Disappearing Farang?

[JSixpack]

Just take a baht bus ride up 2nd and down beach around 9:PM, and what do you see? Empty bars full of unhappy faces,package tourists walking around, and the money draining central Festival doing a brisk trade.

Congratulations. You've finally noticed that it is low season. Comes around every year.

[tropo]

Just take a baht bus ride up 2nd and down beach around 9:PM, and what do you see? Empty bars full of unhappy faces,

You must mean the girls are unhappy, because the customers certainly should be more happy than usual with cleaner, fresher girls to choose from.

As you probably know, there has always been a huge oversupply of beer bars and gogos in Pattaya. Empty bars doesn't mean much at all in relation to the local economy. Most of those bars have never been going concerns and are sponsored by guys with more money than sense. In fact, in Pattaya there is an oversupply of just about every business you can think of. Add them all together and you'll find the overall economy is doing just fine. No matter how many tourists are coming here, they'll always be twice as many businesses as required to service their needs.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

@hyku1147

Pattaya is an ugly city, and with all the over building, and lack of improvements on the water and power systems it is only going to get worse.

This is merely the old knee-jerk Spiraling Downward fallacy that's always part of any Dying Pattaya thread.

Well, it's utter nonsense to say the infrastructure hasn't improved. Here's a list for the blind: the roads are greatly improved (resurfacing; widening and resurfacing of Soi 16 Naklua), new roads have been built (3rd Rd. an outstanding example; the new road from the airport; lots of roadwork, water, and power on the Darkside), cables have been buried (three times or so), new lights are up on Beach Rd., stop lights are much better (w/ timers), new pedestrian lights and crosswalks, the Beach Road walkway, new power cables leading to Central Festival (partly paid by Central), Wong Amart walkway. Water shortages are nearly as bad recently as they have been, nor have power outages. Internet service has VASTLY improved in the last 10 years as has cellphone service--which of course required gov't help and sponsorship.

Having lost that point, you'll fall back on the maintenance issue. True, maintenance leaves much to be desired. That has always been the case and constitutes no evidence to support the much-beloved Dying Pattaya religion. It's a Third World country; it's Thailand. Thais don't maintain their own personal stuff either.

At no time could you ever walk unobstructed and freely on any Pattaya sidewalk.

@Awohalitsiktoli

the only way to get an idea of what is happening on the ground is to talk to shop owners like you did. Clearly, business is down and has been down (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting. Tourism is also down.

No. Business is up and has been up (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting. Tourism is also up. See evidence above; you've given no evidence of your own at all, just a lot of the usual hot air. You might read over the thread "Why Is Everything Opening Up?" where all of your assertions have been made by others and refuted: http://www.thaivisa....03__hl__opening

@marinediscoking

Several business owners are telling me their revenues are down about 15% compared to last year this time.

As tropo would say, LOL. Pattaya small business owners are notorious for poor-mouthing. You see, they say that every year. If it were true, they'd be LONG gone. Anyway, there are more businesses now (igore Awohalitsiktoli) dividing up the pie and many tourists are shifting towards Soi Buakaow.

Your "survey" is totally meaningless. In the meantime, take a look at the new businesses and renovations (referenced above). Why don't you survey Central food court vendors?

@TheWalkingMan

new go-go bars being built. That is one indicator I would not rely on when judging how busy Pattaya is. These places come and go like the moon and just because it has been built, does not mean people will come. A better judge would be the number of go-go bars full as opposed to 3 or 4 being full.

For purely research purposes, last night I visited the new go-gos on Soi Buakaow and Soi LK Metro. And I found them practically full. Frankly, I was rather surprised as it IS low season. They are doing quite well it seems. Check 'em out for yourself. Other bars around always had some customers, some, like Witherspoon's, were even crowded

So my point still stands.

@tropo

Those photos of Detroit showing dilapidated schools and other buildings doesn't really mean much. You could probably put together a slide show of about a dozen dilapidated buildings in most cities. You'd be surprised how many dilapidated buildings exist in Pattaya.

On the contrary, those photos underline quite well and appropriately the contrast of a vibrant growing city such as PTY with a truly dying city, Detroit, for our silly resident gloom-and-doom posters.

True, PTY has some dilapidated buildings, but they weren't once prominent, valuable, and magnificent. For Pattaya to be DYING, we'd need to see a dilapidated Pattaya Nua bus station (corresponding to the dilapidated but once magnificent Detroit train station), a dilapidated Tiffany Show building, and the ruins of Dusit Hotel and Central Festival. In PTY exactly the opposite has happened in the last 10 years: the prominent derelicts have been renovated spectacularly. For example, the pile of rusting girders that is now Northshore; the derelict apt. building on Soi 15 running behind The Avenue is now condos; and similarly the old semi-circular building on Beach Rd--all of which couldn't possibly happen in Detroit, which has lost 25% of its residents in the last 10 years as opposed to the new residents coming to PTY that lead to a housing boom.

@Awohalitsiktoli

I need two emoticons to reply to nonsense: 1) "that was total disinformation" and 2) "that was totally boring." I think those two should be added to the list of emoticons.

Just more blowing smoke in the face of facts, pal. Everyone can see that. Now, Nightmarch noted all the new openings and renovations; I've seen them myself; and anyone can just go right over to, say, Soi Buakaow and see them. While you've known, oh, 5 farangs who've left PTY, Northpoint has sold out its foreign quota (~182 condos). There's much, much more: contrast the Darkside 10 years ago w/ today.

It seems you don't know what's going on in PTY at all. Are you never embarrassed? (Don't answer that.) But yes, it must be boring to be totally routed--I can only imagine.

Wow, you must have some real big rose coloured glasses

the roads are greatly improved (resurfacing; widening and resurfacing of Soi 16 Naklua)

One or two new/ improved does not indicate general improvement.

The one way system is rubbish, especially when it could easily be 2 way

new roads have been built (3rd Rd. an outstanding example

Rubbish- when they built that, it was lined with open land and would have been so easy to make 2 lane each way with angle parking. I said at the time it was a BIG mistake, as it has proven.

new lights are up on Beach Rd.

