REUTERS Brings Red-Shirt Villages To Light

[jdinasia]

The issue wasn't my use or misuse of "britts ..." (the UK does not have "A constitution") in the post quoted I suggested I might be wrong about that --- so that isn't an issue either....

People were trying to make a case (incorrectly) that the title "subjects" commonly used for UK citizens was the appropriate title for Thais --- it is off-topic -- and wrong due to article 3 of the Thai constitution.

Now --- back to the Reuters article about some villages in the NE of Thailand that show some serious 'indoctrination' issues .... are these the results of Thida's "schools"?

[Phatcharanan]

"The campaign platforms of both sides are trying to deal with Thailand's widening wealth gap. The richest 20 percent of Thais earn 55 percent of the country's wealth. That figure is close to Tunisia's, the epicentre of the "Arab spring" uprisings, where the top fifth take in 47 percent of the wealth, according to World Bank statistics."

Quote:

MM: What portion of the wealth is owned by the upper groups?

Wolff: The top 5 percent own more than half of all wealth.

In 1998, they owned 59 percent of all wealth. Or to put it another way, the top 5 percent had more wealth than the remaining 95 percent of the population, collectively.

The top 20 percent owns over 80 percent of all wealth. In 1998, it owned 83 percent of all wealth.

Country?

America. I don't see them having an 'Arab Spring'........do you?

Author is Edward Wolffe, Professor of Economics @ New York University.

I am pretty certain that similar figures apply to several European countries too.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Phatcharanan

[webfact]

Red-shirt villages no cause for paranoia, says Red Sunday leader

By PRAVIT ROJANAPHRUK

THE NATION

The authorities should not be paranoid about the setting up of hundreds of so-called "red-shirt villages" in the Northeast, said Red Sunday leader Sombat Boon-ngam-anong, who first floated the idea late last year.

The scheme is merely a symbolic gesture showing that red shirts will not melt away despite the deadly crackdown which led to the deaths of 92 people in April and May last year, he said.

The remark came after Reuters news agency reported on Tuesday that at least 320 villages had been designated "red-shirt villages", complete with signs and flags, in Udon Thani and Khon Kaen provinces.

The story led to more reports about red-shirt villages elsewhere and discussion about whether the move was tantamount to a declaration of independence from the state.

Other red-shirt leaders denied allegations that armed training was taking place.

Sombat said the public should see the move in the context of the protests last year, when the red shirts were crushed and forbidden from gathering politically by the emergency decree. He said the setting up of such a "symbolic space" was merely a challenge that said "red shirts are not going to fade away".

"This is not a declaration of independence. The idea doesn't go that far," said Sombat, who refused to take credit for selling the idea to red shirts during a visit upcountry late last year.

"But [the authorities] can always claim otherwise as they have branded reds as being anti-monarchist and communist," said Sombat. Perhaps less self-publicity by the red shirts in the Northeast might be better for the upcoming election, he added.

Mahidol University human-rights lecturer Sirote Klampaiboon said the state was "too paranoid", as other groups such as the Santi Asoke religious group had also declared their communities to be special zones.

Sirote accused the state of wanting to paint the red shirts as a threat to national security, however. "The problem is, the meaning is inserted by others. Being a red shirt is something the government has refused to accept," said Sirote.

When asked if declaring a village "red" would make villagers who did not share the same political ideology afraid of expressing their views, Sombat said he would be "sympathetic" in such a situation, though he was not aware of any examples at the moment.

Sirote said it would be "problematic" if there were non-red shirts in a red-shirt village who did not feel free to express their political views.

Matichon newspaper reported yesterday there were also red-shirt villages in Maha Sarakham province and that there were plans to designate some villages in the Southern provinces of Surat Thani and Phang Nga as "red" after the election. Most Southern provinces are traditionally the stronghold of the Democrat Party.

