Wreath For House Speaker Sparks Red-Shirt Attack

[rubl]

begin removed ...

It appears even the "more debate concious" and "reasonable" posters are falling by the wayside and being influenced by the herd mentality of the majority of posters, each trying to up the ante and winding each other up over how "outraged" they are by a certain issue (not just this one!) and in the event completely missing the underlying implications of that event.

... end removed

Well, at least you didn't mention any names, so you should be safe, my dear friend

i think most people who frequent this site know exactly of the people he's talking about :lol:

i'm sure You know too eh?

By Jove, you don't mean ... he was referring to geriatrickid? Of all the nice people I know ...

[hanuman1]

Of course the two men who got hit by Red Shirts had a right to do what they did. It is akin to the Orange Men of Northern Ireland doing their annual walks through areas of Belfast populated by hated 'enemies'. Perfectly legal. But both examples show a total lack of sensitivity for the immediate environment in which they take place, to the point of irresponsibility.

Why should these two have shown sensitivity by not laying the wreath? Because the vast majority of long-standing conflicts that have been settled in the modern era have been settled through some degree of engagement and understanding (read 'sensitivity') with the 'enemy'.

Those who cling to the short-sighted and narrow-minded position that the two who got beaten were within their rights to do what they did - and are therefore entirely blameless for the feelings they (probably knowingly) stoked - are deliberately using this fact to ignore the wider considerations involved in carrying out such an act and only seek to perpetuate the ill-feeling and divisions which feed their appetite to continually showcase their moral superiority and affected righteousness.

In my slightly-less-than-humble opinion.

Edited August 26, 2011 by hanuman1

[rubl]

To put things related to human interaction into perspective, may I offer the latest from Borowitz report?

"Hurricane Could Force People to Interact with Other People, Officials Warn FEMA: Prepare for Unwanted Eye Contact, Awkward Silences

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report) – As Hurricane Irene prepared to batter the East Coast of the United States, federal disaster officials warned that Internet outages caused by the storm could force people to interact with other people for the first time in years.

News of the possible interpersonal interactions created panic up and down the coast as residents braced themselves for the horror of awkward silences and unwanted eye contact.

And as officials warned people in the hurricane zone to stay indoors, residents feared the worst: conversations with members of their immediate family.

At the Federal Emergency Management Agency, FEMA chief Craig Fugate offered these words of advice for those who may be forced into direct contact with other human beings: “Be prepared. Write down possible topics to talk about in advance. Sports is a good one, and of course the weather. Remember, a conversation is basically a series of Facebook updates strung together.”

He also offered these words of hope for those trapped interacting with other people due to an Internet outage: “At some point, the wifi will go back on, and hopefully you won’t have to go through anything like this again for a long, long time.”

In a related story, the Rev. Pat Robertson said the best way to prepare for Hurricane Irene is not being gay."

http://www.borowitzreport.com/

[rubl]

Of course the two men who got hit by Red Shirts had a right to do what they did. It is akin to the Orange Men of Northern Ireland doing their annual walks through areas of Belfast populated by hated 'enemies'. Perfectly legal. But both examples show a total lack of sensitivity for the immediate environment in which they take place, to the point of irresponsibility.

Why should these two have shown sensitivity by not laying the wreath? Because the vast majority of long-standing conflicts that have been settled in the modern era have been settled through some degree of engagement and understanding (read 'sensitivity') with the 'enemy'.

Those who cling to the short-sighted and narrow-minded position that the two who got beaten were within their rights to do what they did - and are therefore entirely blameless for the feelings they (probably knowingly) stoked - are deliberately using this fact to ignore the wider considerations involved in carrying out such an act and only seek to perpetuate the ill-feeling and divisions which feed their appetite to continually display their moral superiority and affected righteousness.

In my slightly-less-than-humble opinion.

To compare the two men, silently wanting to put a wreath (at least till now no one alleged they were verbally abusive), with the Northern Irish Orange Men accompanied by a band and very, very visible and loud, is a bit misleading. Those two seem more like two guys who wandered off in the night in the wrong part of town and got mugged. They should have known better, but to blame them for the mugging goes a bit too far.

