Political Debate

[Guest IT Manager]

Do you think Thaivisa is an appropriate forum for discussion about political issues and personalities.

If yes, what limits are needed, if no, wht would you add to the TOS to make sure it stays as it essentially is, a forum for and about Thailand

[Georgie-Porgie]

I hope that the administrators can come to some sort of a conclusion about how to handle the Bush/American bashing posts. It is not that I am not willing to argue with these guys; I can enjoyably argue with them for days, as long as the forum users are intelligent people using common sense and logic, but unfortunately, half-wits have opinions too!

Every one of these threads turns into a children's sandbox; almost everyone just ends up flinging insults at each other, with no way to stop it, until the post finally gets locked.

The truth is that I have very little interest in politics, and am not a great fan of George Bush, however I can't sit back and see such stupidity as the claims made on this board, allowed to pass as any kind of truth.

What can be done to stop these wastes of everyone's time?

[Axel]

Political issues are part of our lifes and for sure everybody should be able to express an opinion. Albeit I would appreciate if the one or other would lean back and THINK, before posting a response and maybe accept that othr people might have differing opinion.

And stop this nonsense-postings about bashing.

If somebody says something negative about xxxxxx should I blame him for ,,,,,,,,- bashing and -hating? Can I dare to talk about things that might be improved in the immigration rules or is this bashing of .........?

You may fill in the dots with Thailand, USA, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Australia or what ever you want. The xxxxx replace with Bush, Blair, Chirac, Schroder, Berlusconi or (help me, what's his name)

I have no voting rights in any country, not even in Thailand. I might not be interested in politicians at all, unless they touch my life. Perhaps no need, to discuss in here, let's just post how lovely and beautiful everything is, how nicely organized the rules and laws and how happy we are without needing any improvements.

[the gentleman]

I think if it is actual discussion, why not, but it all seems to end up being slanging matches - give it its own thread and let them go for it as I tried to do yesterday. I understand you stopping that thread IT as it Will turn into a flaming war, but at least it is one thread and maybe people will get bored with it all and get back to normal discussion/crap, instead of threads being highjacked with the same stuff.

[the gentleman]

You may fill in the dots with Thailand, USA, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Australia or what ever you want. The xxxxx replace with Bush, Blair, Chirac, Schroder, Berlusconi or (help me, what's his name)

Howard

[Axel]

You may fill in the dots with Thailand, USA, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Australia or what ever you want. The xxxxx replace with Bush, Blair, Chirac, Schroder, Berlusconi or (help me, what's his name)

Howard

Thanks, 12 minutes incl. typing and posting.

Sorry, just testing.

Now if somebody fills in the xxxx and dots with non-matching replies, I think we really can have fun.

[Thaiquila]

People who say they are not political might consider that world politics effects their lives whether they like it or not. I think political debate is OK on the board if it is kept within relevant strings, and there is at least some relation to Thailand. How would that be determined? For example, are the upcoming US elections relevant, because the US is Thailand's leading trading partner?

In an ideal world personal nastiness would be kept to a minimum. But notice in real world politics, nastiness is everywhere.

If political debate is allowed on the board, people not interested do not have to read it. Another result is that it might soon become very predictable and boring (kind of like when a country legalizes pornography).

[Guest IT Manager]

So what you guys are saying generally, is that if a forum area were put together where flame wars occur, thats fine so long as admins don't have to field complaints from posters about other posters?

[Membrane]

Looking at the problem from different angles....

1) Unless I am misinformed, ThaiVisa.com is a commercial entity. Commercial entities usually derive their revenue from advertisers and advertisers usually don't want to risk alienate potential viewers (which could be translated into customers). With something as potentially volatile as politics (or religion or abortion, for example), this website could run the risk of alienating people who (as ###### pointed out) may just want to be here to gather information for an upcoming vacation to Thailand. Looking at this issue from that the point of view of a potential advertiser, I would not want to spend my advertising money on a board that could potentially piss off and drive away my customers. So no, I say it shouldn't be allowed.

2) IF this website was all about politics, then it would make sense to encourage discussions about politics. But this website is not about politics, it's all about Thailand, and vacationing there, and moving there, and how to deal with visas, etc. There may be some discussions from time to time about the Thai government, but I think most of the time, politics has little to do with this website. And the theme of this website certainly is not about Bush-bashing, America-bashing, west-bashing, etc. So, looking at the issue from the point of view of what is this website's purpose and theme, it's not about politics. So no, discussions of world politics do not fit here.

