Learning A Martial Art In Pattaya

[KMBKK]

I beg to differ,im not saying the throat is the best place to strike

Actually you said:

strikes are focused on the throat and groin primarily

but,if done correctly the result is devastating,fact....

"Facts" have this funny characteristic... they usually don't have overwhelming evidence against them.

as i said before is the ethos behing krav Maga...its not a martial art where u have rounds and points,its self defense,maximum damage,minimum effort and u walk away.....

Okay, well I think the dogmatic approach of certain CQC and TMA practitioners has been well represented here and the point made. Maybe the fellow who started this thread will find your religion appealing.

[KMBKK]

I think you oversee the fact that they guys in the ring are actually wearing gloves.

Try to hit the throat with the gloves on .... Now try to hit the throat again with your bare hands, the results can end much worse then you would expect.

No gloves in early MMA, very small, light gloves now. If a professional cannot do it with a slim quarter inch of padding, it is unlikely an amateur can under pressure without it.

This is why force-on-force training is so essential- it throws all your plans out the window and humbles you. But at the end you have a usable toolbox of techniques that you know work, and have used full force and speed dozens, if not hundreds of times.

Edited June 11, 2011 by KMBKK

[braverrouge]

I think the best would be to go for Krav Maga. Or Muay Chaiya, if you succeed to find it there.

As far as I know, there is no quality chinese styles' schools there, no silat and no FMA.

P. S. Aikido, muay thai and taekwondo are rather far from what is needed for combat. Aikido being the farthest

Interesting because I would say the most effective martial art for both defense and combat is Aikido. There is are two myths about Aikido that simply are not true:

1) It is for defense only, and

2) it is not deadly.

But I am not going to debate it further.

Aikido in it's true spirit is defense only. You will not find Aikido tournaments as the person that makes the first move always will lose.

I am sure Aikido can be deadly if used wrong but this is not the point of Aikido, I studied it around a year in Wakamatsuchou Tokyo Hombu Dojo, the same place that Ueshiba Morihei founded. I studied there under Moriteru Ueshiba and although I am no expert in Aikido it was only over promoted as self defence.

Aside from that the focus was on other things such as living properly and doing things in proper form. Most of the people that went there would not act out of hand in such a way to need to defend themselves. Avoiding bad situations through being respectful and improving you body through a quite rigorous work out in the Dojo was the order of the day.

That being said I was always tempted to try to sucker punch the Sensei to see if the stuff really worked. LOL

To be honest with you, I think that you learned absolutely nothing while you where in Japan.

That's not because of a bad sensei, it's just because of a blind student.

I'd been practicing various martial arts including Aikido.

Lets forget about the philosophy behind Aikido and focus on the techniques.

Whenever you do a technique in Aikido you always move in in a way so that your attacker would be unable to attack you again and at the same time you also open up space for you to directly strike you attackers vital points.

This can only be archived with proper movement and body positioning.

If you opened up your eyes while you were training at Hombu dojo, you could have noticed that the attacker was never given a chance to resist and come back for another attack, specially when Doshu was giving demonstrations.

[braverrouge]

I think you oversee the fact that they guys in the ring are actually wearing gloves.

Try to hit the throat with the gloves on .... Now try to hit the throat again with your bare hands, the results can end much worse then you would expect.

No gloves in early MMA, very small, light gloves now. If a professional cannot do it with a slim quarter inch of padding, it is unlikely an amateur can under pressure without it.

This is why force-on-force training is so essential- it throws all your plans out the window and humbles you. But at the end you have a usable toolbox of techniques that you know work, and have used full force and speed dozens, if not hundreds of times.

Just out of my own experience I'm not proud of, I did hit someone straight into the throat during a fight few years back.

It did happen out of reflex after I saw the opening in front of me.

The guy sack down in front of me and started choking. I don't really know what happened after that after my friends pulled me away.

[braverrouge]

Glad to see all the informative comments from all martial artist this time and that it didn't end up with who's better.

[KMBKK]

To be honest with you, I think that you learned absolutely nothing while you where in Japan.

That's not because of a bad sensei, it's just because of a blind student.

I'd been practicing various martial arts including Aikido.

Lets forget about the philosophy behind Aikido and focus on the techniques.

Whenever you do a technique in Aikido you always move in in a way so that your attacker would be unable to attack you again and at the same time you also open up space for you to directly strike you attackers vital points.