In my humble opinion as Dutch uncle who likes to give well-meaning, unwanted advise

[MAJIC]

If all these characters are so bloody smart why aren't they being consulted by numerous governments around the world to solve their problems ?

Actually - they are.

Numerous governments, embassies, and companies do contract some of the people i have mentioned to advise or consult them, in addition to being in the employ of Universities.

Care to name some of the "Numerous Governments" consulted,and MUCH more to the point about what?

[Buchholz]

The wreath-layer has valid points in his comments below. If the Red Shirts feel they have the right to pool around Parliament, so does everyone else. He has as much right to demonstrate in his manner as the Red Shirts there feel they do.

A group of angry red shirts man-handled Yuthapoom and a friend after the two placed the wreath in front of Parliament on Thursday.

Yuthapoom said he would not file a complaint with police, although he claims he was physically assaulted.

"They have the right to gather in support of the government. But they also have to respect the law. I don't want this incident to happen again," he said.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/08/27/national/Parliament-wreath-layer-denies-paid-for-protest-30163794.html

The additional Red Shirts aggressive actions coming to light reflect more and more about their tactics.

Democrat MP Watchara Phetthong's black Jeep had been vandalised by red-shirt supporters of the Pheu Thai Party while it was parked outside the Parliament compound on Thursday.

The air had been let out of the car's tyres, and abusive messages written in the dust on the body of the vehicle. A sticker calling for the amendment of the lese majeste law was plastered over a Democrat Party sticker on the vehicle's rear window.

the car of chief party adviser Chuan Leekpai was also attacked on Wednesday night while he was inside.

Chuan was leaving Parliament in his car after the collapse of a parliamentary meeting on government policies due to a lack of quorum when a group of red shirts who had gathered at the compound's gate tried to surround his vehicle. One of them struck its flag mast. Chuan escaped injury, Ramet said.

The vehicle's interior light was on at the time, as Chuan was reading inside the car.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/08/27/national/Parliament-wreath-layer-denies-paid-for-protest-30163794.html

Old habits die hard apparently. Hopefully the less violent Red Shirts will rein in their more troublesome fellow members very soon.

.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Buchholz

[jayboy]

Of course the two men who got hit by Red Shirts had a right to do what they did. It is akin to the Orange Men of Northern Ireland doing their annual walks through areas of Belfast populated by hated 'enemies'. Perfectly legal. But both examples show a total lack of sensitivity for the immediate environment in which they take place, to the point of irresponsibility.

Why should these two have shown sensitivity by not laying the wreath? Because the vast majority of long-standing conflicts that have been settled in the modern era have been settled through some degree of engagement and understanding (read 'sensitivity') with the 'enemy'.

Those who cling to the short-sighted and narrow-minded position that the two who got beaten were within their rights to do what they did - and are therefore entirely blameless for the feelings they (probably knowingly) stoked - are deliberately using this fact to ignore the wider considerations involved in carrying out such an act and only seek to perpetuate the ill-feeling and divisions which feed their appetite to continually showcase their moral superiority and affected righteousness.

In my slightly-less-than-humble opinion.

I don't really agree.The redshirts don't "own" any part of the nation's capital, nor do they have any responsibility to keep order.If there is ever a sensitivity about protests it's a matter for the civil authorities, particularly the police.In the reported case, taking up the N.Ireland analogy, I don't think there was any wish to stoke up trouble by the couple concerned - slightly pointless , even inane, in my view but within their rights.In short the red leadership should crack down on this kind of behaviour.

There are examples of course where there has been deliberate provocation in Thailand particularly by the crazier wing of the PAD for example in solid Thaksin supporting areas in the North and more recently on the Cambodian border.That's a different matter altogether.The latter activity probably should have been banned (though in reality it was encouraged by some elements in the military), the former perhaps permitted but under strict police supervision - rather like Mosley's fascists in the late 1930's when they launched provocative marches into London's East End.If one or two of these had their bottoms kicked it would not exactly be a national tragedy.

But the incident with the wreath for House Speaker doesn't fall into this category, and frankly the leadership should pull redshirts off the streets unless properly authorised.

