What's Lanna Culture In Chiang Rai?

[Limbo]

It is difficult to point out.

In many brochures of tourist organisations the 'Lanna'-culture is mentioned as specific for Chiang Rai. There is no brochure or poster without a 'galae' topped house on it (the accentuation of the outer crossbeams of a roof).

In parades and at the occasion of cultural happenings in for instance the Rai Mae Fah Luang 'Lanna' style clothes are worn.

So 'Lanna'-culture consists of patterns in woven textiles and the eternal 'galae' ?

But also Scottish kilts have different patterns, also Akha and Yao broderies have, and crossbeams everywhere in the world have been crossing each other for centuries. And in almost as much as places they were shaped in a specific form or decorated in a specific way.

In architecture you won't find see the 'Lanna'-style reflected, unless you would call a concrete matchbox with a 'galae' on top typical 'Lanna'. It is typical Chiang Rai, yes, but it is just as much 'Lanna' as a 'kao pat' with an olive and parmesan cheese on top could be called 'Italian'.

For us, foreigners, Chiang Rai is first of all Thai.

Maybe by comparing the life-style in towns in different parts of Thailand with Chiang Rai we might find out what is specific for Chiang Rai.

But can we call that 'Lanna'?

The 'Lanna' Kingdoms stretched from Vietnam, Southern China, Laos, Burma to Nan, Payao and Chiang Mai.

Do we have to study the 'Lanna'-culture by visiting these areas and look for things we recognize from Chiang Rai? Distill a common nominator which would define 'Lanna'?

Is the multiple use of the term 'Lanna' a symptom of an underlying sentiment?

And which?

Who ?

Limbo

[homealone]

It is difficult to point out.

In many brochures of tourist organisations the 'Lanna'-culture is mentioned as specific for Chiang Rai. There is no brochure or poster without a 'galae' topped house on it (the accentuation of the outer crossbeams of a roof).

In parades and at the occasion of cultural happenings in for instance the Rai Mae Fah Luang 'Lanna' style clothes are worn.

So 'Lanna'-culture consists of patterns in woven textiles and the eternal 'galae' ?

But also Scottish kilts have different patterns, also Akha and Yao broderies have, and crossbeams everywhere in the world have been crossing each other for centuries. And in almost as much as places they were shaped in a specific form or decorated in a specific way.

In architecture you won't find see the 'Lanna'-style reflected, unless you would call a concrete matchbox with a 'galae' on top typical 'Lanna'. It is typical Chiang Rai, yes, but it is just as much 'Lanna' as a 'kao pat' with an olive and parmesan cheese on top could be called 'Italian'.

For us, foreigners, Chiang Rai is first of all Thai.

Maybe by comparing the life-style in towns in different parts of Thailand with Chiang Rai we might find out what is specific for Chiang Rai.

But can we call that 'Lanna'?

The 'Lanna' Kingdoms stretched from Vietnam, Southern China, Laos, Burma to Nan, Payao and Chiang Mai.

Do we have to study the 'Lanna'-culture by visiting these areas and look for things we recognize from Chiang Rai? Distill a common nominator which would define 'Lanna'?

Is the multiple use of the term 'Lanna' a symptom of an underlying sentiment?

And which?

Who    ?

Limbo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am unclear what our esteemmed moderator wants for feedback on this topic. Lanna Kingdom, from which Lanna culture, architecture, etc. has its origin, was a huge Kingdom that ruled Northern Thailand, Southern parts of China, Burma and Laos but not Vietnam. Lanna means - land of a million rice fields - and its influence in Thailand can be found throughout the provinces of Chiang Rai and Chiang Mai as well as Burma.

The only "underlying sentiment" I can think of is for tourism. Lanna this or that might sell alot of bus tickets and fill innumerable pages of guide books but what other sentiment other than making money from tourists would there be???

The only "common denominator" would be King Meng Rai, the counqueror and founder of the original Lanna Kingdom.

Nice talking to you again Limbo.

homealone at last

[OxfordWill]

Not sure if it covers everything you want to know but this might be useful

http://www.sticky-rice.com/northern_thaila..._mai_lanna.html

[Joel Barlow]

Laos as part of Lanna? News to me. Lan Chang or Lan Xang, Luang Prabang, once had a king who was also briefly king of Lanna at ChiangMai, but it was separate countries, if that is the appropriate term (which I think it isn't - principalities might be better...)

Even within Lanna there were different kings at different places - in Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, Maung Mai, Chiang Tung (Keng Tung)... and Nan and Phayao were there own places with their own royalty.

But all that ended 450 years ago, when the Burmese took over, and after the Burmese were forced out, there was hardly anybody left!

