Naming Of Thailand On New US Terror Risk List Worrying

[phiphidon]

But most red shirt supporting posters have lead me to believe that the international community ignored the previous governments labeling of the red shirts as terrorists?

Which one is it?

It's both. Unfortunately the american "terror list" listing is based on suspected terrorists being arrested in a country. Abhisit started the terrorist ball rolling on Monday April 12th 2010;

The Thai premier's office said Monday terrorists had incited the deadly weekend clashes with the army. "Weclearly found that terrorists used pro-democracy protesters to incite the unrest, hoping for total change in our country," Abhisit was cited as saying in a nationally televised address.

https://mobile.tdame...wsManagerAction

It wasn't clear as to how they "clearly found" the evistence of terrorists and the UDD asked Abhisit to provide proof. He may have had this in mind;

The prime minister told a meeting of ministry permanent secretaries yesterday that intelligence showed small groups of peoplewould try to cause violence and chaos in a bid to effect political change, according to a Govern-ment House source.

"People called and told me a lot of military fatigues were bought at the Chatuchak Market and bullets at gun shops in the Phahurat area were sold out. Water pipes were also bought to make guns," Abhisit was quoted as saying.

http://www.nationmul...a-30124223.html

This ultimately led to the trial of 19 Red Shirt Leaders for terrorism charges (a parallel to this being the student leaders trials after the 1976 massacre but in those times they added the catch-all accusation of communism as well)

Some see this as a political trial, here;

"The Abhisit government called the leaders of the red shirts terrorists, and thepolice merely charged them accordingly," said Somchai Preecha-silpakul, former dean of the law faculty at Chiang Mai University, based in northern Thailand. "Using the lawlike this is very dangerous when the government uses the charge against its opponents."

"It will allow anyone to use the law and call their opponents 'terrorists'," he warned during an IPS interview.

"This kind of case involving the red shirt leaders is very rare historically in Thailand,"said David Streckfuss, a U.S. academic specialising in Thai political culture. "There hasn't been any case like this in recent Thai politics."

"It is reminiscent of the 1976 case involving 18 student leaders, who faced alitany of charges – communism, terrorism and lese majeste," he told IPS. "Those cases were resolved when a less oppressive government gave a general amnesty."

http://ipsnews.net/w...sp?idnews=52963

So whilst most countries would see the terrorist tag being used as a political tool, the americans, having started the "War on Terror" are duty bound, it seems, to place Thailand on the Terrorist Watch List due to Abhisits labelling of the Red Shirts as Terrorists (aided and abetted by Suthep and various other democrat flunkies jumping on the bandwagon).

[Sateev]

It all comes down to PREVENTION in the first place. If many countries would mind their own business and take care of their own security -period.

IF WE HAD ONLY--U.K. not encouraged so many ethnic into the land, setting up their own religious (castles) creating ghetto's in all areas, turning a blind eye to non integration, even allowing bad teachings against the state-hence the London bombings.

U.S.A. going around the world prodding hornets nests, ACTING as the worlds peacekeepers. Mostly to protect monetary interests, or whatever.

The Russians couldn't make a job of Afghanistan didn't that tell all something--all for what.

OIL in the Iraq area - threat to money?? Not much protection to Ethiopia-Sudan-Somali------no reward for help????

Thailand-prevention=Thaksin, once found out he had his fingers in (the till) the man should have been prevented from causing problems from his hideouts. Preventing the red shirts from colonising BKK--the same Airport -yellows.

To my mind countries should keep their own council, integrate for business-holidays. Strict home security should be a priority. Running after bandits all over the world is a no no --just prevent them from entering??

There's a word for what you propose. It's called ISOLATIONISM. It was in vogue, just before each of the great World Wars. Neville Chamberlain liked it, as Hitler was carving up Europe, like roast beef. The US fought bitter battles in Congress, and in the press, with notables like Henry Ford arguing that we should just keep making Fords, and stay out of it. Of course he was drinking champagne with the Nazis...

Some in the US are now calling for isolationism. It's a primal response to stress - pull your legs and neck back into your shell, and hope that that noise you hear isn't a truck coming to roll over you. Unfortunately, it's no longer a world where that's even possible. Globalism is here. No country can be self-sufficient, or at least no country would want to be, even the US.

Simple minds, simple solutions. Not.