[geriatrickid]

To compare the two men, silently wanting to put a wreath (at least till now no one alleged they were verbally abusive), with the Northern Irish Orange Men accompanied by a band and very, very visible and loud, is a bit misleading. Those two seem more like two guys who wandered off in the night in the wrong part of town and got mugged. They should have known better, but to blame them for the mugging goes a bit too far.

In my humble opinion as Dutch uncle who likes to give well-meaning, unwanted advise

You and the other finger waggers have willfully ignored several facts;

1. The wreath layers purported to represent the "Democratic Student Group". Yet there is no such group that authorized such a wreath. Why would these people have created the false image that students were voicing dissent? No such a group authorized these men to lay a wreath on their behalf. Is this not deceitful and misleading?

2. The wreathlayers attempted to pass themselves off as students. Yet no one questions why if they were honest protestors they chose to disguise themselves. One of the 40 year olds is still playing the student angle. Puhleeze. When I was 17 and an undergrad, I might have been able to get away with such an excuse., but a middle aged man pretending to be a student? Right.

3. The wreathlayers have links to the Democrats and yet no one questions who was behind this attempt to cause a fight, to instigate trouble.

An attempt to mislead the public was attempted and these two instigators were caught. Perhaps the reason why they will not press the matter is that an investigation will lead back to some Democrat supporters and not students voicing a grievance.

[AleG]

They should have done something more subtle and less confrontational, like dumping buckets of blood on the PMs house.

[Ricardo]

The two were clearly 'wrong-uns', as they were seen to speak to an Opposition-MP, beforehand !

Thank heavens this plot to intimidate democracy was foiled, by the ceaseless vigilance, of the public-spirited Red-Shirt passers-by, who were clearly not engaged themselves in any sort of democratic-protest or action. :

[nurofiend]

begin removed ...

It appears even the "more debate concious" and "reasonable" posters are falling by the wayside and being influenced by the herd mentality of the majority of posters, each trying to up the ante and winding each other up over how "outraged" they are by a certain issue (not just this one!) and in the event completely missing the underlying implications of that event.

... end removed

Well, at least you didn't mention any names, so you should be safe, my dear friend

i think most people who frequent this site know exactly of the people he's talking about :lol:

i'm sure You know too eh?

By Jove, you don't mean ... he was referring to geriatrickid? Of all the nice people I know ...

mmm... i don't think so somehow

[Buchholz]

To compare the two men, silently wanting to put a wreath (at least till now no one alleged they were verbally abusive), with the Northern Irish Orange Men accompanied by a band and very, very visible and loud, is a bit misleading. Those two seem more like two guys who wandered off in the night in the wrong part of town and got mugged. They should have known better, but to blame them for the mugging goes a bit too far.

In my humble opinion as Dutch uncle who likes to give well-meaning, unwanted advise

1. The wreath layers purported to represent the "Democratic Student Group". Yet there is no such group that authorized such a wreath. Why would these people have created the false image that students were voicing dissent? No such a group authorized these men to lay a wreath on their behalf. Is this not deceitful and misleading?

Time to re-post the un-answered question.

There is no Democratic Student Group.

And you know this because...you couldn't find them by googling?

[rixalex]

You and the other finger waggers have willfully ignored several facts;

1. The wreath layers purported to represent the "Democratic Student Group". Yet there is no such group that authorized such a wreath. Why would these people have created the false image that students were voicing dissent? No such a group authorized these men to lay a wreath on their behalf. Is this not deceitful and misleading?

2. The wreathlayers attempted to pass themselves off as students. Yet no one questions why if they were honest protestors they chose to disguise themselves. One of the 40 year olds is still playing the student angle. Puhleeze. When I was 17 and an undergrad, I might have been able to get away with such an excuse., but a middle aged man pretending to be a student? Right.

3. The wreathlayers have links to the Democrats and yet no one questions who was behind this attempt to cause a fight, to instigate trouble.

An attempt to mislead the public was attempted and these two instigators were caught. Perhaps the reason why they will not press the matter is that an investigation will lead back to some Democrat supporters and not students voicing a grievance.

You and the other finger waggers have willfully ignored several facts;

What followed that sentence was not facts, but speculations, which you have chosen to believe as gospel, and have decided in some way justifies physical assault. It's not gospel, it's for the most part word of red supporters, and even were it gospel, it would not in any way make physical assault acceptable. At least not in the free, fair, democratic, open society, you would have us believe you support.