3) If political discussions were allowed, it's way too easy for them to get over-heated and then things disintegrate into a "sh1t-fight". And who is going to ride herd on that, to make sure it doesn't happen? The admins? I don't think they have the time, or the inclination. And it certainly won't be done by the people here. Which admin is going to play God and decide who can say what? What if my opinion differs from the admins? If the admin gets to play censor, who will censor the censor?

4) And even if we draw the line at "Well, we can discuss politics, but we won't allow personal attacks on another member here on the forum"? Well, sorry--but there's been plenty of times that I was not personally attacked--but in a way I still was, because I don't like reading that my country (the U.S.) "deserves another 9-11 attack" or that my president "ought to be shot" or that my country is "a shit hole" or that all Americans are "ignorant red-necks". These ignorant, inflammatory and ridiculous remarks still offend, even though they are not directed at any one person as an individual. And again, if none of the admins want to read every post, if they don't want to find themselves constantly in the middle of a "he said this about me" kind of whining dispute, then it's easier just to say no, these kinds of political conversations are not allowed here... It would be great if everyone here would mind their manners and act like civilized, mature adults. It would really be great if we could actually get something accomplished, figure something out, find a way to help the world--but that's not going to happen here. So on this point again, I'd say it's best to just shut down all the political discussions. Just put it in the TOS and let the forum go back to what it once was, a place to discuss Thailand, visas, etc.

5) And by the way, even a "funny picture" or a cartoon still can offend and can open the door to further arguing, etc. Why can't certain people here just let this stuff die off? Why is it this has to keep coming up? I do not like my country being bad-mouthed at every turn and yes, it's offensive to me. Just shutting it all down would allow things to go back to normal. Not allowing discussions of world politics would keep the forums focused on what they should be: (again)--Thailand.

In a perfect world, we could all act civilized and discuss things as adults, without mud slinging, without name calling, without stooping to childish behavior. But that's not the case.

So.. because it's too easy to offend, because it's impossible for any admin to personally watch and censor every discussion, because it could turn away potential advertising dollars, because it's not "on topic" for this website, I say let's just stop all political discussions. Allow this forum to return to a politcially-neutral place where we can discuss Thailand and how it fits into our lives.

There are plenty of other boards, other forums, other chat rooms where discussing world politics is more appropriate.

[Membrane]

...one more thought:

Either stop it all (like I just said in my previous post)

OR

put it in it's own area, clearly labeled and then NO admin can censor anything--no restrictions on vulgar or obscene language, no restrictions on personal attacks (no matter how vicious), no restrictions on anything...

But it should be restricted to it's own area, away from all the other General discussions.

Quarantined, and with a "warning label"...

[Guest IT Manager]

Good points Membrane.

The issue I would have is the likelihood of the picture that you pm'd me about was that it probably came ready labelled from an American media outlet. I may be wrong as no credit was given, but it has the hallmarks of a leftist newspaper, website or something, don't you think?

Surely if the americans can swing punches like that, others can too?

Views please?

[Thaiquila]

My reaction to membrane's post:

Yes, I agree this is a commercial sponsored board, so the board itself is not a democracy, so whatever decision is made by the admins is reasonable, and if you don't like it, surf on over to another site.

There should be a distinction between Thai issues and world politics. For example, it would be kind of silly to not allow relevant reactions to some of the politically oriented postings in the Thai News Clippings section. So if there is a ban, it might be a ban on non-Thai politics, and still allow political reactions to the Thai news clippings. If not, why even post the Thai news clippinngs? (Please don't stop those.)

[Guest IT Manager]

Good point. Doc and I are negotiating the political aspects at the moment... Breaking news, perhaps breaking wind... stand by

[Membrane]

IT M:

I don't know if the cartoon came from an American media outlet or not, and I don't think it matters.

I think the real question is: Is ThaiVisa.com the appropricate place for these discussions? And I don't really think it is, for all the reasons I gave: it's off-topic from the theme of this website, it could drive web traffic away, it offends part of your base of readers, it can't be properly managed by the Admins, etc.

By the way, the cartoon came from http://politicalhumor.about.com/, which already has forums set up to discuss politics. It also has more politcal cartoons, politcal chat rooms, politcal articles--everything anyone would want--all about politics (clearly, that's the theme of the website).

Of course, George can do what he wants, but I think everyone would be happier to keep ThaiVisa.com a politically-neutral place to learn about Thailand and to discuss Thailand.

Membrane

[Membrane]

My reaction to membrane's post:

Yes, I agree this is a commercial sponsored board, so the board itself is not a democracy, so whatever decision is made by the admins is reasonable, and if you don't like it, surf on over to another site.