-- The Nation 2011-06-10

[SantiSuk]

Somebody posted a quote:

"The campaign platforms of both sides are trying to deal with Thailand's widening wealth gap. The richest 20 percent of Thais earn 55 percent of the country's wealth. That figure is close to Tunisia's, the epicentre of the "Arab spring" uprisings, where the top fifth take in 47 percent of the wealth, according to World Bank statistics."

If this is supposed to be so inequitable as to convince us that society will break down into Maoist revolution, then you had better take a look at the distribution of wealth in the so-called stable democracies.

In the UK the the top tenth own 53% of the wealth (Wikepedia).

[jackr]

Well, when you're treated like second class citizens in your own country, the logical idea would be to create your own land and be treated like first class citizens.

Agree. I'd be up for the detachment of the 'elephants ear'. Not a lot of good seems to come out of that neck of the woods.

[anterian]

For the full article:

http://uk.reuters.co...E75614C20110607

This paragraph struck me as being at the heart of the problem:

"His son is one of at least 417 people detained in connection with violating an emergency decree during last year's red-shirt protests, according to Human Rights Watch. But none of the thousands of yellow-shirted supporters of the establishment -- who occupied two airports in Bangkok in 2008 for eight days in a campaign to bring down a Thaksin-proxy government -- have been arrested, and Thailand's army did nothing to prevent the airport siege."

reconciliation will never be possible with self evident double standards of law and justice.

[anterian]

You are mistaken as the Great Britain and Northern Ireland does have a constitution.

They don't have "a constitution".

http://en.wikipedia...._United_Kingdom

The wiki page pointed to says

"The constitution of the United Kingdom is the set of laws and principles under which the United Kingdom is governed."

This page

http://en.wikipedia....tional_Monarchy

says the last constitution established in the UK was 1688, that was probably when we Dutch allowed William of Orange to hop over to help our friends across the water and in a way be the last to successfully conquer England, even if they asked for it

Actually the UK does not have a formal documented constitution in the sense that France or America does. Rather it has a constantly evolving constitution based on naval law, Roman law, Anglo Saxon law, common law, precedents and increasingly parliamentary acts. There is currently a proposal that this be consolidated into a formal constitution, opponents of this proposal argue that the ability to evolve is one of its strengths. Supporters of the proposal say it will clarify many grey areas in law.

Both are right

[hanuman1]

Well? What have they done? C'mon, name one thing the puppet government have actually 'done to alleviate the burden of poverty on the poor in this country? c'mon, ONE thing.

The 500B/month old-age pension ?

Subsidies on diesel-fuel ?

Doing-away with the 30B hospital-visit charge ?

Raising the minimum-wage ?

I could go on ... but for some strange reason, some people can't accept that the Democrat-led coalition has been helping the poor, over the past couple of years. There seems a strange (and false) impression that only Thaksin/TRT/PPP/PTP can deliver these sorts of policies.

If these measures have been successfully adopted and, crucially, have been perceived by those they intend to help as being indeed an improvement to their lives, one would imagine that the Dems will be poaching a substantial number of ex-PTP/PPP/et al voters in the provinces during the elections.

Happy days for Abhisit!

[newermonkey]

Unfortunately an artical like this is too complex and too polite for most red shirts to understand, they (red shirts) will take it as a green light from the western press written in favor of Taksin, whereas its not.

[OzMick]

I'm not sure if this article is saying that some kind of segregation is being proposed by some faction of the red shirt movement.

It apparently stops short of saying that but may be implying it. If it were indeed the case that these people officially wanted segregated areas based along political lines (or any other lines for that matter), that would be a very disturbing move on their part.

Well, when you're treated like second class citizens in your own country, the logical idea would be to create your own land and be treated like first class citizens. Not that I agree with it, but it's true.

The perception that the countryside is ignored by Bangkok has been festering for several years now. It doesn't matter whether it is true or not, but this is a perception that will not go away. If this perception doesn't go away, there are quite a few countries nearby that show what can happen if the pressure on the pot is allowed to make it go bang. Whether the reds want it to go bang, I am not entirely sure, because the implications are really quite scary, but looking at the way the Dems are trying to court the countryside with their policies, they are trying more than ever. The problem I fear is that it is too little too late.

