Gay Activists Call For Same-Sex Marriage Law In Thailand

[jdinasia]

JD - a word you like to throw around a lot is "bigot"

I suggest you look in the mirror before continuing to label others as a bigot.

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.

Right --- which is why I defend your right to hold different beliefs than mine instead of showing animosity I am tolerant of bigots, in all shapes, colors, creeds, and even genders! and if you thought that I was calling YOU a bigot --- I sincerely apologize. I wasn't. I do not think, btw, that anyone is 100% free of bigotry and or prejudice.

[Ulysses G.]

From the homepage of the website you posted from ---- Hard to criticize a book with an agenda --- if your criticism is based on --- an agenda!

Agenda? Does that the gay agenda too?

[jdinasia]

BTW -- I am not trying to get anyone to come around ... and my view isn't "militant" though your use of that terminology is telling.

mil·i·tant

/ˈmilətənt/

Adjective:

Combative and aggressive in support of a political or social cause

What are your motivations if not to sway people into supporting your views of equal rights regarding homosexuals?

Lively debate and discourse ....

I guess I could just compliment everyone that, like you, has shown some tolerance of people that are different ... but dam_n .. that would simply be boring. Challenging people's preconceptions (including mine) is a good thing. It stimulates independent thought and some introspective glances into the self ....

I live in Thailand. This is an expat-forum where the majority of readers aren't actually expats or even in Thailand ...There are people coming here from all over and some have never even considered any of these issues before. Do I care one whit if they change their views in any direction? Nope.

now ... If I were writing this in Thai for Thai News ... or in English for the BKK Post ... I would take a different approach entirely! I am not doing that though, because I am writing it for my own pleasure and edification.

[jdinasia]

From the homepage of the website you posted from ---- Hard to criticize a book with an agenda --- if your criticism is based on --- an agenda!

Agenda? Does that the gay agenda too?

I have a briefcase ... an agenda is too small!

(Then again You and BoonMe have steamers!)

Edited June 3, 2011 by jdinasia

[lanna2011]

JD - a word you like to throw around a lot is "bigot"

I suggest you look in the mirror before continuing to label others as a bigot.

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.

exactly but he's too arrogant to ever even consider it - sad really

I am writing it for my own pleasure and edification

therein lies the truth still it must be very comforting to think you are always right

Edited June 3, 2011 by lanna2011

[Nisa]

BTW -- I am not trying to get anyone to come around ... and my view isn't "militant" though your use of that terminology is telling.

mil·i·tant

/ˈmilətənt/

Adjective:

Combative and aggressive in support of a political or social cause

What are your motivations if not to sway people into supporting your views of equal rights regarding homosexuals?

Lively debate and discourse ....

I guess I could just compliment everyone that, like you, has shown some tolerance of people that are different ... but dam_n .. that would simply be boring. Challenging people's preconceptions (including mine) is a good thing. It stimulates independent thought and some introspective glances into the self ....

I live in Thailand. This is an expat-forum where the majority of readers aren't actually expats or even in Thailand ...There are people coming here from all over and some have never even considered any of these issues before. Do I care one whit if they change their views in any direction? Nope.

now ... If I were writing this in Thai for Thai News ... or in English for the BKK Post ... I would take a different approach entirely! I am not doing that though, because I am writing it for my own pleasure and edification.

Fair enough response and motivation.

I like lively debate too but I think sometimes it just feels like you deliver an under the belt blow when you insinuate others are bigots or prejudice who believe in equal rights (in their mind) but don't rise to the level of your mind's view of equality for gays. It does make it more lively but just seems a bit unfair and takes it more to a personal level of criticism into each other's view as opposed to debating the topic.

Edit:

"Assuming" you are gay ... would you share some of your own experiences of being treated unfairly in Thailand? Completely understand if you would prefer not to but just am curious to know first hand the level of intolerance here. I see the jokes and characters on television but at the same time it appears the vast majority of people could care less about ones sexual preference. Then again, I am not gay and don't experience it first hand.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Nisa

[jdinasia]

My comments was VERY CLEAR that it applied to one's behavior regardless if being a hetrosexual or homosexual. Your response is very telling in terms of your credibility.

As for comparing Gays to Blacks. It is fair to a certain degree but ... I think we need to wait to do this until their is actually proof that their is a "gay gene" which of course scientists have been unable to uncover to this point. However, even if there was a gay gene, ones sexual preference is not a physical characteristic that needs to be apparent to everyone. If you feel a need to let a bus driver know your sexual preferences and turn-ons before getting on a bus or while applying for a job then you have more issues to be concerned with than being gay. Needing to advertise your gayness in a job interview is similar to needing to go to an interview advertising your political beliefs or need to have multi colored dyed hair and face piercings. Some jobs these things may not matter but others they certainly do. The same is true about a married man (or women) who feels the need to cheat on their spouse ... there is just no need to advertise this to others during a business meeting or job interview ... it shows a lack of restraint and basic common sense and/or priorities.