Maybe so, but they would have done better spending the money on an upgrade of the disgraceful derelict walkway

new pedestrian lights

That don't stop the traffic. What a waste of money, and they still haven't put lights on the entrances to Buakhao

the Beach Road walkway

That decepit, disgusting broken down pile of rubble-<deleted>

Internet service has VASTLY improved in the last 10 years .

I get excellent broadband in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere. Pattaya had better be as good.

At no time could you ever walk unobstructed and freely on any Pattaya sidewalk.

If they can't fix the pavements, they have no right to claim to be an upmarket tourist destination

No. Business is up and has been up (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting

Maybe so, but why hasn't the infrastructure improved to reflect that. The public infrastructure hasn't improved since the last walkway upgrade

Tourism is also up

From people that don't spend a lot of money, so it's not going to the local shop/ bar owners.

many tourists are shifting towards Soi Buakaow

And what a disaster that street is. Too narrow for 2 way traffic and NO PAVEMENTS.

For purely research purposes, last night I visited the new go-gos on Soi Buakaow and Soi LK Metro. And I found them practically full

A few gogos does not make for a prosperous night life scene. Do you know how many bars and gogos there are- a lot, and few doing well

In PTY exactly the opposite has happened in the last 10 years: the prominent derelicts have been renovated spectacularly. For example, the pile of rusting girders that is now Northshore

But what's the occupancy rate? Most of them seem spectacularly unoccupied whenever I pass by

the derelict apt. building on Soi 15 running behind The Avenue is now condos

And the Avenue is a prime example of incompetence- badly designed, poorly built, stupid paving, no AC, usually with only about 50% occupancy

While you've known, oh, 5 farangs who've left PTY, Northpoint has sold out its foreign quota (~182 condos).

And how many of them are owned by "investors" as compared to occupants

There's much, much more: contrast the Darkside 10 years ago w/ today.

The darkside isn't relevant to tourist Pattaya.

It seems you don't know what's going on in PTY at all

Do you?

it must be boring to be totally routed--I can only imagine.

Who's been routed?:

Thanks for the excellent post Thaibeachlovers. Somebody needed to kick 6 pack's backside. I know longer have the patience to deal with nonsense posts that are deliberately misleading, only contain a partial truth, and leave out essential information. But I think most readers know what 6 pack is up to. And I am sure (NOT) that 6 pack has nothing to do with the real estate business. LOL Every time the rose-colored glasses brigade talks like they just attended a real estate self-help seminar on Pattaya-Jomtien my mind tends to focus on Ocean 1. How long has it been now, about a 6 pack year since first dreamed up? If things were really great, it would already be filled to the brim with the mysterious rich Russians and Chinese investors. Unfortunately, reality sometimes bites!

[tropo]

Thanks for the excellent post Thaibeachlovers. Somebody needed to kick 6 pack's backside. I know longer have the patience to deal with nonsense posts that are deliberately misleading, only contain a partial truth, and leave out essential information. But I think most readers know what 6 pack is up to. And I am sure (NOT) that 6 pack has nothing to do with the real estate business. LOL Every time the rose-colored glasses brigade talks like they just attended a real estate self-help seminar on Pattaya-Jomtien my mind tends to focus on Ocean 1. How long has it been now, about a 6 pack year since first dreamed up? If things were really great, it would already be filled to the brim with the mysterious rich Russians and Chinese investors. Unfortunately, reality sometimes bites!

That's pretty weak... kissing the behind of the only member who agrees with you. In your opinion anyone who doesn't agree is either spouting nonsense or requires a lobotomy.

[vpi78]

Do any of you Pattaya Doomsayers ever actually get out and walk around and try to say use a. baht bus, or go to a. Movie, or anything that a functioning person does outside the Internet? Don't answer that Awotiskoidiot, because everyone is on to your BS.

For low season the place is incredibly congested. Too bad that does not fit with your predictions of Pattay's demise.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Do any of you Pattaya Doomsayers ever actually get out and walk around and try to say use a. baht bus, or go to a. Movie, or anything that a functioning person does outside the Internet? Don't answer that Awotiskoidiot, because everyone is on to your BS.

For low season the place is incredibly congested. Too bad that does not fit with your predictions of Pattay's demise.

Two misleading posts in a row. I should not bother to respond. But, readers should note that none of us are "doomsayers." And I am not kissing a person who agrees with me. He simply posted something that made sense and was balanced in terms of his assessment of the situation. IMHO misleading views that are not balanced are not worth responding to. Informed views that are balanced are worth responding to. Every poster can decide for him or herself which posts are worth responding to. Experience tells me it is a waste of time responding to both 6 pack and Tropo.

[JSixpack]

Welcome Mr. Economic Planner. Was wondering when you'd show up; you're late.

Well, your inability to handle quoting, so mixing in my comments with your own, makes it not worth replying to each of your--well, not arguments, but mere assertions, expressions of disappointment, and sneers of superior prescience. I'll have to give a general response.

Most of your post misses the point, and so is directed at some straw man. The point, you see, isn't whether the Thai authorities planned perfectly for the future growth of PTY. Nobody could possibly think that they did. They planned in typical short-sighted Thai fashion. Nevertheless, the very imperfect infrastructure, consistent with Thai standards in general, works adequately well. It has made possible and economically viable in PTY the huge new shopping areas and department stores and condos and a huge number of other businesses and homes.

Now, even in a First World country, governments often don't plan well enough for the future. Freeways often don't solve traffic congestion for very long simply because they just attract more people and economic activity to the area. It's usually a losing battle in an expanding economy. In Detroit, it's not a losing battle because that city really IS dying, having lost 25% of its population in the last 10 years.

However, this is a poor Third World country and just like all the other Third World countries in the world lacks the financial means to create a really first-class infrastructure. Compare apples to apples, such as Bangkok to Manila or Jakarta.

