Wreath For House Speaker Sparks Red-Shirt Attack

[nicknostitz]

Several witnesses have stated that before the incident the two students have briefly conferred with a waiting Democrat Party MP before they have walked over to the gate to parliament.

Who are these witnesses?

The first witnesses i spoke with were Red Shirts. But of course that is not enough, given that they are not exactly impartial. I have also found a witness who was not a Red Shirt protester, but works there in direct sight of where the conversation took place.

[whybother]

...

The problem here in this topic is, that the whole discussion is based on shoddy journalism.

...

Not just in this topic. In nearly every piece in Thailand's English media.

Edited August 26, 2011 by whybother

[nicknostitz]

...

The problem here in this topic is, that the whole discussion is based on shoddy journalism.

...

Not just in this topic. In nearly every piece in Thailand's English media.

That unfortunately is absolutely true.

[rixalex]

Several witnesses have stated that before the incident the two students have briefly conferred with a waiting Democrat Party MP before they have walked over to the gate to parliament.

Who are these witnesses?

The first witnesses i spoke with were Red Shirts. But of course that is not enough, given that they are not exactly impartial. I have also found a witness who was not a Red Shirt protester, but works there in direct sight of where the conversation took place.

OK. And the Democrat Party MP was?

[nicknostitz]

OK. And the Democrat Party MP was?

Given that ThaiVisa is a webforum, and neither traditional nor new media, and his name hasn't been published in either yet, i prefer not to disclose the name right now. He is not one of the top ranked ones well known on this forum here.

[OzMick]

Unfortunately the report by the nation was not complete. The incident indeed took place. What though was not reported about here was what happened before the attempted laying of the wreath.

Several witnesses have stated that before the incident the two students have briefly conferred with a waiting Democrat Party MP before they have walked over to the gate to parliament. There is quite a bit of further evidence that this thing may have been a set up by agent provocateurs connected to the Democrat Party to provoke a violent reaction. Police is investigating the incident. Part reason of the over reaction of the Red Shirts was also that the wreath contained a large clock, and people feared that it may have contained a bomb. At the time most police officers were at the Farmers mob not far away from parliament, and could not get there on time to prevent the incident. Also most Red Shirt guards were not there yet.

The Red Shirts that were the last days at parliament were a mostly leaderless group. Over the last 3 days the Red Shirt guards have had a hard time to hold the protesters back. There were already several incidents that could have resulted in violence, if the Red Shirt guards would not have prevented their protesters from over-reacting, such as on the 22nd, when suddenly a small group of dog lovers protested in front of parliament, and ordinary Red Shirts believed that they may have been a group connected to Dr. Tul's group, which came a bit later (and was also protected by Red Shirt guards who kept the protesters on the other side of the road).

This was not an incident of organized violence, but originated from the fear of Red Shirts that the opposition may organize or support an attempt to block parliament again, as happened on Oct. 7, 2008. Unfortunately this paranoia was not just fueled by rumors but also by some local hardcore Red Shirt leaders, who are very disputed in the movement itself, and have been successfully prevented by moderate Red Shirt leaders from staging more stupid actions.

It will take some time to calm Red Shirts down. After 5 years of continuous conflict Red Shirts are still in fear that their opposition will resort again to unconstitutional measures to topple the government they have elected, and naturally their paranoia level is still very high. Incidents such as those show the need that all sides have to start toning down, so that there is a chance for moving politics off the streets and back into parliament. Which not just means the Red Shirts, but also the Democrat Party and the military - whose close connections to groups such as Dr. Tul's group and other more darker groups are not exactly productive to a peaceful conflict resolution.

Do i detect more than a hint of bias in this post?

"..........a set up by agent provocateurs connected to the Democrat Party to provoke a violent reaction." Didn't take much, did it?

"......... the wreath contained a large clock, and people feared that it may have contained a bomb" Of course, short-sighted bombers prefer large clocks rather than a digital watch.