As far as the reasons for why the two victims are not pressing charges, perhaps that could have something to do with intimidation and fear.

[jayboy]

It wouldn't surprise me if the two wreath layers were "wrong uns" as someone has put it: in fact I would be surprised if they weren't.However it doesn't alter the view that there was no reason for the redshirts to be hanging around there anyway "supporting the government".It's inappropriate and intimidating and the government should make that clear.

[rixalex]

It wouldn't surprise me if the two wreath layers were "wrong uns" as someone has put it: in fact I would be surprised if they weren't.However it doesn't alter the view that there was no reason for the redshirts to be hanging around there anyway "supporting the government".It's inappropriate and intimidating and the government should make that clear.

I think the red shirts have every right to hang around there, if they so wish. The problem is them acting as if it is somehow their turf and that they are within their rights - as geriatickid is ridiculously arguing here on their behalf - to deal themselves with people they don't take a liking to.

Some people need to learn the meaning of what they are supposedly fighting for.

[jayboy]

It wouldn't surprise me if the two wreath layers were "wrong uns" as someone has put it: in fact I would be surprised if they weren't.However it doesn't alter the view that there was no reason for the redshirts to be hanging around there anyway "supporting the government".It's inappropriate and intimidating and the government should make that clear.

I think the red shirts have every right to hang around there, if they so wish. The problem is them acting as if it is somehow their turf and that they are within their rights - as geriatickid is ridiculously arguing here on their behalf - to deal themselves with people they don't take a liking to.

Some people need to learn the meaning of what they are supposedly fighting for.

I actually agree with you on this.Yes they have the theoretical right to hang around, but it would be quite reasonable for a Thai equivalent of P.C Dixon (British members of a certain age will know what I mean) to say "Come along boys. move along, haven't you got anything better to do".

[scorecard]

If all these characters are so bloody smart why aren't they being consulted by numerous governments around the world to solve their problems ?

Actually - they are.

Numerous governments, embassies, and companies do contract some of the people i have mentioned to advise or consult them, in addition to being in the employ of Universities.

Care to name some of the "Numerous Governments" consulted,and MUCH more to the point about what?

Agree, please share just one good example, dare you.

[scorecard]

It wouldn't surprise me if the two wreath layers were "wrong uns" as someone has put it: in fact I would be surprised if they weren't.However it doesn't alter the view that there was no reason for the redshirts to be hanging around there anyway "supporting the government".It's inappropriate and intimidating and the government should make that clear.

I think the red shirts have every right to hang around there, if they so wish. The problem is them acting as if it is somehow their turf and that they are within their rights - as geriatickid is ridiculously arguing here on their behalf - to deal themselves with people they don't take a liking to.

Some people need to learn the meaning of what they are supposedly fighting for.

Agree, they have claimed that they want democracy at the same quality as seen in many western countries, they want total respect for the law etc etc and no double standards.

Then they break all of their claims.

[jayboy]

It wouldn't surprise me if the two wreath layers were "wrong uns" as someone has put it: in fact I would be surprised if they weren't.However it doesn't alter the view that there was no reason for the redshirts to be hanging around there anyway "supporting the government".It's inappropriate and intimidating and the government should make that clear.

I think the red shirts have every right to hang around there, if they so wish. The problem is them acting as if it is somehow their turf and that they are within their rights - as geriatickid is ridiculously arguing here on their behalf - to deal themselves with people they don't take a liking to.

Some people need to learn the meaning of what they are supposedly fighting for.

Agree, they have claimed that they want democracy at the same quality as seen in many western countries, they want total respect for the law etc etc and no double standards.

Then they break all of their claims.

You are over reacting or at least drawing premature conclusions.We are talking here of a a handful not the redshirt movement.Let's see how things look in a few months.

And let's not forget the Democrats had at one time extremely close links with the wholly undemocratic PAD.

All political parties in Thailand pay lip service to democratic values.It's the duty of civil society, the press and the political opposition to make sure standards are kept up.

