Do I Need A Work Permit?

[Abyss]

If i am living in Asia probably based in Thailand, but also travelling around other parts of Asia buying products and exporting them for an English based company, which i will also be a partner of. Do i need a work permit as i will be employed by the company in u.k?

[Indo-Siam]

As a practical matter, you are not eligible for a work permit, and you have little need for one. You can rent an apartment, set up a savings account, and operate from Bangkok. Your limitations are that you cannot obtain certain authorizations (cannot get a driver's license, cannot open a checking account), and you cannot routinely stay in Thailand longer than 30 days at a time. You also cannot sign binding contracts, and you have only the legal "standing" of a tourist.

It is VERY unlikely that you will face any difficulties, given that you are supporting a cause near and dear to Thailand's heart - exports.

The biggest threat to you would be a (very possible) crackdown on use of multiple, consecutive, 30 day entry upon arrival stamps - but as you would be spending some time outside Thailand each trip, requirements designed to discourage endless border turns ("walkers") would possibly not apply to you. You can deal with any new requirements as they unfold.

Good luck!

Indo-Siam

[Abyss]

thanks indo-siam

[singa-traz]

What about that supplier from which you did not buy new products and learn about you ordering lots from their competitors ? ... he can't find the tel number of the labour dept ?

Of course, this is VERY unlikely ...

[Indo-Siam]

On any given day, perhaps 3,000 to 10,000 foreign businessmen with 30 day entries on arrival use hotel business centers in Thailand to coordinate some aspect of their overseas firm's business activities with Thailand. Maybe a third are involved with some aspects of sourcing products from Thailand. Most of these situations involve competing suppliers - most of whom lose.

Run the numbers. Maybe I'm off by a big percentage.

When you start hearing about businessmen in hotel business centers - or at trade shows - being busted for working without a work permit - then it will be time to worry. Also probably time to buy a snowblower in Thailand.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

[singa-traz]

Indo-Siam, I fully agree with you !

It is extremely unlikely that he will face any problem ...

But as a professional, you should also point to him that according to Thai Law, and you know more than most of us on this topic ... according to THAI LAW, he SHOULD HAVE a work permit.

So, it does not matter how many plane full of businessmen land on a daily basis ... The LAW does not change with a higher number ...

Yes, like the Million++ businessmen who visit Thailand every year on a 30 days Tourist visa, he can certainly conduct his business without a work permit ... as it is not practical to follow the WP rule for this type of activities.

But unlike most of the flying businessmen, he will be based in Thailand, so ... why not recommending him to setup a company here ?

... And if you stay more than 180 days in Thailand you become a tax resident, and should pay tax for the amount of money earned abroad that you would be transfering to Thailand (http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6000.0.html) ... but of course, I heard somewhere that he could easily avoid this ...

A while ago, you could extend your tourist visa by flying your passport out of the country, but this service has been discountinued ...

Indo-siam, I thought helping people setting up company in Thailand was one of the services your company offers ...

(I think I scared the guy, and sure he will call you ... as agreed 10% ... )

[Indo-Siam]

All right - here is the REAL deal story. There is a provision for doing "temporary" work inside Thailand - not receiving any local pay, and being employed by a firm outside Thailand.

The process uses a special form - Form 11 - see: Form 11 - Urgent Work Permit

It is good for 15 days, and can be processed at any Labor Department office - and you can have any type of entry permit - including a 30 day "on arrival." There is no government fee.

My company charges 1,500 baht to run one of these through the system. I welcome business from any and all who wish to sleep more soundly at night.

The key point to all this is the wording "There is no government fee." This means that this process generates no revenue. It is "unneccessary" work for the folks at the labor office, with no reward. They would rather read comic books. So - they could care less whether you come in and apply or not. And - as a result - they do not enforce this provision.

I frankly have serious doubts every time I hear of someone picked up by the Thai police for a labor department violation. My personal thought is that everyone who claims to have seen this is a liar. What does happen is that foreigners are picked up by regular Police for OTHER illegal activity, and then a work permit violation is added to the charge list, as part of the Police building a systematic case against someone.

