Thaksin, Red Shirts Cast Shadow Over Yingluck Govt

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE

Thaksin, red shirts cast shadow over Yingluck govt

By Avudh Panananda

The Nation

Thaksin Shinawatra, Yingluck Shinawatra and the red shirts are three variables that can make or break the Pheu Thai-led government.

Despite a controlling majority of 300 votes in Parliament, the incoming government should watch out for any missteps. Its vulnerability is not threat from the opposition but the risk of scoring an own goal.

As Yingluck is poised to become the prime minister next month, she has outlined her government's six priorities, assigning reconciliation on top of the agenda.

Yingluck's brother and mentor Thaksin gave an interview, published by Mathichon online, highlighting his frank assessment on the prospects of reconciliation.

Thaksin and Yingluck appear to echo each other on how to mend fences with their opponents. In the face of Pheu Thai's landmark victory, it is understandable the two see themselves as holding the world in the palms of their hands.

But the two might have overlooked the fact that without the red-shirts' approval, any reconciliation plans would not get off the drawing board.

In his interview, Thaksin was upbeat that he could convince the red shirts to go along with the Pheu Thai-sponsored reconciliation. He even voiced his optimism that the government could resolve or lessen the deep-rooted conflict in two years.

The burning question is whether the red shirts are Thaksin's beautiful monster or his Frankenstein.

The red-shirt activities evolved from an anti-coup sentiment before morphing into a mass movement crusading against perceived injustice, including that inflicted on Thaksin in the Bt46-billion asset seizure case.

Thaksin and the red shirts were indivisible up to last year's riots. Following the political mayhem, known as the torching of Bangkok, Thaksin put a pause on his involvement. Yet the red shirts could grow and consolidate. The general election saw the reunion between him and his red allies.

Thaksin's popularity is without a doubt a key factor rallying the red shirts. It is equally true that the red shirts were indispensable in the Pheu Thai's election victory.

The red shirts thrive under Thaksin's blessing but at the same time Pheu Thai could wrestle power from the Democrats by riding on the red-shirts' coattails.

Even as Thaksin remains a major influence on the movement, recent events indicate that the red shirts do have a mind of their own. The red shirts have adopted a stand on the Cabinet line-up regardless of what Pheu Thai says or does. They will also carry on with their street activities despite Pheu Thai being in power.

Should Thaksin and Pheu Thai come up with a reconciliation plan that falls short of expectations, the red shirts will likely be a wild card that could cause the government to collapse from within.

A worrisome scenario is about the wrath to be unleashed by the red shirts if Thaksin agrees to a deal to whitewash last year's crackdown in exchange for keeping the lid on what his brother-in-law Somchai Wongsawat did to the yellow shirts in the October 2008 bloodshed.

Besides the Thaksin and red shirts interplay on reconciliation, the Thaksin-Yingluck mirror image of one another is another key issue critical to the government's survival.

It is ironic that Thaksin used to attribute his predicament to what he saw as power not sanctioned by the Constitution. Presently he becomes that power not sanctioned by the Constitution as he makes key decisions for his sister Yingluck.

Yingluck has repeatedly said she is in charge of forming her Cabinet. But coalition partners and key figures in Pheu Thai opt to negotiate the ministerial line-up with Thaksin.

If Thaksin continues to usurp power from the elected prime minister, then he will soon become a nail in Yingluck's coffin.

-- The Nation 2011-07-12

[moe666]

A nail in the PTP coffin.

[Mosha]

They've served their purpose, now they can go back to being ignored.

[tominbkk]

It would be a very sweet thing to see PTP go after Thaksin1 (original) and Thaksin2 (clone). Let the snake eat its own tail, shall we say.......

Edited July 11, 2011 by tominbkk

[mccw]

Thaksins counting on being able to do a deal to pardon everyone so he can return. Thinking he'll just dish out sum cash to the peasants like before n he'll b able to do whatever he likes. Problem is alot of raw irrational hatred was awakened in many which isnt so easy to just switch off. The extreme reds could well lose the plot completely and turn on their masters; indeed on everyone not sharing their phycological disorder.