[nicknostitz]

If all these characters are so bloody smart why aren't they being consulted by numerous governments around the world to solve their problems ?

Actually - they are.

Numerous governments, embassies, and companies do contract some of the people i have mentioned to advise or consult them, in addition to being in the employ of Universities.

Care to name some of the "Numerous Governments" consulted,and MUCH more to the point about what?

Agree, please share just one good example, dare you.

It is very common that all governments and big companies hire academics for consultancy projects in specialty fields. The academics i mentioned are well known academics from respected institutions, all with a long list of publications, and are naturally approached by stakeholders over the Thai political situation. Academics don't just live from their university salaries alone, at least the ones that so not want to live like paupers (of which there are many though).

Other than formal consultancy contracts there are of course regular informal contacts between Governments and the academic world.

I hope i do not have to get embroiled here now in a discussion on how governments operate.

Please...

[webfact]

related:

Thai Parliament Wreath-Layer Denies Paid For Protest

Follow this link:

[tlansford]

Unfortunately the report by the nation was not complete. The incident indeed took place. What though was not reported about here was what happened before the attempted laying of the wreath.

Several witnesses have stated that before the incident the two students have briefly conferred with a waiting Democrat Party MP before they have walked over to the gate to parliament. There is quite a bit of further evidence that this thing may have been a set up by agent provocateurs connected to the Democrat Party to provoke a violent reaction. Police is investigating the incident. Part reason of the over reaction of the Red Shirts was also that the wreath contained a large clock, and people feared that it may have contained a bomb. At the time most police officers were at the Farmers mob not far away from parliament, and could not get there on time to prevent the incident. Also most Red Shirt guards were not there yet.

The Red Shirts that were the last days at parliament were a mostly leaderless group. Over the last 3 days the Red Shirt guards have had a hard time to hold the protesters back. There were already several incidents that could have resulted in violence, if the Red Shirt guards would not have prevented their protesters from over-reacting, such as on the 22nd, when suddenly a small group of dog lovers protested in front of parliament, and ordinary Red Shirts believed that they may have been a group connected to Dr. Tul's group, which came a bit later (and was also protected by Red Shirt guards who kept the protesters on the other side of the road).

This was not an incident of organized violence, but originated from the fear of Red Shirts that the opposition may organize or support an attempt to block parliament again, as happened on Oct. 7, 2008. Unfortunately this paranoia was not just fueled by rumors but also by some local hardcore Red Shirt leaders, who are very disputed in the movement itself, and have been successfully prevented by moderate Red Shirt leaders from staging more stupid actions.

It will take some time to calm Red Shirts down. After 5 years of continuous conflict Red Shirts are still in fear that their opposition will resort again to unconstitutional measures to topple the government they have elected, and naturally their paranoia level is still very high. Incidents such as those show the need that all sides have to start toning down, so that there is a chance for moving politics off the streets and back into parliament. Which not just means the Red Shirts, but also the Democrat Party and the military - whose close connections to groups such as Dr. Tul's group and other more darker groups are not exactly productive to a peaceful conflict resolution.

Thanks for the update, Nick.

[Throatwobbler]

One can only hope that the final stages will not be long in coming but I have to admit, if the viewpoints of some of the posters on here are taken as a microcosm of the Thai populaces thinking (though hopefully it is far, far away from being as nihilistic as that) the Reconstruction (read Reconcilliation) Stage is going to the toughest one to crack.........................

Thanks, and very interesting thoughts.

I often wonder about the extreme emotional involvement (and resulting extreme reaction to people that present a different view than theirs) of the mostly foreign posters here over this purely Thai socio-political conflict. I have difficulties to understand this.

Me, personally - i am glad that we finally had elections here, and that the result has so far been accepted by Thai society, and therefore giving a shimmer of hope that at least for some time things can remain relatively calm. If the Democrats would have won - it would not make much difference to me other that my long held theories on the political views of Thais would have been wrong and that i would have had to re-evaluate my analyses.

Why is it so difficult to for some to accept that Thais have made their own choice over who will govern their country?

The era of colonialism is over, the cold war is over, and it is bloody time that citizens of non-western countries are allowed as well to make their choice in how and by whom they want to be governed without being belittled as "stupid" or "uneducated" when they have chosen differently than some westerners or unelected local institutions such as the military would have hoped for.