It will go bang if Yingluk gets a popular mandate and the elite in Bangkok cheat her out of her rightful position of Prime minister I hope they are wise enough to understand the consequences of their cheating but I don't hold up much hope.

If PTP gets the highest vote (say 40%) but the Dems (35%), BJT, Chart Thai and some lesser parties who won't accept a Thaksin amnesty (16%) form a gov't, is that cheating Yingluk out of her popular mandate and rightful position, or is it actually democracy working as it should? And if the ignorami listen to Nuttawat and head for BKK (again), what do you think will happen?

[whybother]

If PTP gets the highest vote (say 40%) but the Dems (35%), BJT, Chart Thai and some lesser parties who won't accept a Thaksin amnesty (16%) form a gov't, is that cheating Yingluk out of her popular mandate and rightful position, or is it actually democracy working as it should? And if the ignorami listen to Nuttawat and head for BKK (again), what do you think will happen?

The red shirts have already promised to hit the streets if that happens.

They are fighting for democracy. It would be good if they understood it.

[OzMick]

For the full article:

http://uk.reuters.co...E75614C20110607

This paragraph struck me as being at the heart of the problem:

"His son is one of at least 417 people detained in connection with violating an emergency decree during last year's red-shirt protests, according to Human Rights Watch. But none of the thousands of yellow-shirted supporters of the establishment -- who occupied two airports in Bangkok in 2008 for eight days in a campaign to bring down a Thaksin-proxy government -- have been arrested, and Thailand's army did nothing to prevent the airport siege."

reconciliation will never be possible with self evident double standards of law and justice.

You may not have noticed, but they didn't burn the bloody airport, they just occupied it. If you consider trespassing and arson as crimes of equal severity, then yes, double standards have been applied - but you would have to be brainwashed to do so. Poor little Kittipong, who left school at 15 to express his love of democracy by burning a building or two is going to spend some time behind bars - som non na!

Edited June 10, 2011 by OzMick

[anterian]

For the full article:

http://uk.reuters.co...E75614C20110607

This paragraph struck me as being at the heart of the problem:

"His son is one of at least 417 people detained in connection with violating an emergency decree during last year's red-shirt protests, according to Human Rights Watch. But none of the thousands of yellow-shirted supporters of the establishment -- who occupied two airports in Bangkok in 2008 for eight days in a campaign to bring down a Thaksin-proxy government -- have been arrested, and Thailand's army did nothing to prevent the airport siege."

reconciliation will never be possible with self evident double standards of law and justice.

You may not have noticed, but they didn't burn the bloody airport, they just occupied it. If you consider trespassing and arson as crimes of equal severity, then yes, double standards have been applied - but you would have to be brainwashed to do so. Poor little Kittipong, who left school at 15 to express his love of democracy by burning a building or two is going to spend some time behind bars - som non na!

A typical blind response, it is nothing to do with the severity of the offense, an offense is an offense. Some offenders are punished, some are not. This is double standards whether you accept it or not.

[whybother]

A typical blind response, it is nothing to do with the severity of the offense, an offense is an offense. Some offenders are punished, some are not. This is double standards whether you accept it or not.

Should people who get caught dropping litter have to go to jail too? Maybe people who burn down buildings should get a fine similar to dropping litter.

After all, an offense is an offense.

[anterian]

A typical blind response, it is nothing to do with the severity of the offense, an offense is an offense. Some offenders are punished, some are not. This is double standards whether you accept it or not.

Should people who get caught dropping litter have to go to jail too? Maybe people who burn down buildings should get a fine similar to dropping litter.

After all, an offense is an offense.

Is this stupid response season, do people just bash of retorts before they start to think. Dropping litter is not a criminal offence. Arson and seizure of an International airport are.

[OzMick]

A typical blind response, it is nothing to do with the severity of the offense, an offense is an offense. Some offenders are punished, some are not. This is double standards whether you accept it or not.

Should people who get caught dropping litter have to go to jail too? Maybe people who burn down buildings should get a fine similar to dropping litter.