If the government did in fact create really great, first-class infrastructure, then taxes would be far higher and therefore the prices paid for everything. Yes, you could have your beer on a wide, spacious, landscaped Soi Buakaow--but that beer would then cost you B150 (I can hear the screams), not B45-65, as it does in countries with excellent infrastructures. The SV airport is a world-class structure, and a beer will cost you as much there as it will in the Los Angeles airport.

So, most of us are happy with the tradeoff. We can't afford to live or even vacation in Aspen or Monaco or Santa Barbara (and enjoy what we do here). And many of us like the funky mess of it all. PTY has a lot of character precisely because it is so unplanned and disorganized. PTY isn't for anyone who can't deal with that and who needs a slower, more ordered pace.

The point I made about infrastructure, then, which you chose pretty much to ignore so that you could wank over your superior prescience and planning ability (which after all requires no expenditure of your own money), is still that the authorities have IN FACT done a great deal of work to improve the infrastructure in the last 10 years. That I listed a few examples--sufficient to disprove the Dying Pattaya and Spiraling Downhill myths that nothing has been done--doesn't mean there are not many, many more examples. There are; and you can go see them for yourself rather than waiting for me to spoon-feed you.

That work made possible much expansion and growth of PTY--which, between the lines, you acknowledge. For example, you admit 3rd Road was built in open land where there was nothing. Now a vast number of new businesses and housing line that road. Without the road, it would have remained open land. Yes, yes, Mr. Economic Planner: it could have been an even wider road! Yawn.

A few other specific points:

1. The new pedestrian lights ARE working pretty well. The past few days I've had to stop several times on Beach Rd. and on 2nd Rd.--with all the other traffic--for those lights, to let pedestrians across. Hate to burst that little balloon for you; I know it was much cherished.
   
2. The farang quotas of Northshore and Northpoint are sold out. The notion that you can drive by a condo building and judge its occupancy or success by the number of lights on a particular time is both naive and laughable. It has been discussed not too long ago in another Chicken Little thread, the recurring Overbuilt Pattaya, a variant of Dying Pattaya. Pattaya is primarily a vacation resort; people are always coming in and going back; many of the permanent residents are settled and go to bed relatively early. Living near a high rise, I see exactly that most every night. My Belgian neighbor is very typical: he and his wife live most of the year in PTY and go back for summers in their home country.
   
3. No, Pattaya can't be discussed without referring to the Darkside. It belongs to the city, is a major part of the economy, and a great deal of infrastructure money has been spent over there. In the last 10 years, an incredible number of farangs have moved in over there, far more than the 5 or so that you know who have left Pattaya in disgust muttering the usual inflated, arrogant cliches--which we heard in the Pattaya Mail Letters To The Editor long before thaivisa.com even existed--about "goose who killed the golden egg" and "last nail in the coffin."
   
4. Nobody ever claimed that Pattaya wants ONLY upscale tourists and IS an upscale resort, such as Monaco. But it has definitely expanded to include more upscale tourists and they are here and more are coming. My prediction: you will not see the Hilton hotel close within your lifetime.
   
5. Russians, for example, spend a lot of money in certain restaurants, some shops, and in the better hotels. Think about it: you don't see them in cheap guest houses but there are a huge number of them around. Chinese spend a lot on better hotels, shopping and Tiffany and Alcazar, among other places. I could go on, but this is all just a repeat.
   

See you in next year's Dying Pattaya thread during the low season? We'll kick around Third Road again.

Wow, you must have some real big rose coloured glasses

the roads are greatly improved (resurfacing; widening and resurfacing of Soi 16 Naklua)

One or two new/ improved does not indicate general improvement.

The one way system is rubbish, especially when it could easily be 2 way

new roads have been built (3rd Rd. an outstanding example

Rubbish- when they built that, it was lined with open land and would have been so easy to make 2 lane each way with angle parking. I said at the time it was a BIG mistake, as it has proven.

new lights are up on Beach Rd.

Maybe so, but they would have done better spending the money on an upgrade of the disgraceful derelict walkway

new pedestrian lights

That don't stop the traffic. What a waste of money, and they still haven't put lights on the entrances to Buakhao

the Beach Road walkway

That decepit, disgusting broken down pile of rubble-<deleted>

Internet service has VASTLY improved in the last 10 years .

I get excellent broadband in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere. Pattaya had better be as good.

At no time could you ever walk unobstructed and freely on any Pattaya sidewalk.

If they can't fix the pavements, they have no right to claim to be an upmarket tourist destination

No. Business is up and has been up (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting

Maybe so, but why hasn't the infrastructure improved to reflect that. The public infrastructure hasn't improved since the last walkway upgrade

Tourism is also up

From people that don't spend a lot of money, so it's not going to the local shop/ bar owners.

many tourists are shifting towards Soi Buakaow

And what a disaster that street is. Too narrow for 2 way traffic and NO PAVEMENTS.

For purely research purposes, last night I visited the new go-gos on Soi Buakaow and Soi LK Metro. And I found them practically full

A few gogos does not make for a prosperous night life scene. Do you know how many bars and gogos there are- a lot, and few doing well

In PTY exactly the opposite has happened in the last 10 years: the prominent derelicts have been renovated spectacularly. For example, the pile of rusting girders that is now Northshore

But what's the occupancy rate? Most of them seem spectacularly unoccupied whenever I pass by

the derelict apt. building on Soi 15 running behind The Avenue is now condos

And the Avenue is a prime example of incompetence- badly designed, poorly built, stupid paving, no AC, usually with only about 50% occupancy

While you've known, oh, 5 farangs who've left PTY, Northpoint has sold out its foreign quota (~182 condos).

And how many of them are owned by "investors" as compared to occupants

There's much, much more: contrast the Darkside 10 years ago w/ today.

The darkside isn't relevant to tourist Pattaya.

It seems you don't know what's going on in PTY at all

Do you?

it must be boring to be totally routed--I can only imagine.

