Democrats Call For End To Intimidation Of Govt Critics By The Red Shirts

[ToffeEFCpower]

I thought it was the UDD/Red shirts job to reign terror and violence on the democratic government and it's supporters in the name of democracy?

After their resounding success, we are almost 2 months into the UDD reign with their political wing the PTP as government.

Now they rule the country why are they still being a nuisance to society and what democracy are they still fighting for?

[MikeOboe57]

Nice to see that the red shirt Sturmabteilung "protecting" Parliament enjoys so much warm sympathy and support in this forum.

My only hope is that they will sooner or later become such a nuisance and liability to "their" Government that they will face the same fate as the German original - a kick in the groin and being downgraded to a mere carneval group.

[Buchholz]

The small number of idiots among the red shirt movement who evidently can't control themselves are bound to make the headlines. Not the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of others who are either a part of the movement or who sympathize in general terms with its grievances.

The violent elements have been with this "movement" for over 4 years now.

When exactly can the "millions" gain control over them?

Instead of condemning them and disassociating from them and barring them, we get the Red Shirt "movement" going to great lengths to assist them, eg. lawyers, bail, verbal defense, etc.

.

- irrelevant overly-personal portion of reply omitted -

So, no expectation for any change that differs from their 4 years of repeated violence and that none of those in leadership will change their tactics.

Thanks for the clarification.

.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

He urged the public to keep a watch for any double standard regarding the government's treatment of red shirts.

This is rich coming from a democrat. The Dem's *obviously* never had a double standard regarding the yellow shirts

And the Nation continues to willfully <deleted>-up the facts as we all now know that they were not 2 students, and in fact only one was a (apparently) 40 year-old graduate...

Great reading "By The Nation on Sunday"

Time to head for the sun...

When you get back, I look forward to reading your post of a differing news sourced article or are you just going to continue the incessant whining over The Nation?

[Buchholz]

If any of the MPs is being threatened, then he or she should pursue charges. As Bucholz says, if there are no charges, then the allegations are unsubstantiated.

A misrepresentation of what I "say"... but unsurprising that you would get it wrong.

The contention of nick's allegations were that there was no corroboration or articles or photos or any other evidence of what he was purporting to have happened. Obviously, in this topic's case, we have ALL of those aspects.

Pressing formal charges was only a part of the actions that substantiate allegations, not the sum total.

That's what I say.

Perhaps until you pontificate on what others "say" more accurately, you should probably refrain from posting misrepresentations of what you allege others to "say."

Edited August 28, 2011 by Buchholz

[SICHONSTEVE]

Perhaps if the editorials made a little more effort to accentuate the fact that the violent element are actually a very small percentage of people who voted PTP, and as such, although the violent law breakers make headline news, their actions are not readily supported and are not representative of the majority of PTP voters.

May be if these editorials made more effort to explain the true detail and balance they may be perceived as being a little more constructive in the reconcliation process

This wasn't an editorial. It was a report of claims by the Democrats.

Was anything mentioned about "people who voted PTP"?

Maybe if the red shirts weren't trying to stifle free speech, there would be more progress with reconciliation.

Right!!! If 473 geo had made a little more effort in comprising his piece then it would have been more representative of what this report relates to and the issues raised in it. Instead he tries to justify those red-shirts actions by portraying them as a rogue element in an essentialy peaceful movement which is not at all what this is all about.

Prime minister Yingluck must stop this particular 'red shirt' faction from intimidating others from carrying out their right to protest at government actions they disagree with and rein them in if she believes in true democracy and freedoms of speech and permitting peaceful protest!!!

[hanuman1]

The violent elements have been with this "movement" for over 4 years now.

When exactly can the "millions" gain control over them?

Instead of condemning them and disassociating from them and barring them, we get the Red Shirt "movement" going to great lengths to assist them, eg. lawyers, bail, verbal defense, etc.

.

- irrelevant overly-personal portion of reply omitted -

So, no expectation for any change that differs from their 4 years of repeated violence and that none of those in leadership will change their tactics.

Thanks for the clarification.

.

Putting words into people's mouths again I see. Typical. I said nothing at all about the nature of expectations for the future. In fact I neglected to answer your question at all, for which I apologize. So I'll do it now. My answer is 'I don't know'. There. Sorry.

Now, I wonder if we can move on to the point I made earlier about your inconsistent posting vis-a-vis the 'redshirt policy towards jailed redshirts'. Just to refresh your memory, please find the portion of it that you edited out (possibly in contravention of forum rules) fully restored below:

Funny how your earlier posts made great capital in umpteen threads out of criticizing the fact that no reds would help bail out those in jail (look at how morally bankrupt they are - they don't even help their own kind out - etc etc ad nauseam), and now when they do you criticize them for assisting armed thugs.

