Debt Crisis Gather 20,000 Farmers In Bangkok

[Heng]

Yeah they need to revamp the education system because poor retards don't understand why they shouldn't be running up 2,000 Baht a month phone bills when they only make 6,000 Baht a month.

or they could also revamp the corruption/nepotistic/stupidity infested bureaucratic system that the country is saddled with. ie. use the funds allocated to them to maintain and upgrade the countries infrastructure rather than spend it on maintaining their facades. maybe then the poor retarded farmers can access a power/transport/communications system that does not require them to stuff the coffers of abjectly corrupt w4nkers and would see that their sons and daughters get the educations that would allow them to utilise their family holdings more effectively.

</rant>

It's easy to blame it on 'the man' on a whim, but I hardly think these folks are going into debt because of bribes to paid to have better access to power/transport/and communications systems.... even if one could charge these things to Easy Buy and Aeon.

[Ijustwannateach]

Strangely, though, the village barter/subsistence farming economy is disappearing- replaced, also strangely, more and more by cash transactions. Strangely, being a part of this cash-based network seems more and more to include purchase of higher tech interfaces to the world, the profits for which seem directed to a suspiciously small number of families. And the profits (in another country we would call them "taxes," but the official government has been well-bribed to displace them) are wildly incommensurate with the cash incomes that these villagers seem to manage to earn once they "hook in" to the glories of semi-globalization- the mobile phone is the prime example, but overdependence on motor vehicles and electricity can be included.

Strangely also, we find a quasi-rich scion of semi-foreign "moneylenders" (who has probably had a more expensive foreign education than many of us) arguing that for OTHERS, for THAIS, formal education in their own country is not an issue or a barrier to success. Strange and interesting, indeed.

[Heng]

Strangely, though, the village barter/subsistence farming economy is disappearing- replaced, also strangely, more and more by cash transactions.  Strangely, being a part of this cash-based network seems more and more to include purchase of higher tech interfaces to the world, the profits for which seem directed to a suspiciously small number of families.  And the profits (in another country we would call them "taxes," but the official government has been well-bribed to displace them) are wildly incommensurate with the cash incomes that these villagers seem to manage to earn once they "hook in" to the glories of semi-globalization- the mobile phone is the prime example, but overdependence on motor vehicles and electricity can be included.

Strangely also, we find a quasi-rich scion of semi-foreign "moneylenders" (who has probably had a more expensive foreign education than many of us) arguing that for OTHERS, for THAIS, formal education in their own country is not an issue or a barrier to success.  Strange and interesting, indeed.

Strange indeed. As a matter of fact though, I never even gave a thought to 'keeping the have nots down' until you brought it up a year or so ago, Steven. I heard you though and thought "hey, *keeping the poor DOWN* ...down like Barry White...dig it... what a GREAT idea. " And thus I am now doing that, one post at a time.

Edited October 28, 2005 by Heng

[plachon]

Strangely, though, the village barter/subsistence farming economy is disappearing- replaced, also strangely, more and more by cash transactions.  Strangely, being a part of this cash-based network seems more and more to include purchase of higher tech interfaces to the world, the profits for which seem directed to a suspiciously small number of families.  And the profits (in another country we would call them "taxes," but the official government has been well-bribed to displace them) are wildly incommensurate with the cash incomes that these villagers seem to manage to earn once they "hook in" to the glories of semi-globalization- the mobile phone is the prime example, but overdependence on motor vehicles and electricity can be included.

Strangely also, we find a quasi-rich scion of semi-foreign "moneylenders" (who has probably had a more expensive foreign education than many of us) arguing that for OTHERS, for THAIS, formal education in their own country is not an issue or a barrier to success.  Strange and interesting, indeed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Twang! Twang! Twang! ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY!

Even stranger is the fact that the man who loves to criticise and deride the forlorn, indebted, gullible, "retard" masses who flock to Bangkok from up-country, should owe his wealth to the very qualities he despises. It's a strange world indeed IWannaTeach.