Who's been routed?:

Edited July 26, 2011 by JSixpack

[tropo]

Experience tells me it is a waste of time responding to both 6 pack and Tropo.

...yet you continue to respond. It has been obvious for the longest time that you're out of touch with what really goes on in Pattaya.

[Gaccha]

seems ok to me, westrern economires in a very bad way, exchange rate poor ans other destinations offering better value for the money. have not noticed to many bars closing, they are usually reopened straight away.

must admit i have been ex pat for 10 years but like many others thinking of relocating else where in Asia where i feel my money would be better appreciated, and not have all the hassle of visa's and farang cannot do this and cannot do that. they killed the goose that laid the golden egg

NaRak,, being an expat here for 23++ years I can only say, your money is appreciated but you don't have any, that's the way I see you. And I'm going to be sick of all "farangs" like you who moan about .. killing the goose that laid the golden egg... grow up man and do your thing and don't complain, because first of all, this is Thailand meaning Thai peoples country and not yours, they make their own rules and not rules you are looking for, it's just ridiculous what 90% of you guys are complaining about instead making up their own life here...

Of course we know all this which does not mean that some rules and regulations can be annoying

like e.g. censorship of the internet or this 90 day rule. I think there is a widespread feeling of Thais

do as we like or get lost which is easy to say for them even if it means lighting your bedroom brighter

than the sun with advertising light, having a shootrange just around the corner or whatever because

if you have a suggestion for alternative destination say it.

Actually there is none. That LOS is in the tourist industry dating back to the Vietnam war

gives it a lead over any other country considering factors like farang-compatibility, climate and a mad

running realestate sector. And of course most of us loathe the thought of going back to the country

of origin taking into acount a mentality we discover when looking in the mirror or of course the climate

My view is that there are probably more Farang in Pattaya today than there has ever been. The place is evolving like all places. In Pattaya's case from a former US serviceman's RnR spot in the 60s/early 70s to a play area for Middle East construction guys from the mid 70s. The Gulf Arabs and Germans discovered the place about the same time as the construction stiffs although until about the 90s they tended to stay in their own little enclaves.

Seems like the Chavs discovered the place in the 90s about the same time as the big real estate developers. The chavettes started coming in the 00s and about mid-decade the bus loads of Indians and Russians.

Eventually the Thais will take the place back and there has always been a weekend boom in BKK Thais down to Pattaya. That trend will build as the strengthening Thai economy eventually replaces low budget tourists with higher budget natives and tourists.

Interesting. Even though 'the chav' was not uncovered until 2003, they were already roaming the area of Pattaya. Why did nobody notice... 555+

[dean999]

Give me a Russian over a tattoed UK chav any day.

As for bars closing down, that is just plain BS.

You are :sleepy: and a :jerk:. Why don't you just stay in your house and off the internet and people don't have to listen to your boring rants. Do you even know what a chav is?

[dogtim]

Give me a Russian over a tattoed UK chav any day.

As for bars closing down, that is just plain BS.

You are :sleepy: and a :jerk:. Why don't you just stay in your house and off the internet and people don't have to listen to your boring rants. Do you even know what a chav is?

[vpi78]

My view is that there are probably more Farang in Pattaya today than there has ever been. The place is evolving like all places. In Pattaya's case from a former US serviceman's RnR spot in the 60s/early 70s to a play area for Middle East construction guys from the mid 70s. The Gulf Arabs and Germans discovered the place about the same time as the construction stiffs although until about the 90s they tended to stay in their own little enclaves.

Seems like the Chavs discovered the place in the 90s about the same time as the big real estate developers. The chavettes started coming in the 00s and about mid-decade the bus loads of Indians and Russians.

Eventually the Thais will take the place back and there has always been a weekend boom in BKK Thais down to Pattaya. That trend will build as the strengthening Thai economy eventually replaces low budget tourists with higher budget natives and tourists.

Interesting. Even though 'the chav' was not uncovered until 2003, they were already roaming the area of Pattaya. Why did nobody notice... 555+

Despite what Mr. Google may tell you dear boy, the word or acronym Chav was in use well before 2003.

But if you prefer tattooed skinhead will do.

[thaibeachlovers]

Welcome Mr. Economic Planner. Was wondering when you'd show up; you're late.

Well, your inability to handle quoting, so mixing in my comments with your own, makes it not worth replying to each of your--well, not arguments, but mere assertions, expressions of disappointment, and sneers of superior prescience. I'll have to give a general response.

Most of your post misses the point, and so is directed at some straw man. The point, you see, isn't whether the Thai authorities planned perfectly for the future growth of PTY. Nobody could possibly think that they did. They planned in typical short-sighted Thai fashion. Nevertheless, the very imperfect infrastructure, consistent with Thai standards in general, works adequately well. It has made possible and economically viable in PTY the huge new shopping areas and department stores and condos and a huge number of other businesses and homes.

Now, even in a First World country, governments often don't plan well enough for the future. Freeways often don't solve traffic congestion for very long simply because they just attract more people and economic activity to the area. It's usually a losing battle in an expanding economy. In Detroit, it's not a losing battle because that city really IS dying, having lost 25% of its population in the last 10 years.

However, this is a poor Third World country and just like all the other Third World countries in the world lacks the financial means to create a really first-class infrastructure. Compare apples to apples, such as Bangkok to Manila or Jakarta.

If the government did in fact create really great, first-class infrastructure, then taxes would be far higher and therefore the prices paid for everything. Yes, you could have your beer on a wide, spacious, landscaped Soi Buakaow--but that beer would then cost you B150 (I can hear the screams), not B45-65, as it does in countries with excellent infrastructures. The SV airport is a world-class structure, and a beer will cost you as much there as it will in the Los Angeles airport.

So, most of us are happy with the tradeoff. We can't afford to live or even vacation in Aspen or Monaco or Santa Barbara (and enjoy what we do here). And many of us like the funky mess of it all. PTY has a lot of character precisely because it is so unplanned and disorganized. PTY isn't for anyone who can't deal with that and who needs a slower, more ordered pace.