This can only be archived with proper movement and body positioning.

If you opened up your eyes while you were training at Hombu dojo, you could have noticed that the attacker was never given a chance to resist and come back for another attack, specially when Doshu was giving demonstrations.

Rule 2- Avoid martial arts where the practitioners feel the need to speak like a fortune cookie.

What braverrouge is talking about is positional dominance. That is hardly unique to Aikido- it's a fundamental principle in nearly all combat arts. They do it better than many though.

For instance in MMA wrestlers have inferior submission technique to BJJ guys, and inferior striking skills to Muay Thai guys, but tend to be positional dominant over both- making them tough opponents because position precedes the utilization of effective techniques. Because of this fighters with a strong Wrestling "base" who then add basic striking and submission defense fill out most of the top ranks of the UFC. It's not strictly because their style- wrestling, is better. It's because they are positionally dominant- the goal that braverrouge (correctly IMHO) promotes in his little Haiku there.

Likewise, while it is good strategy to focus on known weak spots (groin, liver, eyes when necessary etc.) in order to execute the technique, you still need to be positionally dominant- which many CQC styles dislike doing as they feel it is too "sporty". Aikido, does in it's defense practice it sufficiently to make a low single on a aikidōka unlikely- something which can easily be gotten on most other pure stand up practitioners.

The interesting thing about Aikido is every practitioner I have met has a firm commitment to deescalation. In BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai and most of the assorted CQC styles this is either downplayed or the reverse ends up being true- an excess of confidence or experience leads them to be more likely to get into physical confrontations.

That being said, Aikido is kind of the Renaissance Fair of Asian martial arts, they like to dress up in period costume and talk funny to each other.

Edited June 11, 2011 by KMBKK

[Phil Conners]

So can anybody recommend a good place to train Ju-Jitsu in Pattaya?

[englishinsiam]

So can anybody recommend a good place to train Ju-Jitsu in Pattaya?

Try the Gym on Pattaya Klang they do various Martial Arts there. I know they do the trendy MMA offshoots there so probably some Jiu Jitsu too.

It's good to see the debate on different attitudes here.

Boxers/BJJ etc don't hit the throat in real fights because they don't train to aim there so it's not in their muscle memory.

Most of my strikes are aimed at the caroted artery in training and now my natural reaction is to hit there. In WT we aim to position ourselves off the opponents centre but where we are attacking his centre. It's this reluctance to give up the centre combined with simple yet effective footwork that makes WT so good.

We don't train like a Karate Dojo where it's a perfect Gyakazuki coming towards us, we train with hooks, jabs, sucker punches, gouges, windmills, grabs, chokes, locks, kicks, nuts, dummies etc coming at us. Obviously in the early days these are slow but this builds up the muscle memory which is the most important thing. Then over time we speed them up until we are charging at each other.

In fact I find the faster and harder someone attacks the easier it is to deal with as they are giving me so many impulses to react.

Never look at these new breed of MMA guys with big biceps and let them scare you. Ok they might be quick but biceps don't throw a punch they slow it. Big biceps to me are a lovely strong handle to move myself to the back of him where I can use 3 nice palm strikes to the back of his head Or attack the kidneys or liver.

Someone said about punching and hurting your hands, then you are punching wrong never tense your fist it should be like a rope and the fist is just the knot at the end. Keep your arm and fist fluid and don't completely close your fist punch straight not twisted as in most martial arts and you generally wont hurt yourself.

Punching the chin... There is a small bone in the chin split into 2 if you hit this it compresses and as a safety measure the brain shuts off. This is where the term hitting someone on the button comes from thats why Boxers go for this area because they are allowed to in their sport. If hit correctly it sends the legs to jelly and sends someone down immediately.

All fighting is a science and if a blood and snot Krav Maga came at me I'm sure I would be the one to walk away. I just wouldn't be there when he charged at me. Loose elbows are very dangerous for the attacker only ever elbow someone when you have full control of them and when your in very close. Charge at someone who knows what they're doing with an elbow and you will lose.

[morphic]

"Charge at someone who knows what they're doing with an elbow and you will lose. "

Who who ever charge at somebody with their elbow?

By the way, where do you train "WT"? In Pattaya?