Personally, I could care less if people are born gay or not and could care less about people's sexual preferences, as long as the don't infringe on the rights of others, be it the same sex or being in love with an iPod or sex doll or if they want to be a polygamist. I am all for supporting people's rights to be happy but could care less about somebody's happiness who spits in the face of others because others, who support the same cause, are not as militant and intolerable to others opinions as they are in their views.

I'll leave your first and last paragraphs alone .... and just address what I see as relevant .... the middle paragraph ....

Gay people are gay people and the nature vs nurture arguments are pretty much irrelevant since all the credible research into the subject shows that the attraction is inherent in the person. There doesn't need to be a discussion about the "gay gene" or the "dominating mother" if you accept the basic premise that it isn't a conscious choice (removing the other issues --). Working from that simple premise then the comparison to blacks is relevant, but it isn't a "racial" thing either. I have not been on a job interview in 20 years where I didn't mention being gay (or at least gay tolerant) in some way. "My partner ..... he's a ....", Or that I have done volunteer work with a gay group (or more recently HIV education/awareness groups). Think about that for a minute .... in 20+ years I have chosen to let every single prospective employer know in advance that I was gay. Why would somebody choose to do that?

The answer is simple. I don't "look gay" and I don't "act gay" and I very simply would not want to work for a company that I thought might possibly fire me if they found out later that I was gay. Why would I want to invest time, effort, and energy into lining a bigots pocket? (There's that word again!) Life as a gay person is "different" and what makes it relevant to a black person is that not all black people look black! Some pass as white. There are some great histories and stories about folks in that situation, some who didn't even know of their own racial heritage. Take that person and put him into a job interview and think about what they would say/do .... some would just slide and pass for white. Others would tell the employer knowing that eventually they would find out. I'm the second kind of person. The assumption is automatically that a person is str8 unless they act out in some way (note this is less true in Thailand in big cities --- where the metrosexual look is in vogue -) That very assumption that someone is str8 is a real issue. Another issue is that some employers feel betrayed when you turn out to not be what they assumed. Take a minute to think about the basic assumption of being str8 .... In the office ..... out at dinner with colleagues .... think about all the pretense you have to maintain if you aren't up-front about who you are.

As a footnote --- I think I have only NOT been hired because of my sexual orientation once. I know I have specifically been hired because of my sexual orientation three times. I have been fired for being gay once (second job as an addictions counselor) and that was the last time I didn't at least hint at it in an interview.

and as another footnote --- THAT is how I would write for something other than a web forum I just thought you deserved a bit of more personal honesty instead of the more devil's advocate role I had been playing ...

as a final footnote --- even on here I have gotten nasty PM's from people about me being openly gay .... mostly they make me giggle. In particular the ones with the veiled threats Then I use the ignore function

[jdinasia]

Lively debate and discourse ....

I guess I could just compliment everyone that, like you, has shown some tolerance of people that are different ... but dam_n .. that would simply be boring. Challenging people's preconceptions (including mine) is a good thing. It stimulates independent thought and some introspective glances into the self ....

I live in Thailand. This is an expat-forum where the majority of readers aren't actually expats or even in Thailand ...There are people coming here from all over and some have never even considered any of these issues before. Do I care one whit if they change their views in any direction? Nope.

now ... If I were writing this in Thai for Thai News ... or in English for the BKK Post ... I would take a different approach entirely! I am not doing that though, because I am writing it for my own pleasure and edification.

Fair enough response and motivation.

I like lively debate too but I think sometimes it just feels like you deliver an under the belt blow when you insinuate others are bigots or prejudice who believe in equal rights (in their mind) but don't rise to the level of your mind's view of equality for gays. It does make it more lively but just seems a bit unfair and takes it more to a personal level of criticism into each other's view as opposed to debating the topic.

Edit:

"Assuming" you are gay ... would you share some of your own experiences of being treated unfairly in Thailand? Completely understand if you would prefer not to but just am curious to know first hand the level of intolerance here. I see the jokes and characters on television but at the same time it appears the vast majority of people could care less about ones sexual preference. Then again, I am not gay and don't experience it first hand.

Please note post 181

In Thailand? I am a Director of a Thai company ... openly gay .... BF comes up often ... the ONLY negative responses to me being gay have been from farang. (A Thai couple sneered at my BF once in HuaHin which pissed me off ... the sneer was an assumption that this 25y/o Thai with the 39y/o farang was a hooker ... it really wasn't a gay thing I think, I walked up to them (much to their embarrassment) and gave them one each of our business cards, asked them to call if they needed the services of either of us, smiled, and walked off They were quite puzzled and my BF was mortified at first and then laughing his ass off later!