After all, an offense is an offense.

Is this stupid response season, do people just bash of retorts before they start to think. Dropping litter is not a criminal offence. Arson and seizure of an International airport are.

Aren't the yellows who occupied the airport being prosecuted now? The difference is they were given bail for a RELATIVELY MINOR offence, with no violence. Please don't accept that, just keep ranting "double standards, double standards", it's highly amusing.

[whybother]

Is this stupid response season, do people just bash of retorts before they start to think. Dropping litter is not a criminal offence. Arson and seizure of an International airport are.

The point is arson and "seizure of an international airport" are not the same offence, so the offenders are treated differently.

The protest at the airport was no different to the protests every month at Ratchaprasong. They both inconvenience people and they both cause owners/managers to close businesses.

Yellow shirt protesters have been charged for various offences related to the airport protests, and they are being processed through the courts.

[spacemand]

begin removed ...

They otherwise know absolutely nothing of what Abbhisit, representing the 'old establishment' actually stand for, given that they've been 'in' for two years, and , done sod all. Lots and LOTS of words, but as yet no action. None.

... end removed

The PM Abhisit government has been 'in' for 2-1/2 years. During many months they have been almost under siege by protesters, violent thugs and terrorists, and of course those peace-loving UDD members and other red-shirts. Furthermore every move the government tried to make was delayed by the PTP opposition questioning every single letter in a new law, measure (can the gov. do this, can they do this now, shouldn't at least a few more courts rule on the legality, etc., etc.) It's almost a miracle the government got anything done.

How did they get into power? I remember something about a closing of an airport near Bangkok, were it violent compared to what happened last year no but if the army/police had moved in to clear the airport it would have turned out the same way.

I am not taking sides but if you look at the situation in Thailand from the outside without taking sides you will realize that both sides is equally fracked up and after the election the same problems will still exist, no matter who wins the other side will not accept defeat and we will have the same old things happen again just at a larger scale.

[ianf]

I think the Army is out of it . If anything was learned from the 2006 coup, it was that the Army cannot run the country. They know that themselves. What MAY happen if PTP comes to power is that they will stand aside as the people storm Parliament while PTP tries to get amnesty legislation through. The amnesty will not happen IMO

I don't agree. They were very very close to coming out during the red shirt protests, particularly when it all started going down burning the city halls up country.

As for believing that they learnt anything from the mess of the last coup. Since when did any supposedly experienced Thai organisation admit that they have ever done anything wrong in the past, let alone an organisation with its own armories. This new bunch will probably see it as a challenge to do it better than the last lot. This is the army, so you are commanded to do it, you don't stand around and answer "but, you know, the last time, all the political scientists of the world said we screwed it up".

Don't underestimate how much some of these people actually despise Thaksin and what they think he may be capable of doing. They are absolutely paranoid about him.

Yes, they are paranoid about him not just because of his personal power but because of the global movement of which he is a part. The hierarchy in this country know a lot more and there is a frission of fear running down the corridors of power. We are dealing with a global colour revolution of which the reds (unknowingly to the masses) are a part. Getting rid of those at the top of the establishment is part of the agenda (have we not seen that in Libya, Egypt and so on???). The red movement will stop at nothing and those who disregard or do not understand the nature of this threat may well be in for a surprise when the reds seize power here. I think there is ample evidence of how easily the Isaan farmers have been manipulated and the shame of it is they will be dumped (and their kids will not get their laptops) as they are just cannon fodder for a larger agenda.

[anterian]

Is this stupid response season, do people just bash of retorts before they start to think. Dropping litter is not a criminal offence. Arson and seizure of an International airport are.

The point is arson and "seizure of an international airport" are not the same offence, so the offenders are treated differently.

The protest at the airport was no different to the protests every month at Ratchaprasong. They both inconvenience people and they both cause owners/managers to close businesses.

Yellow shirt protesters have been charged for various offences related to the airport protests, and they are being processed through the courts.