[Sateev]

[

So whilst most countries would see the terrorist tag being used as a political tool, the americans, having started the "War on Terror" are duty bound, it seems, to place Thailand on the Terrorist Watch List due to Abhisits labelling of the Red Shirts as Terrorists (aided and abetted by Suthep and various other democrat flunkies jumping on the bandwagon).

First 'Americans' should be capitalized.

Second, bandying about of the word "terrorist" notwithstanding, this has NOTHING to do with Red or Yellow shirts, or with Ratchaprasong or the airport.

Look south, and/or to Sukhumvit Soi 3. Thailand is porous, AND has some of the homegrown article. Jihadis on R&R break, and groups who assassinate monks and schoolteachers are worthy of scrutiny.

And no where is Thailand on a terrorist watch list. That is inane. The article is about inclusion on a list of "Specially Designated Countries", which means that people, otherwise detained by DHS, should have their identities checked ("Third Agent Check") to see if they are wanted by another jurisdiction. No impact on visa issuance, no extra hassles for legal entrants into the US.

Do some reading before posting.

[ginjag]

It all comes down to PREVENTION in the first place. If many countries would mind their own business and take care of their own security -period.

IF WE HAD ONLY--U.K. not encouraged so many ethnic into the land, setting up their own religious (castles) creating ghetto's in all areas, turning a blind eye to non integration, even allowing bad teachings against the state-hence the London bombings.

U.S.A. going around the world prodding hornets nests, ACTING as the worlds peacekeepers. Mostly to protect monetary interests, or whatever.

The Russians couldn't make a job of Afghanistan didn't that tell all something--all for what.

OIL in the Iraq area - threat to money?? Not much protection to Ethiopia-Sudan-Somali------no reward for help????

Thailand-prevention=Thaksin, once found out he had his fingers in (the till) the man should have been prevented from causing problems from his hideouts. Preventing the red shirts from colonising BKK--the same Airport -yellows.

To my mind countries should keep their own council, integrate for business-holidays. Strict home security should be a priority. Running after bandits all over the world is a no no --just prevent them from entering??

There's a word for what you propose. It's called ISOLATIONISM. It was in vogue, just before each of the great World Wars. Neville Chamberlain liked it, as Hitler was carving up Europe, like roast beef. The US fought bitter battles in Congress, and in the press, with notables like Henry Ford arguing that we should just keep making Fords, and stay out of it. Of course he was drinking champagne with the Nazis...

Some in the US are now calling for isolationism. It's a primal response to stress - pull your legs and neck back into your shell, and hope that that noise you hear isn't a truck coming to roll over you. Unfortunately, it's no longer a world where that's even possible. Globalism is here. No country can be self-sufficient, or at least no country would want to be, even the US.

Simple minds, simple solutions. Not.

Isolate no................integrate yes...............don't be after brownie points.... Meddling into affairs of other nations, just for monetary purposes no no. Go Go do all the Vietnam things up to you. As for Hitler WELL here is one of the exceptions--again if you can get of your high horse===IT was on our doorstep we had a treaty to protect others near and OURSELVES.if you read into what I was trying to say---PREVENTION was the topic-if you want to overlook that, and search for sensational reply. Maybe thats your view. BUT here in Thailand why do I have a 2 meter wall around my home ??? to protect myself, if there is a threat from outside and it's near I then have to defend -as in EUROPE.

To reply to your U.S.A. bit--YES withdraw collect yourselves protect- choose a different way forward, Stop yourself from being bankrupt. and do not train foreign pilots in your schools until you screen them properly.

[ginjag]

It all comes down to PREVENTION in the first place. If many countries would mind their own business and take care of their own security -period.

IF WE HAD ONLY--U.K. not encouraged so many ethnic into the land, setting up their own religious (castles) creating ghetto's in all areas, turning a blind eye to non integration, even allowing bad teachings against the state-hence the London bombings.

U.S.A. going around the world prodding hornets nests, ACTING as the worlds peacekeepers. Mostly to protect monetary interests, or whatever.

The Russians couldn't make a job of Afghanistan didn't that tell all something--all for what.

OIL in the Iraq area - threat to money?? Not much protection to Ethiopia-Sudan-Somali------no reward for help????