I wish there was somewhere in Pattaya to do some Judo, not because I think its good for self-defence, but because its fun and great for all round fitness and conditioning. Pity it doesn't seem to exist in Pattaya. (Combined with some striking skill I do think its good for self-defence by the way, but the best self-defence is still to run at the first sight of trouble)

In general all I ever see in Pattaya is Muay Thai but for most falang that seems to involve making loud slapping sounds on a pad held by the Thai instructor, great for fitness but probably not much more.

[KMBKK]

Just for non-martial artists so they can stay in the conversation this is Wing Chun:

Note: All Wing Chun ever captured on video against a trained resisting opponent of any other style is not "real" Wing Chun. Occasionally "Wing Chun" fighters may be seen on video doing techniques like the sprawl and double leg- should they be successful these are considered Wing Chun techniques. If unsuccessful see above.

Personally I practice my own hybrid blend of Llap-Goch, Kosho, Mok'bara which I have awarded myself the rank of 27th Dan. I train with entirely through visualization of hero scenarios during which I rescue hot Asian chicks. Yet, I am absolutely certain that should I ever be called upon to use it in real life I will kick ass.

[KMBKK]

Multiple opponents is often considered to be more a question of training over technique. Stacking is a positional strategy so the angle of your secret punch does not matter much. Krav Maga, JKD and most CCQ styles do stacking drills with varying degrees of realism with a focus on plum position. Decent clinch, knee and elbow work is pretty much a prerequisite for stacking.

It's hard enough for a beginner to prevail against a single opponent, I think planning for multiple with anything but surviving with a visor or monkey defense is pretty ambitious.

Throat grabs are another ballgame than throat strikes, well established, reasonably well proven. Leave you open for all sorts of bad things if you leave your hand there so generally it's best as the self-defense version of Osoto Gari (bastardized Namame Uchi).

Edited June 12, 2011 by KMBKK

[morphic]

And getting back to the original purpose of the thread, what isn available in Pattaya and where is it and is it any good?

I know the place on Pattaya Klang, they do Muay Thai and a variety of Kung <deleted> that mixes up strikes, locks and throws etc.

Then there is Fairtex in North Pattaya, they do Muay Thai and maybe others but their prices are extremely high.

Any others?

[Phil Conners]

So can anybody recommend a good place to train Ju-Jitsu in Pattaya?

Try the Gym on Pattaya Klang they do various Martial Arts there. I know they do the trendy MMA offshoots there so probably some Jiu Jitsu too.

Are you talking about the place owned by a guy calling himself Sifu, hosting/awarding world championships in a type of martial arts only practiced in his place and in his spare time driving around Pattaya in a yellow Hummer with the word SWAT on the side?

Any other places you can think off?

[morphic]

So can anybody recommend a good place to train Ju-Jitsu in Pattaya?

Try the Gym on Pattaya Klang they do various Martial Arts there. I know they do the trendy MMA offshoots there so probably some Jiu Jitsu too.

Are you talking about the place owned by a guy calling himself Sifu, hosting/awarding world championships in a type of martial arts only practiced in his place and in his spare time driving around Pattaya in a yellow Hummer with the word SWAT on the side?

Any other places you can think off?

Yes, thats the place and thats him. And as far as I can tell he is a very capable man and has achieved a lot. I've been to his gym a few times and its pretty good and there are a lot or very capable martial artists there, certainly far better than I am. Anyway, they do Muay Thai and his brand of King <deleted> (which I have never done but it like a mix of strikes, locks and throws).

Otherwise I just know of Fairtex but as I said, that is very expensive and very commercial.

Do people know of other places?

[KMBKK]

Yes, thats the place and thats him. And as far as I can tell he is a very capable man and has achieved a lot. I've been to his gym a few times and its pretty good and there are a lot or very capable martial artists there, certainly far better than I am. Anyway, they do Muay Thai and his brand of King <deleted> (which I have never done but it like a mix of strikes, locks and throws).

Found an odd video from the Pattaya Klang school. There is actually a proper way to do this, this is the wrong way:

This is the right way:

In answer to the original posters question, to be honest if you have never practiced *anything* Muay Thai is a perfectly good base. They don't focus on them a lot, but they are aware of and use throws from the clinch. They don't defend low line takedowns well but they also don't do them wrong- and you can learn a basic sprawl in an afternoon. A good MT coach will put a lot of focus on footwork and NOT getting hit- which for a beginner is a far more useful skill than hitting.

The one issue with Thai coaches is they will generally tell you once, and if you don't listen or argue in the least they lose all interest in you as a student and just go through the motions. They have no interest in pushing or motivating you, if you drag your feet they will take your money just the same and not object in the least.