[Mosha]

I did think last year, that Thaksin had let the genie out of the bottle.

[scorecard]

Quote from the Nation piece:

:..The red-shirt activities evolved from an anti-coup sentiment before morphing into a mass movement crusading against perceived injustice, including that inflicted on Thaksin in the Bt46-billion asset seizure case.

..." This is rubbish. The anti-coup sentiment, injustice* etc is spin added by thaksin and even later by amsterdam.

* However, broadly there is s lack of equal application of the law, and nor forgetting that the red shirts have tried to be vigilante groups and at one stage tried to take over law and order (their style) in Chiang Mai. They are just as much involved in disrespect for justive and the judicial process as anybody else, but then of course we have their war cry of 'no double standards' - all added by the master manipulator and his amsterdam sidekick.

Nation needs to get better journalists who are insightful and get it right.

Edited July 12, 2011 by scorecard

[animatic]

I did think last year, that Thaksin had let the genie out of the bottle.

More aptly Pandora's Box is now open

and there is no putting this back in any time soon.

The Reds will be for PTP what PAD has been for the other side.

A useful, but psychotic, courtisan of the moment, who then decides

being dumped doesn't suit and goes vengeful.

Thaksin and a few others may have some ways to moderate their coming wrath, but not their instability, or Reds as a destabilizing force, and Yingluck I fear is woefully ill equipped for holding them in check. Own Goal indeed.

Edited July 12, 2011 by animatic

[Mosha]

So how will Thaksin's other tool(Police) react if the reds repeat last years antics under the PTP? I doubt they will do nothing like they did last year. I find it a delicious irony.

[Emptyset]

I did think last year, that Thaksin had let the genie out of the bottle.

More aptly Pandora's Box is now open

and there is no putting this back in any time soon.

The Reds will be for PTP what PAD has been for the other side.

A useful, but psychotic, courtisan of the moment, who then decides

being dumped doesn't suit and goes vengeful.

Thaksin and a few others may have some ways to moderate their coming wrath, but not their instability, or Reds as a destabilizing force, and Yingluck I fear is woefully ill equipped for holding them in check. Own Goal indeed.

Reds are a larger movement than PAD though. As we've seen, when PAD couldn't play the anti-Thaksin card, they didn't attract many followers to their cause at all and their lengthy recent protest was no more than a minor irritant for the outgoing government. I've spoken to some reds that seem ready to burn their bridges with Thaksin and PT though, if what happened last year is whitewashed. Of course, the micro might not mirror the macro, but I'm guessing there's at least a large minority of reds that feel the same way. Enough to cause the govt serious problems. LM is also an concern for 'progressive' reds, but I don't think most mainstream red shirts care too much about it for it to become a major issue, either way.

[hellodolly]

I did think last year, that Thaksin had let the genie out of the bottle.

More aptly Pandora's Box is now open

and there is no putting this back in any time soon.

The Reds will be for PTP what PAD has been for the other side.

A useful, but psychotic, courtisan of the moment, who then decides

being dumped doesn't suit and goes vengeful.

Thaksin and a few others may have some ways to moderate their coming wrath, but not their instability, or Reds as a destabilizing force, and Yingluck I fear is woefully ill equipped for holding them in check. Own Goal indeed.

Reds are a larger movement than PAD though. As we've seen, when PAD couldn't play the anti-Thaksin card, they didn't attract many followers to their cause at all and their lengthy recent protest was no more than a minor irritant for the outgoing government. I've spoken to some reds that seem ready to burn their bridges with Thaksin and PT though, if what happened last year is whitewashed. Of course, the micro might not mirror the macro, but I'm guessing there's at least a large minority of reds that feel the same way. Enough to cause the govt serious problems. LM is also an concern for 'progressive' reds, but I don't think most mainstream red shirts care too much about it for it to become a major issue, either way.

Pardon my misunderstanding. But could you explain this to me.

"I've spoken to some reds that seem ready to burn their bridges with Thaksin and PT though, if what happened last year is whitewashed"

Are you saying that they want to be found guilty of Treason and trying to burn Bangkok down along with a armed invasion of a hospital?