Thailand-prevention=Thaksin, once found out he had his fingers in (the till) the man should have been prevented from causing problems from his hideouts. Preventing the red shirts from colonising BKK--the same Airport -yellows.

To my mind countries should keep their own council, integrate for business-holidays. Strict home security should be a priority. Running after bandits all over the world is a no no --just prevent them from entering??

There's a word for what you propose. It's called ISOLATIONISM. It was in vogue, just before each of the great World Wars. Neville Chamberlain liked it, as Hitler was carving up Europe, like roast beef. The US fought bitter battles in Congress, and in the press, with notables like Henry Ford arguing that we should just keep making Fords, and stay out of it. Of course he was drinking champagne with the Nazis...

Some in the US are now calling for isolationism. It's a primal response to stress - pull your legs and neck back into your shell, and hope that that noise you hear isn't a truck coming to roll over you. Unfortunately, it's no longer a world where that's even possible. Globalism is here. No country can be self-sufficient, or at least no country would want to be, even the US.

Simple minds, simple solutions. Not.

Isolate no................integrate yes...............don't be after brownie points.... Meddling into affairs of other nations, just for monetary purposes no no. Go Go do all the Vietnam things up to you. As for Hitler WELL here is one of the exceptions--again if you can get of your high horse===IT was on our doorstep we had a treaty to protect others near and OURSELVES.if you read into what I was trying to say---PREVENTION was the topic-if you want to overlook that, and search for sensational reply. Maybe thats your view. BUT here in Thailand why do I have a 2 meter wall around my home ??? to protect myself, if there is a threat from outside and it's near I then have to defend -as in EUROPE.

To reply to your U.S.A. bit--YES withdraw collect yourselves protect- choose a different way forward, Stop yourself from being bankrupt. and do not train foreign pilots in your schools until you screen them properly.

[ToffeEFCpower]

If Thailand is full of alledged terrorists then why is it there has never been any convictions?

[Sateev]

If Thailand is full of alledged terrorists then why is it there has never been any convictions?

Not sure what you're talking about.

Ever heard of Hambali? Captured in 2003 in Ayutthaya.

[toffo9]

So has he put his own country AMERICA on that list... They should be top of the list for producing gun toting killers

[farang000999]

sorry guys if your thai friends are having problems getting accepted it is probably because they aren't capable of properly filling out paperwork and following directions.

just go to american services and cross into the next room where the Thais wait on queue and see just how "Difficult" it is as hundreds young old rich poor dark white line up and get their visas for various reasons.

sorry it is not some grueling process assuming the applicant can follow basic directions.

:jap:

[farang000999]

the real risk wrt thailand is attacks on western hotels like in india.

[garrfeild]

With any luck the USA will put the whole world on a terrorist watch list! leaving themselves to themselves. A beautiful country, it's the people who are F****ed. I can't see any reason to want to go visit the country, even american citizens are treated like terrorists when going through security checks at airports in the US.

super paranoid nation.

[alphaboy1000]

America's conveniently branded "war on terror" is

nothing but their excuse to go on plundering from

weaker, natural-resource rich nations, and murdering

anyone who happens to disagree with their filthy

dictatorial system of rule.

The americans are the only true terrorists in today's

world

[jonclark]

I'd have thought that this 'listing' would have more to do with the 'islamic' insurgency in the South of the country than any Bangkok based demonstration. Clearly there is a lot going on to sustain such a long standing insurgency such as funding, recruitment and training. Don't think this has anything, other than a footnote, to do with Taksin et al.

Yes ... it's just interesting that it comes so soon after alleged terrorists were elected to government.

If it is only about the south, why has it taken so long?

Perhaps, it's because the insurgency has been going for so long. There are daily shootings of teachers, monks, various bombings and attacks on security personnel which often injury or kill bystanders, village headmen, rubber tappers beheaded, all to establish a pan-Islamic state in the southern peninsula. This is established terrorism with more than likely links to overseas international terrorism organizations. Far worse than the demos in Bangkok.

Edit: Besides freedom to demonstrate is in principle an enshrined in spirit with the idea of democracy

Edited July 10, 2011 by jonclark

[MILT]

It's very easy for Thais to get visas to the USA. Just show up and watch as 90% get accepted when they go up to the booth.

Not True

[rubin]

Why Americans are so paranoid? If they are scared of everybody in the world means they are not doing things in the right way?