The point I made about infrastructure, then, which you chose pretty much to ignore so that you could wank over your superior prescience and planning ability (which after all requires no expenditure of your own money), is still that the authorities have IN FACT done a great deal of work to improve the infrastructure in the last 10 years. That I listed a few examples--sufficient to disprove the Dying Pattaya and Spiraling Downhill myths that nothing has been done--doesn't mean there are not many, many more examples. There are; and you can go see them for yourself rather than waiting for me to spoon-feed you.

That work made possible much expansion and growth of PTY--which, between the lines, you acknowledge. For example, you admit 3rd Road was built in open land where there was nothing. Now a vast number of new businesses and housing line that road. Without the road, it would have remained open land. Yes, yes, Mr. Economic Planner: it could have been an even wider road! Yawn.

A few other specific points:

1. The new pedestrian lights ARE working pretty well. The past few days I've had to stop several times on Beach Rd. and on 2nd Rd.--with all the other traffic--for those lights, to let pedestrians across. Hate to burst that little balloon for you; I know it was much cherished.
2. The farang quotas of Northshore and Northpoint are sold out. The notion that you can drive by a condo building and judge its occupancy or success by the number of lights on a particular time is both naive and laughable. It has been discussed not too long ago in another Chicken Little thread, the recurring Overbuilt Pattaya, a variant of Dying Pattaya. Pattaya is primarily a vacation resort; people are always coming in and going back; many of the permanent residents are settled and go to bed relatively early. Living near a high rise, I see exactly that most every night. My Belgian neighbor is very typical: he and his wife live most of the year in PTY and go back for summers in their home country.
3. No, Pattaya can't be discussed without referring to the Darkside. It belongs to the city, is a major part of the economy, and a great deal of infrastructure money has been spent over there. In the last 10 years, an incredible number of farangs have moved in over there, far more than the 5 or so that you know who have left Pattaya in disgust muttering the usual inflated, arrogant cliches--which we heard in the Pattaya Mail Letters To The Editor long before thaivisa.com even existed--about "goose who killed the golden egg" and "last nail in the coffin."
4. Nobody ever claimed that Pattaya wants ONLY upscale tourists and IS an upscale resort, such as Monaco. But it has definitely expanded to include more upscale tourists and they are here and more are coming. My prediction: you will not see the Hilton hotel close within your lifetime.
5. Russians, for example, spend a lot of money in certain restaurants, some shops, and in the better hotels. Think about it: you don't see them in cheap guest houses but there are a huge number of them around. Chinese spend a lot on better hotels, shopping and Tiffany and Alcazar, among other places. I could go on, but this is all just a repeat.

See you in next year's Dying Pattaya thread during the low season? We'll kick around Third Road again.

Wow, you must have some real big rose coloured glasses

the roads are greatly improved (resurfacing; widening and resurfacing of Soi 16 Naklua)

One or two new/ improved does not indicate general improvement.

The one way system is rubbish, especially when it could easily be 2 way

new roads have been built (3rd Rd. an outstanding example

Rubbish- when they built that, it was lined with open land and would have been so easy to make 2 lane each way with angle parking. I said at the time it was a BIG mistake, as it has proven.

new lights are up on Beach Rd.

Maybe so, but they would have done better spending the money on an upgrade of the disgraceful derelict walkway

new pedestrian lights

That don't stop the traffic. What a waste of money, and they still haven't put lights on the entrances to Buakhao

the Beach Road walkway

That decepit, disgusting broken down pile of rubble-<deleted>

Internet service has VASTLY improved in the last 10 years .

I get excellent broadband in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere. Pattaya had better be as good.

At no time could you ever walk unobstructed and freely on any Pattaya sidewalk.

If they can't fix the pavements, they have no right to claim to be an upmarket tourist destination

No. Business is up and has been up (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting

Maybe so, but why hasn't the infrastructure improved to reflect that. The public infrastructure hasn't improved since the last walkway upgrade

Tourism is also up

From people that don't spend a lot of money, so it's not going to the local shop/ bar owners.

many tourists are shifting towards Soi Buakaow

And what a disaster that street is. Too narrow for 2 way traffic and NO PAVEMENTS.

For purely research purposes, last night I visited the new go-gos on Soi Buakaow and Soi LK Metro. And I found them practically full

A few gogos does not make for a prosperous night life scene. Do you know how many bars and gogos there are- a lot, and few doing well

In PTY exactly the opposite has happened in the last 10 years: the prominent derelicts have been renovated spectacularly. For example, the pile of rusting girders that is now Northshore

But what's the occupancy rate? Most of them seem spectacularly unoccupied whenever I pass by

the derelict apt. building on Soi 15 running behind The Avenue is now condos

And the Avenue is a prime example of incompetence- badly designed, poorly built, stupid paving, no AC, usually with only about 50% occupancy

While you've known, oh, 5 farangs who've left PTY, Northpoint has sold out its foreign quota (~182 condos).

And how many of them are owned by "investors" as compared to occupants

There's much, much more: contrast the Darkside 10 years ago w/ today.

The darkside isn't relevant to tourist Pattaya.

It seems you don't know what's going on in PTY at all

Do you?

it must be boring to be totally routed--I can only imagine.

Who's been routed?:

Nevertheless, the very imperfect infrastructure, consistent with Thai standards in general, works adequately well.

Really, IMO it works REALLY BADLY. Just take a walk along Beach Rd and tell me what is working well. Can't walk safely on the broken walkway for the holes, and the pavement on the other side of the road is too narrow, too broken and too congested to walk on. I usually end up on the road dodging the cars. Some upclass resort, NOT.

It has made possible and economically viable in PTY the huge new shopping areas and department stores and condos and a huge number of other businesses and homes.

Economically viable! Wait till the world recession really kicks in.

Now, even in a First World country, governments often don't plan well enough for the future.