Just beats me...

I think most people on here are glad the elections have taken place and are happy that the results are being abided by. Personally I think it is a bad result which will cost Thailand in the long run. However the Thais have spoken and I am happy for the current government to have its chance to govern.

I think what most people are unhappy about is the violence which you seem to be apologising for. Lets face it the reds have a long history of violence. Do you remeber the elderly PAD supporter dragged from his car and beaten to death by reds in Chiang mai a few years ago. Do you want these peopkle to be allowed to roam the streets, just tell people to keep away from them. It's this defence of these people which is sickening.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Throatwobbler

[geriatrickid]

Time to re-post the un-answered question.

There is no Democratic Student Group.

And you know this because...you couldn't find them by googling?

No, it is because no such group has come forward to say, yes that was us. More specifically, there is no such legitimate group.

Why then do you and others seek to avoid the obvious that these were 2 chaps intent on causing trouble.?

[Buchholz]

Time to re-post the un-answered question.

There is no Democratic Student Group.

And you know this because...you couldn't find them by googling?

No, it is because no such group has come forward to say, yes that was us. More specifically, there is no such legitimate group. ?

So you are saying you know every legitimate group in Thailand?

Thanks for the insight.

Whether there is or is not is, of course, less important to the aspect that they were assaulted by a group of self-appointed enforcers, the so-called democracy fighters, for doing less than they were doing to display their opinion.

.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Buchholz

[Throatwobbler]

Evil red shirts did beat people up. They knew exactly what they were doing. Why apologise for violence? Frankly it just makes me sick, and even more frankly, it's just stupid.

I do not think that i have condoned the violence, i have just explained the reasons behind. I have also used the term 'stupid' in one of my posts as well when describing the Red Shirt's reaction. What i have stated though is, that all evidence points to the two wreath layers having been agent provocateurs connected to the Democrat Party - also supported by the statement of the police as posted at the beginning of the threat stating that the two were possibly hired - which means that they were not exactly what can be considered innocent in the resulting confrontation.

But i have the impression that you and some others here just look for any reason to continue hating the Red Shirts. If you like to go around the world full of hate, then please, be free to do so (but you know what they say that hate does...).

I will just continue to go around trying to understand what goes on, and to speak with people involved on all sides of the conflict. I find this far more satisfying than hating this or the other party. But that is just me.

Sorry to be so frank.

Nick, I admire your patience in dealing with certain members of the forum in all and any of your postings. At least you try and offer an alternative viewpoint on events in todays Thailand despite the constant bellittling and obfuscation attempts that result.

It appears even the "more debate concious" and "reasonable" posters are falling by the wayside and being influenced by the herd mentality of the majority of posters, each trying to up the ante and winding each other up over how "outraged" they are by a certain issue (not just this one!) and in the event completely missing the underlying implications of that event.

I can only suggest that this behaviour is exhibiting the traits of the well known 7 stages of grief.

We've had the first stage, "shock and denial" probably exasperated by the hopeful (to the Democrat Supporters) polls leading up to the election suggesting a close run thing. The denial stage can be evidenced by the sheer number of times that TV Forum readers are reminded the the PTP did not win the overall majority of the peoples votes.

The second stage, pain and guilt, seems to be reflected in the increased number of posts in support of the Democrats and perhaps wondering if they could have got more of the wifes relatives to vote for the Dems..............

The Third Stage, Anger and (bartering.............?) we seem to be at, and will seem to remain at for quite a while yet, witness the posts railing at anything and everything the PTP Party (which has been in power around a week) is or is reported to be doing or thinking - the fourth stage, Depression, just seems to add to the Third Stage.

One can only hope that the final stages will not be long in coming but I have to admit, if the viewpoints of some of the posters on here are taken as a microcosm of the Thai populaces thinking (though hopefully it is far, far away from being as nihilistic as that) the Reconstruction (read Reconcilliation) Stage is going to the toughest one to crack.........................