"..........naturally their paranoia level is still very high." So access to parliament is controlled by a bunch of paranoid thugs, semi-controlled by another bunch of paranoid thugs, who seem to feel free to intimidate and assault anybody they suspect may criticize THEIR government. Tone things down? Where are the police who supposedly guard parliament? Why don't they tell this para-military crew to F#@k off back to the boonies or get thrown in a cell.

Protesting outside parliament is the right of every citizen, up to the point they start causing serious disruption. No group whether their shirts be red, brown or black has the right to "protect" parliament from protesters. Pity the dog lovers hadn't brought a few dobermans and rotties with them. (What's black and gold and looks good around the throat of a red shirt?)

[Buchholz]

[

Maybe the PTP should set an example and break ties with their "agent provocateurs" ... you know, the ones that were spreading their cheer with grenades and bombs last year.

I thought that the topic here right now was yesterday's incident, and not last year's mess, which not just includes violence by Red Shirt militants, but numerous protesters killed by the military.

The topic that you brought up was about "agent provocateurs".

It seems that one group's "agent provocateurs" laying a wreath, is different that another group's "agent provocateurs" that beat them up, among other things.

I think you are a bit confused over the definition of 'Agent Provocateur'.

True. The thugs beating up people are just Agents

[rixalex]

OK. And the Democrat Party MP was?

Given that ThaiVisa is a webforum, and neither traditional nor new media, and his name hasn't been published in either yet, i prefer not to disclose the name right now. He is not one of the top ranked ones well known on this forum here.

You talk about shoddy journalism, and lament why your details weren't investigated or indeed included in the story, but when it comes down to it, you have some unnamed sources stating that the two concerned spoke to an unnamed Democrat MP. All a bit flimsy don't you think?

And the fact that this MP is you state pretty unknown, leads me to wonder how these witnesses had no trouble identifying him.

[Buchholz]

OK. And the Democrat Party MP was?

Given that ThaiVisa is a webforum, and neither traditional nor new media, and his name hasn't been published in either yet, i prefer not to disclose the name right now. He is not one of the top ranked ones well known on this forum here.

Gotta have a little intrigue, don't ya know, rixalex...

Otherwise, it's just not interesting.

.

[SomTumTiger]

Two troublemakers were caught making what is tantamount to a death threat, and people are condemning those that stopped the troublemakers?

Look at what happened;

Around noon, two men dressed like students stepped out of a taxi to place a wreath titled "To Speaker Somsak Kiatsuranont who is sitting in the heart of Thaksin - from the Democratic Student Group" in front of the Parliament compound.

1. Dressed like students? Was it to give the impression that they were students so that students would be blamed?

2. Democratic Student Group? The group has not link to this event and it was a false cover set up to mislead the public to give the impression that students were upset.

3. A wreath? This is what is sent for funerals. Does one not understand the message? It was the equivalent of a message saying you are dead.

The fact of the matter is that 2 people concealing their identity and intending to mislead the public were caught in the act. Instead of blaming the people that stopped these 2 conmen, ask who these people were and who sent them. What was uncovered was the M.O. of the saboteurs and agent provocateurs that havebeen at the heart of the political violence in Thailand.

Your value system is so terribly warped. Blame the victim indeed. Red shirts who harmed them? Not a peep.

[tominbkk]

There is going to be war people. Sooner or later.

Be very afraid.

Get out while you still can. It will be very bloody and the bullets and bombs won't distinguish between Thai and Farang.

May we live in interesting times. :jap:

[monkfish]

...

The problem here in this topic is, that the whole discussion is based on shoddy journalism.

...

Not just in this topic. In nearly every piece in Thailand's English media.

That unfortunately is absolutely true.

I'm not sure the Nation would have published the whole story even if they new the facts.

In my opinion the Thai media is partly responsible for Thailand's problems and still intent on miss informing the Public with only half truth's.

Or completely not publishing stories which do not align with their political leanings, unfortunetly this seems to include most English speaking media in Thailand.

