Horror In A Village House

[thaibeachlovers]

I've read a few horror stories on TV about Thai wiring- this is mine

The knife breaker has been bypassed, leading directly from outside wire to the single circuit breaker ( no switch at all ). Then it goes via 4mm cable for about 10 meters till it reaches where the house was added onto, From there it goes via a 1.5 mm cable for about 10 meters to the next addition. All the branches to various plugs and rooms are by 1.5 mm cable. In the last addition, they did use 2.5 mm cable, but everything terminates in the wood box switch holders, which are tied to the post with string.

In the big open air room which the family use all day, there are only 2 multi outlet boxes, to which mulitudes of extension boxes are added. No such thing as an earth wire anywhere ( concrete floor ). Unfortunately, when I came up to live here, I brought a big fridge and high current appliances like a toaster with me, so increased the fire risk. Freaked me out when I realised how bad the situation is, and currently taking steps to rectify it.

Under the house, is even worse, and a kindy kid could probably have done better work. The usual twisted wire with a bit of tape around, and no cable clips.

Thanks to Crossy for his excellent information.

Unfortunately, although the information I have found out on TV says I need a 2 meter ground pole, the only ones sold in the village are 1 meter. I'm using them on the basis that something is better than nothing, but are they a waste of time? The ground is very wet.

Also, the gospel is that the earth wire should be same size as the feed, but the earth wire sold in the shop is smaller. Any problems with that?

Thanks.

[Artisi]

Either the wiring has to go or you do - no argument on this fact.

[Crossy]

Yeah ^^^, certainly sounds like a rip it out and start again job.

Item 1 on your shopping list, an RCD

If you can only get 1m rods use two, put them about 1.5-2m apart and link them back to a common point.

The old adage of ground needing to be the same as the active conductor is no longer really true, use the biggest they have, if it's less than half the size of your incomer use two pieces.

[thaibeachlovers]

Yeah ^^^, certainly sounds like a rip it out and start again job.

Item 1 on your shopping list, an RCD

If you can only get 1m rods use two, put them about 1.5-2m apart and link them back to a common point.

The old adage of ground needing to be the same as the active conductor is no longer really true, use the biggest they have, if it's less than half the size of your incomer use two pieces.

Thanks for that.

I have rewired the area of the house that they use, all new wire and fittings, plastic boxes. Should be able to connect it up today. I'm going to use a bit of 4mm that someone used as a branch to a plug box!!!! and reroute the existing 4mm feed to reach the new wiring, with a cutout switch between, thereby eliminating the 1.5 feed.

As there is no cutout switch before the circuit breaker, I'm not doing anything on the live side. Can I fit an RCD on the house side of the circuit breaker?

Cost has become an issue. I've already spent a lot that I didn't budget for, so I've told my wife that the family need to get an electrician in to do the rest of the house. I may be able to use the old 2.5 wire that I've replaced to do the rooms, but a proper multi circuit system and breaker board is beyond me.

Even getting up to the wiring is a problem, as the house is very high, and a ladder that big is expensive. None available to lend amongst family friends.

It's not as though I'm going to live here permanently- my wife is just looking after her mum till her sister can take over, and it's their house, so I don't think it's really my responsibility. At least, when I've finished, the house shouldn't burn down, and there will be earths where there needs to be. Plus it'll all be nice and tidy. Amazing what a difference a few cable clips and proper connectors makes!

[Darrel]

Item 1 on your shopping list, an RCD

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

The single most important item in any Thai property.

The second being a fire extinguisher.

[thaibeachlovers]

Current situation.

There is a big green box called Select Light before the circuit breaker. I thought it just provided a light in the event of a power cut, but a switch on it cuts the power.

Having bitten the bullet and bought enough 4mm cable to reach the part of the house I've rewired, there is a plug near the circuit breaker that I can add my new 4mm cable to. It's 2.5mm but only about 10cm long, and better than keeping the entire original feed. I was wrong about it being 4mm for a large part. The only 4mm wire is from the outside wire to the circuit breaker. After that it becomes 2.5 for about 10 meters and then 1.5 to the latest house addition. However, some genius did use 4mm to reach a plug socket!