Other than that, one hotel gave us a hard time when I checked in ... arriving from one city .. and he checked in 1/2 hour later arriving from BKK. I had booked the room as a double in his name and they still gave him a hard time. He called me and I brought my bag down and we left and went to a nicer place. The only other thing I can think of is that his name is assuredly a guy's name .... but when I bought tickets to KPG the woman booking agent kept making it the female variant closest to his name (repeatedly!) and I eventually had to say "my bf is a man" (bf in Thai is gender neutral)

[lanna2011]

Lively debate and discourse ....

I guess I could just compliment everyone that, like you, has shown some tolerance of people that are different ... but dam_n .. that would simply be boring. Challenging people's preconceptions (including mine) is a good thing. It stimulates independent thought and some introspective glances into the self ....

I live in Thailand. This is an expat-forum where the majority of readers aren't actually expats or even in Thailand ...There are people coming here from all over and some have never even considered any of these issues before. Do I care one whit if they change their views in any direction? Nope.

now ... If I were writing this in Thai for Thai News ... or in English for the BKK Post ... I would take a different approach entirely! I am not doing that though, because I am writing it for my own pleasure and edification.

Fair enough response and motivation.

I like lively debate too but I think sometimes it just feels like you deliver an under the belt blow when you insinuate others are bigots or prejudice who believe in equal rights (in their mind) but don't rise to the level of your mind's view of equality for gays. It does make it more lively but just seems a bit unfair and takes it more to a personal level of criticism into each other's view as opposed to debating the topic.

Edit:

"Assuming" you are gay ... would you share some of your own experiences of being treated unfairly in Thailand? Completely understand if you would prefer not to but just am curious to know first hand the level of intolerance here. I see the jokes and characters on television but at the same time it appears the vast majority of people could care less about ones sexual preference. Then again, I am not gay and don't experience it first hand.

Please note post 181

In Thailand? I am a Director of a Thai company ... openly gay .... BF comes up often ... the ONLY negative responses to me being gay have been from farang. (A Thai couple sneered at my BF once in HuaHin which pissed me off ... the sneer was an assumption that this 25y/o Thai with the 39y/o farang was a hooker ... it really wasn't a gay thing I think, I walked up to them (much to their embarrassment) and gave them one each of our business cards, asked them to call if they needed the services of either of us, smiled, and walked off They were quite puzzled and my BF was mortified at first and then laughing his ass off later!

Other than that, one hotel gave us a hard time when I checked in ... arriving from one city .. and he checked in 1/2 hour later arriving from BKK. I had booked the room as a double in his name and they still gave him a hard time. He called me and I brought my bag down and we left and went to a nicer place. The only other thing I can think of is that his name is assuredly a guy's name .... but when I bought tickets to KPG the woman booking agent kept making it the female variant closest to his name (repeatedly!) and I eventually had to say "my bf is a man" (bf in Thai is gender neutral)

Post 181? which is why I defend your right to hold different beliefs than mine instead of showing animosity

This is just not true - you show bitterness and animosity in just about every post - most of us can see it - you evidently cannot

[Nisa]

My comments was VERY CLEAR that it applied to one's behavior regardless if being a hetrosexual or homosexual. Your response is very telling in terms of your credibility.

As for comparing Gays to Blacks. It is fair to a certain degree but ... I think we need to wait to do this until their is actually proof that their is a "gay gene" which of course scientists have been unable to uncover to this point. However, even if there was a gay gene, ones sexual preference is not a physical characteristic that needs to be apparent to everyone. If you feel a need to let a bus driver know your sexual preferences and turn-ons before getting on a bus or while applying for a job then you have more issues to be concerned with than being gay. Needing to advertise your gayness in a job interview is similar to needing to go to an interview advertising your political beliefs or need to have multi colored dyed hair and face piercings. Some jobs these things may not matter but others they certainly do. The same is true about a married man (or women) who feels the need to cheat on their spouse ... there is just no need to advertise this to others during a business meeting or job interview ... it shows a lack of restraint and basic common sense and/or priorities.

Personally, I could care less if people are born gay or not and could care less about people's sexual preferences, as long as the don't infringe on the rights of others, be it the same sex or being in love with an iPod or sex doll or if they want to be a polygamist. I am all for supporting people's rights to be happy but could care less about somebody's happiness who spits in the face of others because others, who support the same cause, are not as militant and intolerable to others opinions as they are in their views.

I'll leave your first and last paragraphs alone .... and just address what I see as relevant .... the middle paragraph ....

