Thai Language

[doxxie]

Is it logical language or it has many exceptions? Is it phoenetic like the Mandarin or pronunciation is easy if you're American? Any good tapes to self learn? Questions... questions... thank you

[wolfmanjack]

Not easy for this american to learn. I guess at meaning based on the conversation instead of the way i hear the word. I know about 600 words but mispronounce most of them. i am told that I speak much better thai when i am drunk than i do when I am sober.

[meadish_sweetball]

FSI has a list comparing average difficulty of learning various languages for US Americans. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Language_Learning_Difficulty_for_English_Speakers Thai is not in the most difficult category, but is in the next most difficult category, and marked with a *, indicating that typically it is more difficult than the other languages listed in the same category. Do not be discouraged though. It is fully possible to learn Thai, but if you don't have a general knack for languages you will have to work hard. As with any skill, regular and persistent practice will get you there. A little time spent every day is always better than a lot of time spent on some days. Obviously, difficulty for the individual learner depends on several factors, and language learning consists of several skill areas... no easy answers but a little every day will ensure progress.

[LazyYogi]

FSI has a list comparing average difficulty of learning various languages for US Americans. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Language_Learning_Difficulty_for_English_Speakers Thai is not in the most difficult category, but is in the next most difficult category, and marked with a *, indicating that typically it is more difficult than the other languages listed in the same category. Do not be discouraged though. It is fully possible to learn Thai, but if you don't have a general knack for languages you will have to work hard. As with any skill, regular and persistent practice will get you there. A little time spent every day is always better than a lot of time spent on some days. Obviously, difficulty for the individual learner depends on several factors, and language learning consists of several skill areas... no easy answers but a little every day will ensure progress.

In that list, why is Thai marked with a *, and yet Lao is not? They are both basically dialects of the same language.

For me, the simplicity of Thai grammar far makes up for any difficulties in pronunciation.

Words never change form. They just get moved around. No freaking verb conjugation charts to memorize!

[meadish_sweetball]

I am not sure why that is the case, as I haven't studied Lao formally. Some guesses as to why: Lao has a simplified alphabet and probably (this may be incorrect but it's my hunch) uses fewer words borrowed from Indic languages, making it more transparent.

[R7BKK]

Here's another document from the FSI where some of the difficulty rankings are slightly different:

http://fsitraining.state.gov/training/Language%20Continuum.pdf p. 53

They star both Thai and Lao in this version of the list. Also, the FSI system here is just one opinion on the difficulty of languages. It's by no means perfect and universal. I know several of the languages on this list (to varying degrees) and know enough linguistically about some of the other languages to make an educated guess, and I would disagree with a number of the rankings.

But as meadish_sweetball mentions, every individual is different and there are a lot of different skills that go into learning a language. One man's Greek is another man's Telegu.

For the most part, Thai is a very logical language without a lot of exceptions. Personally, I feel that proper pronunciation is one of the most difficult parts of learning Thai. But it's a fairly commonly studied language (at least compared to a lot of languages on the FSI list) so there are tons of learning materials available -- plenty of books, schools, websites, CDs/DVDs, etc. This webpage has a huge list of free resources: http://womenlearnthai.com/index.php/resources/learning-thai/

[roamer]

There are some good Thai courses out there. Linguaphone is probably the most comprehensive, used on degree courses at SOAS (School of African & Oriental Studies at University of London)and other institutes. Quite academic. Pimsleur, very basic but fine for some. Colloquial Thai is another one. All have their drawbacks.

IMHO its best to steer clear of audio visual methods when learning Thai, the romanisation of the language seems to cause more problems than it solves. Firmly believe that when your learning a language so heavily dependent on tones its best to stick to purely aural methods for learning pronunciation.

Edited June 28, 2011 by roamer

[KunMatt]

Bloody hard!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/457190-what-level-of-speaking-and-writing-thai-are-you-at/

I found Mandarin easy but Thai is hard work. I never studied Mandarin once like I study Thai every day. I still consider myself a beginner trying to pick up all the basics.

The structure is quite simple but the words themself are very complex because the SLIGHTEST difference in sound completely changes the word so your ears really need to be tuned into the language which takes a lot of practice. Also, words that sound the same are used for common things, i.e. "Kao" means rice, white, he/she, to enter, and knee and probably a few other things. All very common every day words that you will hear 100 times daily but mean completely different things.

The tone is critical, for example, "Glai" means near and "Glai" means far. The only difference is the tone, one has a falling tone and the other doesn't! You can imagine how confusing this can get.

What also makes it difficult is that Thais talk so quickly and blur so much of it together that at first it's almost impossible to pick out any words. If they spoke their language like my Thai language CDs are teaching me it would be ok but it's not like that in the real world. It also doesn't help that they do things like use L instead of R when talking cuz Rs are much more effort to pronounce in Thai.