As shown today the reds have no interest in reconcilliation. Anyone who has a differing point of view is to be taken care of. Think about the channel 7 reporter. I think you have a highly romanticised view of these people. Maybe playing out you fantasises of being a Che Guevara type fighting the evil rulers. I think you need to wake up and look at what is really happening. Any view that is dissenting of the reds or PTP wiil be taken care of. Think about the cultural revolution.

[nicknostitz]

One can only hope that the final stages will not be long in coming but I have to admit, if the viewpoints of some of the posters on here are taken as a microcosm of the Thai populaces thinking (though hopefully it is far, far away from being as nihilistic as that) the Reconstruction (read Reconcilliation) Stage is going to the toughest one to crack.........................

Thanks, and very interesting thoughts.

I often wonder about the extreme emotional involvement (and resulting extreme reaction to people that present a different view than theirs) of the mostly foreign posters here over this purely Thai socio-political conflict. I have difficulties to understand this.

Me, personally - i am glad that we finally had elections here, and that the result has so far been accepted by Thai society, and therefore giving a shimmer of hope that at least for some time things can remain relatively calm. If the Democrats would have won - it would not make much difference to me other that my long held theories on the political views of Thais would have been wrong and that i would have had to re-evaluate my analyses.

Why is it so difficult to for some to accept that Thais have made their own choice over who will govern their country?

The era of colonialism is over, the cold war is over, and it is bloody time that citizens of non-western countries are allowed as well to make their choice in how and by whom they want to be governed without being belittled as "stupid" or "uneducated" when they have chosen differently than some westerners or unelected local institutions such as the military would have hoped for.

Just beats me...

I think most people on here are glad the elections have taken place and are happy that the results are being abided by. Personally I think it is a bad result which will cost Thailand in the long run. However the Thais have spoken and I am happy for the current government to have its chance to govern.

I think what most people are unhappy about is the violence which you seem to be apologising for. Lets face it the reds have a long history of violence. Do you remeber the elderly PAD supporter dragged from his car and beaten to death by reds in Chiang mai a few years ago. Do you want these peopkle to be allowed to roam the streets, just tell people to keep away from them. It's this defence of these people which is sickening.

Well, i think you should read my posts properly - there is a difference between condoning and explaining.

Yes,. Chiangmai 51 has a history of violence, and i remember very well the gruesome murder. I also remember very well that it happened a few days after Yellow Shirts have attacked and shot up the soi of the Red Shirt community radio Station in Vibhavadi Soi 3. Not long after that another grenade went off killing more Yellow Shirts in Don Muang, and Yellow Shirts then slit the throat of one of their supporters and left him for dead in a ditch at Suvaranbhumi. After the Yellow Shirts retreated from the airports, a still unidentified corpse was found in the area they occupied in Don Muang airport. Etc.

I remember more incidents of violence by each side than i want to - many have happened in front of my eyes.

Point being - every side here has factions that have engaged in gruesome violence over the past years, attacked, and lynched opponents, or people they mistook as their opponents. When you make here a summary judgement over the Red Shirts as a whole regarding violence, you neglect that the Red Shirts are a very wide movement with many factions, ranging from very peaceful up to very violent. You also neclect that their opponents of the PAD, and their (former) backers from the Democrat Party and the military have had some equally violent factions (and there is far more evidence of the PAD's main leaders' direct involvement with those factions). This is a conflict fought very dirty, and unfortunately violence is a large part of it in which all sides engage in. But that is not reflected in your statement, and whenever i point this out i am accused of bias, regardless of the many images i and others have published proving this point.

When i see the usual suspects here decide to stop obfuscating the violence committed the Yellow Shirts and their factions, and of Look Nong of certain Democrat party figures, or of the military, then i may take their "moral outrage" displayed here over the violence of the Red Shirts as something that is not just a cheap attempt of propaganda for one side of this conflict.

[tlansford]

Unfortunately the report by the nation was not complete. The incident indeed took place. What though was not reported about here was what happened before the attempted laying of the wreath.

Several witnesses have stated that before the incident the two students have briefly conferred with a waiting Democrat Party MP before they have walked over to the gate to parliament. There is quite a bit of further evidence that this thing may have been a set up by agent provocateurs connected to the Democrat Party to provoke a violent reaction. Police is investigating the incident. Part reason of the over reaction of the Red Shirts was also that the wreath contained a large clock, and people feared that it may have contained a bomb. At the time most police officers were at the Farmers mob not far away from parliament, and could not get there on time to prevent the incident. Also most Red Shirt guards were not there yet.