Gay people are gay people and the nature vs nurture arguments are pretty much irrelevant since all the credible research into the subject shows that the attraction is inherent in the person. There doesn't need to be a discussion about the "gay gene" or the "dominating mother" if you accept the basic premise that it isn't a conscious choice (removing the other issues --). Working from that simple premise then the comparison to blacks is relevant, but it isn't a "racial" thing either. I have not been on a job interview in 20 years where I didn't mention being gay (or at least gay tolerant) in some way. "My partner ..... he's a ....", Or that I have done volunteer work with a gay group (or more recently HIV education/awareness groups). Think about that for a minute .... in 20+ years I have chosen to let every single prospective employer know in advance that I was gay. Why would somebody choose to do that?

The answer is simple. I don't "look gay" and I don't "act gay" and I very simply would not want to work for a company that I thought might possibly fire me if they found out later that I was gay. Why would I want to invest time, effort, and energy into lining a bigots pocket? (There's that word again!) Life as a gay person is "different" and what makes it relevant to a black person is that not all black people look black! Some pass as white. There are some great histories and stories about folks in that situation, some who didn't even know of their own racial heritage. Take that person and put him into a job interview and think about what they would say/do .... some would just slide and pass for white. Others would tell the employer knowing that eventually they would find out. I'm the second kind of person. The assumption is automatically that a person is str8 unless they act out in some way (note this is less true in Thailand in big cities --- where the metrosexual look is in vogue -) That very assumption that someone is str8 is a real issue. Another issue is that some employers feel betrayed when you turn out to not be what they assumed. Take a minute to think about the basic assumption of being str8 .... In the office ..... out at dinner with colleagues .... think about all the pretense you have to maintain if you aren't up-front about who you are.

As a footnote --- I think I have only NOT been hired because of my sexual orientation once. I know I have specifically been hired because of my sexual orientation three times. I have been fired for being gay once (second job as an addictions counselor) and that was the last time I didn't at least hint at it in an interview.

and as another footnote --- THAT is how I would write for something other than a web forum I just thought you deserved a bit of more personal honesty instead of the more devil's advocate role I had been playing ...

as a final footnote --- even on here I have gotten nasty PM's from people about me being openly gay .... mostly they make me giggle. In particular the ones with the veiled threats Then I use the ignore function

To clarify ... I have no issue with somebody being openly gay. Example; a male during a job interview mentioning their boyfriend. However, I do feel uncomfortable with any sex openly displaying their sexual desires ... of course more so when I am not interested.

I don't pretend to understand being gay because I am not. But I do know it is not a conscious decision. I can actually understand the curiosity or desire to want to experience a gay sexual experience but cannot understand the being in love with the same sex. When I say "not understand" I mean that it clearly is not something one can control because I get those feelings about the opposite sex and no matter how hard I tried I could never have those feelings of being in love with a man (despite my avitar - i am a male).

So, you are right in it not mattering if there is a gene or not. And the comparison's I used in the last paragraph certainly could be offense. These were my words and thoughts and not your fault I made these comments. However, I felt baited (lack of a better word) into saying these things to justify my point when in fact I would normally be taking an opposite stand in terms of supporting the rights of gays and all people. Maybe your methods bring out some inner prejudices within us but I'm not sure if that is a good thing or not ... I mean down deep we probably are all capable of killing too but we have evolved into a people who suppress those instincts to kill to get what we want. I'm just not sure it is a good thing to push somebody until those violent traits emerge is a good thing

[jdinasia]

To clarify ... I have no issue with somebody being openly gay. Example; a male during a job interview mentioning their boyfriend. However, I do feel uncomfortable with any sex openly displaying their sexual desires ... of course more so when I am not interested.

I don't pretend to understand being gay because I am not. But I do know it is not a conscious decision. I can actually understand the curiosity or desire to want to experience a gay sexual experience but cannot understand the being in love with the same sex. When I say "not understand" I mean that it clearly is not something one can control because I get those feelings about the opposite sex and no matter how hard I tried I could never have those feelings of being in love with a man (despite my avitar - i am a male).

So, you are right in it not mattering if there is a gene or not. And the comparison's I used in the last paragraph certainly could be offense. These were my words and thoughts and not your fault I made these comments. However, I felt baited (lack of a better word) into saying these things to justify my point when in fact I would normally be taking an opposite stand in terms of supporting the rights of gays and all people. Maybe your methods bring out some inner prejudices within us but I'm not sure if that is a good thing or not ... I mean down deep we probably are all capable of killing too but we have evolved into a people who suppress those instincts to kill to get what we want. I'm just not sure it is a good thing to push somebody until those violent traits emerge is a good thing

It is an internet forum .... we can all "play nice" or we can challenge each other ... I never get wound up about it and I expect (probably wrongly) that other people won't either. The idea was to challenge the "complacent liberalism" that I myself have and so many other people have. "Some of my best friends are black" "Gays are OK as long as they don't show it" etc etc .... I really am offended by my own complacent liberalism ... and in challenging others on it, I challenge myself. Like I said, personally I could give a rats arse about how you label a same sex marriage (BTW -- there are gay people that are true believers in all faiths and for them ... they care... then there are the liberals that are complacent like me that just want the results. Then I think back to Brown Vs the board of Education.