[MILT]

The ignorance in this forum is amazing. Cant hack it in the west so move to thaiand/asia to bash your homeland. Sad. Im sure your country is happy to be rid of you

It even gets better than that. Not only bash their own country but bashing Thailand/Asia as well. "I love America cause that's where I keep all my stuff" Poser's more than posters

[tominbkk]

What's your big hangup with the reds winning the election? Just get over it.

I don't like Thaksin and I don't like that the red shirt leaders are now MPs. Why should I be happy about it?

I'm not saying you should be happy about it. I'm just saying, get over it. The elections are over, the reds have won. There is nothing you can do (though you might like to think differently) about it. And if you are really unhappy, you know what you can do (hint: Suvanabhumi)

Just because somebody expresses a different idea then yours, you have to use the "love it or leave it" argument...so droll.

Personally I could give a shit one way or another, they are all crooks.

But people should be allowed to give their opinion on this forum without being told by some blowhard that they are not allowed to express themselves. If you don't want to allow others the right to their opinion, then you should be the one leaving, TV that is.

[MILT]

Probably the American way to prepare for the intervention of the American military as the idea of Democracy in Thailand isn't in line with the views of the American military and business leaders.

Don't worry chaps, we'll all be liberated (at a cost ) when the Americans return. overtly to the scene rather than covertly.

What a typically ignorant, opportunistic, and utterly poisonous comment. So many pathetic little pipsqueaks taking potshots, hoping for the like-minded to '+1' their moronic spewing.

While I'm no fan of what has happened in the US since 2001, nor of it's current direction, it would be good to remember that many of the whining little losers would be marching in line with their comrade's boot in their a**, both here, and in Europe, if not for the US. Whether it will weather the current storm or not, if you don't like melamine in your milk, or MiG flybys of your fishing boats, you had better hope it does. Learning Mandarin won't be enough.

I'm truly sorry for those so embittered by their own plight, that the only way they can feel better is to bite the hand that has so generously fed them. Fortunately, throughout history, Americans have generally NOT taken their marbles, and left the game.

Out.

RTFO (Right the <deleted> on)

[Sateev]

...

But people should be allowed to give their opinion on this forum without being told by some blowhard that they are not allowed to express themselves. If you don't want to allow others the right to their opinion, then you should be the one leaving, TV that is.

Actually, George is laughing all the way to the bank...."no, PLEASE don't leave TV"

[garrfeild]

Probably the American way to prepare for the intervention of the American military as the idea of Democracy in Thailand isn't in line with the views of the American military and business leaders.

Don't worry chaps, we'll all be liberated (at a cost ) when the Americans return. overtly to the scene rather than covertly.

What a typically ignorant, opportunistic, and utterly poisonous comment. So many pathetic little pipsqueaks taking potshots, hoping for the like-minded to '+1' their moronic spewing.

While I'm no fan of what has happened in the US since 2001, nor of it's current direction, it would be good to remember that many of the whining little losers would be marching in line with their comrade's boot in their a**, both here, and in Europe, if not for the US. Whether it will weather the current storm or not, if you don't like melamine in your milk, or MiG flybys of your fishing boats, you had better hope it does. Learning Mandarin won't be enough.

I'm truly sorry for those so embittered by their own plight, that the only way they can feel better is to bite the hand that has so generously fed them. Fortunately, throughout history, Americans have generally NOT taken their marbles, and left the game.

Out.

Your reply Just shows the atitude of most americans when dealing with the rest of the world, You Yanks actualy think you own it all, of all the condisending comments "biting the hand that feeds us" After the world wars we had Vietnam, 2 Iraqi wars where there were no WMD (must save the oil) Pakistan and Afganistan, where it took you 10 years to find and Kill Bin Laden supposedly! Oh I'm Sorry I forgot the Bush and Binladen families were doing business together!

Fair to say America has been the cause of most of it's own problems over the past few decades. You have had to topple the very leaders you placed in power in various countries.

[whybother]

And no where is Thailand on a terrorist watch list. That is inane. The article is about inclusion on a list of "Specially Designated Countries", which means that people, otherwise detained by DHS, should have their identities checked ("Third Agent Check") to see if they are wanted by another jurisdiction. No impact on visa issuance, no extra hassles for legal entrants into the US.

Do some reading before posting.