I'll leave enough cable for an electrician to wire it into the circuit breaker board when the family decide they should pay for one.

Anyway, today's the day. Quite exciting after 3 days of nailing cable clips to finally be there!

[Yme]

4.5mm from supply to house is fine.

2.5mm internal cabling for power and 1.5mm for lighting.

10amp CB for lighting and 15 - 25 amp CB for power (depending on what you are runing off it regularly)

Calculate your amperage requirements based on the formula Amps = Watts/Volts.

Therefore if your refrigerator uses 12 watts/220 volts = 0.11 amp - though the current draw will be higher when initially turned on the same as an air conditioner draws more current when first turned on.

Avoid the Thai method of sticking the bigger CB they can find in to control everything.

A one meter earth stake is ample if the ground remains reasonably moist all year long.

[Daffy D]

Visiting some of the wifes relatives a while ago. Typical wooden Thai house.

The mains electric came in through an old knife breaker that was fixed a wooden support post in the corner, all covered in dust and cobwebs and glowing red through the distorted plastic cover.

[electau]

You will require for an upgraded electrical installation.

Consumers mains minimum 10sqmm copper.

A surface mounted distribution switchboard minimum 12 poles. Use DIN protective devices for MCBs and RCBOs

A main isolator for the installation, this is generally a 2 pole MCB.

30mA RCDs on all socket outlets. Install 3 pin socket outlets. Earth (PE) all exposed metal work of electrical equipment ( A/Cs, pump motors light fittings etc)

Main earth minimum 6mm. PE earth minimum 2.5sqmm if not enclosed in the same sheath as the current carrying conductors, in which case the PE conductor may be smaller ie 1.5 or 1.0 sqmm.

One earth electrode 1.2mm in the ground exposed to the weather. 13mm copper clad steel minimum. ( in your case 2 x 1.0 meter electrodes bonded together).

A minimum of 2 x 20A power circuits and 1 x 10A lighting circuit. Power circuits 2.5sqmm lighting 1.0sqmm minimum.

TT or MEN earthing system,consult with the PEA on this requirement.

　

[thaibeachlovers]

Hi and thanks for all the info given.

Some of it, while I appreciate is the "correct" way, isn't going to happen. I've spent all I'm going to on a house that isn't and never will be mine, and that I will probably be leaving in a couple of months.

Had I not noticed the 1.5 mm wire, might not have done anything!

Situation as at present.

Power from outside goes through the Select light and the circuit breaker. Then there is about 5cm of 2.5mm wire ending in a mains switch. From that, a 20 meter 4mm cable runs the entire length of the old house to the latest of the add ons, where the family do all their living.

Once in the living area, 2.5mm branches to the kitchen area provide 4 earthed plug sockets for general use, 2 earthed sockets for 1 fridge and the microwave, and a 2 pin socket for the 2nd fridge which has a seperate casing earth wire. There are also 3 2 pin sockets for general use and 3 light switches .

A further 4mm cable takes power to the next junction, which feeds to the water pump, light switch and 2 plugs ( new 2.5mm wire ) under the house, and 2 2 pin sockets and a light switch in the house.

Then a 2.5mm cable takes power to the next junction, where there are 8 earthed sockets and 4 light switches, plus extensions to the bathroom and laundry lights and 2 earthed sockets for washing machine and iron.

While not perfect, I don't shudder everytime I see lights, 2 computers, tv, washing machine, fans, 2 fridges, rice cooker and the microwave all going at the same time. Luckily they still used charcoal for cooking, though I have upgraded them to a gas cooker.

I did shudder everytime I pulled one of the old wooden plug boxes off the wall, or took an old fluro light fitting down. I didn't think it was possible to have such bad joins and still function

Today, I'm banging in the earth poles, 2 ( 2 meter apart and connected ) solid copper 1 meter poles in 2 different locations.

The next phase will be to replace all the switches/ plugs and wooden boxes in the old house that are wired with 2.5 mm cable, but I'll be using existing wire. I'm also cutting most of the under house plugs as too dangerous- really poor wiring- leaving just 2 newly wired plug boxes.