Have you EVER held a job interview where someone expressed open sexual desire (sexuality)? Strangely, I have, right here in Chiang Mai. Someone came in and dropped off an application and made a remark about the clientele we had (all female at the time, all Thai, all professionals.) He said something on the order of "wow, what a great place to find a GF". I was aghast! I told him right then and there that I would not be calling him back for an interview.

Oh, you asked about real discrimination I have felt in Thailand ---- There is the big one on extension of stays and visas .... 8+ years with the same partner but no option of the extension based upon marriage/Thai Family. For that to change would probably require the term "gay marriage" or there would be the second fight with TM.

[ginjag]

He plays "debate" to win "arguments" in the interwebs.

You can come across such people to almost every topic. It isn't something specific gay.

I replied to your comments earlier, and one in particular but you didn't feel the need to respond. Quote " People choose to be homosexuals" I ask you where on earth did you ever get that notion ?? You could have said people choose not to be gay. If you are going to give an opinion give a good valid reason, without coming out with that sort of rubbish. On topic I would add that if a society deems it fair for that type of society, then why not let them be wed, for whatever reasons they have for making that step.

The thread seems to have been taken over again by a said few -that seems to be always the case===side stepping the topic a fraction. Some of the discussions have been interesting to say the least, and many have spoken some solid sense, but as an example some chess players are pretending to be pro footballers.

[samurai]

Agree 100%

I believe homosexual couples should be able to enter into civil unions, that are just as hard to get out of as a marriage, which affords them the same rights as a hetrosexual married couple. I also have no real conviction against or for them marrying but absolutely support any religion who refuses to perform such a ceremony and accept their rights to no recognize such a marriage under the laws of God but do believe they need to recognize it in terms of state laws.

That's all well and good, but keep in mind the FACT that in most countries/jurisdictions with "alternative" marriage access for gays that is not called marriage, gays don't have anything CLOSE to the exact same right as the oppressing heterosexuals. If you think over time that this second class citizen/back of the bus shabby treatment is going to be acceptable, you have another thing coming.

Gay rights, black struggle not the same

One evening last week, I was flipping through the TV channels to find something interesting. I turned to the local Fox affiliate where a scene in a show caught my attention. I would later come to find the scene was from the television series "Glee," where an effeminate male teenager was being called a faggot by a more masculine male teenager.

An adult male came into the room and defended the teen by asking the masculine male teen, "Do you use the "N" word or call people retarded?"

The masculine teen responded, no.

"Then you should not use the 'F' word either," the adult said (the "F" word being faggot).

As an African American, I am offended at this scene and at homosexuals, in general, who attempt to identify their perceived struggle for equality with the struggle for equality that African Americans have gone through. Let me point out a few of many differences.

• Homosexuals were never enslaved as a population in this country.
• African Americans cannot change their race when it is popular or convenient.
• The U.S. government never, in effect, condoned the lynching of homosexuals as they once did with African Americans.
• The U.S. government never denied homosexuals the right to vote or to own property.
• It is undefined as to what makes someone a homosexual. Some say it is the actual experience of engaging in sexual activity with a member of one's own sex. Others say it's the desires an individual has for someone of their same sex. It appears if one desired to rob a bank, and never actually did it, it would not make one a bank robber. The U.S. government established guidelines as to what criterion determines one to be an African American.

The struggle of African Americans and homosexuals are not the same. People choose to be homosexual; people don't choose their race or to have a developmental disability. I have spoken to homosexuals and they tell me rather emphatically, "I am what I choose to be sexually," which is different from race. Sexuality is a free will choice.

I am not homophobic; I do not fear homosexuals, I just wish they would stop attempting to hijack the pain, deaths, suffering and struggles of the African American people in this country.

http://letters.ocreg...e-not-the-same/

Get your point about a few things BUT quote.. People choose to be homosexual WHAT..... it’s the desires an individual has for someone of their same sex.In other words it would come natural for Her or Him from an early age-and this differs.....I agree with Nisa on most points. The only thing in this world that is annoying is when a person pushes their own feelings/ sexual into the faces of people who don't want it. The same as employing you cannot afford to hire a person to show off their sexual feelings (over the top). I think more people would be more tolerant if what you do in bed and with who--keep it private-as it should be, it's not other peoples business. It is similar to these modern times when you hear of a person complain when they have wronged-""you only have fired me because I am ++++++ this is getting to be normal, many jump on the bandwagon to get compo.If you are a minority anywhere-Do not rock the boat too much.

Not my words, but a quote.