Where do you get that this is just about people detained in the US?

Certainly, the document you previously quoted is related to people detained, but is that the document or announcement that is being talked about in the OP?

[Huey]

Good. It's the least they can do after Thailand let the red shirts win.

[ToffeEFCpower]

Sorry, let's confine my question to the last 3 years. Does that help?

[Sateev]

Probably the American way to prepare for the intervention of the American military as the idea of Democracy in Thailand isn't in line with the views of the American military and business leaders.

Don't worry chaps, we'll all be liberated (at a cost ) when the Americans return. overtly to the scene rather than covertly.

What a typically ignorant, opportunistic, and utterly poisonous comment. So many pathetic little pipsqueaks taking potshots, hoping for the like-minded to '+1' their moronic spewing.

While I'm no fan of what has happened in the US since 2001, nor of it's current direction, it would be good to remember that many of the whining little losers would be marching in line with their comrade's boot in their a**, both here, and in Europe, if not for the US. Whether it will weather the current storm or not, if you don't like melamine in your milk, or MiG flybys of your fishing boats, you had better hope it does. Learning Mandarin won't be enough.

I'm truly sorry for those so embittered by their own plight, that the only way they can feel better is to bite the hand that has so generously fed them. Fortunately, throughout history, Americans have generally NOT taken their marbles, and left the game.

Out.

Your reply Just shows the atitude of most americans when dealing with the rest of the world, You Yanks actualy think you own it all, of all the condisending comments "biting the hand that feeds us" After the world wars we had Vietnam, 2 Iraqi wars where there were no WMD (must save the oil) Pakistan and Afganistan, where it took you 10 years to find and Kill Bin Laden supposedly! Oh I'm Sorry I forgot the Bush and Binladen families were doing business together!

Fair to say America has been the cause of most of it's own problems over the past few decades. You have had to topple the very leaders you placed in power in various countries.

OK, now please tell us what YOUR country has done for the world. Are you a product of its educational system? Well, it's ok, there must be SOMETHING that went well for you. Since you use the word 'Yanks', I presume you are a British subject. Pray, tell us of the great contributions from 'over there'. Or, failing that, as you must, tell us what YOU have done to improve the world we live in.

Your venom just gives you away. You are a loser, seeking refuge in a more forgiving land, all the while spewing to feel as though you have some control of your destiny.

Hogwash.

[Nisa]

Seems this list was an attachment to another document and couldn't have been too official because North Korea wasn't on the list and there has already been an apology from the US for including Israel on the list.

Of course it's official.

North Korean citizens are not allowed US visas in the first place. This is a list of countries whose citizens can (and do) travel to the US, and who, if detained, must undergo a Third Agency Check, i.e., the US checks with other jurisdictions to see if the detainee is wanted there.

An example, might be if Thaksin were detained for questioning at a point of entry, or even in an Immigration sweep, as he sat at McDonalds, the DHS would check to see if he was wanted by other countries. Presumably, Thailand would have raised its hand (at least before July 3).

I don't know. I guess it's alright for nincompoops in the general public to be unable to critically read a document, but for "Foreign Ministry spokesman Thani Thongphakdi" to swallow this crap, without bothering to look up and read the relevant document, is ludicrous.

As for Israel being wrongly included, sh*t happens. They retracted it. It's still official.

edit: changed 'Third Party' to 'Third Agency'

First of all North Koreans can get visa's to come to the US, they get them through China.

This document does NOT REFLECT US POLICY. http://truthfrequencynews.com/?p=6023

It is clear that this document doesn't reflect US Policy because:

a) This was an attachment to a memo from the Head of Homeland Security to the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

b ) The US would NEVER put Israel on any kind of public list that even hinted at being a terrorist list. Anything that is Policy for public consumption is reviewed many times before released.

c) There have been numerous contradictions by these security department officials including ...

"The addition of Israel in the OIG's list of ICE's 'Third-Agency Checks' (TAC) was based on inaccurate information provided to the OIG during the course of its audit," said, John Morton, the director of the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement

http://www.jta.org/n...t-was-a-mistake

A Homeland Security spokeswoman told CNS that putting Israel on the list does not mean that the US views Israel as a terror-supporting state. Quite the contrary, but it does mean that travelers coming from Israel could have terrorist ties.

http://www.israeltod...US/Default.aspx

There were other reports (can't find links) in the US where officials were quoted as saying that the mistake was simply a typo type mistake that resulted in Israel replacing North Korea on the list.