Now I am waiting for Abhisit to claim Thailand's Press Freedom Index is at the lowest it's been for 20 years and the Nation to publish a story about it.

Just as he so kindly pointed out the current high cost of living.

[lannarebirth]

Unfortunately the report by the nation was not complete. The incident indeed took place. What though was not reported about here was what happened before the attempted laying of the wreath.

Several witnesses have stated that before the incident the two students have briefly conferred with a waiting Democrat Party MP before they have walked over to the gate to parliament. There is quite a bit of further evidence that this thing may have been a set up by agent provocateurs connected to the Democrat Party to provoke a violent reaction. Police is investigating the incident. Part reason of the over reaction of the Red Shirts was also that the wreath contained a large clock, and people feared that it may have contained a bomb. At the time most police officers were at the Farmers mob not far away from parliament, and could not get there on time to prevent the incident. Also most Red Shirt guards were not there yet.

The Red Shirts that were the last days at parliament were a mostly leaderless group. Over the last 3 days the Red Shirt guards have had a hard time to hold the protesters back. There were already several incidents that could have resulted in violence, if the Red Shirt guards would not have prevented their protesters from over-reacting, such as on the 22nd, when suddenly a small group of dog lovers protested in front of parliament, and ordinary Red Shirts believed that they may have been a group connected to Dr. Tul's group, which came a bit later (and was also protected by Red Shirt guards who kept the protesters on the other side of the road).

This was not an incident of organized violence, but originated from the fear of Red Shirts that the opposition may organize or support an attempt to block parliament again, as happened on Oct. 7, 2008. Unfortunately this paranoia was not just fueled by rumors but also by some local hardcore Red Shirt leaders, who are very disputed in the movement itself, and have been successfully prevented by moderate Red Shirt leaders from staging more stupid actions.

It will take some time to calm Red Shirts down. After 5 years of continuous conflict Red Shirts are still in fear that their opposition will resort again to unconstitutional measures to topple the government they have elected, and naturally their paranoia level is still very high. Incidents such as those show the need that all sides have to start toning down, so that there is a chance for moving politics off the streets and back into parliament. Which not just means the Red Shirts, but also the Democrat Party and the military - whose close connections to groups such as Dr. Tul's group and other more darker groups are not exactly productive to a peaceful conflict resolution.

That's not news, that an op/ed piece . Did you ever actually attend a journalism school?

[Crushdepth]

Unfortunately the report by the nation was not complete. The incident indeed took place. What though was not reported about here was what happened before the attempted laying of the wreath.

Several witnesses have stated that before the incident the two students have briefly conferred with a waiting Democrat Party MP before they have walked over to the gate to parliament. There is quite a bit of further evidence that this thing may have been a set up by agent provocateurs connected to the Democrat Party to provoke a violent reaction. Police is investigating the incident. Part reason of the over reaction of the Red Shirts was also that the wreath contained a large clock, and people feared that it may have contained a bomb. At the time most police officers were at the Farmers mob not far away from parliament, and could not get there on time to prevent the incident. Also most Red Shirt guards were not there yet.

So let's assume that it was a politically motivated stunt. Was it illegal? Is political expression forbidden now? Did it warrant a violent response? Use of the term 'agent provocateurs' here is excessive, particularly when we have had real provocateurs throwing grenades.

[lannarebirth]

Several witnesses have stated that before the incident the two students have briefly conferred with a waiting Democrat Party MP before they have walked over to the gate to parliament.

Who are these witnesses?

What difference does it make? It's just misdirection and obfuscation to get you talking about something that doesn't matter at all. Violent reaction to lawful speech is the subject matter.

[rixalex]

OK. And the Democrat Party MP was?

Given that ThaiVisa is a webforum, and neither traditional nor new media, and his name hasn't been published in either yet, i prefer not to disclose the name right now. He is not one of the top ranked ones well known on this forum here.