The text pointed out why the struggle of the black people and former slaves cannot be compared with the fight for gay (marriage) rights.

Skin colour isn't really an own choice, it are the others who say 'your skin in black',

meanwhile sexual orientation can depend on your open-mindedness and if you have developed a phobia of a certain gender or not. Who you wanna penetrate or by who you want to get penetrated.

That isn't all pure biologistic and natural, but social constructs of gender roles.

Edited June 3, 2011 by samurai

[Nisa]

One thing I find interesting or a disturbing in Thailand is the refusal of the government to allow people who have had sex change operations to change their sex on their ID. They let people change their name (for good luck) but they won't let somebody change their sex who has physically changed. I have to believe this is more about wanting to be sure to out anyone who has had a sex change than any other reason. So, in addition to still not being able to marry, I have to wonder what happens to these people if they go to jail ... let alone what bathroom they are legally supposed to use. Not that it (bathroom) really matters in Thailand since 9 times out of 10 their is some women in the men's room cleaning the urinal next to the one you're peeing in.

[granuaile]

One thing I find interesting or a disturbing in Thailand is the refusal of the government to allow people who have had sex change operations to change their sex on their ID. They let people change their name (for good luck) but they won't let somebody change their sex who has physically changed. I have to believe this is more about wanting to be sure to out anyone who has had a sex change than any other reason. So, in addition to still not being able to marry, I have to wonder what happens to these people if they go to jail ... let alone what bathroom they are legally supposed to use. Not that it (bathroom) really matters in Thailand since 9 times out of 10 their is some women in the men's room cleaning the urinal next to the one you're peeing in.

I am inclined to agree except for the reasons. I think the reason is more rooted in resistance to social change. I don't think it has to do with restroom issues (kathoey regularly use women's restrooms and toms men's, but if they are arrested my understanding is that they would be put with men. I've not personally known any such cases but have heard that. In addition there is routine discrimination in employment here against not only kathoey and tg people but also against tomboys (though feel that is to a much lesser extent)... I do think things are changing... Following the 2006 coup there were proposals to add gay rights to the constitution that was drafted, though in the end they were not included. And some things are a tricky issue. Personally I do not agree with the current US policy of changing gender on passports where surgery is neither planned or intended, primarily because I honestly don't believe many who claim to be transsexual genuinely are at least in Western countries. Many objected to restrictions Thailand put into place (I think late 2009) on individuals coming here for SRS, because essentially they put into policy the standards that medical professionals in the west were already using and many individuals were coming here to circumvent those.

That said it does raise issues vis a vis marriage. Who can a post-operative transsexual marry in Thailand? Immigration I know takes passports pretty much on face value, but really legally I wonder... Would it be the recognized gender of the individual in their home country (and in the US that does not necessarily apply to marriage - several states have voided marriages between transsexuals and individuals they married afterward of the gender opposite their birth gender) or would it be birth gender?

[ginjag]

Samurai#193.

Whatever your reasons for throwing the BLACK issue to compare-your on your own, if you have a headache about it -then keep it. I understand why your using it BUT have blacks a problem with gay marriage if so leave it to another topic, or we will be inundated with posts about all minorities.

According to your further crazy notion about the last post to me that people choose to be gay. Now about your fixed idea on how a gay TURNS gay, The best thing is to get around gay people and ask them if they have a choice-like which way to go, now this=YOU SAID-QUOTE===((((((=meanwhile sexual orientation can depend on your open-mindedness and if you have developed a phobia of a certain gender or not. Who you wanna penetrate or by who you want to get penetrated.

That isn't all pure biologistic and natural, but social constructs of gender roles))))))))) .I,m sorry you have completely missed the boat !!! and unless you can get some TRUE personal comments and learn from gay people, then choose another topic. You seem to be best at arguing your position regarding the P.M. topic. Knowing the subject is one thing but not knowing and arguing about it is another. What I posted here is for real and what is going on -reality- anyway no hard feelings :jap:

[FOODLOVER]

Samurai#193.

Whatever your reasons for throwing the BLACK issue to compare-your on your own, if you have a headache about it -then keep it. I understand why your using it BUT have blacks a problem with gay marriage if so leave it to another topic, or we will be inundated with posts about all minorities.

According to your further crazy notion about the last post to me that people choose to be gay. Now about your fixed idea on how a gay TURNS gay, The best thing is to get around gay people and ask them if they have a choice-like which way to go, now this=YOU SAID-QUOTE===((((((=meanwhile sexual orientation can depend on your open-mindedness and if you have developed a phobia of a certain gender or not. Who you wanna penetrate or by who you want to get penetrated.