Maybe you should have been praising the reds when they weren't offering to bail out those in jail, for keeping thugs off the streets.

Blind prejudice is winding your posts up in knots here, old chap.

[Buchholz]

The violent elements have been with this "movement" for over 4 years now.

When exactly can the "millions" gain control over them?

Instead of condemning them and disassociating from them and barring them, we get the Red Shirt "movement" going to great lengths to assist them, eg. lawyers, bail, verbal defense, etc.

.

- irrelevant overly-personal portion of reply omitted -

So, no expectation for any change that differs from their 4 years of repeated violence and that none of those in leadership will change their tactics.

Thanks for the clarification.

.

In fact I neglected to answer your question at all, for which I apologize. So I'll do it now. My answer is 'I don't know'. There. Sorry.

Apology accepted and thanks for the belated straight answer.

Hopefully future posts will avoid the irrelevant, overly-personal, off-topic comments and respond specifically to questions asked in the quote.

.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Buchholz

[tlansford]

The small number of idiots among the red shirt movement who evidently can't control themselves are bound to make the headlines. Not the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of others who are either a part of the movement or who sympathize in general terms with its grievances.

The violent elements have been with this "movement" for over 4 years now.

When exactly can the "millions" gain control over them?

Instead of condemning them and disassociating from them and barring them, we get the Red Shirt "movement" going to great lengths to assist them, eg. lawyers, bail, verbal defense, etc.

.

- irrelevant overly-personal portion of reply omitted -

So, no expectation for any change that differs from their 4 years of repeated violence and that none of those in leadership will change their tactics.

Thanks for the clarification.

.

IMO the red shirts have made more of an effort to control the violence from the militant parts of their organization than the PAD has done. And you already know that the Red Shirts are not one organization and never have been one organization. There have always been peaceful factions and radical factions. Some come from the poor north/northeast, others come from the middle class, wealthy, and educated.

As far as timelines go, it was exactly 3 years ago that Thailand was dealing with the violence of the yellow shirts and their **occupation** of the government house. Ah, but wait, since they were the "good guys", they were of course peacefully occupying the government building, were not armed at all, and never instigated any violence even when egged on by their main leaders...

In fact, 3 years ago the then opposition leader, Abhisit, 30 senators, and a general visited the PAD protesters in the Government house, at the time that the police had court orders to disperse the protesters, and were well on their way to doing so without violence, and after the visit the PAD burst out of the government house attacking the police and continued a violent occupation, which eventually led to Oct 7 and black Tuesday, the dissolution of the PPP and - lo and behold - Abhisit becoming PM...

[tlansford]

He urged the public to keep a watch for any double standard regarding the government's treatment of red shirts.

This is rich coming from a democrat. The Dem's *obviously* never had a double standard regarding the yellow shirts

And the Nation continues to willfully <deleted>-up the facts as we all now know that they were not 2 students, and in fact only one was a (apparently) 40 year-old graduate...

Great reading "By The Nation on Sunday"

Time to head for the sun...

When you get back, I look forward to reading your post of a differing news sourced article or are you just going to continue the incessant whining over The Nation?

If the nation intentionally screws up the "facts", then it is just BS "journalism"

[Buchholz]

The violent elements have been with this "movement" for over 4 years now.

When exactly can the "millions" gain control over them?

Instead of condemning them and disassociating from them and barring them, we get the Red Shirt "movement" going to great lengths to assist them, eg. lawyers, bail, verbal defense, etc.

.

- irrelevant overly-personal portion of reply omitted -

So, no expectation for any change that differs from their 4 years of repeated violence and that none of those in leadership will change their tactics.

Thanks for the clarification.

.

IMO the red shirts have made more of an effort to control the violence from the militant parts of their organization than the PAD has done. And you already know that the Red Shirts are not one organization and never have been one organization. There have always been peaceful factions and radical factions. Some come from the poor north/northeast, others come from the middle class, wealthy, and educated.

As far as timelines go, it was exactly 3 years ago that Thailand was dealing with the violence of the yellow shirts and their **occupation** of the government house. Ah, but wait, since they were the "good guys", they were of course peacefully occupying the government building, were not armed at all, and never instigated any violence even when egged on by their main leaders...

In fact, 3 years ago the then opposition leader, Abhisit, 30 senators, and a general visited the PAD protesters in the Government house, at the time that the police had court orders to disperse the protesters, and were well on their way to doing so without violence, and after the visit the PAD burst out of the government house attacking the police and continued a violent occupation, which eventually led to Oct 7 and black Tuesday, the dissolution of the PPP and - lo and behold - Abhisit becoming PM...

Nice side-tracked ramblings, but do you have any direct reply to the issues in the post you quoted in regards to what it said other than your purporting the yellows were worse at controlling trouble-makers?