However, Heng is correct when he asserts that the phenomenon of TRT hegemony and social ills we see today, are nothing new, as shown by this quote out of Baker and Phongpaichit's recent "History of Thailand" (p.110) credited to the early 20th century novelist Kularp Saipradit:

"If we leave things like this, these big people (phu yai) will always make blunders, and little people (phu noi) who have the right wisdom and capability will not have a say. In the end this may lead the country to ruin. Or at the very least, we will not progress in line with other neighbouring countries".

In retrospect, Thailand's done pretty well compared to neighbouring countries, perhaps with the arguable exception of Malaysia, although the phu yai are still holding back the phu noi from having a meaningful say in things.

[OZONE]

Funny, I for one have not seen too many Thai Farmer have many luxurious items such as "Mobile Phone". I've lived in Chiangmai and Lampang and yet to see this luxurious items. Sorry I must be blind. However, I've seen Farmers drank themself to death. I guess we can constitute that item of being a "luxurious"

[OZONE]

one more thing, Since these are an opion posts, I hope noone is taking offense to this. Everyone has the right to their opinion. It differentiate us from animals.

Edited October 28, 2005 by OZONE

[stumonster]

Funny, I for one have not seen too many Thai Farmer have many luxurious items such as "Mobile Phone".  I've lived in Chiangmai and Lampang and yet to see this luxurious items.  Sorry I must be blind. However, I've seen Farmers drank themself to death.  I guess we can constitute that item of being a "luxurious"

ah - forests and trees - next time take a look at the said farmers 15-25 year old son.

Heng - I cannot say I am speaking for anyone but myself - But one of the reasons I feel so strongly about issues such as these and see it as a travesty of justice is I come from my countries equivalent of thailands poor working class farmer - but I did have access to an education system that allowed me to come into contact with some very good teachers.This allowed me to to develop skills that have stood me in very good stead and left me with the opportunity to earn an income as a trademan. This is not the case anymore as our dear leaders have decided that education is only for the "rich" and the money is better utilised in expanding the taxation system ( the logic in the counting of beans is understandable - but not admirable )

I may be considered naive to believe that the first rule of leadership is to take care of your people , and I dislike people who do not adhere to this principle and who do not understand that many of the people they lead are just as skilled as they , or even better.

</dribble>

[Heng]

Funny, I for one have not seen too many Thai Farmer have many luxurious items such as "Mobile Phone".  I've lived in Chiangmai and Lampang and yet to see this luxurious items.  Sorry I must be blind. However, I've seen Farmers drank themself to death.  I guess we can constitute that item of being a "luxurious"

ah - forests and trees - next time take a look at the said farmers 15-25 year old son.

Heng - I cannot say I am speaking for anyone but myself - But one of the reasons I feel so strongly about issues such as these and see it as a travesty of justice is I come from my countries equivalent of thailands poor working class farmer - but I did have access to an education system that allowed me to come into contact with some very good teachers.This allowed me to to develop skills that have stood me in very good stead and left me with the opportunity to earn an income as a trademan.

Stu, so did my grandparents and their 16 siblings. All they had access to (and about half of them did not) was the education "system" of 1920's and 1930's Thailand. This didn't stop them from developing skills that have stood them in very good stead and left them with the opportunity to earn an income as tradesman. All without "special connections" that for some reason a lot of people think that all well to do here have.

[ray23]

Funny, I for one have not seen too many Thai Farmer have many luxurious items such as "Mobile Phone".  I've lived in Chiangmai and Lampang and yet to see this luxurious items.  Sorry I must be blind. However, I've seen Farmers drank themself to death.  I guess we can constitute that item of being a "luxurious"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ah - forests and trees - next time take a look at the said farmers 15-25 year old son.

Heng - I cannot say I am speaking for anyone but myself - But one of the reasons I feel so strongly about issues such as these and see it as a travesty of justice is I come from my countries equivalent of thailands poor working class farmer - but I did have access to an education system that allowed me to come into contact with some very good teachers.This allowed me to to develop skills that have stood me in very good stead and left me with the opportunity to earn an income as a trademan.