However, locals are proud to be Khon Muang, and do see distinctions between themselves and Central Thais, Isan etc. And rightly so. Temples, Buddhas, language, clothing, irrigation - many things have local distinction. A favorite of mine is Khao Soi. Try finding that in Isan!

[skylar]

The only "underlying sentiment" I can think of is for tourism.  Lanna this or that might sell alot of bus tickets and fill innumerable pages of guide books but what other sentiment other than making money from tourists would there be??? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lanna also sells a shitload of albums for a certain Miss Lanna Commins...

[Limbo]

  A favorite of mine is Khao Soi.  Try finding that in Isan!

Hahaha, that's the one I meant in the topic title by 'kweetiou sin la pin' (noodle soup 'artist').

If you know a better one, tell me: In the Yedyod Road, opposite the staff entrance of the Wangcome Hotel.

The noodle shop was set up by the father of Chalermchai Kositpipat, the creator of the White Temple in Rong Khun and now of the new clocktower. He passed away two years ago.

The place is decorated with prints of Chalermchai's work.

That might be the reason that the Thai residents of Chiang Rai call this excellent soup 'kweetiou sin la pin'.

But I never heard anybody refer to it as 'Lanna' soup.

Delicious it is (and no bones!).

Limbo.

[Mymechew]

  A favorite of mine is Khao Soi.  Try finding that in Isan!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hahaha, that's the one I meant in the topic title by 'kweetiou sin la pin' (noodle soup 'artist').

If you know a better one, tell me: In the Yedyod Road, opposite the staff entrance of the Wangcome Hotel.

The noodle shop was set up by the father of Chalermchai Kositpipat, the creator of the White Temple in Rong Khun and now of the new clocktower. He passed away two years ago.

The place is decorated with prints of Chalermchai's work.

That might be the reason that the Thai residents of Chiang Rai call this excellent soup 'kweetiou sin la pin'.

But I never heard anybody refer to it as 'Lanna' soup.

Delicious it is (and no bones!).

Limbo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This thread is about Lanna Culture, right? Oh wait, now its about noodle soup or the clock tower or the White Temple or an artist's dead father or . . . ?????

Mymechew

[tayto]

  A favorite of mine is Khao Soi.  Try finding that in Isan!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hahaha, that's the one I meant in the topic title by 'kweetiou sin la pin' (noodle soup 'artist').

If you know a better one, tell me: In the Yedyod Road, opposite the staff entrance of the Wangcome Hotel.

The noodle shop was set up by the father of Chalermchai Kositpipat, the creator of the White Temple in Rong Khun and now of the new clocktower. He passed away two years ago.

The place is decorated with prints of Chalermchai's work.

That might be the reason that the Thai residents of Chiang Rai call this excellent soup 'kweetiou sin la pin'.

But I never heard anybody refer to it as 'Lanna' soup.

Delicious it is (and no bones!).

Limbo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This thread is about Lanna Culture, right? Oh wait, now its about noodle soup or the clock tower or the White Temple or an artist's dead father or . . . ?????

Mymechew

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Life is never dull in Chiang rai, blink and you've missed it.

[Limbo]

Laos as part of Lanna?  News to me.  Lan Chang or Lan Xang, Luang Prabang, once had a king who was also briefly king of Lanna at ChiangMai, but it was separate countries, if that is the appropriate term (which I think it isn't - principalities might be better...)

Even within Lanna there were different kings at different places - in Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, Maung Mai, Chiang Tung (Keng Tung)...  and Nan and Phayao were there own places with their own royalty.

Dear Joel,

What I understand is that the Kingdom of Nan strechted into the Southern part of China (Sibsongpanna?), covering a greater part of present Laos.

And that the French after the Pak Nam 'Incident' occupied the Northern part, the left side of the Mekong River (1893).

The King was staying in His palace in Nan untill he passed away, more than eighty years old.

The former palace is now a National Museum.

I haven't been to Nan for fifthteen years at least. You want to come with me?

Limbo.

[Joel Barlow]

Hi John

Sorry if the history of Lanna on www.chiangraiprovince.com is a boring read. I've been working on improvements, but don't know how to upload it. Nor have I money for going to Nan, as I support a family and don't care much for work.

Where might you have heard of "the Kingdom of Nan strechted into the Southern part of China (Sibsongpanna?), covering a greater part of present Laos"? Preposterous. Nan was Nan. Never more. Really. And Sipsongpanna part of China, ever after the Mongols took it, well before 1300. Mangrai retained influence there, occasionally sending troops or even going himself, but maintained no admisistrative control. It has not been united with any part of Thailand since.