Refer to the thread title if you're confused as to the topic.

For example, perhaps you could elucidate on what exactly the leaders have done to rein in their thugs over the past 4 years?

or, why has it obviously failed?

.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

He urged the public to keep a watch for any double standard regarding the government's treatment of red shirts.

This is rich coming from a democrat. The Dem's *obviously* never had a double standard regarding the yellow shirts

And the Nation continues to willfully <deleted>-up the facts as we all now know that they were not 2 students, and in fact only one was a (apparently) 40 year-old graduate...

Great reading "By The Nation on Sunday"

Time to head for the sun...

When you get back, I look forward to reading your post of a differing news sourced article or are you just going to continue the incessant whining over The Nation?

If the nation intentionally screws up the "facts", then it is just BS "journalism"

Is that from a news source or is just more of the same The Nation whining?

[hanuman1]

Funny how your earlier posts made great capital in umpteen threads out of criticizing the fact that no reds would help bail out those in jail (look at how morally bankrupt they are - they don't even help their own kind out - etc etc ad nauseam), and now when they do you criticize them for assisting armed thugs.

Maybe you should have been praising the reds when they weren't offering to bail out those in jail, for keeping thugs off the streets.

Blind prejudice is winding your posts up in knots here, old chap.

So, no expectation for any change that differs from their 4 years of repeated violence and that none of those in leadership will change their tactics.

Thanks for the clarification.

.

In fact I neglected to answer your question at all, for which I apologize. So I'll do it now. My answer is 'I don't know'. There. Sorry.

Funny how your earlier posts made great capital in umpteen threads out of criticizing the fact that no reds would help bail out those in jail (look at how morally bankrupt they are - they don't even help their own kind out - etc etc ad nauseam), and now when they do you criticize them for assisting armed thugs.

Maybe you should have been praising the reds when they weren't offering to bail out those in jail, for keeping thugs off the streets.

Blind prejudice is winding your posts up in knots here, old chap.

Apology accepted and thanks for the belated straight answer.

- snipped because I don't feel like answering the comment, so I'll invoke 'off-topic' to get out of it -

Not at all, old chap.

[473geo]

Perhaps if the editorials made a little more effort to accentuate the fact that the violent element are actually a very small percentage of people who voted PTP, and as such, although the violent law breakers make headline news, their actions are not readily supported and are not representative of the majority of PTP voters.

May be if these editorials made more effort to explain the true detail and balance they may be perceived as being a little more constructive in the reconcliation process

If i such a small percentage then why dont they arrest them and be done with it? Small percentage my arse. Goes all the way to the top. Red shirts dont have the capacity to act without orders

The red shirt faction needs to be brought into the political arena, without involvement in the reconculiation process they are more likely to become more frustrated violent faction

In my opinion the red shirts now have the voice in politics they require to allow them to move away from the violent acts label they currently labour to discard

The government must handle the situation carefully to achieve the reconciliation goal that is acceptable to all........while I agree violent acts should be condemmed by the government, to suggest arrest of the red shirts to solve the problem is at best a little short sighted.....education to follow an alternative route, which is now open is the key......

[SICHONSTEVE]

"Some come from the poor north/northeast, others come from the middle class, wealthy, and educated"

Some may come from the middle classes - but the wealthy??? and definitely none from the educated as if they are 'red shirt' supporters then they are not educated but un-informed and misguided, only!!!

[whybother]

The red shirt faction needs to be brought into the political arena, without involvement in the reconculiation process they are more likely to become more frustrated violent faction

In my opinion the red shirts now have the voice in politics they require to allow them to move away from the violent acts label they currently labour to discard

The government must handle the situation carefully to achieve the reconciliation goal that is acceptable to all........while I agree violent acts should be condemmed by the government, to suggest arrest of the red shirts to solve the problem is at best a little short sighted.....education to follow an alternative route, which is now open is the key......

The red shirts ARE in the political arena with many of their leaders now MPs, but that hasn't stopped them from their intimidation and violent acts.

Any red shirts shown to be intimidating or being violent towards others SHOULD be arrested. There is NO excuse for those sort of acts.

[TAWP]

The small number of idiots among the red shirt movement who evidently can't control themselves are bound to make the headlines. Not the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of others who are either a part of the movement or who sympathize in general terms with its grievances.

Indeed. Which is why it is so easy for the government to tell these fringe-elements to step back and respect the rest of the population, no?

[metisdead]

A post critical of the Thai courts has been removed as well as the replies to that post.

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[473geo]

The red shirt faction needs to be brought into the political arena, without involvement in the reconculiation process they are more likely to become more frustrated violent faction

In my opinion the red shirts now have the voice in politics they require to allow them to move away from the violent acts label they currently labour to discard

The government must handle the situation carefully to achieve the reconciliation goal that is acceptable to all........while I agree violent acts should be condemmed by the government, to suggest arrest of the red shirts to solve the problem is at best a little short sighted.....education to follow an alternative route, which is now open is the key......