One good thing about Thai is it's quite easy to read and write it, or at least learn the alphabet so you can understand a lot more of your surroundings when you are in Thailand. I could never read a menu in China but after a few days of studying the Thai alphabet I could order off of the menu in Thailand.

[keo]

IMHO its best to steer clear of audio visual methods when learning Thai, the romanisation of the language seems to cause more problems than it solves. Firmly believe that when your learning a language so heavily dependent on tones its best to stick to purely aural methods for learning pronunciation.

That's ludicrous advice! Perhaps you're an auditory learner, but that doesn't mean everyone else is. Everyone learns differently. Find what works for you, and don't expect to get more out than you put in. I found learning to read and write really accelerated my learning. Colours helped me with the tones. That's right colours. Lovely visual colours.

Daniel Tammet recited Pi to 22,000+ decimal places using visual imagery. To disregard visual learning is insane!

[KunMatt]

IMHO its best to steer clear of audio visual methods when learning Thai, the romanisation of the language seems to cause more problems than it solves. Firmly believe that when your learning a language so heavily dependent on tones its best to stick to purely aural methods for learning pronunciation.

That's ludicrous advice! Perhaps you're an auditory learner, but that doesn't mean everyone else is. Everyone learns differently. Find what works for you, and don't expect to get more out than you put in. I found learning to read and write really accelerated my learning. Colours helped me with the tones. That's right colours. Lovely visual colours.

Daniel Tammet recited Pi to 22,000+ decimal places using visual imagery. To disregard visual learning is insane!

I agree. With a complex tonal language just relying on your audio memory retention to learn new vocab seems to be making it hard for yourself. I have to see a lot of words written in Thai to be able to say them properly again. Maybe that's just me.

[meadish_sweetball]

I agree. With a complex tonal language just relying on your audio memory retention to learn new vocab seems to be making it hard for yourself. I have to see a lot of words written in Thai to be able to say them properly again. Maybe that's just me.

No, you're not alone, I am the same. Even now, being functionally fluent and with very decent tone pronunciation that means Thai people understand me perfectly well over the phone (although funnily, but interestingly, my very farang appearance seems to create mental blocks [He is not supposed to be able to speak Thai like that, and I am not supposed to understand what he is saying] when I talk to some Thais in person for the first time). Anyways, back on topic: I need to hear new words several times and repeat them to get them internalized when learning them from everyday life, whereas if I write them down in Thai from the start and spend a minute or two reading the word, saying it aloud and then reading it again, the tone sticks with the word in a much more consistent way.

[rgs2001uk]

I agree. With a complex tonal language just relying on your audio memory retention to learn new vocab seems to be making it hard for yourself. I have to see a lot of words written in Thai to be able to say them properly again. Maybe that's just me.

No, you're not alone, I am the same. Even now, being functionally fluent and with very decent tone pronunciation that means Thai people understand me perfectly well over the phone (although funnily, but interestingly, my very farang appearance seems to create mental blocks [He is not supposed to be able to speak Thai like that, and I am not supposed to understand what he is saying] when I talk to some Thais in person for the first time). Anyways, back on topic: I need to hear new words several times and repeat them to get them internalized when learning them from everyday life, whereas if I write them down in Thai from the start and spend a minute or two reading the word, saying it aloud and then reading it again, the tone sticks with the word in a much more consistent way.

MS wrote,

"my very farang appearance seems to create mental blocks [He is not supposed to be able to speak Thai like that, and I am not supposed to understand what he is saying] when I talk to some Thais in person for the first time)"

I have lost count of the number of times I have went into a mon and pop store and started speaking Thai to some old yai who didnt understand a word, yet the young kid sat beside her repeats verbatim what I have just said, and understands exactly what I want, old yai shuffles off to get what I asked for still shaking her head in disbelief.

[kokesaat]

"I have lost count of the number of times I have went into a mon and pop store and started speaking Thai to some old yai who didnt understand a word, yet the young kid sat beside her repeats verbatim what I have just said, and understands exactly what I want, old yai shuffles off to get what I asked for still shaking her head in disbelief."

Reminds me of when I first learned to read Thai and would ask my wife what a particular word meant. She'd look at me cross-eyed and have to look at the word herself. Later, my teacher buckled down with me on tones and pronunciation....and my wife no longer looks at me cross-eyed. My conversation skills still suck, but generally speaking, when I say something, others understand.

If you think tones/pronunciation might be your problem, try wracking your brain on หักอ่าน ภาษาไทย แบบใหม่ volumes 1-7. A little practice every day, with a Thai speaker, will go a long way to correcting pronunciation/tone problems (assuming you've got the basics down).

[harrry]

I agree. With a complex tonal language just relying on your audio memory retention to learn new vocab seems to be making it hard for yourself. I have to see a lot of words written in Thai to be able to say them properly again. Maybe that's just me.

