the bus and wanted those seats for himself is just pure hokum.

[Gers1873]

forbidding something just gives me more urges to do it ...

You are absoluteyl 100% forbidden from buying me a case of malt whisky - Islay malts are my preferred choice of 'forbidden drinks'.

[whybother]

Having respect is one thing. Not being able to discuss the issues is completely different.

what part of "this is the law in Thailand" is it you don't understand?

Yes, I understand that this is the law ... and we are talking about the <not sure what I'm allowed to say here> of some laws.

Edited May 28, 2011 by whybother

[Buchholz]

You object to my statements and ask several questions. Let's answer them then;

Question 1: How did you conclude that I "accept the government's position?"

Question 2: What is the government position in this case? All I've seen reported on is the police involvement.

Question 3: What government official is involved?

Answer 1: Your statement used those cute little quotation marks around a word. When used in such a manner, it indicates that the position is questionable.You wrote;

Is the Thai American also "denying" the first accusation?

In writing, this conveys that there is actually guilt.

OR... simply that it was a means for highlighting a previously unknown aspect. The other italicized "denying" was indicative of less plausibility to the new accusation as opposed to the initial accusation.

Answer 2: LM cannot be prosecuted unless a the prosecutors office agrees to prosecute. The search warrant could not be executed on the accused's dwelling unless a judge signed off on the warrant. Anyone can bring a LM charge in Thailand, however the police have to make a decision as to whether or not the charge warrants an investigation. An investigation for LM in Thailand, particularly one that requires due diligence requires the signoff of the prosecutors office. In this case, this was not a random LM offense such as demonstrated by the idiot that defaced a public portrait. Rather, this was an investigation of a website and blog. The DSI sent 20 agents from Bangkok to go get the man and search his home and then bring him back to bangkok. Do you honestly believe that the police could mount such a large and expensive operation without the signoff from a government official?

They do so all the time. You also fail to note that in Thailand, such warrants do not require "signing off by a judge." This isn't Canada. Police can and do launch investigations and continue them to the point that has transpired to this point in this case without involving the Attorney-General's office.

Answer 3: I do not which government offical is responsible for this case.

ok. Shame that didn't stop you from saying there was involvement.

Question 4: Where are your statistics from?

Dr, David Streckfuss, a Thailand-based scholar who follows lese-majeste cases closely, gave a talk at the foreign spoke to the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand and presented the numbers I cited.

Thanks. Did he address my question regarding the level of internet usage in 1990 and 2011 regarding the statistical differences?

.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

I anticipate you will now claim that because you have never heard of Dr. Streckfuss, that the numbers are imaginary.

More jumping the gun with erroneous presumptions on your part. Amazing.

Question 5: What was the level of Internet usage in Thailand in 1990 versus 2011?

Answer 5: I haven't the slightest clue

Thanks

Now, you wouldn't happen to be trying to link the surge in LM charges as being a result of increased internet use are you? Aren't you the sly fellow. That would really be grasping for straws since many of the LM charges relate to public events, for example making statements in public.

Rather than grasping for straws, it reflect the reality that many of the recent charges ARE internet-related... like this one or the most widely discussed case involving Prachathai. Did Streckfuss address this aspect in his talk? Did his statistics break down the number of cases that are and aren't internet-related?

[dunkin2012]

While I agree with many comments here, I also disagree with many too. The point has been made that those of us that are not Thai, should not criticize. That happens to be the law too. All Thais must abide by this law or face prosecution. As guests here, why should we not be prosecuted also? It matters not, whether we agree with this law. I believe we have no right as guests, to criticize any law in this country - especially one that merely protects the image and good name of a dynasty that has done more good for their country than any of our own. It's not like this law protects human rights abuse or murder is it? I have lived here quite a while now and the Thais I know - both rich and poor - are relaxed when I am around and when talking to me. I don't comment on this subject unless asked. Sometimes not even then, depending on who I am talking to. I find that discussion on this subject is more prevalent and open amongst the highly educated. All though, have a "deep rooted" love and respect, regardless of any misgivings they may have, if any. There are many other more pressing problems here, that we could better put our energy into. Help make changes for the better that will affect thousands, not just criticize a few people. In the end, it matters not what I think or feel about this topic. I am only a guest who is grateful to be living here.

knowing one thing! they will loook at anyone like an idiot.

if say the truth which is against their different conceptions. then will be in trouble.

guess it's the same reason for Nato in Libya.