There is such a thing as time scale, PAD offenders nearly 3 years later still on bail, Red shirt offenders, banged away like greased lightning

Incidentally the seizure of the airport in International law was much more criminal than some arson.

Further which of the two actions did the most economic harm

Further still it was not just one airport but several around the country.

The reds are not angels but don't try and say the yellows are, nor that justice is equal.

[jdinasia]

Is this stupid response season, do people just bash of retorts before they start to think. Dropping litter is not a criminal offence. Arson and seizure of an International airport are.

The point is arson and "seizure of an international airport" are not the same offence, so the offenders are treated differently.

The protest at the airport was no different to the protests every month at Ratchaprasong. They both inconvenience people and they both cause owners/managers to close businesses.

Yellow shirt protesters have been charged for various offences related to the airport protests, and they are being processed through the courts.

There is such a thing as time scale, PAD offenders nearly 3 years later still on bail, Red shirt offenders, banged away like greased lightning

Incidentally the seizure of the airport in International law was much more criminal than some arson.

Further which of the two actions did the most economic harm

Further still it was not just one airport but several around the country.

The reds are not angels but don't try and say the yellows are, nor that justice is equal.

HUH?

The offenders in the 2007 riot at Prems house ... haven't been brought to trial. The offenders in 2 of several cases surrounding the PAD in 2008 have already been convicted.

Incidentally ---- your claims about International law/Airports/mass arson etc are not factual --- they are opinion.

Which actions DID do the most harm financially? I would say the reds. It is anyone's guess as financial harm is hard to judge. If you mean financial harm in actual damage to buildings/busses etc -- the reds did more in 2009 alone.

The PAD aren't angels --- they just are by far less violent and their leaders kept them under control.

(BTW -- comparing arrests and time spent in jail between them --- well the PAD folks turned themselves in and were granted bail (under a Thaksin administration for the most part-- not that that matters). On the other hand the reds were mostly captured and arrested --- that there are still some poor reds in jail tells more about the reds than it does about justice. The reds had rallies to get the leaders out on bail but left their cannon fodder to rot, or for propaganda purposes. Arisaman STILL is a fugitive --- but then again so is his boss Thaksin.

[animatic]

For the full article:

http://uk.reuters.co...E75614C20110607

This paragraph struck me as being at the heart of the problem:

"His son is one of at least 417 people detained in connection with violating an emergency decree during last year's red-shirt protests, according to Human Rights Watch. But none of the thousands of yellow-shirted supporters of the establishment -- who occupied two airports in Bangkok in 2008 for eight days in a campaign to bring down a Thaksin-proxy government -- have been arrested, and Thailand's army did nothing to prevent the airport siege."

reconciliation will never be possible with self evident double standards of law and justice.

You may not have noticed, but they didn't burn the bloody airport, they just occupied it. If you consider trespassing and arson as crimes of equal severity, then yes, double standards have been applied - but you would have to be brainwashed to do so. Poor little Kittipong, who left school at 15 to express his love of democracy by burning a building or two is going to spend some time behind bars - som non na!

A typical blind response, it is nothing to do with the severity of the offense, an offense is an offense. Some offenders are punished, some are not. This is double standards whether you accept it or not.

Some offenses are prosecuted faster than others in all nations.

[whybother]

There is such a thing as time scale, PAD offenders nearly 3 years later still on bail, Red shirt offenders, banged away like greased lightning

Incidentally the seizure of the airport in International law was much more criminal than some arson.

Further which of the two actions did the most economic harm

Further still it was not just one airport but several around the country.

The reds are not angels but don't try and say the yellows are, nor that justice is equal.

Did they seize the airport, or did they protest in front of it and cause it to be closed? They didn't go in there and take hostages.

I don't know which one did more economic harm. I have seen a "full" figure for the airport but only bits and pieces for the red shirt protests.

IMO, the red shirt protests did more harm longer term to the country. Having grenades thrown at civilians is certainly going to make people think twice about investing or visiting.

The airport protest was similar to a baggage handlers strike, or farmers blocking train tunnels.