I would think that a red shirt would want it all to go away.

[whybother]

Pardon my misunderstanding. But could you explain this to me.

"I've spoken to some reds that seem ready to burn their bridges with Thaksin and PT though, if what happened last year is whitewashed"

Are you saying that they want to be found guilty of Treason and trying to burn Bangkok down along with a armed invasion of a hospital?

I would think that a red shirt would want it all to go away.

They just believe the red propaganda that they didn't do anything wrong.

[wolfmanjack]

I did think last year, that Thaksin had let the genie out of the bottle.

More aptly Pandora's Box is now open

and there is no putting this back in any time soon.

The Reds will be for PTP what PAD has been for the other side.

A useful, but psychotic, courtisan of the moment, who then decides

being dumped doesn't suit and goes vengeful.

Thaksin and a few others may have some ways to moderate their coming wrath, but not their instability, or Reds as a destabilizing force, and Yingluck I fear is woefully ill equipped for holding them in check. Own Goal indeed.

Reds are a larger movement than PAD though. As we've seen, when PAD couldn't play the anti-Thaksin card, they didn't attract many followers to their cause at all and their lengthy recent protest was no more than a minor irritant for the outgoing government. I've spoken to some reds that seem ready to burn their bridges with Thaksin and PT though, if what happened last year is whitewashed. Of course, the micro might not mirror the macro, but I'm guessing there's at least a large minority of reds that feel the same way. Enough to cause the govt serious problems. LM is also an concern for 'progressive' reds, but I don't think most mainstream red shirts care too much about it for it to become a major issue, either way.

Pardon my misunderstanding. But could you explain this to me.

"I've spoken to some reds that seem ready to burn their bridges with Thaksin and PT though, if what happened last year is whitewashed"

Are you saying that they want to be found guilty of Treason and trying to burn Bangkok down along with a armed invasion of a hospital?

I would think that a red shirt would want it all to go away.

I am not sure how the law is written in thailand in this regard but in my home state if you are commiting a crime and the police kill an innocent bystander while trying to stop you then you are charges with that death also. For example if the police are involved in a high speed chase and the police car hits someone then you are charged with the death not the police. Same situation with the reds. They were breaking the law and some people on both sides were killed and injured. Rightfully the reds that were breaking the law are responsible for all of the deaths. Granted the police could be charged if it was found that unreasonable force was used and an innocent death resulted but I do not believe unreasonable force was used to stop the reds destruction. that would be up to a panel of judges in thailand to decide.

[tominbkk]

So how will Thaksin's other tool(Police) react if the reds repeat last years antics under the PTP? I doubt they will do nothing like they did last year. I find it a delicious irony.

Thaksin1 and Thaksin2 (and of course Chalerm) will just make sure that several of the tear gas canisters are of the "exploding with shrapnel" vareity that they are so fond of tossing into large crowds of demonstrators. In fact, it would not surprise me to see them skip the pretense and just toss a few grenades into the crowd and not pretend they are tear gas. Those pesky little reds would learn their place then!

[SICHONSTEVE]

It would be a very sweet thing to see PTP go after Thaksin1 (original) and Thaksin2 (clone). Let the snake eat its own tail, shall we say.......

This is just what I predicted would happen and recent events reinforce my opinion that disintegration within (thank god) is imminent. Unfortunately, those that do not understand the working's of politics will march down to the polling stations again like lemmings, frothing at the mouth to put their "red" cross where Thaksin has instructed them to, to show that nasty elitist Abhisit what peoples (Thaksin) power is all about.

The signs are indeed ominous that (just as I and many others predicted) Yingluck's populist policies, especially the exceedingly dumb and ill thought out "1 tablet for every school child" - which is not the medicine needed for improving education by the way - have gone down like a "sack of spuds" in the education circles and all it will succeed in doing is 'taking resources away from areas where it could be better spent' (probably the understatement of the year) they all bleat in perfect harmony!!!!

All of those triumphant, but misguided farangs that bathed in the celebration of Thaksin (sorry Yingluck's) win will be wondering what went wrong with it all and how stupid they were to trust the Thai people to do the right thing.