Maybe not, but they do enforce rules like no illegal parking and keep the pavements clear so people can walk on them instead of in the street

However, this is a poor Third World country

Rubbish! Thailand is very rich. It's just that so much is stolen by certain persons that it appears to be poor

and just like all the other Third World countries in the world lacks the financial means to create a really first-class infrastructure

The Skytrain and the expressways are first class, as are most of the country's roads and the elecrical distribution system is tops.

If the government did in fact create really great, first-class infrastructure, then taxes would be far higher and therefore the prices paid for everything. Yes, you could have your beer on a wide, spacious, landscaped Soi Buakaow

Obviously you want Pattaya to become a Bangkok clone. I don't. I want it to stay as a decrepit broken place full of bar beers and GoGos, and no families.

The SV airport is a world-class structure,

SB is a badly designed piece of crap, and it is falling apart already. The idiot that recommended the fabric coverings needs a good kicking!

and a beer will cost you as much there as it will in the Los Angeles airport.

I don't buy anything past emmigration as the prices are a rip off, just like every major airport.. I buy food at Family Mart and carry it through to eat while waiting.

So, most of us are happy with the tradeoff. We can't afford to live or even vacation in Aspen or Monaco or Santa Barbara (and enjoy what we do here). And many of us like the funky mess of it all. PTY has a lot of character precisely because it is so unplanned and disorganized. PTY isn't for anyone who can't deal with that and who needs a slower, more ordered pace.

If you're so happy with it, why are you talking up the very things that are destroying it's character, like Central?

The point I made about infrastructure,

The stuff that hasn't been repaired for 10 years?

then, which you chose pretty much to ignore so that you could wank over your superior prescience and planning ability

A kindy kid could do a better job of running Pattaya, but then they aren't corrupt.

(which after all requires no expenditure of your own money), is still that the authorities have IN FACT done a great deal of work to improve the infrastructure in the last 10 years.

A few big lights along Beach Rd while the last 2 variations fall apart below, and a lot of pedestrian crossing lights which don't work most of the time, while there are no lights where they are needed. BIG DEAL

That I listed a few examples--sufficient to disprove the Dying Pattaya

I've never said Pattaya was dying.

and Spiraling Downhill

Changing, but not in a good way

myths that nothing has been done

Facts

--doesn't mean there are not many, many more examples. There are; and you can go see them for yourself

I know all about Pattaya's crumbling infrastructure. I've walked it all from the disintigrating lighthouse to the vanishing walkway around the encroached landfill at the top end of Beach Rd

That work made possible much expansion and growth of PTY--which, between the lines, you acknowledge. For example, you admit 3rd Road was built in open land where there was nothing. Now a vast number of new businesses and housing line that road. Without the road, it would have remained open land.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I never said they shouldn't have built 3rd Rd, but they could have made a decent thoroughfare instead of the present congested disaster- they had no excuse for stuffing it up

The new pedestrian lights ARE working pretty well. The past few days I've had to stop several times on Beach Rd. and on 2nd Rd.--with all the other traffic--for those lights, to let pedestrians across. Hate to burst that little balloon for you; I know it was much cherished.

The lights don't work on the weekends and some never work

The farang quotas of Northshore and Northpoint are sold out.

Not saying they aren't, but do they live there?

No, Pattaya can't be discussed without referring to the Darkside. It belongs to the city, is a major part of the economy, and a great deal of infrastructure money has been spent over there. In the last 10 years, an incredible number of farangs have moved in over there, far more than the 5 or so that you know who have left Pattaya in disgust muttering the usual inflated, arrogant cliches

I don't know anyone that has left

Nobody ever claimed that Pattaya wants ONLY upscale tourists

Yes they do

and IS an upscale resort, such as Monaco.

Have you never read the rubbish that tourist orgnisations write about Pattaya?

But it has definitely expanded to include more upscale tourists and they are here and more are coming. My prediction: you will not see the Hilton hotel close within your lifetime.

And I bet they are really impressed when they walk out of the hotel and the disaster of Pattaya hits them in the face.

Russians, for example, spend a lot of money in certain restaurants, some shops, and in the better hotels. Think about it: you don't see them in cheap guest houses but there are a huge number of them around. Chinese spend a lot on better hotels, shopping and Tiffany and Alcazar, among other places.

And your point is?

[somtampet]

I have lived here since 2004 and the place just gets better and better in my eyes.I thought russians were farangs too ?????

[Rimmer]

It is against forum rules to alter a previous posters original post and insert your own text in the middle of it, it also makes it difficult to read so please stop it.

If you wish to reply to a post then use the reply button this is the only acceptable way to reply to a post.

The next time this happens the entire post will be deleted.

[iano]

when im in pattaya i dont see falangs........i only see thai birds.........so its all good

[tropo]

@tropo

Those photos of Detroit showing dilapidated schools and other buildings doesn't really mean much. You could probably put together a slide show of about a dozen dilapidated buildings in most cities. You'd be surprised how many dilapidated buildings exist in Pattaya.

On the contrary, those photos underline quite well and appropriately the contrast of a vibrant growing city such as PTY with a truly dying city, Detroit, for our silly resident gloom-and-doom posters.

True, PTY has some dilapidated buildings, but they weren't once prominent, valuable, and magnificent. For Pattaya to be DYING, we'd need to see a dilapidated Pattaya Nua bus station (corresponding to the dilapidated but once magnificent Detroit train station), a dilapidated Tiffany Show building, and the ruins of Dusit Hotel and Central Festival. In PTY exactly the opposite has happened in the last 10 years: the prominent derelicts have been renovated spectacularly. For example, the pile of rusting girders that is now Northshore; the derelict apt. building on Soi 15 running behind The Avenue is now condos; and similarly the old semi-circular building on Beach Rd--all of which couldn't possibly happen in Detroit, which has lost 25% of its residents in the last 10 years as opposed to the new residents coming to PTY that lead to a housing boom.

The slide show didn't quite give me a full picture of a dying Detroit, but

video certainly does. Wow, houses selling for $50, $100 and $500.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

I have lived here since 2004 and the place just gets better and better in my eyes.I thought russians were farangs too ?????