No, you're not alone, I am the same. Even now, being functionally fluent and with very decent tone pronunciation that means Thai people understand me perfectly well over the phone (although funnily, but interestingly, my very farang appearance seems to create mental blocks [He is not supposed to be able to speak Thai like that, and I am not supposed to understand what he is saying] when I talk to some Thais in person for the first time). Anyways, back on topic: I need to hear new words several times and repeat them to get them internalized when learning them from everyday life, whereas if I write them down in Thai from the start and spend a minute or two reading the word, saying it aloud and then reading it again, the tone sticks with the word in a much more consistent way.

MS wrote,

"my very farang appearance seems to create mental blocks [He is not supposed to be able to speak Thai like that, and I am not supposed to understand what he is saying] when I talk to some Thais in person for the first time)"

I have lost count of the number of times I have went into a mon and pop store and started speaking Thai to some old yai who didnt understand a word, yet the young kid sat beside her repeats verbatim what I have just said, and understands exactly what I want, old yai shuffles off to get what I asked for still shaking her head in disbelief.

Remember Yai did not learn standard Thai at school....she is probbly much more fluent than the kids in their nativive dialect.

[kriswillems]

I can read and understand a few languages, but I am not really good at any language.

From my experience it takes about 3 times longer to reach a certain level in Thai than it takes to reach the same level in a Roman or Germanic language.

In the beginning studying Thai is hard work, but once you can start to see advantages knowing Thai gives you, it's all fun. For a long time it was my main hobby.

I think I'll never become 100% fluent (gave up on that idea a long time ago), but I am pretty happy with the level I've reached. People stopped giving remarks about how good my Thai is (like they did before) and they talk to me at a normal speed without being careful in their word selection. I almost never have to repeat what I said, but sometimes I don't understand some words an I've to derive them from the context (especially when a lot of slang is used).

It took me 7 months to 1 year to be able to read, write and speak schoolbook-Thai. It took me another 3 years to reach the level I am on now (speak and understand most street-Thai).

It will take a least another 10 years before I'll start to completely think in Thai and understand almost every word. Now I think about 15% of the time in Thai, 50% in English and 30% in Dutch. At home I also mix these languages when talking (which looks rather funny because I make many mistakes in all of them).

[Joosesis]

Thanks, kriswillems.... we've all seen you on so many forums for a long time and it was great to hear your story and understand the time it will really take to learn this language!

[roamer]

IMHO its best to steer clear of audio visual methods when learning Thai, the romanisation of the language seems to cause more problems than it solves. Firmly believe that when your learning a language so heavily dependent on tones its best to stick to purely aural methods for learning pronunciation.

That's ludicrous advice! Perhaps you're an auditory learner, but that doesn't mean everyone else is. Everyone learns differently. Find what works for you, and don't expect to get more out than you put in. I found learning to read and write really accelerated my learning. Colours helped me with the tones. That's right colours. Lovely visual colours.

Daniel Tammet recited Pi to 22,000+ decimal places using visual imagery. To disregard visual learning is insane!

I agree. With a complex tonal language just relying on your audio memory retention to learn new vocab seems to be making it hard for yourself. I have to see a lot of words written in Thai to be able to say them properly again. Maybe that's just me.

Think I was misunderstood (in English not Thai, that's a new one)I was referring to the transliteration of Thai as used in audio visual systems. Given the inherent problems in transcribing the Thai language into Roman script I feel its best avoided. I'm not alone in that. Phonetics are useful if they are your own phonetics, hear the word and write what you hear if you wish but I would leave it at that. I never at any time meant to advocate not learning to read and write Thai.

Daniel Tammet is an autistic savant, the wiring is different. That is not in any way dismissing visual learning any more than I would dismiss your use of bright lovely colours or mind-mapping, valuable techniques that I use myself when working with dyslexia sufferers.

[KunMatt]

Think I was misunderstood (in English not Thai, that's a new one)I was referring to the transliteration of Thai as used in audio visual systems. Given the inherent problems in transcribing the Thai language into Roman script I feel its best avoided. I'm not alone in that. Phonetics are useful if they are your own phonetics, hear the word and write what you hear if you wish but I would leave it at that. I never at any time meant to advocate not learning to read and write Thai.

Just to prove your point; I'm still at beginner level but I now have enough vocab for basic conversations. I learnt the Thai alphabet before I started any of the Lessons and Tests in "Thai for Beginners" and went through it all in Thai as the phonetic Roman transliteration they use was harder for me to learn than the Thai alphabet and basically useless outside of that book. I would have to learn another system or change mine to be able to use their phonetic system.

Occasionally I may use the phonetics in the book for help to see how to say a word I am struggling to say from the Thai spelling but generally my transliterations will be completely different to everyone else's so the help is limited, for example for ี I would use "ii", for ู I would use "uu", other people use "ee" and "oo" respectively, my girlfriend uses another transliteration completely different to me so if I want to text or chat with her in Thai then she will have to use Thai script or I would never understand her.

Bottom line, in my opinion it doesn't really take too much effort to learn the Thai alphabet considering the benefits you get from it if you want to learn the language properly.