I have been living in Thailand for almost four years - I have been through many situations - including several encounters with Police, with me both with and without a work permit, and including spending a few hours in Lumpini Police station (without a work permit) - and I've also appeared in Labor Court as a defendant (employer) - and lost - and I've been to Labor Ministry many times, and I've never yet seen a policeman with jurisdication over work permit violations. Certainly street policemen do not ask for work permits. I've even been shaken down by an Immigration inspector (vetting my first one-year extended entry permit) - and - although he checked everything else - including making me muster my employees - he never asked to see my work permit booklet.

Everyone makes a big deal about "the boys in brown are going to come gather you up" for minor violations. This is also mostly rubbish. Thai police might gather you up if they have court-worthy evidence that you have committed a crime. Well, a visitor sitting at an internet cafe, or shopping at Chatuchak, or talking on his handphone, or mailing package at a DHL Office, or sending a FAX at a hotel business center, or withdrawing funds at an ATM machine, or getting out of a taxi at a factory - well- even if a video camera was rolling for all of this, the combined footage would not constitute convincing evidence of a crime having been committed, in a Thai court. Thai Police know this -and therefore.........

....when we talk about "extremely unlikely" we are talking in the same range of likelihood as the likelihood of 50 cm of snow falling on Bangkok any time soon.

Hey - Happy New Year!!!!!!!!

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[singa-traz]

Happy New Year too !

I have been around Thailand for almost 10 years ... and I still do not know anybody who got caught for WP issues ... but in ALL the companies (small or big)where I had foreigner friends working, there have been threats of contacting the Labor department for WP related questions ... mostly due to labor issues (Thai or Foreigner) or even difficult customers ...

I have been told it's not a nice feeling to be told to stay home today, and to be prepared to take the first flight out of the country ...

But, for a one-man show operation ... who cares, rigth ?

The many 30 days Visa Stamps on his passport might get more attention ...

Cheers

[Indo-Siam]

I think most people greatly overestimate their ability to set the Thai bureacratic juggernaut into motion.

Knowing what it takes to explain to Pizza Hut in Bangkok what type of pizza I want, and where I want it delivered - I am quite certain that most farang (and many Thais) are beyond cluseless as to how to track down the right place to call - or office to visit (but they all know to dial 1112 for a pizza!). And if they could reach someone who cared - their ability to clearly transmit an actionable complaint would be just about nil.

Hey - singa-traz - you're a bright lad, and you've probably got some Thai associates. So - let's run a hypothetical test case. You want to NAIL MY DEAD BUTT TO THE WALL for working without a work permit.

Please determine the seven digit phone number - following the Bangkok city prefix of 02 - to reach someone who would care.

To help, here are two applicable websites:

www.doe.go.th and http://www.doe.go.th/workpermit/index.html

All I want is the precise phone number you would call to get someone to come out and bust me.

It's just not that easy.

'Probably easier to find/hire a Chonburi "motorcycle-mounted behavioral counselor" to sort out a problem farang, than it is to get someone collared for a Labor Department violation.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

[Abyss]

Happy new year!!

so....... I can get a "temporary" work permit which is only good for 15 days and is freeof charge. But because it is free, the work permit office doesn't care much for these. As i will be staying in asia for a year or so, travelling back and forth to thailand, the "15 day temporary work permit" will need to be renewed allot?

You say if i don't have a work permit there is no big deal as i am not actually employed in thailand, but work for a foriegn company and i will be on a long business trip.

I spoke to someone a while ago about working in thailand and he told me if i got caught without a work permit, even if i was only helping someone for 5 minutes, i could get kicked out of the country with a "10 year no return" stamp on my passport.

So you think i will be o.k without any legal document?

[Indo-Siam]

It is not for me to make decisions for you.

You have four options:

1. Stop you activity. You eliminate all risk.

2. Proceed with you activities without any documents. As long as you have no customers inside Thailand, I would rate your likelihood of encountering trouble at about 0.01%.

3. Proceed with activities, and get a Form 11 permit each time you reenter Thailand. If you use my firm to supply and process the form for you, the cost is 1,500 baht per entry. You now become fully legal.

4. Create your own employment here - register a company, get an office, four Thai employees, bank account, work permit, entry permit extension,etc. Then you are bulletproof.

The status quo always "wins" by default - so if you do nothing (the "deer in the headlights" scenario) - you are effectively "choosing" alternative #2.

Good luck!

Indo-Siam

[netkoala]

Can XM co papers help with year long visas ?