It is ironic that it will be the red shirts that upset the apple cart as Thaksin didn't appreciate that the (largely uneducated) red shirts would want something in return for their dedicated hard work and sacrifices as he is only used to getting what HE wants and not other mortals. I feel quite chuffed that I appear to be more clever than Thaksin in foreseeing this was going to happen when he didn't see it coming, clearly, or maybe he was blind to the fact that his "red army" were intent on getting their prize or "medals for valour" for the fallen heroes when he is used to getting everything for nothing through illegal means and often at the expense of the people, and not to giving them something in return. How dare my subjects question my rule - off to the gallows with them!!!

[Thaddeus]

Bunch of immature brats fighting over a toy, the lot of them.

[hammered]

PTP themsleves are a very varied alliance as are the reds who cross the entire poltical spectrum. The extreme left wing of the reds may be close to a break if they dont get exactly what they want but this will only be a very small part of the red movement. The critical factor will be how the establishment react to the government. If they remain resistant then the whole alliance will stay together against a common enemy in all likelihood, but if the eststablishment do a deal then that could trigger a bigger split with the size of it depending on how much PTP give in the deal

We shouldnt also forget that a lot of ordinary people do not analyse the red-PTP thing too deeply and see Thaksin/PTP and red as one single entity with Thaksin as the main identifying factor and the one they vote for. Often the reds you see on the street are very different form those who say they are red in villages but dont participate in the main events and who still remain quite traditional in many respects. Sometimes when these news analyses are done about huge splits that will occur they are a bit more wishful than real or even based on analysis from a nice office with never any time in a rural area.

[pisico]

Something interesting to ponder.

The international image of Thailand may be the result of what Mr Pithaya, (former ambassador) wrote in his article "Constructive Re-engagement&amp"; posted on the Pheu Thai Party's website yesterday.

"Outgoing Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya had caused an unprecedented aberration in Thai foreign policy as characterised, on the one hand, by their undisguised obsession with former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and, on the other, by the propensity to subject Thailand's relations with its neighbours to the vagaries and demands of its domestic politics."

"The juxtaposition of such behaviour was done at the expense of Thailand's respectable international image and amicable relations with its neighbours, particularly with Cambodia, the relations with whom were apparently hijacked by the People's Alliance for Democracy and its splinter groups with their blind nationalistic zeal."

Added to that is the fact that the Democrats underestimated the power of the so called "uneducated masses&amp" thinking that Bangkok was Thailand.  

The Nation, indeed, needs to either retrain its staff and/or get real journalists that can articulate valid points without making them appear to be "sour grapes" predictors of events to come. The article seems to be written to please the cheering choir minority. 

Hopefully the "usual suspects" (those who feel own the truth) will refrain, for the good of this forum, from bullying, name calling or condescending statements addressing this quote. That will only lower the level of what should be a dialogue, not a brawl.

Edited July 12, 2011 by pisico

[wackysleet]

I have to say, the Nation certainly keeps all the barrack room lawyers fully upto date with the truth while conveniently overlooking the other side of the coin, but what else would one expect from government controlled media.

Yes, there are posters who support the PTP, that's called Democracy. Possibly the majority of voters in all countries are ignorant about politics and believe the BS of the manifestos, probably equals itself out in relation to the minority of so called educated people that feel they should be the ones who decide on who runs the country and not the uneducated.

What I find disconcerting is the obviously intelligent and educated posters that never ever mention any of the dodgy dealings carried out under the democracy banner, {Palm Oil springs to mind} overseen by a prominent democrat that has had various allegations made against him, 1995 for instance during the democrat coalition government led by Mr. Chuan Leepai.

Debate is what resolves issues, not just arresting people and keeping them on ice for months or in some cases years and unless people "not TVposters they don't count for Jack Schitt" make a concerted effort for dialogue in an attempt at recociliation then the country is doomed, and stop the slagging off of each party by the other sides, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I have lived here for more than 20 years and have seen what politicians get up to and it will not change anytime soon, the culture from most politicians of three for me one for you is endemic, they are the ones that need to change.