The Pak Nam 'Incident' has nothing to do with Lanna, but rather with the end of principalities, such as Germany and Italy had before unification, and European greed, dishonosty, hypocracy, fat-headedness and pomposity.

I spent time in Nan and Utaradit about 8 years ago. Very, very quite. Very, very lovely, polite, friendly people. I'd love to take my lady, but unfortunately she has no legal right to go. Up at the northeastern corner of Nan one can find lots of people of no legal standing. They "wai" cars going by...

[Limbo]

The hereditary princes of the 4 northern semi-independent vassals of Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Lampang, Nan and Lamphun were invested by the Siamese king and were required to swear allegiance to him (and to pay the traditional triennial tribute of trees made of gold and silver).

The most important principalities at this time (greatest part of the nineteenth century) were Nan and Chiang Mai.

The prince of Nan nominally controlled the largest territory of all the Muang Princes; his domain was acknowledged by the king of Siam as extending to the border of China and the edge of Luang Prabang.

Bureaucratic reorganization left the princes in 1892 with their private incomes and highsounding but ineffectual titles granted by the king of Siam.

After the Pak Nam incident (of 1893, generally considered a pretext created by France to annex Siam by declaring it a French protectorate) the French exacted from Siam more than half the territory under the jurisdiction of the prince of Nan.

This territory became part of the Union of French Indochina.

"Nan was Nan. Never more. Really", you wrote.

I think our misunderstanding illustrates the unclear definition of the concept 'Lanna'. We are looking at different ages.

But we agree about the soup!

"... and European greed, dishonosty, hypocracy, fat-headedness and pomposity", you wrote as well.

Make that French greed, dishonesty, hypocracy, fat-headedness and poposity, and we are friends again

Europe as an entity is not that old yet.

Limbo.

(source: Muang Metaphysics by Richard B. Davis)

[Limbo]

Dear Joel,

I promise that I will plough myself through the history of Lanna as laid down at www.chiangraiprovince.com.

Thanks for the link!

Limbo.

[homealone]

Laos as part of Lanna?  News to me.  Lan Chang or Lan Xang, Luang Prabang, once had a king who was also briefly king of Lanna at ChiangMai, but it was separate countries, if that is the appropriate term (which I think it isn't - principalities might be better...)

Even within Lanna there were different kings at different places - in Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, Maung Mai, Chiang Tung (Keng Tung)...  and Nan and Phayao were there own places with their own royalty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Joel,

What I understand is that the Kingdom of Nan strechted into the Southern part of China (Sibsongpanna?), covering a greater part of present Laos.

And that the French after the Pak Nam 'Incident' occupied the Northern part, the left side of the Mekong River (1893).

The King was staying in His palace in Nan untill he passed away, more than eighty years old.

The former palace is now a National Museum.

I haven't been to Nan for fifthteen years at least. You want to come with me?

Limbo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to agree with Limbo – During the isolationist Ming Dynasty the Lanna Kingdom’s influence (and sometimes rule) included northern Burma, Laos, Yunnan and northern Vietnam. The Kingdom’s capital was Chiang Mai or, at times, Chiang Rai.

Homealone

[chownah]

Laos as part of Lanna?  News to me.  Lan Chang or Lan Xang, Luang Prabang, once had a king who was also briefly king of Lanna at ChiangMai, but it was separate countries, if that is the appropriate term (which I think it isn't - principalities might be better...)

Even within Lanna there were different kings at different places - in Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, Maung Mai, Chiang Tung (Keng Tung)...  and Nan and Phayao were there own places with their own royalty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Joel,

What I understand is that the Kingdom of Nan strechted into the Southern part of China (Sibsongpanna?), covering a greater part of present Laos.

And that the French after the Pak Nam 'Incident' occupied the Northern part, the left side of the Mekong River (1893).

The King was staying in His palace in Nan untill he passed away, more than eighty years old.

The former palace is now a National Museum.

I haven't been to Nan for fifthteen years at least. You want to come with me?

Limbo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to agree with Limbo – During the isolationist Ming Dynasty the Lanna Kingdom’s influence (and sometimes rule) included northern Burma, Laos, Yunnan and northern Vietnam. The Kingdom’s capital was Chiang Mai or, at times, Chiang Rai.

Homealone

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm surprised that the Lanna Kingdom had any influence in northern Vietnam unless by this they mean just barely into Vietnam up in the highlands. I read a history of Vietnam many years ago but don't remember any mention of Lanna...maybe I've just forgotten. I do seem to remember that way back then the Vietnamese tended to stay in the lowlands where rice could be irrigated since that was the activity around which their culture developed....so maybe at that time the Vietnamese just considered that whoever was up in the hills were just mountain people and of no consequence. Don't know.