There should be a distinction between Thai issues and world politics. For example, it would be kind of silly to not allow relevant reactions to some of the politically oriented postings in the Thai News Clippings section. So if there is a ban, it might be a ban on non-Thai politics, and still allow political reactions to the Thai news clippings. If not, why even post the Thai news clippinngs? (Please don't stop those.)

My reaction to Thaiquila's post:

Yes of course, the owner and admins can do what they see fit. And the board is not a democracy. But ThaiVisa.com is a professionally-produced web site that has a focused theme. And that theme does not appear to be Bush-bashing, America-bashing, discussions about world politics, etc. (Sorry to keep harping on the Bush and America-bashing, but I've seen so much of it here, I'm sick of it).

But please DO keep the Thai news clippings! I enjoy those immensely and they are on topic. And I agree with Thaiqila, we should be able to discuss Thai politics (with respect of course to the King, etc.). Again, good stuff, and on topic.

It's late now for me.. I gotta go to bed! See you all tomorrow.

[Axel]

Perhaps we stick to questions concerning Thailand and it's beauty (no negative comment allowed) and to plain questions concerning visa, WP and DL. Believe than the whole issue is off.

Under no circumstances, any comment to Thaksin, his politics and rulings should be accepted. One might use the same arguments, 'you are bashing and hating Thaksin so you are against Thailand'. And any negative comment against visa-policy, Elite-card etc. is to be avoided as this again will hurt feelings for people who love Thailand. I don't like reading that my adopted country (Thailand) might be seen in not so rose colours by somebody else.

Let's discuss about the beauty of Thailands temples and landscape but avoid any reference to the nightlife. Mr. T. is against, so any other opinion will hurt him and me.

If Thailand is sending troops or support to overseas, no comments, as this would leed again to bashing of Thailand as some people might not want her to support the US. (Wasn't this were the last threat started?)

Believe, I am one who always tries to put oil on the waves if they are going too high. But I as well believe we are all adults who should be able to control their tempers and argue to find a solution.

In the jokes-section for ex. only jokes around Thailand to be allowed and nothing negative. For this reason I moved my latest joke to Sukhumvit road but admit, still too negative against the Thai-police. Hope, nobody was offended by my police- read Thailand - bashing.

Perhaps GENERAL TOPICS can be closed. We don't need it if everybody stickt to Visas.

Am I serious with above? No! But I am sick of reading always these bashing-comments when somebody dare to make a not so positive remark. And it seems to be only one guy that put the fire up. None of the others I named earlier, (Yes, including Howard)

The majority voted "Yes, it should be allowed, but no personality flaming about another posters views being allowed."

I believe it is too early to show a trend with 12 voters, only.

However, I do vote in favour of this.

[Pink Mist]

you are still arguing with that cop axel

[plachon]

My two nickels worth. If the board axes any political comment or debate, IMHO it will become a poorer place for it. It will be like the order for Thai people to smile for foreigners pre-APEC (oohps, i've done it again!) or some kind of teletubbies website, censored for the benefit of politically correct, lobotomised, over-fed kids. C'mon guys, politics is life and can't be avoided, whether in Thailand, US, Europe wherever. Just by not talking about it, doesn't make it go away, in fact, quite the opposite, it'll fester and cause extremism of the type we witness from both sides in recent times (trying v. hard not to name names at this point). So, please, keep this site a lively place where consenting adults can debate with each other on generally Thai-related themes. You never know, more people may visit it as a result of this, thereby keeping those all-important corporate sponsors happy.

[Butterfly]

I am not suprised that the "pro-Bush" of the board want the political debate shutdown. After all, they are only following what their beloved leader is doing at home with the opposition. They are very logic in that sense. See, no debate, no opposition, no problem. This is the typical "coward" attitude of people who can't debate properly because they know they have little arguments.

It's plain "dishonesty" and "hypocrisy". Ok to crirtique all the other countries (Thailand, Saudi Arabia, France, Germany etc...) but don't you dare touch the "sacred" United States Of America. We are blessed by God and we have all the power so don't you dare touch her.

Create a special forum for it if you want to protect the "innocent", and moderate it by banning "personal" bashing or attack like it was done yesterday. For the record I am the one who contacted the admin in that other thread yesterday when "someone" (we know who) started baiting people with "names" and stupid one-liners.

And Membrane etc... stop ass kissing the admins, it shows

[TizMe]

If its kept within the Farang Pub then the rules should be the same as you would expect to find in a real Pub.

IE. Lots of alcohol fuelled debates (read opinionated, one sided, uninformed and uncompromising), and slagging off at each other.