Gotta have a little intrigue, don't ya know, rixalex...

Otherwise, it's just not interesting.

.

Some might say interesting.. others might say convenient.

Reluctance to share names i would think comes from uncertainty about the quality of the information. Uncertainty about whether it can be backed up. Until it can, i can fully understand why The Nation didn't include it in the story. Surprised that Nick can't.

[rubl]

Several surrounded the two activists. One red shirt hit the pair with a roll of hard paper and kicked them before other red shirts intervened.

ex-students, dressed as students, obviously trying to provoke, hit by red-shirts.

Makes you wonder what would have happened if the two had dressed up as yellow-shirts or multi-colour-shirts? sit down, have a drink with us, let's discuss politics in a democratic fashion ?

I think I will refrain from carrying the Pheu Thai campaign poster with "300B/d, 15,000/m" to parliament. It would certainly be seen as an act of provocation

Edited August 26, 2011 by rubl

[dominique355]

Charlatans? Fakery?

Two people making a political statement were beaten down by red shirts.

Yay for Red Democracy.

Yes. There is no Democratic Student Group. Why make a bogus wreath? Why dress up as students and try to pass the wreath off as a "student" protest? Is that honest?

Had these people come on their own and protested, I wouldn't say anything, but this was a clear attempt to attribute a protest to a non existant group of students.

Apparently you have no problem with agent provocateurs attempting to foment civil disorder.

Exactly against which law or principle of Democracy is it to dress up as anything?

And what about the "dress up" of the PTP "Schutzstaffel" in their red shirts and red caps? Is this dress-up unproblematic?

I note that expressing an opinion contrary to PTP is now qualified as civil disorder.

I am afraid we will see more, much more of this intimidation of any diverging opinion by the Red Shirts. And why not? Don't you see that they got away with all they have done so far, even got elected to parliament, so clearly a majority in this country is against freedom of speech.

RIP democracy and Human rights!

[whybother]

...

RIP democracy and Human rights!

Just don't go to parliament with a wreath saying that. Someone is bound to beat you up.

[MunterHunter]

...

RIP democracy and Human rights!

Just don't go to parliament with a wreath saying that. Someone is bound to beat you up.

Anything else people shouldn't do as well? or is it just going to parliament to express an opinion?

[whybother]

...

RIP democracy and Human rights!

Just don't go to parliament with a wreath saying that. Someone is bound to beat you up.

Anything else people shouldn't do as well? or is it just going to parliament to express an opinion?

I would suggest not going anywhere near the red shirts and expressing an opinion.

Red shirts aren't too fond of other peoples opinions.

[MunterHunter]

I would suggest not going anywhere near the red shirts and expressing an opinion.

Red shirts aren't too fond of other peoples opinions.

Yay for Red Democracy and Freedom of Speech!

[Siripon]

The incident at Parliament, the intimidation of the Channel 7 reporter and the Chinese lady reporter wearing yellow are all signs of the effect of months, or even years of the relentless propaganda of Jatupon and Nattawut.

Hate filled invective impresses uneducated minds, until they are brainwashed.

Nattawut and Jatupon have a lot to answer for.

[kraplung]

I guess the only answer to journalists asking her Cloneness difficult questions is for big brother to try and buy up the rest of the media again.

[nicknostitz]

That's not news, that an op/ed piece . Did you ever actually attend a journalism school?

I never claimed that this is "news".

This is just a post on a webforum, trying to be a bit of clarity in an otherwise obscure issue.

And no - i never attended any journalism school. Many working journalists never did. But i have had the opportunity to work with, and learn from some excellent colleagues in the almost 20 years i have been in this profession.

[nicknostitz]

OK. And the Democrat Party MP was?

Given that ThaiVisa is a webforum, and neither traditional nor new media, and his name hasn't been published in either yet, i prefer not to disclose the name right now. He is not one of the top ranked ones well known on this forum here.