Stu, so did my grandparents and their 16 siblings. All they had access to (and about half of them did not) was the education "system" of 1920's and 1930's Thailand. This didn't stop them from developing skills that have stood them in very good stead and left them with the opportunity to earn an income as tradesman. All without "special connections" that for some reason a lot of people think that all well to do here have.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here is a good rumor for you (RUMOR), a friend told me today that last year Mr. T's non owned family businesses increased 70% in value last year.

That could probably absorb a lot of that debt and more phone cards could be sold.

This is Thailand and the farmers ( poor ) are the ones who have carried the weight of bad economies for many many years before any of us came here. My guess is that they will contunue to do so for many years after we don't exist.

Not my ideas the thoughts are from the book Thailand Boom to Bust, written by Thai's.

Instant debt relief seems a bit foriegn to me, but farm subsidies don't seem foriegn at all to me. Been going on in America for many years.

I think one of the things that makes it hard to live here is our being unable to understand things that don't seem fair to us, but do seem to be a part of the history and culture of the country we live in.

Tis Thailand good and bad

[plachon]

Funny, I for one have not seen too many Thai Farmer have many luxurious items such as "Mobile Phone".  I've lived in Chiangmai and Lampang and yet to see this luxurious items.  Sorry I must be blind. However, I've seen Farmers drank themself to death.  I guess we can constitute that item of being a "luxurious"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ah - forests and trees - next time take a look at the said farmers 15-25 year old son.

Heng - I cannot say I am speaking for anyone but myself - But one of the reasons I feel so strongly about issues such as these and see it as a travesty of justice is I come from my countries equivalent of thailands poor working class farmer - but I did have access to an education system that allowed me to come into contact with some very good teachers.This allowed me to to develop skills that have stood me in very good stead and left me with the opportunity to earn an income as a trademan.

Stu, so did my grandparents and their 16 siblings. All they had access to (and about half of them did not) was the education "system" of 1920's and 1930's Thailand. This didn't stop them from developing skills that have stood them in very good stead and left them with the opportunity to earn an income as tradesman. All without "special connections" that for some reason a lot of people think that all well to do here have.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here is a good rumor for you (RUMOR), a friend told me today that last year Mr. T's non owned family businesses increased 70% in value last year.

That could probably absorb a lot of that debt and more phone cards could be sold.

This is Thailand and the farmers ( poor ) are the ones who have carried the weight of bad economies for many many years before any of us came here. My guess is that they will contunue to do so for many years after we don't exist.

Not my ideas the thoughts are from the book Thailand Boom to Bust, written by Thai's.

Instant debt relief seems a bit foriegn to me, but farm subsidies don't seem foriegn at all to me. Been going on in America for many years.

I think one of the things that makes it hard to live here is our being unable to understand things that don't seem fair to us, but do seem to be a part of the history and culture of the country we live in.

Tis Thailand good and bad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed Ray, you are right. To get an idea of how the rice farmers have been supporting this country (literally the backbone) for so long, one only has to look at the large difference in price between what farmers get paid for their paddy (currently 7-8 baht I believe) and what the consumer ends up paying (currently 14- 20 baht, depending on type and quality). By the time it gets to shops abroad it has gone up several hundred percent and the govt. has cleared a healthy tax of the backs of the farmers, thankyou v. much. Along the way from field to shop there is one helluva a lot of profit for not a lot of processing and transport. That is why self-sufficiency in rice (read: food or khao) is absolutely essential to most small farmers, if they are not to fall prey to the price gouging going on in the rice supply chain.

Good luck to them in their bid to free themselves from the bonds of debt (but just don't be tempted to slip back into it again for a mobile phone or other depreciating item, eh, Heng!)

[Heng]

Along the way from field to shop there is one helluva a lot of profit for not a lot of processing and transport. That is why self-sufficiency in rice (read: food or khao) is absolutely essential to most small farmers, if they are not to fall prey to the price gouging going on in the rice supply chain. 

Good luck to them in their bid to free themselves from the bonds of debt (but just don't be tempted to slip back into it again for a mobile phone or other depreciating item, eh, Heng!) 

If they wanted to maintain control of milling, packaging, and distribution... maybe it wasn't such a good idea to trade the mill, wagons, etc. for a sack of gold coins (I'm sure it paid for a lot sanook expenses, but hardly a decision with the long term in mind) way back when.