That isn't all pure biologistic and natural, but social constructs of gender roles))))))))) .I,m sorry you have completely missed the boat !!! and unless you can get some TRUE personal comments and learn from gay people, then choose another topic. You seem to be best at arguing your position regarding the P.M. topic. Knowing the subject is one thing but not knowing and arguing about it is another. What I posted here is for real and what is going on -reality- anyway no hard feelings :jap:

"no hard feelings"

[ginjag]

Samurai#193.

Whatever your reasons for throwing the BLACK issue to compare-your on your own, if you have a headache about it -then keep it. I understand why your using it BUT have blacks a problem with gay marriage if so leave it to another topic, or we will be inundated with posts about all minorities.

According to your further crazy notion about the last post to me that people choose to be gay. Now about your fixed idea on how a gay TURNS gay, The best thing is to get around gay people and ask them if they have a choice-like which way to go, now this=YOU SAID-QUOTE===((((((=meanwhile sexual orientation can depend on your open-mindedness and if you have developed a phobia of a certain gender or not. Who you wanna penetrate or by who you want to get penetrated.

That isn't all pure biologistic and natural, but social constructs of gender roles))))))))) .I,m sorry you have completely missed the boat !!! and unless you can get some TRUE personal comments and learn from gay people, then choose another topic. You seem to be best at arguing your position regarding the P.M. topic. Knowing the subject is one thing but not knowing and arguing about it is another. What I posted here is for real and what is going on -reality- anyway no hard feelings :jap:

"no hard feelings"

If you don't have try viagra--or spray on starch-or 2 lollypop sticks and a rubber band....5555555555, gave him a STIFF talking to :lol::lol:

[Nisa]

One thing I find interesting or a disturbing in Thailand is the refusal of the government to allow people who have had sex change operations to change their sex on their ID. They let people change their name (for good luck) but they won't let somebody change their sex who has physically changed. I have to believe this is more about wanting to be sure to out anyone who has had a sex change than any other reason. So, in addition to still not being able to marry, I have to wonder what happens to these people if they go to jail ... let alone what bathroom they are legally supposed to use. Not that it (bathroom) really matters in Thailand since 9 times out of 10 their is some women in the men's room cleaning the urinal next to the one you're peeing in.

I am inclined to agree except for the reasons. I think the reason is more rooted in resistance to social change. I don't think it has to do with restroom issues (kathoey regularly use women's restrooms and toms men's, but if they are arrested my understanding is that they would be put with men. I've not personally known any such cases but have heard that. In addition there is routine discrimination in employment here against not only kathoey and tg people but also against tomboys (though feel that is to a much lesser extent)... I do think things are changing... Following the 2006 coup there were proposals to add gay rights to the constitution that was drafted, though in the end they were not included. And some things are a tricky issue. Personally I do not agree with the current US policy of changing gender on passports where surgery is neither planned or intended, primarily because I honestly don't believe many who claim to be transsexual genuinely are at least in Western countries. Many objected to restrictions Thailand put into place (I think late 2009) on individuals coming here for SRS, because essentially they put into policy the standards that medical professionals in the west were already using and many individuals were coming here to circumvent those.

That said it does raise issues vis a vis marriage. Who can a post-operative transsexual marry in Thailand? Immigration I know takes passports pretty much on face value, but really legally I wonder... Would it be the recognized gender of the individual in their home country (and in the US that does not necessarily apply to marriage - several states have voided marriages between transsexuals and individuals they married afterward of the gender opposite their birth gender) or would it be birth gender?

Am I reading your right ... people can change their gender on official documents such as a passport if they INTEND to have a sex change? If true, that is bizarre and I too disagree with that policy.

[anon8]

the right to be married to your loved one is a basic human right.. gay, straight.. who cares! But not in Thailand, not in this life time. I envy peeps who live here 40 years from now, they might have it

[anon8]

also..

Nisa, you have no clue what you are talking about. Sorry! no, Im not even sorry.

dude, don't let your unhappiness get on on a way to other peoples happiness, just ignore it, I understand, when you feel miserable, you want everybody to feel miserbale, it is basic stuff, it makes u feel better if everybody suffers, not just u. As much as it annoys you if other people are happy.. let them be happy, it doesn't affect your day to day life one bit. Im a bitter dude myself, still, it brings a smile to my face to see a happy couple, no matter what sex, opposite .. same sex, whertevr sex. Just let go

Edited June 4, 2011 by valgehiir

[Nisa]

also..

Nisa, you have no clue what you are talking about. Sorry! no, Im not even sorry.

dude, don't let your unhappiness get on on a way to other peoples happiness, just ignore it, I understand, when you feel miserable, you want everybody to feel miserbale, it is basic stuff, it makes u feel better if everybody suffers, not just u. As much as it annoys you if other people are happy.. let them be happy, it doesn't affect your day to day life one bit. Im a bitter dude myself, still, it brings a smile to my face to see a happy couple, no matter what sex, opposite .. same sex, whertevr sex. Just let go

Absolutely no clue what you are going on about.