People need to be charged over it, but people sitting at an airport is a lot different to people burning down buildings.

[jdinasia]

A typical blind response, it is nothing to do with the severity of the offense, an offense is an offense. Some offenders are punished, some are not. This is double standards whether you accept it or not.

Correct -- an offense is an offense. So far I see some on all sides being punished. You might want to research when the phrase "double standards" first started being used in Thailand. I'll even point you in the right direction --- Thaksin 2001

[anterian]

A typical blind response, it is nothing to do with the severity of the offense, an offense is an offense. Some offenders are punished, some are not. This is double standards whether you accept it or not.

Correct -- an offense is an offense. So far I see some on all sides being punished. You might want to research when the phrase "double standards" first started being used in Thailand. I'll even point you in the right direction --- Thaksin 2001

Is it wishful thinking or do I sense a slight convergence? Whilst everyone seems agreed that the red activists were wicked people, they are reluctant to admit that the yellow activists were just as bad. The airport takeover was not a like a baggage handlers strike. it was not just a friendly tea party, the airport was entered and occupied, suspected red sympathisers were grabbed and beaten, guns were waved and fired from the back of a pickup truck. You are going to ask me for proof, well go and find it yourself, I don't need it. Look in Youtube during those times, search the video archives of the western media, listen to the eye witness accounts of the trapped passengers.

Economic loss, well according to my friends in the tourist industry the reds and yellows are pretty neck and neck. But speak to the exporters and importers, this is where the real economic loss occurred, at the airport. The main sufferers from the arson were the insurance companies, by declaring it a criminal act rather than a civil conflict it was covered.

As to double standards, I seem to recollect a well known Greek philosopher of hemlock drinking fame who used this expression... in Greek of course

Stop portraying the reds as the sole cause of Thailand's problems, stop portraying Abhisit as God's gift to the nation, and we might be much near to a consensus.

There seem to be too many threads with overlapping topics, perhaps inevitable, and I seem to be arguing with same handful of people in each thread Can't someone simplify this, start a combination thread, " the case for and against Thaksin and the case for and against Abhisit"? I would but I don't know how

[whybother]

Is it wishful thinking or do I sense a slight convergence? Whilst everyone seems agreed that the red activists were wicked people, they are reluctant to admit that the yellow activists were just as bad. The airport takeover was not a like a baggage handlers strike. it was not just a friendly tea party, the airport was entered and occupied, suspected red sympathisers were grabbed and beaten, guns were waved and fired from the back of a pickup truck. You are going to ask me for proof, well go and find it yourself, I don't need it. Look in Youtube during those times, search the video archives of the western media, listen to the eye witness accounts of the trapped passengers.

Now you're making things up. Red sympathisers beaten at the airport? That one I'd like to see mentioned in the newspapers somewhere, if you can find it.

The guns being waved and fired from the back of a pick up truck wasn't at the airport. That was at Vipavardi-Rangsit and nothing to do with the protests at the airport.

Economic loss, well according to my friends in the tourist industry the reds and yellows are pretty neck and neck. But speak to the exporters and importers, this is where the real economic loss occurred, at the airport. The main sufferers from the arson were the insurance companies, by declaring it a criminal act rather than a civil conflict it was covered.

As to double standards, I seem to recollect a well known Greek philosopher of hemlock drinking fame who used this expression... in Greek of course

Stop portraying the reds as the sole cause of Thailand's problems, stop portraying Abhisit as God's gift to the nation, and we might be much near to a consensus.

There seem to be too many threads with overlapping topics, perhaps inevitable, and I seem to be arguing with same handful of people in each thread Can't someone simplify this, start a combination thread, " the case for and against Thaksin and the case for and against Abhisit"? I would but I don't know how

I don't think the reds are the sole cause of Thailand's problems, but they are an ongoing problem - attacking Prem in 2007, attacking the yellow shirts in 2008, Songkran 2009, and of course, the 2010 protests, and I'm sure that won't be the last we see of them, regardless of the result of the elections. They will be out again if PTP don't get into government and will be out hassling anti-Thaksin protesters if the PTP do get into government.