[OzMick]

Something interesting to ponder.

The international image of Thailand may be the result of what Mr Pithaya, (former ambassador) wrote in his article "Constructive Re-engagement&amp"; posted on the Pheu Thai Party's website yesterday.

"Outgoing Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya had caused an unprecedented aberration in Thai foreign policy as characterised, on the one hand, by their undisguised obsession with former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and, on the other, by the propensity to subject Thailand's relations with its neighbours to the vagaries and demands of its domestic politics."

"The juxtaposition of such behaviour was done at the expense of Thailand's respectable international image and amicable relations with its neighbours, particularly with Cambodia, the relations with whom were apparently hijacked by the People's Alliance for Democracy and its splinter groups with their blind nationalistic zeal."

Added to that is the fact that the Democrats underestimated the power of the so called "uneducated masses&amp" thinking that Bangkok was Thailand.

The Nation, indeed, needs to either retrain its staff and/or get real journalists that can articulate valid points without making them appear to be "sour grapes" predictors of events to come. The article seems to be written to please the cheering choir minority.

Hopefully the "usual suspects" (those who feel own the truth) will refrain, for the good of this forum, from bullying, name calling or condescending statements addressing this quote. That will only lower the level of what should be a dialogue, not a brawl.

You state that you prefer a dialogue rather than brawl - how would you describe the red-shirt rally in BKK last year? Is it unfair for others to use similar, if very much milder tactics? Do you think it is possible for your keyboard opposition to set fire to your home?

[animatic]

There is no doubt Palm Oil scandal happened,

We know many Thais are greedy beyond common sense.

But the accusation about 'who over saw it'

is nothing more than that a mudslinging accusation.

Where is there any proof?

[Bkkorupcountry]

It amuses me to see how quickly some members are already sounding the death knell for PT, on the basis of a shoddy piece of reporting. Some members are even patting themselves on their backs, claiming that their predictions have come true :D

It would be really funny, were it not for some openly "Thanking God" that the newly elected Govt would collapse, thus taking Thailand into further turmoil.

[pisico]

<br />

<br />Something interesting to ponder.<br /><br />The international image of Thailand may be the result of what Mr Pithaya, (former ambassador) wrote in his article "Constructive Re-engagement&amp"; posted on the Pheu Thai Party's website yesterday.<br /><br />"Outgoing Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya had caused an unprecedented aberration in Thai foreign policy as characterised, on the one hand, by their undisguised obsession with former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and, on the other, by the propensity to subject Thailand's relations with its neighbours to the vagaries and demands of its domestic politics."<br /><br />"The juxtaposition of such behaviour was done at the expense of Thailand's respectable international image and amicable relations with its neighbours, particularly with Cambodia, the relations with whom were apparently hijacked by the People's Alliance for Democracy and its splinter groups with their blind nationalistic zeal."<br /><br />Added to that is the fact that the Democrats underestimated the power of the so called "uneducated masses&amp" thinking that Bangkok was Thailand.   <br />The Nation, indeed, needs to either retrain its staff and/or get real journalists that can articulate valid points without making them appear to be &quot;sour grapes&quot; predictors of events to come. The article seems to be written to please the cheering choir minority. <br /><br />Hopefully the "usual suspects" (those who feel own the truth) will refrain, for the good of this forum, from bullying, name calling or condescending statements addressing this quote. That will only lower the level of what should be a dialogue, not a brawl.<br />

<br /><br />You state that you prefer a dialogue rather than brawl - how would you describe the red-shirt rally in BKK last year? Is it unfair for others to use similar, if very much milder tactics? Do you think it is possible for your keyboard opposition to set fire to your home?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Parsing my words and changing the meaning and intent of my posting is not a true sequitur. My last line was an appeal for civility in this forum:

"the usual suspects will refrain, for the good of this forum, from bullying, name calling or condescending statements addressing this quote. That will only lower the level of what should be a dialogue, not a brawl."

From experience I know that the fastest way to lose a friend is to argue about politics or religion. Imagine what strangers would not do to each other in such a context!