But when the going gets too tough then the bouncers (ie I.T, Dr P, George, and even Boo) should take the necessary action required to return the peace.

Whether this means early closing time for the thread or banishment for the patron/s is up to the bouncers.

[bangkokblue]

Not surprisingly what turns into a bashing tread attracts majority viewing as in a street fight gathering. I'm of the opinion that a simple warning sign would suffice that the raising of fists will be frowned upon in true thai tradition and too keep democracy alive. No change required.

[Georgie-Porgie]

I find it absolutely amazing that Butterfly is contacting the admins, complaining about other people calling him names! Name calling is all this guy can contribute to a discussion of any type. in fact, without, good old Butterfly, I'm not sure that this whole thread would even be necessary.

Does anyone think that this guy has ever come up with anything positive to add to one of these debates?

All I can say is, if the administration decides that America bashing is going to be allowed here, just allow me to keep on acting as childish as good old Butterfly when dealing with him; Pig-headed, childish behavior is the only thing that he understands!

[Axel]

you are still arguing with that cop axel

No Bronco, but while translating the thing a saw a remark 'Closed because not related to Thailand' and decided to

plagerising joke putting

into Thailand.

No joke, however, I have one cop in my mind, never accepting a bribe after 20th of the month. He acceped, however once, to keep my namecard since I told him that I have no DL.

[Khun ?]

I will be to busy catching up on my writing skills. Maybe I should not of worked 2 jobs during high school and played a bit of sports also. Then again maybe I should not of spent time in the last 2 gulf wars either. I guess being considered as a sissy

in school should not of altered my attempts to avoid english classes. After all who would of thought we needed the skills on a Thai Chat board. Maybe better to start a non proficient english writing section or maybe even better yet require an essay

to be submitted, in of course, the queens rattlings language. Might even want everyone to talk through their nose when on the board or in Thailand. Even this being said I do admire well written post. Anyways what ever puts bread on your table I hope you are good at it and get plenty of it, I do. Yes Argue respectfully but no biting.

[Nat]

Thought I'd add a female perspective personally enjoy reading the political discussions and debates, when they are presented in an intelligent and logical manner (which isn't always the case ) - do not think that any personal insults are acceptable (along with all the scratching and hair pulling ). Not sure of the consequences of having a section where one has free rein - no rules and no boundaries usually results in anarchy

[sbk]

OK, here is another female perspective.

I see membrane's point. This is a commercial site dedicated to the topic of Thailand. Politics as they relate to Thailand is of far more interest to me personally on this website than some other member's opinion of Bush, Blair, Chirac etc. I don't particularly care one way or the other about the Bush-bashing (do a bit of it myself sometimes!). I just don't know that this is the appropriate place for it.

However, far too often (in many different subjects, not just the political ones), some members feel the only way to make a contribution to the topic is by making some inane, stupid, insulting remark. I wouldn't object to a political forum as long as it were moderated by someone with (preferably) a fairly heavy hand. No name-calling, no insults, no baiting. Just intelligent debate. Ahh, but wouldn't that be nice if it applied to all threads in all topics?

[mrvietnam2001]

I think it's funny that there are those who equate democracy with freedom.

Mr Vietnam

[Membrane]

Maybe what I posted last night was misunderstood.

What I was saying was no, I don't think discussing politics necessarily belongs on this board. But if it is here, then it should be completely unrestricted and uncensored. And if that's the case, then it should be limited to it's own section, so if someone wants to venture over and watch the "sh1t fight", then they can. If not, then they won't see blood and guts sprinkled in with much lighter topics like where to buy grass seed, where the IMAX theater is and how to properly use a Thai toilet.

So again, just in case someone views me as "a cop" or accuses me of trying to censor the group or something. All I'm saying is IF it's here, then quarantine it--then let 'er rip! If the discussion erupts into "anarchy", then so be it. No holds barred. No restrictions. No censorship. If someone wants to bash Bush, then go for it. If someone wants to bash someone else on a personal level, oh well...I can live with that--as long as it's somewhere else away from the general population. If someone even wants to go to the lengths of exposing problems with Islam or discrediting the Quoran, then there should be that much freedom to do so--it should not THEN be arbitrarily decided that--hey NOW you've gone too far. In fact, why stop there? If someone feels a need to post some other "unacceptable" thread, like hatred of Asians or racism against blacks or whites or whatever, then... at least there's a place to do it, without the Admins having to babysit. If someone wants to resort to mindless name-calling, then OK.. because all of this is going to happen anyway UNLESS THE ADMINS WANT TO TAKE COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE BOARD.