I would go over to Sityodtong, just be very modest and polite, and you will probably get a lot more out of a month there than any half assed classed elsewhere in Pattaya. If you end up going to Krav Maga later- no problems, it's based on boxing and wrestling. You won't have to unlearn any fundamentals. If you go to BJJ later great- you'll be better at slipping strikes during the shoot. MT is cheap, easy to come by, good conditioning and a solid base. It just does not have the flashy cool stuff people like.

Edited June 12, 2011 by KMBKK

[morphic]

Yes, well, blocking kicks with your hand doesn't seem sensible, good way to get a broken arm/hand/fingers.

The thing about Muay Thai in Pattaya is it isn't really a question of what footwork/strategy/strikes/throws should be taught, its that all I ever see is a Thai instructor holding a pad and a falang kicking it and making a loud slapping sound and frankly, that is just a waste of time, apart from for fitness or preparing for a competition (not relevant to me or to 99% of people who want to train). No point in paying to just kick a pad as hard as you can.

The U-tube videos were good, I know that stand up method (actually I incorporate it into my work out routine) and I used to know the head lock escapes (from Japanese Jujitsu) and watching the videos made me aware I've forgotten some really useful stuff and want to train some more.

Would think BJJ would be fine and would like to do more but Sityodtong is one of those places that are really far away, isn't there anything more central?

[KMBKK]

I used to know the head lock escapes (from Japanese Jujitsu)

The headlock escape thing is funny, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu teaches it but many sport oriented Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and MMA schools don't teach the headlock escape- because it's a stupid technique that no experienced fighter would use One of those odd things to keep in mind, KM, CQC (keep mispelling that), GJJ schools, although less competitive tend to be better about about teaching defense to "typical" rather than effective moves.

Would think BJJ would be fine and would like to do more but Sityodtong is one of those places that are really far away, isn't there anything more central?

Not that far, maybe 10 minutes by moto. Central means tourists. I know people who have trained there and liked it, know very little about other places- as you said, loud slapping sounds.

[neilf]

Throat strikes can easily end in a fatality. Are you sure that they are permitted in the sporting martial arts?

agreed

i knew a chap in uk who when in a pissed up 2 men fight in a pub accidentally hit the other guy on the throat not the chin ----------result collapsed windpipe = death = 15 years hmp for manslaughter

Edited June 13, 2011 by neilf

[Phil Conners]

There's a place in Pattaya called Kombat group listing BJJ on their website. It looks a little commercial for my taste however. Does anyone have first hand experience with this place?

[anotheruser]

I think the best would be to go for Krav Maga. Or Muay Chaiya, if you succeed to find it there.

As far as I know, there is no quality chinese styles' schools there, no silat and no FMA.

P. S. Aikido, muay thai and taekwondo are rather far from what is needed for combat. Aikido being the farthest

Interesting because I would say the most effective martial art for both defense and combat is Aikido. There is are two myths about Aikido that simply are not true:

1) It is for defense only, and

2) it is not deadly.

But I am not going to debate it further.

Aikido in it's true spirit is defense only. You will not find Aikido tournaments as the person that makes the first move always will lose.

I am sure Aikido can be deadly if used wrong but this is not the point of Aikido, I studied it around a year in Wakamatsuchou Tokyo Hombu Dojo, the same place that Ueshiba Morihei founded. I studied there under Moriteru Ueshiba and although I am no expert in Aikido it was only over promoted as self defence.

Aside from that the focus was on other things such as living properly and doing things in proper form. Most of the people that went there would not act out of hand in such a way to need to defend themselves. Avoiding bad situations through being respectful and improving you body through a quite rigorous work out in the Dojo was the order of the day.

That being said I was always tempted to try to sucker punch the Sensei to see if the stuff really worked. LOL

Steven Seagal???

It is funny to me when people equate Seagal with Aikido. The stuff he is depicted doing in movies could not be farther from the principles of Aikido.

[Pattaya46]

It is funny to me when people equate Seagal with Aikido.

Why? Isn't he a high (?) dan black belt in Aikido?

and wasn't he a Aikido teacher before making movies?

And to come back to the subject, another place : http://www.aikido-pattaya.com/ near Big C Sukhumvit

[soundman]

It is funny to me when people equate Seagal with Aikido.