If only one side in this situation is the "culprit" that would be an oversimplification of the events that have taken place in Thailand over the last 3 years. The Reds erred big time when Abhisit offered early elections and the Reds rejected the offer. That is but one example of what turned a tense situation into a tragedy for all sides. The establishment's obsession during the Abhisit years, after the Coup D'etat and conviction of Thaksin, was what lead the Democrats and the Yellows to be defeated by those who resented the coup d'etat and, right or wrong, did so as a way of validating the convicted, deposed Prime Minister.

Lastly, do not assume that if I am not an Abhisit cheerleader it means that I am a Thaksin supporter.

[lannarebirth]

It amuses me to see how quickly some members are already sounding the death knell for PT, on the basis of a shoddy piece of reporting. Some members are even patting themselves on their backs, claiming that their predictions have come true :D

It would be really funny, were it not for some openly "Thanking God" that the newly elected Govt would collapse, thus taking Thailand into further turmoil.

I asked this once before but it got deleted. Did you live here during the first Thaksin administration, or even subsequent administrations? I have the distinct impression that most, but not all Thaksin supporters here never did. Maybe i'm wrong.

[wackysleet]

There is no doubt Palm Oil scandal happened,

We know many Thais are greedy beyond common sense.

But the accusation about 'who over saw it'

is nothing more than that a mudslinging accusation.

Where is there any proof?

I am not saying anyone oversaw that particular incident, what I am saying is while it may not have been condoned please do not insult my intelligence or your own in believing that others did not know what was being done and by that very fact of not doing anything became complicit in the crime.

Please stop using double standards when it comes to proof, Thaksin was found guilty of certain crimes through the due process of the law and yet you and others on the site are telling everyone that thaksin is guilty of anything and everything you can think of, Where is your proof,

my view is that there are crooks on all sides of Thai politics but you and all the other detractors on here just bury your head in the sand in regards to wrongdoings by the Democrats, you throw shed loads of mud in what appears to me to distract others from crimes committed by the democrats, if you throw enough mud some will surely stick and deservedly so.

Talk about hypocrisy. Most of your reply reeks of it you even know and accept the case in question about palm oil and I bet you know full well what went on in 1995 with the great land giveaway too but never suggest that anything should be done about wrongdoings by the democrats. Mark Abhisit was leader of the democrats and openly admitted that corruption was increasing within the government, I applaud him for his honesty but have you never heard the expression, The buck stops here.

Recocilliation will never materialise with people that cannot change and work together to achieve peace and harmony. Try drawing some comfort and and parallels from the fact that England and Germany have reconciled {twice}.

Edited July 12, 2011 by wackysleet

[tragickingdom]

But than again the shadow cannot be as big as the Yellow Shirts that were hanging over Abhisit's government, or the ICC procedures that will eventually put Anupong, Prayuth and Suthep behind bars.

[wackysleet]

<br />

<br />Something interesting to ponder.<br /><br />The international image of Thailand may be the result of what Mr Pithaya, (former ambassador) wrote in his article "Constructive Re-engagement&amp"; posted on the Pheu Thai Party's website yesterday.<br /><br />"Outgoing Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya had caused an unprecedented aberration in Thai foreign policy as characterised, on the one hand, by their undisguised obsession with former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and, on the other, by the propensity to subject Thailand's relations with its neighbours to the vagaries and demands of its domestic politics."<br /><br />"The juxtaposition of such behaviour was done at the expense of Thailand's respectable international image and amicable relations with its neighbours, particularly with Cambodia, the relations with whom were apparently hijacked by the People's Alliance for Democracy and its splinter groups with their blind nationalistic zeal."<br /><br />Added to that is the fact that the Democrats underestimated the power of the so called "uneducated masses&amp" thinking that Bangkok was Thailand. <br />The Nation, indeed, needs to either retrain its staff and/or get real journalists that can articulate valid points without making them appear to be "sour grapes" predictors of events to come. The article seems to be written to please the cheering choir minority. <br /><br />Hopefully the "usual suspects" (those who feel own the truth) will refrain, for the good of this forum, from bullying, name calling or condescending statements addressing this quote. That will only lower the level of what should be a dialogue, not a brawl.<br />

<br /><br />You state that you prefer a dialogue rather than brawl - how would you describe the red-shirt rally in BKK last year? Is it unfair for others to use similar, if very much milder tactics? Do you think it is possible for your keyboard opposition to set fire to your home?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Parsing my words and changing the meaning and intent of my posting is not a true sequitur. My last line was an appeal for civility in this forum:

"the usual suspects will refrain, for the good of this forum, from bullying, name calling or condescending statements addressing this quote. That will only lower the level of what should be a dialogue, not a brawl."