The yellow shirts have done their fair share of illegal things, but that hasn't included lobbing grenades, using a well armed militia, or burning down buildings.

Abhisit isn't "God's gift to the nation", but he's certainly better than anything PTP have to offer.

[hanuman1]

Is it wishful thinking or do I sense a slight convergence? Whilst everyone seems agreed that the red activists were wicked people, they are reluctant to admit that the yellow activists were just as bad. The airport takeover was not a like a baggage handlers strike. it was not just a friendly tea party, the airport was entered and occupied, suspected red sympathisers were grabbed and beaten, guns were waved and fired from the back of a pickup truck. You are going to ask me for proof, well go and find it yourself, I don't need it. Look in Youtube during those times, search the video archives of the western media, listen to the eye witness accounts of the trapped passengers.

Now you're making things up. Red sympathisers beaten at the airport? That one I'd like to see mentioned in the newspapers somewhere, if you can find it.

The guns being waved and fired from the back of a pick up truck wasn't at the airport. That was at Vipavardi-Rangsit and nothing to do with the protests at the airport.

Economic loss, well according to my friends in the tourist industry the reds and yellows are pretty neck and neck. But speak to the exporters and importers, this is where the real economic loss occurred, at the airport. The main sufferers from the arson were the insurance companies, by declaring it a criminal act rather than a civil conflict it was covered.

As to double standards, I seem to recollect a well known Greek philosopher of hemlock drinking fame who used this expression... in Greek of course

Stop portraying the reds as the sole cause of Thailand's problems, stop portraying Abhisit as God's gift to the nation, and we might be much near to a consensus.

There seem to be too many threads with overlapping topics, perhaps inevitable, and I seem to be arguing with same handful of people in each thread Can't someone simplify this, start a combination thread, " the case for and against Thaksin and the case for and against Abhisit"? I would but I don't know how

I don't think the reds are the sole cause of Thailand's problems, but they are an ongoing problem - attacking Prem in 2007, attacking the yellow shirts in 2008, Songkran 2009, and of course, the 2010 protests, and I'm sure that won't be the last we see of them, regardless of the result of the elections. They will be out again if PTP don't get into government and will be out hassling anti-Thaksin protesters if the PTP do get into government.

The yellow shirts have done their fair share of illegal things, but that hasn't included lobbing grenades, using a well armed militia, or burning down buildings.

Abhisit isn't "God's gift to the nation", but he's certainly better than anything PTP have to offer.

I seem to remember there being quite a well armed militia preventing authorities from dislodging protesters at the airport, but let's not quibble about silly details.

[whybother]

I seem to remember there being quite a well armed militia preventing authorities from dislodging protesters at the airport, but let's not quibble about silly details.

Armed with what?

[jdinasia]

A typical blind response, it is nothing to do with the severity of the offense, an offense is an offense. Some offenders are punished, some are not. This is double standards whether you accept it or not.

Correct -- an offense is an offense. So far I see some on all sides being punished. You might want to research when the phrase "double standards" first started being used in Thailand. I'll even point you in the right direction --- Thaksin 2001

Is it wishful thinking or do I sense a slight convergence? Whilst everyone seems agreed that the red activists were wicked people, they are reluctant to admit that the yellow activists were just as bad. The airport takeover was not a like a baggage handlers strike. it was not just a friendly tea party, the airport was entered and occupied, suspected red sympathisers were grabbed and beaten, guns were waved and fired from the back of a pickup truck. You are going to ask me for proof, well go and find it yourself, I don't need it. Look in Youtube during those times, search the video archives of the western media, listen to the eye witness accounts of the trapped passengers.

Economic loss, well according to my friends in the tourist industry the reds and yellows are pretty neck and neck. But speak to the exporters and importers, this is where the real economic loss occurred, at the airport. The main sufferers from the arson were the insurance companies, by declaring it a criminal act rather than a civil conflict it was covered.