Hi, what is better? Traffic, cost of living, pollution, crime, infrastructure? Your take on this should be interesting given your lack of experience here. You were not here during the really good times. In fact, you came here at the point the place really started to decline on many fronts. IMHO, Russians qualify as farangs. By the way, as an aside, I just discovered an "ignore" function on ThaiVisa (Manage Ignored Users). It works!

[thaibeachlovers]

The Ozzies will start showing up in droves because of their strong dollar. Hopefully their input will revive the true spirit of Pats. For the last time, big business is attempting to turn Pats into their own cash cow. They want to fill the new hotels with package tourists, and they want to destroy the "bar system". Why don't the defenders of this "new and wonderful" Pattaya move to Vegas etc, where the transition has been in effect for decades?

When the big economies recover the boys are not going to be interested in all these superficial "improvements". They will be interested in spending money in the traditional manner.

Then the little keyboard warriors will be complaining about the muscle bound louts who only come here to party with the girls.

It'd be great if they did, but the Oz$ has been strong for ages and no sign of them. I think they probably go to Bali, which has been "their" place for ages.

[92302]

If you got money Pattaya is still a great place to live whether it is high or low season there are plenty of people around and the social life is as good as it gets anywhere in the world.

If, however one has to face up to the fact that one can not live in another part of the world and it is only a matter of time before he has to return because one is simply "not cut out" to live abroad and has squandered ones wealth on booze, women and wasted rent and has nothing to show for a life times work except a strawberry nose and 50% less brain cells from when he first arrived and a disgruntled attitude for absolutely everything and anything then it is he who shall be for the first to claim that the place he chose to live is falling apart and coming to an end because that is all he can do, blame everything and everyone else when the reality is it was all his own doing and Pattaya the place he chose to live is prospering and will continues to prosper with or without old strawberry nose.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

If you got money Pattaya is still a great place to live whether it is high or low season there are plenty of people around and the social life is as good as it gets anywhere in the world.

If, however one has to face up to the fact that one can not live in another part of the world and it is only a matter of time before he has to return because one is simply "not cut out" to live abroad and has squandered ones wealth on booze, women and wasted rent and has nothing to show for a life times work except a strawberry nose and 50% less brain cells from when he first arrived and a disgruntled attitude for absolutely everything and anything then it is he who shall be for the first to claim that the place he chose to live is falling apart and coming to an end because that is all he can do, blame everything and everyone else when the reality is it was all his own doing and Pattaya the place he chose to live is prospering and will continues to prosper with or without old strawberry nose.

The thing I find odd is the people who decided to come here, concluded it was a terrible place, then decided to the only way to make it work for them was to transform it into something else. I agree with an earlier poster, Hyku1147, why did they come here and why not another place that they actually do appear to like, perhaps Las Vegas? I think the answer is clear: these people are involved in real estate and are now scared beyond imagination that they made a big mistake. So, any information about the place they think counters the "Pattaya will be paved with gold dream" is treated as nonsense by red-nosed drunks who have no money and are angry, etc., etc. I think most posters are smart enough to know that is not the case You are right about one thing: when you have money virtually any place is pretty good. And you have more options in terms of staying or leaving. But most people with real money do not live in Pattaya or Jomtien. For them, it is a place to visit, if they decide to do so.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Awohalitsiktoli

[tropo]

. By the way, as an aside, I just discovered an "ignore" function on ThaiVisa (Manage Ignored Users). It works!

LOL! That's really good news.

[tropo]

. But most people with real money do not live in Pattaya or Jomtien. For them, it is a place to visit, if they decide to do so.

One would be surprised, there are quite a few people here with "real money".

Edited July 27, 2011 by tropo

[GM1955]

Give me a Russian over a tattoed UK chav any day.

As for bars closing down, that is just plain BS.

You are :sleepy: and a :jerk:. Why don't you just stay in your house and off the internet and people don't have to listen to your boring rants. Do you even know what a chav is?

This is a Chav.

[tropo]

This is a Chav.

Thanks for posting that. It made my day.

Edited July 27, 2011 by tropo

[RogueExpat]

This is a Chav.

Thanks for posting that. It made my day.

Seconded.

Seen quite a few of those around Pattaya. All bark, & no bite.

[JSixpack]

What's most amusing here is that, as a brilliant Central Economic Planner pointing out the flaws in PTY infrastructure, you're unable to practice what you preach on something as trivial as the structure of a forum post. Not too surprising, BTW.

In any case, now you've been warned by the mod. Careful you don't get yourself banned as did that other Central Economic Planner, Tejas. Just a friendly word of warning; it's fun to have you around.

OK, to answer a few points inconveniently up here on top of your <snipped> post.

I say the the Beach Rd. walkway is working adequately because it is being used just as much as or more than it ever was. Thai sidewalks are a mess, always have been, always will be; they've always attracted complaints, and Beach Rd. is still no exception. Nonetheless Thailand still got 15,936,400 tourists in 2010, and 1st quarter tourism in 2011 was up 14.47%.

Tourism Department Director-General Supol Sripan elaborated that the number of foreign tourists in the first quarter this year was recorded at 5,333,815 people, up 674,065 people or 14.47% as a result of the improving political climate compared to the same period last year.

The highest increase was seen in the number of European tourists while the figure from the Middle East fell because of the regional political unrest. Top ten foreign visitors to Thailand are Malaysians, Chinese, Japanese, Russians, South Koreans, British, Lao, Germans, Americans and Swedish respectively.

--http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255405050009

(I'll wait for your sneer at the Tourism Dept. However, Airports Council International notes the progressive increase in traffic at SV airport every year from 2008. These figures make some sense, really.)

How many of tourists do you think stayed away from Thailand and Pattaya because they didn't like

1. the sidewalks
   
2. the beach
   
3. the water
   
4. the power
   
5. the roads
   

The answer is, so VERY few that their lost economic contributions are infinitesimal compared to the 15,936,400 who DID visit because the level of infrastructure is adequate and even somewhat better than it's always been.