[Limbo]

I'm surprised that the Lanna Kingdom had any influence in northern Vietnam unless by this they mean just barely into Vietnam up in the highlands. I read a history of Vietnam many years ago but don't remember any mention of Lanna...maybe I've just forgotten. I do seem to remember that way back then the Vietnamese tended to stay in the lowlands where rice could be irrigated since that was the activity around which their culture developed....so maybe at that time the Vietnamese just considered that whoever was up in the hills were just mountain people and of no consequence. Don't know.

One of the ethnic minorities of Vietnam is called 'Tai Dam' (Black Tai).

If I recall things right, they are supposed to live in the area around Dien Bien Phu (spelling?). Their origine could be 'Lanna'.

One of the hills of that area has for a long time been occupied by another ethnic minority, which had its roots in France.

Limbo.

[Joel Barlow]

Hey, the Dutch were colonalist exploitaters as well. But I'd hardly want to defend the "White"

people of the USA in terms of things like that...

Yes, Nan included the part of Laos west of the Mekhong, north to China. A friend pointed

out that Nan kings may have raided into Sipsongpanna for people, thus kind of asserting

kind of "rights" there... and I guess he has a kind of point. But really Nan was never very

powerful, or so it seems from the ChiangMai Chronciles (which might be biased; I haven't

read the Nan Chronicles).

By 1892 Lanna was about as forgotten as Ramkamhaeng had been 60 years earlier. "People of

the Dhamma Letters" has been proposed as a better name for northern culture (sub-Tibetan

Buddhist culture? No, not quite right... upper-inland southeast Asian culture?). There were a

variety of similar alphabets, still used up to the time when French, and somewhat as a result,

Central Thai, were introduced and made important.

Yes, "Nan was Nan. Never more. Really", it's just a quiet, sparcely inhabited, not very industrious

place not famous for much but some temple murals of the late 19th century. Nan was not Lanna,

though of related culture. Royalty intermingled, married, bumped each other off, just like

elsewhere. But Nan somehow didn't get much Chinese influence, somehow. Just some Tai Lue

people from areas of Yunnan now called "autonomous" zones.

[chownah]

I'm surprised that the Lanna Kingdom had any influence in northern Vietnam unless by this they mean just barely into Vietnam up in the highlands. I read a history of Vietnam many years ago but don't remember any mention of Lanna...maybe I've just forgotten. I do seem to remember that way back then the Vietnamese tended to stay in the lowlands where rice could be irrigated since that was the activity around which their culture developed....so maybe at that time the Vietnamese just considered that whoever was up in the hills were just mountain people and of no consequence. Don't know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One of the ethnic minorities of Vietnam is called 'Tai Dam' (Black Tai).

If I recall things right, they are supposed to live in the area around Dien Bien Phu (spelling?). Their origine could be 'Lanna'.

One of the hills of that area has for a long time been occupied by another ethnic minority, which had its roots in France.

Limbo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I find it unlikely that the Tai Dam had much to do with Lanna culture since their language has little Sanskrit or Pali influence. I think that they were mountain people up until a couple of hundred years ago and if this is correct then it is probably not correct to associate them with the Lanna culture which was predomenantly a lowland sort of thing.

[homealone]

I'm surprised that the Lanna Kingdom had any influence in northern Vietnam unless by this they mean just barely into Vietnam up in the highlands. I read a history of Vietnam many years ago but don't remember any mention of Lanna...maybe I've just forgotten. I do seem to remember that way back then the Vietnamese tended to stay in the lowlands where rice could be irrigated since that was the activity around which their culture developed....so maybe at that time the Vietnamese just considered that whoever was up in the hills were just mountain people and of no consequence. Don't know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One of the ethnic minorities of Vietnam is called 'Tai Dam' (Black Tai).

If I recall things right, they are supposed to live in the area around Dien Bien Phu (spelling?). Their origine could be 'Lanna'.

One of the hills of that area has for a long time been occupied by another ethnic minority, which had its roots in France.

Limbo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I find it unlikely that the Tai Dam had much to do with Lanna culture since their language has little Sanskrit or Pali influence. I think that they were mountain people up until a couple of hundred years ago and if this is correct then it is probably not correct to associate them with the Lanna culture which was predomenantly a lowland sort of thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lanna Thai are a different ethnic group from Tai.

Homealone

[Joel Barlow]

Sometimes rule? give me a source for that.

[Joel Barlow]

Come on Limbo - they didn't originate in Lanna, but where Tai immigrants to Lanna came from. Southern China. Haven't encountered rumore of eastward migration ot Tais in my extensive readings on the subject...

Most Tai people, by the by, may have heard of ChiangMai, but they haven't heard of Lanna. Shans doen't even believe it ever existed!