Any further upgrading will have to be done by the house owners, and I have advised them as to what needs to be done.

[Crossy]

TBL. What over-current protection is covering this lot? With that mix of 2.5 and 4mm all over the place anything greater than 20A or so could be a source of problems.

And what size meter is providing power (it will say 5/15 or 15/45)?

Have you installed that RCD yet?

[Pib]

When it comes to electrical wiring in Thailand, "Safety First" has been the motto for decades. And it still is based on all the Safety First signs around Thailand....but watch out as those Safety First signs may be placed in a dangerous way. STOP, ignore the first statement, the motto thing was from a Chang beer induced weird dream I once had.

[Crossy]

Pib, can I have some of whatever you are / were, smoking / drinking / sniffing / taking (or any combination of those) please, even a case of Chang does not have that effect on me

[thaibeachlovers]

TBL. What over-current protection is covering this lot? With that mix of 2.5 and 4mm all over the place anything greater than 20A or so could be a source of problems.

And what size meter is providing power (it will say 5/15 or 15/45)?

Have you installed that RCD yet?

Hmmmm. There is a grey box to the side with a big red button. No writing on it, so no idea what it is. Never seen an RCD in NZ, just fuzes ( was recently living in a place with the old wire fuzes ) and recently of course, circuit breakers, so it could be one. In the room in which I lived till recently in Pattaya, the set up was the same, everything through one of those big ceramic fuze holders. Nothing that might have been the elusive RCD, and the local shop where I've been buying the wire etc, doesn't have anything called an RCD. They might be a good thing, but they're hard to find.

I'm not touching anything on the live side of the circuit breaker, including the circuit breaker. If I lever off ( it's nailed on ) the box that it is mounted on, no telling what I'll find under it. Anything further is up to the owners.

I went and checked the circuit breaker. It doesn't say what amps it is for, at least that I can understand.

What it does say is that it's made by F & G, then under the switch it says

C10,

230/ 400v,

8000

3

L7 10/ 1/ C-6

Perhaps you know from that.

I'll check the meter box tomorrow. It's mounted on the power pole at the road.

Cheers.

PS. I found a ( very small ) dead bat in the fan control box today!

3

[electau]

Many of the older Thai electrical installations the consumers mains from the metering point terminated in a European type fuse holder (E40) with a bottle type HRC fuse. From there the cabling ran to 2 pole HRC fused knife switches. Some had rewireable fused knife switches The subcircuits were connected to the load side of these switches. There was no main isolator for all of the electrical installation. There was no neutral link or mainearth. MCBs are rated in amps, 10/16/20/32/40/50/63/ 80/100 ( IEC ratings) or older MCBs may be rated 10/15/20/30/60. ( BS and NEC)

The was no neutral link or main earth. Any PE earthing was direct to an electrode.

The protective device for the 4.0sqmm power circuit should not exceed 20A as there is 2.5sqmm cabling connected to it.

You do not have to install solid copper electrodes, 13mm copper clad steel is much cheaper.

　

The box you refer to could be an RCBO the red button is the test device, but one has to see the unit to make sure.

With regard to the MCB the figures C10 could mean 10amps C frame MCB.

230/400 is the voltage rating.

8000 is the design short circuit breaking current in amps.

3 is the number of poles. This is a bit hard to determine with out seeing the MCB.

L7 unknown value. 10/1/C-6 cannot determine with out seeing item in question.

　

　

Edited July 25, 2011 by electau

[Crossy]

Electau beat me to it, looks like a 10A breaker. I'll put money on those rods from the local store being copper-clad steel anyway.

A few photos would help us identify the mystery devices

By the way TBL, a fuZe is the thing you light to detonate a bomb (even the electronic unit in modern a missile is called a fuze), a fuSe is the protective device in an electric circuit (at least in Royal Navy English)

[thaibeachlovers]

Many of the older Thai electrical installations the consumers mains from the metering point terminated in a European type fuse holder (E40) with a bottle type HRC fuse. From there the cabling ran to 2 pole HRC fused knife switches. Some had rewireable fused knife switches The subcircuits were connected to the load side of these switches. There was no main isolator for all of the electrical installation. There was no neutral link or mainearth. MCBs are rated in amps, 10/16/20/32/40/50/63/ 80/100 ( IEC ratings) or older MCBs may be rated 10/15/20/30/60. ( BS and NEC)

The was no neutral link or main earth. Any PE earthing was direct to an electrode.