From experience I know that the fastest way to lose a friend is to argue about politics or religion. Imagine what strangers would not do to each other in such a context!

If only one side in this situation is the "culprit" that would be an oversimplification of the events that have taken place in Thailand over the last 3 years. The Reds erred big time when Abhisit offered early elections and the Reds rejected the offer. That is but one example of what turned a tense situation into a tragedy for all sides. The establishment's obsession during the Abhisit years, after the Coup D'etat and conviction of Thaksin, was what lead the Democrats and the Yellows to be defeated by those who resented the coup d'etat and, right or wrong, did so as a way of validating the convicted, deposed Prime Minister.

Lastly, do not assume that if I am not an Abhisit cheerleader it means that I am a Thaksin supporter.

From my experience on here that if you complain or voice an opinion that differs from the usual regular pro democracy posters views then you must be a Thaksin supporter, they simply cannot accept that no party has the monopoly on honesty or that there may be another way to lead the country forward, you will be shouted down and probably ridiculed.

Edited July 12, 2011 by sbk
flame and pointless conspiracy theory removed

[OzMick]

<br />

<br />Something interesting to ponder.<br /><br />The international image of Thailand may be the result of what Mr Pithaya, (former ambassador) wrote in his article "Constructive Re-engagement&amp"; posted on the Pheu Thai Party's website yesterday.<br /><br />"Outgoing Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya had caused an unprecedented aberration in Thai foreign policy as characterised, on the one hand, by their undisguised obsession with former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and, on the other, by the propensity to subject Thailand's relations with its neighbours to the vagaries and demands of its domestic politics."<br /><br />"The juxtaposition of such behaviour was done at the expense of Thailand's respectable international image and amicable relations with its neighbours, particularly with Cambodia, the relations with whom were apparently hijacked by the People's Alliance for Democracy and its splinter groups with their blind nationalistic zeal."<br /><br />Added to that is the fact that the Democrats underestimated the power of the so called "uneducated masses&amp" thinking that Bangkok was Thailand. <br />The Nation, indeed, needs to either retrain its staff and/or get real journalists that can articulate valid points without making them appear to be "sour grapes" predictors of events to come. The article seems to be written to please the cheering choir minority. <br /><br />Hopefully the "usual suspects" (those who feel own the truth) will refrain, for the good of this forum, from bullying, name calling or condescending statements addressing this quote. That will only lower the level of what should be a dialogue, not a brawl.<br />

<br /><br />You state that you prefer a dialogue rather than brawl - how would you describe the red-shirt rally in BKK last year? Is it unfair for others to use similar, if very much milder tactics? Do you think it is possible for your keyboard opposition to set fire to your home?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Parsing my words and changing the meaning and intent of my posting is not a true sequitur. My last line was an appeal for civility in this forum:

"the usual suspects will refrain, for the good of this forum, from bullying, name calling or condescending statements addressing this quote. That will only lower the level of what should be a dialogue, not a brawl."

From experience I know that the fastest way to lose a friend is to argue about politics or religion. Imagine what strangers would not do to each other in such a context!

If only one side in this situation is the "culprit" that would be an oversimplification of the events that have taken place in Thailand over the last 3 years. The Reds erred big time when Abhisit offered early elections and the Reds rejected the offer. That is but one example of what turned a tense situation into a tragedy for all sides. The establishment's obsession during the Abhisit years, after the Coup D'etat and conviction of Thaksin, was what lead the Democrats and the Yellows to be defeated by those who resented the coup d'etat and, right or wrong, did so as a way of validating the convicted, deposed Prime Minister.