It's this way of thinking that has permeated the indigenous way of life to this very day:

*Gratification/sanook/pay me now, who cares about the future of one's children/family/business/etc?*

Ever want to jump 50 places in the queue ticket system at the bank? Trade your ticket + 100 Baht with an indigenous motorcycle courier. He'll think he's getting the better end of the deal, too. Never in his wildest dreams will he ever think that 30 minutes to an hour of sitting in line may be worth 100x that if he simply applied himself. And note, there is no malicious intent (to keep his family or people "down") involved either, just the application of different values and philosophies.

[sua yai]

Just to add my tuppence worth.

Thailand has been driven by the rich, elite, borrowers for ages. Just look at the financial success of say 15 years ago and the eventual collapse of the economy around 1998. This was all brought about by "get rich quick" Thais who had no care in the world for the less well off person.

I for one would have loved to have been at "The Market for the Formerly Rich" and bought up their gold, Mercs etc etc and seen them cry in the gutter. Unfortunately, I didn't have enough money.

Heng, to suggest that the poorer elements of Thai society are irresponsible with their spending and saving is correct. But, who pointed them in the right/wrong direction? They've got lots of role models to look up to havn't they? And most of the rich &lt;deleted&gt; just reneged on their debts anyway - just like the country did with The IMF etc.

In these circumstances, who can blame a farmer for wanting to better himself and his family after generations of poverty? A mobile phone? A television? Electricity bills? I thought a measure of how well a country was doing could be seen in how widesperad these add ons to life were.

But I think no. Another weekend gone in Hua Hin. Again, I'm sickened by the droves of Benz driving Bangkokians who flock here to show off their wealth and treat everyone with disdain. Bearing in mind the awful state of the economy now, I certainly will be laughing first when that paupers' market opens up again. Because,believe me it will.

If the rich, advantaged twerps can't set an example for the rest of the country, they deserve everything that's coming to them.

[Heng]

But, who pointed them in the right/wrong direction?

... they deserve everything that's coming to them.

In most cases, I'd venture that it was their parents, elder siblings, and perhaps family elders.

As for the latter point, you're right about that... many do believe they deserve it. Such is karma, you get some folks who sit (and hope?) that "what goes around" will come around, and then you have the object of their annoyance believing that "what goes around" is already here.

[chownah]

Along the way from field to shop there is one helluva a lot of profit for not a lot of processing and transport. That is why self-sufficiency in rice (read: food or khao) is absolutely essential to most small farmers, if they are not to fall prey to the price gouging going on in the rice supply chain. 

Good luck to them in their bid to free themselves from the bonds of debt (but just don't be tempted to slip back into it again for a mobile phone or other depreciating item, eh, Heng!) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If they wanted to maintain control of milling, packaging, and distribution... maybe it wasn't such a good idea to trade the mill, wagons, etc. for a sack of gold coins (I'm sure it paid for a lot sanook expenses, but hardly a decision with the long term in mind) way back when.

It's this way of thinking that has permeated the indigenous way of life to this very day:

*Gratification/sanook/pay me now, who cares about the future of one's children/family/business/etc?*

Ever want to jump 50 places in the queue ticket system at the bank? Trade your ticket + 100 Baht with an indigenous motorcycle courier. He'll think he's getting the better end of the deal, too. Never in his wildest dreams will he ever think that 30 minutes to an hour of sitting in line may be worth 100x that if he simply applied himself. And note, there is no malicious intent (to keep his family or people "down") involved either, just the application of different values and philosophies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You think a motorcycle courier's time is worth 10,000 baht per hour...if he would only apply himself? Whatever you're smoking, I want some too!!!

[Heng]

You think a motorcycle courier's time is worth 10,000 baht per hour...if he would only apply himself? Whatever you're smoking, I want some too!!!

Absolutely possible, if he started early at an early age... applying himself to athletics, reading, school, getting whatever job he could, saving most of the income, investing it, perhaps starting a business, taking the company public, etc. Hehe.

And sorry, there's no free lunch and definitely no free blunts.