PLEASE NOTE: My point is: I don't want any of this and I do not condone any of the above! But who is going to be the one who judges for all of us, who is allowed to "go overboard" and who is not? It's not fair for one or two people to consistently and relentlessly go overboard and for an admin to allow that, then for an admin to clamp down on someone else, for going overboard. If it's going to happen anyway, at least restrict all the shit to one place on this forum, so it doesn't stink up the rest of the board.

AGAIN: I do NOT condone insulting or hate-filled or racist remarks. I'm simply exaggerating, to prove my point.

[Membrane]

NOTE, PLEASE: This thread is supposed to be a discussion about how to solve a problem here on the board. Up to now, I haven't mentioned any names on this thread. It's only when I am singled out and addressed personally (by Butterfly) that I am responding, which I believe I have a right too....

I am not suprised that the "pro-Bush" of the board want the political debate shutdown. After all, they are only following what their beloved leader is doing at home with the opposition. They are very logic in that sense. See, no debate, no opposition, no problem. This is the typical "coward" attitude of people who can't debate properly because they know they have little arguments.

The above post shows how things can start to get out of hand. What we're trying to do here is discuss how we can resolve a problem on the board. This guy always has to swerve the topic back to his own constant, relentless drum-beating against Bush and his followers, sprinkling in taunts like "coward". He completely ignores the fact he's doing nothing to help solve the problem that's on the board. I wonder why? Is it because he wants to keep things the way they are, so he can continue spewing his progranda?

It's plain "dishonesty" and "hypocrisy". Ok to crirtique all the other countries (Thailand, Saudi Arabia, France, Germany etc...) but don't you dare touch the "sacred" United States Of America. We are blessed by God and we have all the power so don't you dare touch her.

Wrong again. I have no problem with anyone critiquing the U.S., as long as it's done with some intelligence and without name-calling and without ignoring logic. The problem is when a hand full of people constantly and relentlessly push their progranda and try to stir up hatred and anger. Like Butterfly's posts. It's very very rare that he says anything negative about any other country--it's 99.999% of the time about how he hates America, and that it "deserves another 9-11 attack" or that Bush "ought to be shot" or that the USA is "a shit hole" or that all Americans are "ignorant red-necks". --And all this while remaining a coward, not specifying what country he's from--(that way no one can attack him or his government). True, terrorist-style: Blast away, while hiding like a coward, quickly dodging any come backs. (Again, anyone who has read his postings can see this for themselves).

Create a special forum for it if you want to protect the "innocent", and moderate it by banning "personal" bashing or attack like it was done yesterday. For the record I am the one who contacted the admin in that other thread yesterday when "someone" (we know who) started baiting people with "names" and stupid one-liners.

Well... heh heh... that's pretty funny! Butterfly, you consistently resort to name calling, stupid one-liners and baiting, calling anyone who doesn't agree with you "stupid", or a "NeoCon", a "coward", "Right Wing Facist", a "Bush ass kissers", a "Redneck", or a "Neo-nazi"... (All those come from Butterfly's previous posts--anyone who wants to read them, can). So why are you now whining to the Admins? Someone simply gives you some of the same crap you dish out and you can't take it?

And Membrane etc... stop ass kissing the admins, it shows 

Butterfly, this whole thread probably wouldn't even be here if it weren't because of you.

...Now, should I, as an American, put up with all this, just because there's a lot of anti-American sentiment in the world? I say no, I should not. I personally had no hand in hurting anyone. Why should I silently sit by and allow this individual to constantly harass and try to spread hatred and create even more of a bias towards me and my country?

[Membrane]

OK, jai yen yen...

Just for the record, I was a "lurker" here at ThaiVisa at one point. By that I mean for a long time, I simply remained quiet, never posted anything, just read and tried to gather as much info as possible about Thailand and how to get a visa, etc. It wasn't until reading some very bizarre and vicious postings that I got involved and started posting.

But it hasn't been all bad. I have had some interesting politically-oriented conversations with some of the people here. A while back, Kwiz posted some direct questions and I took the time to answer and we had some pretty interesting back-and-forth. And it was done with mutual respect for each other. In fact, I kind of felt like I liked the guy, simply because of his straight-forward honesty in how he approaced the discussion (even though we didn't agree, we could still talk to each other about our different views).

I'd like to be able to continue these types of discussions, as they give me insight into how people from other parts of the world see things, how they view my country, etc. The few talks I had with Kwiz were interesting and a good use of this board. What I find disgusting--what I strongly object to--is the nasty, hate-filled remarks from ...others.