Lastly, do not assume that if I am not an Abhisit cheerleader it means that I am a Thaksin supporter.

My dear Pisico, if you wish civility on this forum, you may need to be a LITTLE more explicit with your quotes and their souce. This one for example "Mr Pithaya, who has emerged as a candidate for foreign minister, has strongly criticised the Democrat-led government's foreign policy............" Somehow you managed to delete the bit that indicates that the former ambassador to Chile (one of Thailand's most important delegations, no doubt) may be just a TAD biased in his opinion.

So much for impartiality; does civility include lies by omission?

Edited July 12, 2011 by OzMick

[whybother]

But than again the shadow cannot be as big as the Yellow Shirts that were hanging over Abhisit's government, or the ICC procedures that will eventually put Anupong, Prayuth and Suthep behind bars.

The yellow shirts cast a shadow. Thaksin and the red shirts are causing a total eclipse.

What ICC procedures? Making things up again?

[OzMick]

<br />

<br />Something interesting to ponder.<br /><br />The international image of Thailand may be the result of what Mr Pithaya, (former ambassador) wrote in his article "Constructive Re-engagement&amp"; posted on the Pheu Thai Party's website yesterday.<br /><br />"Outgoing Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya had caused an unprecedented aberration in Thai foreign policy as characterised, on the one hand, by their undisguised obsession with former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and, on the other, by the propensity to subject Thailand's relations with its neighbours to the vagaries and demands of its domestic politics."<br /><br />"The juxtaposition of such behaviour was done at the expense of Thailand's respectable international image and amicable relations with its neighbours, particularly with Cambodia, the relations with whom were apparently hijacked by the People's Alliance for Democracy and its splinter groups with their blind nationalistic zeal."<br /><br />Added to that is the fact that the Democrats underestimated the power of the so called "uneducated masses&amp" thinking that Bangkok was Thailand. <br />The Nation, indeed, needs to either retrain its staff and/or get real journalists that can articulate valid points without making them appear to be "sour grapes" predictors of events to come. The article seems to be written to please the cheering choir minority. <br /><br />Hopefully the "usual suspects" (those who feel own the truth) will refrain, for the good of this forum, from bullying, name calling or condescending statements addressing this quote. That will only lower the level of what should be a dialogue, not a brawl.<br />

<br /><br />You state that you prefer a dialogue rather than brawl - how would you describe the red-shirt rally in BKK last year? Is it unfair for others to use similar, if very much milder tactics? Do you think it is possible for your keyboard opposition to set fire to your home?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Parsing my words and changing the meaning and intent of my posting is not a true sequitur. My last line was an appeal for civility in this forum:

"the usual suspects will refrain, for the good of this forum, from bullying, name calling or condescending statements addressing this quote. That will only lower the level of what should be a dialogue, not a brawl."

From experience I know that the fastest way to lose a friend is to argue about politics or religion. Imagine what strangers would not do to each other in such a context!

If only one side in this situation is the "culprit" that would be an oversimplification of the events that have taken place in Thailand over the last 3 years. The Reds erred big time when Abhisit offered early elections and the Reds rejected the offer. That is but one example of what turned a tense situation into a tragedy for all sides. The establishment's obsession during the Abhisit years, after the Coup D'etat and conviction of Thaksin, was what lead the Democrats and the Yellows to be defeated by those who resented the coup d'etat and, right or wrong, did so as a way of validating the convicted, deposed Prime Minister.

Lastly, do not assume that if I am not an Abhisit cheerleader it means that I am a Thaksin supporter.

From my experience on here that if you complain or voice an opinion that differs from the usual regular pro democracy posters views then you must be a Thaksin supporter, they simply cannot accept that no party has the monopoly on honesty or that there may be another way to lead the country forward, you will be shouted down and probably ridiculed.

Perhaps we are all pro-democracy posters, but some us have a deeper understanding of what that means. I don't claim to be impartial, but I can see through some who peddle the Thaksin line while claiming to be. I also try to refrain from name calling as I find it puerile, but don't usually resort to pointing it out to moderation.