[ray23]

You think a motorcycle courier's time is worth 10,000 baht per hour...if he would only apply himself? Whatever you're smoking, I want some too!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely possible, if he started early at an early age... applying himself to athletics, reading, school, getting whatever job he could, saving most of the income, investing it, perhaps starting a business, taking the company public, etc. Hehe.

And sorry, there's no free lunch and definitely no free blunts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This will never work this is what Toxin family did as Chineses immigrants, just not possible in Thailand.

[Heng]

You think a motorcycle courier's time is worth 10,000 baht per hour...if he would only apply himself? Whatever you're smoking, I want some too!!!

Absolutely possible, if he started early at an early age... applying himself to athletics, reading, school, getting whatever job he could, saving most of the income, investing it, perhaps starting a business, taking the company public, etc. Hehe.

And sorry, there's no free lunch and definitely no free blunts.

This will never work this is what Toxin family did as Chineses immigrants, just not possible in Thailand.

Definitely not possible without the right mindset.

[Ijustwannateach]

The Cloud Cuckooland mindset, possibly. To pretend that with so much against them (lack of education, lack of seed money, cultural habits against it, higher ranking family, friends, and townspeople who can dash your hopes on a whim because they don't like your face, etc., etc.) achieving even medium-scale financial success is available to ALL Thais if they put in enough effort is just silly.

Let's see, Heng... would your business today have been possible if YOU, personally, had never been able to speak English (other than typical public-school level), had not had ANY investment in your education from your family (oh, ok, I'll grant you a rural public school until M.6 level- boy, oh boy), NO business contacts achieved through your family or anyone you met on any stay outside the LOS AT ALL, and had started with, let's say, and a typical unskilled 4000B/month office, store, or service job?

Yeah, right.

[Heng]

The Cloud Cuckooland mindset, possibly.  To pretend that with so much against them (lack of education, lack of seed money, cultural habits against it, higher ranking family, friends, and townspeople who can dash your hopes on a whim because they don't like your face, etc., etc.) achieving even medium-scale financial success is available to ALL Thais if they put in enough effort is just silly.

Let's see, Heng... would your business today have been possible if YOU, personally, had never been able to speak English (other than typical public-school level), had not had ANY investment in your education from your family (oh, ok, I'll grant you a rural public school until M.6 level-  boy, oh boy), NO business contacts achieved through your family or anyone you met on any stay outside the LOS AT ALL, and had started with, let's say, and a typical unskilled 4000B/month office, store, or service job?

Yeah, right.

Let's see, with your attitude, nah, I'd probably be where you are now.

[OlRedEyes]

If my child grew up isolated and protected, then wanted to go into the wider world without being properly educated to the pitfalls that he may face, he will have a very rough ride unless he is extremely lucky.

All I've seen for years from the govt. is a message that Thailand is flying. No real education on the new temptations of debt etc. Is it a wonder everybody seems to be going crazy enjoying the new found 'wealth'?

A purely 'everything will be fine, no matter what' political message to keep the populace happy does not engender a culture of keeping balance.

In the end the piper has to be paid. And it is the majority of the populace who believed, and still believe - albeit in fast-reducing numbers - who will have to pay. I believe the tipping point has been reached. Quick and responsible action from the govt is called for, but somehow I doubt it will materialise.

My wife just came in here, furious. She's been watching the tv. Apperantly Nakhon Sawan province just had an election of some kind, and the PM's comment upon the TRT winning was that because they elected them, they will get preference over provinces who had not. Her words, how true i dont know. But when it is openly spoken, not just quietly done, it reinforces a disturbing trend thats been evident and growing for a long while.

Pie in the sky will not feed the hungry.

[fxm88]

If the rich, advantaged twerps can't set an example for the rest of the country, they deserve everything that's coming to them.

Wow. A cold but understandable sentiment. Perhaps you might enjoy watching these (the first half of the first one and the last half of the second one):

http://www.pbs.org/media/commandingheights...3_11_qt_300.mov

http://www.pbs.org/media/commandingheights...3_14_qt_300.mov

You should be aware that this man has since gone on to become a minor success again, mostly from the lecture/motivational-speaking circuit, but that shouldn't spoil it for you.