[FOODLOVER]

THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHT

Article 16.

• (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
• (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
• (3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

• Article 24.

• Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

(but not every day! )

Does this include same sex?

Edited June 5, 2011 by FOODLOVER

[granuaile]

Am I reading your right ... people can change their gender on official documents such as a passport if they INTEND to have a sex change? If true, that is bizarre and I too disagree with that policy.

In the U.S. policy has long been (even under Bush) that if surgery is scheduled one could be issued a temporary one-year passport with the gender they were changing to. Once surgery was completed they would be issued a regular passport with the post-surgical gender indicated. There are some valid reasons for this. One is that traveling can be an issue if the gender one presents as and the photo and gender marker on the passport do not match. The new policy however removes the surgery requirement, which honestly 10 years ago I would have had no problem with. But at this point in time I do not think it is a good idea to change gender even if surgery is not planned unless surgery presents a major risk to the individual... However, that really is not relevant to the issue of marriage other than the fact that potentially someone could use a passport for purposes of marriage in the US and here. An issue that would not be important if same-sex marriage was recognized, including in Thailand and in the US.

[TAWP]

Why not a compromise here? Some states in America enacted "Domestic Partner" laws. These enable same-sex couples to enjoy the same legal rights as a "married" couple without a formal marriage. Still, many gays there insist on being legally married. It seems almost an obsession with some of them. I see no compelling reason to change this tradition from all countries for centuries.

What is the argument against allowing everyone to marry whoever they want?

One American I recently meet said it was because the word 'marriage' was in the bible and hence protected and any union of gays as a couple had to be called something else. Of course he failed to understand that English isn't the mother-tongue of the world and neither is it the language of the bible...

[TAWP]

JD - a word you like to throw around a lot is "bigot"

I suggest you look in the mirror before continuing to label others as a bigot.

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.

exactly but he's too arrogant to ever even consider it - sad really

I am writing it for my own pleasure and edification

therein lies the truth still it must be very comforting to think you are always right

Yes, unlike you that seem to write most of your posts knowing that you are wrong or on thin ice.

Lanna-loving Gay-bashing Red Shirt supporter...CM51 has a farang member?

[lanna2011]

JD - a word you like to throw around a lot is "bigot"

I suggest you look in the mirror before continuing to label others as a bigot.

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.

exactly but he's too arrogant to ever even consider it - sad really

I am writing it for my own pleasure and edification

therein lies the truth still it must be very comforting to think you are always right

Yes, unlike you that seem to write most of your posts knowing that you are wrong or on thin ice.

Lanna-loving Gay-bashing Red Shirt supporter...CM51 has a farang member?

Thank you just what we need today a name caller! - you are a credit to the gay militant faction - and have obviously not read the thread where I have defended gay equal rights and several other posters similar views to mine

[FOODLOVER]

JD - a word you like to throw around a lot is "bigot"

I suggest you look in the mirror before continuing to label others as a bigot.

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.

exactly but he's too arrogant to ever even consider it - sad really

I am writing it for my own pleasure and edification

therein lies the truth still it must be very comforting to think you are always right

Yes, unlike you that seem to write most of your posts knowing that you are wrong or on thin ice.

Lanna-loving Gay-bashing Red Shirt supporter...CM51 has a farang member?

I too have a farang member! Never let me down.

[jdinasia]

Thank you just what we need today a name caller! - you are a credit to the gay militant faction - and have obviously not read the thread where I have defended gay equal rights and several other posters similar views to mine

You haven't -- you have defended "less-than-equal" rights. In fact, you started by questioning the logic of it, then made bogus claims about religion in Thailand and gay marriages being counter to Buddhism. Then you brought in Tibetan Buddhism and misrepresented that as well ......

The post that Tawp replied to has you calling me arrogant etc .... which makes it a bit hypocritical to complain about being called a name.

You are also making an assumption that someone else is gay ... which to my knowledge is a fact not in evidence.

Always "fun" to have you around though

[lanna2011]

Thank you just what we need today a name caller! - you are a credit to the gay militant faction - and have obviously not read the thread where I have defended gay equal rights and several other posters similar views to mine

You haven't -- you have defended "less-than-equal" rights. In fact, you started by questioning the logic of it, then made bogus claims about religion in Thailand and gay marriages being counter to Buddhism. Then you brought in Tibetan Buddhism and misrepresented that as well ......

The post that Tawp replied to has you calling me arrogant etc .... which makes it a bit hypocritical to complain about being called a name.

You are also making an assumption that someone else is gay ... which to my knowledge is a fact not in evidence.

Always "fun" to have you around though

boring.. boring... you lost the argument a long time ago what's the thing with the 'fun'? in every post?