You talk about shoddy journalism, and lament why your details weren't investigated or indeed included in the story, but when it comes down to it, you have some unnamed sources stating that the two concerned spoke to an unnamed Democrat MP. All a bit flimsy don't you think?

And the fact that this MP is you state pretty unknown, leads me to wonder how these witnesses had no trouble identifying him.

Quite simple - i have posted this on a web forum, and not on a media outlet. I do not want to fight possible libel charges with the only back up being a web forum. If i have the time to write a piece, and maybe publish it on new mandala, i will of course publish the name.

I stated that the PM involved is unknown on this forum here - not under Thais in general.

[whybother]

I stated that the PM involved is unknown on this forum here - not under Thais in general.

Oh ... it's the PM now????

... just kidding.

[nicknostitz]

Unfortunately the report by the nation was not complete. The incident indeed took place. What though was not reported about here was what happened before the attempted laying of the wreath.

Several witnesses have stated that before the incident the two students have briefly conferred with a waiting Democrat Party MP before they have walked over to the gate to parliament. There is quite a bit of further evidence that this thing may have been a set up by agent provocateurs connected to the Democrat Party to provoke a violent reaction. Police is investigating the incident. Part reason of the over reaction of the Red Shirts was also that the wreath contained a large clock, and people feared that it may have contained a bomb. At the time most police officers were at the Farmers mob not far away from parliament, and could not get there on time to prevent the incident. Also most Red Shirt guards were not there yet.

So let's assume that it was a politically motivated stunt. Was it illegal? Is political expression forbidden now? Did it warrant a violent response? Use of the term 'agent provocateurs' here is excessive, particularly when we have had real provocateurs throwing grenades.

Yesterday we had nobody throwing grenades. So, lets leave the subject with what happened yesterday.

No, i am not in a position to judge the exact legalities, and no - in my opinion laying a wreath is not illegal. The reaction from the Red Shirts was illegal, and very stupid. But what is very distasteful is setting up a situation with the aim to create a violent reaction by protesters for a short term political gain. It has been more than well known that the mood of the protesters was quite critical, and both police and Red Shirt guards were over the previous two days quite occupied to prevent incidents.

When Dr. Tul's group came to parliament on the 22nd, which is their right - they gave advance notice, and so police and Red Shirt guards were prepared, and both sides could be kept at a distance from each other. The two men laying the wreath though gave no advance notice, were seen talking with a Democrat Party MP just before their action, surprised everyone present on the scene, leading to a small mess that is now blown completely out of proportion. Don't forget that immediately after the incident Satit Wongnongtoey managed to present at parliament an image supposedly taken by a journalist on the scene.

Thai politics is dirty, and games such as the one this topic is about is a regular feature that all sides engage in at times. The aim of such games is quite clear as well, so that people can fall for it - as we can see here in this discussion...

[Siripon]

OK. And the Democrat Party MP was?

Given that ThaiVisa is a webforum, and neither traditional nor new media, and his name hasn't been published in either yet, i prefer not to disclose the name right now. He is not one of the top ranked ones well known on this forum here.

You talk about shoddy journalism, and lament why your details weren't investigated or indeed included in the story, but when it comes down to it, you have some unnamed sources stating that the two concerned spoke to an unnamed Democrat MP. All a bit flimsy don't you think?

And the fact that this MP is you state pretty unknown, leads me to wonder how these witnesses had no trouble identifying him.

Quite simple - i have posted this on a web forum, and not on a media outlet. I do not want to fight possible libel charges with the only back up being a web forum. If i have the time to write a piece, and maybe publish it on new mandala, i will of course publish the name.

I stated that the PM involved is unknown on this forum here - not under Thais in general.

Nick, did anyone catch a glimpse of this PM,a silhouette as it were, was his head square-like?

[nicknostitz]

[

Nick, did anyone catch a glimpse of this PM,a silhouette as it were, was his head square-like?

Sorry, typo.

The square headed PM is not that omnipresent...