The list does not fault government policies and instead recognizes the likelihood that a suspect traveler from that country might have terrorist ties. If a traveler from one of the countries is detained, the country's inclusion on the list triggers a special check by Immigration and Customs Enforcement. http://www.jta.org/n...t-was-a-mistake

The obvious truth is that Israel should be included on the list but after this memo got out, Obama and team slapped down Homeland security because the US has and always will coddle and support Israel.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Nisa

[Sateev]

Sorry, let's confine my question to the last 3 years. Does that help?

Sure, it's always helpful to the loser to change the rules.

In any case, I still have no idea what you're referring to. Convictions of whom? Terrorists in Thailand? Captured terrorists, convicted by the US? WHAT??

This thread started over a very badly reported piece of non-news by the non-newspaper, The Nation. No one has stated that Thailand is full of terrorists, although it may be. What was done by the US Department of Homeland Security was to add Thailand to a list of countries, the Specially Designated Countries list, whose travelers, when detained on customs or immigration matters in the US, will be subjected to a Third Agency Check, i.e., a check for wants by other jurisdictions (countries). No visa requirement changes, no impact on legal travelers to the US, whatsoever. Thailand was NOT added to the countries on the Terrorist Watch List.

The inability to read critically, and to independently verify what you were able to read, has created four or five pages of mostly nonsense. Happy?

[animatic]

The USA (my home country) is becoming more and more a police state. You get a cavity search to enter the public library

Then eat less candy and brush your teeth more.

[animatic]

In the south there definitely are terrorists. Some tied to Al Qu'eda and J.I.

In Bangkok last year, there was much proof publicly of terrorist actions, home grown or not, politically un-involved people were attacked regularly, in what could only be called political contexts. Bombers blowing things up, and blowing themselves up. This is not simply about the Red Rally and it's closure, but many things happening all over, but especially Bangkok.

Add to that the charges of terrorism hanging over Red leaders,

and there is more than the typical amount of terrorist labeled activity.

This listing doesn't surprise a bit.

If things stay clam this fall and winter, this could easily change the rating, but I have little hope of this. Certainly the southern insurgents have no love of any Shinawatras by any name after Tak Bai and the other incidents on Thaksins watch.

And the Red Leaders court dates are still approaching only to be stalled with claims of 'post charges filed immunity from prosecution applying', and the usual legal wrangling. I can certainly see the USA saying; Allowing charged terrorists to become MP's and then have the charges dropped would be consistent with "Protecting' Terrorists.

Edited July 10, 2011 by animatic

[Sateev]

In the south there definitely are terrorists. Some tied to Al Qu'eda and J.I.

In Bangkok last year, there was much proof publicly of terrorist actions, home grown or not, politically un-involved people were attacked regularly, in what could only be called political contexts. Bombers blowing things up, and blowing themselves up. This is not simply about the Red Rally and it's closure, but many things happening all over, but especially Bangkok.

Add to that the charges of terrorism hanging over Red leaders,

and there is more than the typical amount of terrorist labeled activity.

This listing doesn't surprise a bit.

If things stay clam this fall and winter, this could easily change the rating, but I have little hope of this. Certainly the southern insurgents have no love of any Shinawatras by any name after Tak Bai and the other incidents on Thaksins watch.

And the Red Leaders court dates are still approaching only to be stalled with claims of 'post charges filed immunity from prosecution applying', and the usual legal wrangling. I can certainly see the USA saying; Allowing charged terrorists to become MP's and then have the charges dropped would be consistent with "Protecting' Terrorists.

I want to say, "I wish people ACTUALLY understood the meaning of the word 'terrorist'", but, I am thankful that most do not have to know. Still, those who don't, really need to be a bit more careful about using the term.

In my opinion, NOTHING the Red or Yellow shirts have done is even remotely terror. The Muslims in the south, definitely. The WTC bombings, definitely. Mumbai, Bali, trains in Spain, definitely.

The US (and her allies, including Thailand) have done a LOT to stem terrorism, both here, and abroad. Be thankful.

[Scott]

One off-topic post has been removed. Please keep the discussion civil and on-topic.