It has always been good enough and it's good enough now for what tourists want out of Pattaya: the crowding tells the tale.

To keep this post on topic, note that the largest percentage increase was among Europeans. So much for the disappearing farang.

I disagree that Skytrain and the expressways are first-class. They are not bad for Thailand, however, and do represent significant infrastructure development--just like Pattaya 3rd Road. Now, contrary to your view, there is no big problem with 3rd Rd. itself; the jams happen at the intersections with Pattaya Klang and Thai because those roads are now too narrow for Thai traffic management skills.

Though you "want it [PTY] to stay as a decrepit broken place full of bar beers and GoGos, and no families," most of us around here do like the new developments. For example, why should I and thousands of others (crowded TukCom) have to go to BKK to get a computer part rather than Pattaya TukCom because YOU don't like TukCom? Why should all those Thais not have jobs there so YOU can enjoy a quaint retro elitist environment? Why are you complaining about the Soi Buakaow area, when it represents an environment quite similar, in microcosm, to the old PTY? Meanwhile Beach Rd still has plenty of beer bars, as does 2nd Rd and Naklua.

The additional beer bars and go-gos, as I and others have noted, have led to a spreading out of the farangs tourists so that they may appear fewer in number than usual. I was thinking the other night that the bars and go-gos around SB are so much more convenient to Naklua and N. Pattaya (not to mention SB itself) than Walking St., and are about as interesting, I'm sure they are taking away from the old Walking St. business.

I'd also note in recent years the rise of the discount beer bar, i.e, Mickey's and others across from Soi 8 on 2nd Rd.

Central Festival and The Hilton etc add another dimension to the character of PTY and I welcome that new dimension too. You see, I don't see them as destroying PTY's character as you do.

I could go on, but basically your problem is, as you say, you don't like change. I do, except for the traffic and parking problems, which can be worked around (esp. w/ a motorbike).

In sum, PTY has more sanook and more options than ever; this low season is typical, except that non-beer bar revenues are up from the Russians, Chinese, Indians, etc.; and another good high season is coming IF there's not an economic collapse owing to USA/European debt crises.

Nevertheless, the very imperfect infrastructure, consistent with Thai standards in general, works adequately well.

Really, IMO it works REALLY BADLY. Just take a walk along Beach Rd and tell me what is working well. Can't walk safely on the broken walkway for the holes, and the pavement on the other side of the road is too narrow, too broken and too congested to walk on. I usually end up on the road dodging the cars. Some upclass resort, NOT.

<incompetently constructed post snipped>

[IMA_FARANG]

I don't normally go to Pattaya and don't really have any desire to.

But just to note: I first came to Thailand in July 1977. I mentioned going to Pattaya to a friend of mine then living in Bangkok.

His reply was, "Oh, you don't want to go there now. Pattaya is dying these days. You should have seen it in XXXX. Then it was really something, but now Pattaya is nothing like then".

Remember, that was in 1977.

It's the same today...the half remembered memories of what is was like "then" always seem better than the reality of today.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

I don't normally go to Pattaya and don't really have any desire to.

But just to note: I first came to Thailand in July 1977. I mentioned going to Pattaya to a friend of mine then living in Bangkok.

His reply was, "Oh, you don't want to go there now. Pattaya is dying these days. You should have seen it in XXXX. Then it was really something, but now Pattaya is nothing like then".

Remember, that was in 1977.

It's the same today...the half remembered memories of what is was like "then" always seem better than the reality of today.

0

Is it possible for something to change in a way that is worse than before the change? It is odd that some posters here appear to reject that notion. I know many farangs and ALL OF THEM think Pattaya-Jomtien was better in the past. That does not mean EVERYTHING was better. It means that their assessment is that, overall, things were better in the past. In fact, most say "much better." I agree. But to see that you have to be a certain age with experience in the area, in order to understand the actual changes. And you must not be biased by real estate concerns. My guess is that at least 75% of current expats believe it was better in the past. Those that do not are actually in the minority. Part of this is age related. If you are in your 20s and 30s, you are clueless to what has happened and might believe things are much better (and no doubt have very little experience living here). If you are in your 50s and up (with 10-20 or more years of experience here) you most likely agree things were better in the past. If you are in your 40s you might have a mixed view. Newbies have no idea what it was actually like in the past. And, no, contrary to what you said, the past is not always better than the present. Personally, I do not think I would have really liked Pattaya in 1977 as there was not enough development. In some situations there is not enough development. In others there is way too much development. In between these two extremes you find the best of both worlds. That has gone and that is what many expats are upset about.

[doggie888888]

Is it possible for something to change in a way that is worse than before the change? It is odd that some posters here appear to reject that notion. I know many farangs and ALL OF THEM think Pattaya-Jomtien was better in the past. That does not mean EVERYTHING was better. It means that their assessment is that, overall, things were better in the past. In fact, most say "much better." I agree. But to see that you have to be a certain age with experience in the area, in order to understand the actual changes. And you must not be biased by real estate concerns. My guess is that at least 75% of current expats believe it was better in the past. Those that do not are actually in the minority. Part of this is age related. If you are in your 20s and 30s, you are clueless to what has happened and might believe things are much better (and no doubt have very little experience living here). If you are in your 50s and up (with 10-20 or more years of experience here) you most likely agree things were better in the past. If you are in your 40s you might have a mixed view. Newbies have no idea what it was actually like in the past. And, no, contrary to what you said, the past is not always better than the present. Personally, I do not think I would have really liked Pattaya in 1977 as there was not enough development. In some situations there is not enough development. In others there is way too much development. In between these two extremes you find the best of both worlds. That has gone and that is what many expats are upset about.

I am in my 40s and indeed, I do have mixed views about Pattaya! And I recently started to avoid foreigners in their 60s up, due to constant negativity and whining. So you might be onto something there about one's views being age related.