Dunno - this looks pretty real to me.

but then again maybe this is real too

[KMBKK]

There's a place in Pattaya called Kombat group listing BJJ on their website. It looks a little commercial for my taste however. Does anyone have first hand experience with this place?

Very few BJJ schools are not commercial, it takes hundreds of hours on the mat to advance and global price of instruction is pretty constant. It's not a rip-off, you'll hardly ever find an instructor doing more than making ends meet.

The big concern with a BJJ/grappling school is if they are sport oriented, if so how is that effecting their training. Are they training with the gi (good) or for the gi (not so good unless you are interested in sport BJJ). If they are no-gi, are they training for no-gi grappling, or for MMA. The later gives faster results, but will often hold back your overall ground game due to a reliance on strikes to get out of bad spots- and sometimes people can just take a punch.

Why not go over and write a forum report? Sure they would like a thread.

Edited June 13, 2011 by KMBKK

[Phil Conners]

I might check them out. Would just be nice to hear anyone's first hand experience as a matter of saving time.

[Parker1973]

There's a place in Pattaya called Kombat group listing BJJ on their website. It looks a little commercial for my taste however. Does anyone have first hand experience with this place?

I train there,Krav Maga,yes its commercial,but then its a business,not a charity,same as most martial art schools......very good,nice people,prices same as Uk,which makes it expensive,but thats life.....can recommend it......

[Phil Conners]

There's a place in Pattaya called Kombat group listing BJJ on their website. It looks a little commercial for my taste however. Does anyone have first hand experience with this place?

I train there,Krav Maga,yes its commercial,but then its a business,not a charity,same as most martial art schools......very good,nice people,prices same as Uk,which makes it expensive,but thats life.....can recommend it......

Where I come from martial arts are usually non-profit groups, people do it as a hobby, not as a business. I didn't see any prices on their website, how much do you pay?

[Parker1973]

There's a place in Pattaya called Kombat group listing BJJ on their website. It looks a little commercial for my taste however. Does anyone have first hand experience with this place?

I train there,Krav Maga,yes its commercial,but then its a business,not a charity,same as most martial art schools......very good,nice people,prices same as Uk,which makes it expensive,but thats life.....can recommend it......

Where I come from martial arts are usually non-profit groups, people do it as a hobby, not as a business. I didn't see any prices on their website, how much do you pay?

This is Thailand,its all about making money.....

Its 500 baht a session (1hour) but i pay 6000 baht for 15 sessions (400 baht each)...expensive, as i only pay £10 for 90 mins in London,but its the only place i know of teaching Krav and i enjoy it....

[Phil Conners]

There's a place in Pattaya called Kombat group listing BJJ on their website. It looks a little commercial for my taste however. Does anyone have first hand experience with this place?

I train there,Krav Maga,yes its commercial,but then its a business,not a charity,same as most martial art schools......very good,nice people,prices same as Uk,which makes it expensive,but thats life.....can recommend it......

Where I come from martial arts are usually non-profit groups, people do it as a hobby, not as a business. I didn't see any prices on their website, how much do you pay?

This is Thailand,its all about making money.....

Its 500 baht a session (1hour) but i pay 6000 baht for 15 sessions (400 baht each)...expensive, as i only pay £10 for 90 mins in London,but its the only place i know of teaching Krav and i enjoy it....

It doesn't have to be like that. I used to do Aikido with a non-profit group here, 1000 baht/month, could do up to 4 sessions per week if I wanted. Unfortunately it just wasn't the right thing for me.

[Parker1973]

This is Thailand,its all about making money.....

Its 500 baht a session (1hour) but i pay 6000 baht for 15 sessions (400 baht each)...expensive, as i only pay £10 for 90 mins in London,but its the only place i know of teaching Krav and i enjoy it....

It doesn't have to be like that. I used to do Aikido with a non-profit group here, 1000 baht/month, could do up to 4 sessions per week if I wanted. Unfortunately it just wasn't the right thing for me.

I agree with u,but u know what its like here......anyway,its kinda expensive,but u can train in muay thai,bjj,krav maga etc all in one gym......worth a try.....

Edited June 13, 2011 by Phil Conners
botched quote fixed

[ESB7]

It is funny to me when people equate Seagal with Aikido. The stuff he is depicted doing in movies could not be farther from the principles of Aikido.

So, you are saying he never studied Aikido???

Edited June 13, 2011 by Phil Conners
botched quote fixed ... and really no need for the red color ... see forum rules/netiquette