The Red Shirts that were the last days at parliament were a mostly leaderless group. Over the last 3 days the Red Shirt guards have had a hard time to hold the protesters back. There were already several incidents that could have resulted in violence, if the Red Shirt guards would not have prevented their protesters from over-reacting, such as on the 22nd, when suddenly a small group of dog lovers protested in front of parliament, and ordinary Red Shirts believed that they may have been a group connected to Dr. Tul's group, which came a bit later (and was also protected by Red Shirt guards who kept the protesters on the other side of the road).

This was not an incident of organized violence, but originated from the fear of Red Shirts that the opposition may organize or support an attempt to block parliament again, as happened on Oct. 7, 2008. Unfortunately this paranoia was not just fueled by rumors but also by some local hardcore Red Shirt leaders, who are very disputed in the movement itself, and have been successfully prevented by moderate Red Shirt leaders from staging more stupid actions.

It will take some time to calm Red Shirts down. After 5 years of continuous conflict Red Shirts are still in fear that their opposition will resort again to unconstitutional measures to topple the government they have elected, and naturally their paranoia level is still very high. Incidents such as those show the need that all sides have to start toning down, so that there is a chance for moving politics off the streets and back into parliament. Which not just means the Red Shirts, but also the Democrat Party and the military - whose close connections to groups such as Dr. Tul's group and other more darker groups are not exactly productive to a peaceful conflict resolution.

That's not news, that an op/ed piece . Did you ever actually attend a journalism school?

First - Nick could give the class on this, and second - he has 2 high-quality books published on the street protests of the last 5 years.

[nicknostitz]

As shown today the reds have no interest in reconcilliation. Anyone who has a differing point of view is to be taken care of. Think about the channel 7 reporter. I think you have a highly romanticised view of these people. Maybe playing out you fantasises of being a Che Guevara type fighting the evil rulers. I think you need to wake up and look at what is really happening. Any view that is dissenting of the reds or PTP wiil be taken care of. Think about the cultural revolution.

What is really happening is that every side has engaged in attacks against the media.

Where were those statements by these organizations condemning attacks against the media, when last year Dr. Jirmsak Phinthong has on Channel 11 accused Dan Rivers to have had a sexual relationship with Jakrapop Penkair? Where were these organizations when Dan Rivers received death threats? Where were they when I was in 2008 falsely accused on the PAD stage to have accepted 10 million baht bribes from Thaksin, leading to all sorts of internet and real life threats against me on radical PAD boards? Where were they when the FCCT (Foreign Coressepondents Club of Thailand) was accused of lese majeste, leading to massive threats on royalist web forums against the accused board members, including requests to have their photos and addresses published so that they can be "sorted out"?

How many more examples shall i list? The list is endless.

[Buchholz]

As shown today the reds have no interest in reconcilliation. Anyone who has a differing point of view is to be taken care of. Think about the channel 7 reporter. I think you have a highly romanticised view of these people. Maybe playing out you fantasises of being a Che Guevara type fighting the evil rulers. I think you need to wake up and look at what is really happening. Any view that is dissenting of the reds or PTP wiil be taken care of. Think about the cultural revolution.

What is really happening is that every side has engaged in attacks against the media.

Where were those statements by these organizations condemning attacks against the media, when last year Dr. Jirmsak Phinthong has on Channel 11 accused Dan Rivers to have had a sexual relationship with Jakrapop Penkair? Where were these organizations when Dan Rivers received death threats? Where were they when I was in 2008 falsely accused on the PAD stage to have accepted 10 million baht bribes from Thaksin, leading to all sorts of internet and real life threats against me on radical PAD boards? Where were they when the FCCT (Foreign Coressepondents Club of Thailand) was accused of lese majeste, leading to massive threats on royalist web forums against the accused board members, including requests to have their photos and addresses published so that they can be "sorted out"?

How many more examples shall i list? The list is endless.

How about just listing when you or the others mentioned took action to address these alleged events?