As to double standards, I seem to recollect a well known Greek philosopher of hemlock drinking fame who used this expression... in Greek of course

Stop portraying the reds as the sole cause of Thailand's problems, stop portraying Abhisit as God's gift to the nation, and we might be much near to a consensus.

There seem to be too many threads with overlapping topics, perhaps inevitable, and I seem to be arguing with same handful of people in each thread Can't someone simplify this, start a combination thread, " the case for and against Thaksin and the case for and against Abhisit"? I would but I don't know how

Yes .. a guy on the back of a truck on the way to the airport fired a pistol (after having stuff thrown at them -- in light of the grenade attacks that occurred on ((for awhile) an almost daily basis ---perhaps justifiable --). He should go to jail if he hasn't already. Basically though the airport rally WAS just a teaparty (except for more of those grenade attacks) --- The PAD guards and leaders have charges pending. There was an unexplained (so far) death as well as the death and injuries from the grenade attacks at the airport. They have appeared to face those charges. They are not looking for an amnesty. They aren't angels -- they don't pretend to be --- they are getting convicted. (TV station takeover and the bus 'hijacking').

The reds ARE by far (and yes I mean by tradition etc .. well and away by far) more violent. They were violent in 2007 --- 2008----- 2009 ---- 2010 (and 2011 isn't finished yet) The fact that it is almost always the reds that escalate the violence is inescapable. 2007 Prem's house -- red riot -- nobody in jail yet. 2008-- attacked the PAD at Gov't house (Sept 2nd -- one red died ---Samak got to call for a SOE. 2009--- Pattaya and BKK burnt busses, gas tanker at an apartment block etc .. attacking the PM's car ....2010 escalating at the army barracks and ThaiCom leading to the crackdown where they used more war weapons including grenade launchers ... (2008-2010 grenade attacks all over) 2009 dragging the father of a radio operator out of a car and killing him in Chiang Mai ... attacks in Udon Thani and Chiang Mai .. stopping Dr's on the way to work at upcountry hospitals and illegally detaining them while they search vehicles. Burnt out government buildings upcountry.

To lay the damages of the massive arson attacks off as damage to the insurance companies is disingenuous at the very least ----- How many people lost jobs etc --- how much damage wasn't covered by insurance ... and the worst thing was seeing BKK burning (upcountry too) on the news for days and days. That damage is very different publicly across the world than the airport shutdown. The airport should never have been surrendered by the AOT chief on the ground (so says the AOT board of directors). The fact that Thaksin was the reason for all of this happening should not be lost on people. His bro-in-law was trying to manage to whitewash Thaksin and the PAD went to the airport to meet his plane (and Don Mueang too, in case his flight was diverted there .... so Somchai diverted to Chiang Mai.

We could look at the aftermath of Government house and the airports and compare things --- the PAD paid for the cleanup at Gov't house and the airports weren't looted and burnt ...... in fact I am unaware of any of the shops including King Power claiming loss of stock. Controlled, calm, by-and-large non-violent even in the face of violence. The aftermath of each red action --- burning, deaths, threats, violence .... As groups they really are hard to compare.

The term "double standards" was used in Thailand when Thaksin was acquitted in a very narrow vote for hiding assets in the name of his housekeeper/driver etc ....

Abhisit shouldn't come into the discussion of Red/Yellow ---- but by comparison to Thaksin he is a gift to the nation. Rational,prudent, slow to react as opposed to being reactionary, etc etc etc ... If you want to talk about Abhisit then we should be talking about Samak, Somchai, and mostly Thaksin.

This very thread is about 2 soldiers being threatened with guns in a district on the edge of bkk ---- they weren't threatened by the PAD ... yet again it was the reds.

[jdinasia]

I seem to remember there being quite a well armed militia preventing authorities from dislodging protesters at the airport, but let's not quibble about silly details.

Armed with what?

Really!? I don't remember that either ---- nor do I see any reports of it from sources online ("a quite well armed militia" that is) I do not doubt that there were some people there that were armed, in particular the body-guards for the core leaders.