The protective device for the 4.0sqmm power circuit should not exceed 20A as there is 2.5sqmm cabling connected to it.

You do not have to install solid copper electrodes, 13mm copper clad steel is much cheaper.

　

The box you refer to could be an RCBO the red button is the test device, but one has to see the unit to make sure.

With regard to the MCB the figures C10 could mean 10amps C frame MCB.

230/400 is the voltage rating.

8000 is the design short circuit breaking current in amps.

3 is the number of poles. This is a bit hard to determine with out seeing the MCB.

L7 unknown value. 10/1/C-6 cannot determine with out seeing item in question.

　

　

Thanks for that.

[thaibeachlovers]

Electau beat me to it, looks like a 10A breaker. I'll put money on those rods from the local store being copper-clad steel anyway.

A few photos would help us identify the mystery devices

By the way TBL, a fuZe is the thing you light to detonate a bomb (even the electronic unit in modern a missile is called a fuze), a fuSe is the protective device in an electric circuit (at least in Royal Navy English)

I put a magnet on the rods, and unless copper just changed its properties they are in fact copper coated steel. Might explain why they're only 100 bht a piece.

I just checked the meter ( with some difficulty, as someone decided to make a vege garden around the power pole. The meter reader's gonna be happy, not! ).

Not sure exactly which meter is ours ( several on the same pole ), but the 3 I could see all said 5/15, so I'm pickin' they're all the same.

Re spelling, I thought it looked odd at the time, but I'm of an age where it's getting hard to remember spelling of many words. Time makes fools of us all, eh!

[Pib]

A meter rated at 5/15 is a 15 amp max meter, with a 5 amp test/calibration rating.

[Crossy]

A meter rated at 5/15 is a 15 amp max meter, with a 5 amp test/calibration rating.

So it's going to be just fine with his 10A incomer

[thaibeachlovers]

Banged the 4 earth poles in today, but now everyone is telling my wife that they will attract lightning, and she is getting paranoid about it.

Obviously not having an earth is not an option, but is there in fact anything to worry about, and if there is, can I do anything about it?

Thanks.

[Pib]

Banged the 4 earth poles in today, but now everyone is telling my wife that they will attract lightning, and she is getting paranoid about it.

Obviously not having an earth is not an option, but is there in fact anything to worry about, and if there is, can I do anything about it?

Thanks.

The metal ground poles are at the same voltage potential as the earth they are drove into; so, lightning can't distinguish the poles from the rest of the millions of rai of land in Thailand.

The majority of Thai's ain't got a clue about electricity other than it makes their cell phone charger work. And most think that when a lightning storm occurs all they need to do is turn off the power strip switch to protect their TV from lightning....of course, they leave the aerial/outside antenna wire hooked to the back of the TV...you know, that big metal antenna sticking up into the sky just begging to be struck by lightning.

[thaibeachlovers]

Banged the 4 earth poles in today, but now everyone is telling my wife that they will attract lightning, and she is getting paranoid about it.

Obviously not having an earth is not an option, but is there in fact anything to worry about, and if there is, can I do anything about it?

Thanks.

The metal ground poles are at the same voltage potential as the earth they are drove into; so, lightning can't distinguish the poles from the rest of the millions of rai of land in Thailand.

The majority of Thai's ain't got a clue about electricity other than it makes their cell phone charger work. And most think that when a lightning storm occurs all they need to do is turn off the power strip switch to protect their TV from lightning....of course, they leave the aerial/outside antenna wire hooked to the back of the TV...you know, that big metal antenna sticking up into the sky just begging to be struck by lightning.

Thanks for that information.

I showed it to my wife, plus about the tv aerial. She then told the MIL, who started laughing. Perhaps something got lost in translation!

Anyway, she's happy now, though I doubt she has a clue about voltage, let alone voltage potential.