Remember a guy from Melbourne.

[Emptyset]

'That book' was actually recommended reading material on my Thai Culture MA course a few years ago at Chula. (Recommended to read when not in Thailand!). And like my fellow students, I did just that when I was visiting the UK.

I found the book well-written, factual and an interesting read which has helped me to understand HM the King to a greater depth.

Did the book lessen my respect for HM? Absolutely not!!

Now, when do I go to jail???

Simon

PS - I think some posters are confusing this 'academic' book with another, more infamous book

I certainly agree that it's a well researched academic text and rarely resorts to mere rumour, but it still must be the most infamous book on its subject around. Prem, in an interview with Far Eastern Economic Review, once said: "I don't like it. The nation doesn't like it. It's a hearsay book and is not based on fact. We are worried [about] the foreigners who read it. My suggestion is please ignore that book. It's useless."

I doubt it'd make a difference to what he says about it, but it would be interesting to know whether Prem actually read it.

[Tatsujin]

I'm not sure if this has been asked before, and I'm not reading through 10 pages of (mostly) inane "comments" . . .

My question(s) -

Does it matter "where" the blog/forum is hosted? For example, if the blog/forum is hosted in the USA, and if the alleged offense occurred whilst the guy was resident in the USA, would the charges here still apply? Would the same charges apply, if hosting was within the USA but the actual comments were posted whilst resident in Thailand?

Taking this a step further and (making the assumption that) the hosting of the blog/forum is within Thailand, are the "hosting company" not also then liable/responsible for the same actions taken against one of there customers? Can they also be charged with LM if one of their customers is?

Just curious . . .

[sirchai]

Insult ?

When you are in a pet shop, zoo or in the wild, and a parrot calls you dirty names... you are angry at the parrot ?

I am happy to live in the Netherlands (EU) , where you are allowed to make jokes about everybody. Really everybody.

Last convinction because of Lese majestic: Domela Nieuwenhuis in 1887 for a half year jail. Released after a few days.

European Court for Human Rights in 1992: members of a governments ( we do not speak anymore about the King/Queen ) should be able to absorb more critics as normal people. And with this, end of discussion.

When you are in a pet shop, zoo or in the wild, and a parrot calls you dirty names... you are angry at the parrot ?

I am happy to live in the Netherlands (EU) , where you are allowed to make jokes about everybody. Really everybody.

I'd kill and eat the parrot with a nice glass of lower Franconian wine. Is it possible that you meant Holland with all its coffee shops with the green leave outside?

Of course you can make jokes about everybody there.....................:jap:

[NanLaew]

Fair enough. I am just surprised that you'd equate it with Private Dancer or The Da Vinci Code in any way.

I was trying to be smart and giving Pedro two examples of books that are NOT particularly well written or well researched. However, they also serve a niche market.

[SteeleJoe]

Fair enough. I am just surprised that you'd equate it with Private Dancer or The Da Vinci Code in any way.

I was trying to be smart and giving Pedro two examples of books that are NOT particularly well written or well researched. However, they also serve a niche market.

Sorry bout that. Obviously misunderstood.

[jayboy]

I certainly agree that it's a well researched academic text and rarely resorts to mere rumour, but it still must be the most infamous book on its subject around. Prem, in an interview with Far Eastern Economic Review, once said: "I don't like it. The nation doesn't like it. It's a hearsay book and is not based on fact. We are worried [about] the foreigners who read it. My suggestion is please ignore that book. It's useless."

I doubt it'd make a difference to what he says about it, but it would be interesting to know whether Prem actually read it.

You are right. It doesn't matter what Prem thinks about it. In fact it will soon not matter what Prem thinks about anything but the remark was revealing for the insight it provides into the myopic elite mentality. The old boy deserves peace and quiet now for his past services, but history will judge him very harshly. Classic example of a man of charisma and influence who could have been a great reformer, but ended up undermining the institutions he was most attached to.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Scott
remark edited out