The red shirts ARE in the political arena with many of their leaders now MPs, but that hasn't stopped them from their intimidation and violent acts.

Any red shirts shown to be intimidating or being violent towards others SHOULD be arrested. There is NO excuse for those sort of acts.

Read what the man said.....he suggested if the red shirts are a small percentage (of PTP)......'arrest them and be done with it'......if you think that is the answer....fine by me, your opinion not mine

As far as they ARE in the political arena yes, I think I made that point quite clear in the second line..........but do you feel they 'need' to be there as stated in the first line? I do....but again you are welcome to your opinion if you disgree.......

Let us see if the overall trend of 'violent' acts increase or diminish before we make irrational same day judgements on performance improvement shall we

[473geo]

The small number of idiots among the red shirt movement who evidently can't control themselves are bound to make the headlines. Not the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of others who are either a part of the movement or who sympathize in general terms with its grievances.

Indeed. Which is why it is so easy for the government to tell these fringe-elements to step back and respect the rest of the population, no?

Would that comment be based on the success in the south of previous governments?........is it really that easy?

[TAWP]

The small number of idiots among the red shirt movement who evidently can't control themselves are bound to make the headlines. Not the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of others who are either a part of the movement or who sympathize in general terms with its grievances.

Indeed. Which is why it is so easy for the government to tell these fringe-elements to step back and respect the rest of the population, no?

Would that comment be based on the success in the south of previous governments?........is it really that easy?

You are confused if you think [any] previous government had the southern insurgents as part of their overall electorial organisation. Unlike the Red Shirts, that clearly is part of the PT machine. Or are you pretending this isn't the case?

[473geo]

The small number of idiots among the red shirt movement who evidently can't control themselves are bound to make the headlines. Not the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of others who are either a part of the movement or who sympathize in general terms with its grievances.

Indeed. Which is why it is so easy for the government to tell these fringe-elements to step back and respect the rest of the population, no?

Would that comment be based on the success in the south of previous governments?........is it really that easy?

You are confused if you think [any] previous government had the southern insurgents as part of their overall electorial organisation. Unlike the Red Shirts, that clearly is part of the PT machine. Or are you pretending this isn't the case?

Violent factions in any areana are by their nature difficult to control.......history is littered with examples......however it is not impossible......there appears to be no voice in politics for the violent element in the south and the violence continues..........so let us give a chance to the new government to effect a solution, they have at least brought the 'red shirts' into the political arena and given them a voice......let us give them the opportunity to use it effectively for the good of the country

[rubl]

Perhaps if the editorials made a little more effort to accentuate the fact that the violent element are actually a very small percentage of people who voted PTP, and as such, although the violent law breakers make headline news, their actions are not readily supported and are not representative of the majority of PTP voters.

May be if these editorials made more effort to explain the true detail and balance they may be perceived as being a little more constructive in the reconcliation process

You are correct...

But it is "The Nation". Their objective is not truth, facts, nor balance.

Cheers - Tom

The red-shirt attacks may have been done by non-Pheu-Thai voters for all we know. It's just that the Dem's asked Dep-PM Chalerm to investigate and reign in the violent element within the red-shirts. With so many UDD leaders Pheu Thai MPs and the government being Pheu Thai led that makes sense.

Nowhere does it say that violent actions are either supported or representative for Pheu Thai voters. To ask editors to be more careful and stress some stuff seems like asking for excuses for accusations which are not even made. What makes 473geo even think a minority of Pheu Thai voters could be violent and you agreeing with him ?

[whybother]

Violent factions in any areana are by their nature difficult to control.......history is littered with examples......however it is not impossible......there appears to be no voice in politics for the violent element in the south and the violence continues..........so let us give a chance to the new government to effect a solution, they have at least brought the 'red shirts' into the political arena and given them a voice......let us give them the opportunity to use it effectively for the good of the country

The red shirts had a voice in parliament prior to this election. They also had a voice during their protests last year. But because this minority group didn't get their way, they decided to get violent.

Some of the violent groups in the south don't want a voice in the Thai parliament. They would much prefer a voice in the Malaysian parliament.

Violent groups have as much right to representation as peaceful groups. They don't have more right just because they are violent. They get to elect their representation just like everyone else. If they don't get the result they like, it doesn't give them an excuse to be violent. Otherwise there would be an awful lot of violent minority groups.

[473geo]

Tell me Rubl do you think...... 'intimidated by the red shirt supporters of the government'.......is reference to the democrat voters?

Edited August 28, 2011 by 473geo

[473geo]

Violent factions in any areana are by their nature difficult to control.......history is littered with examples......however it is not impossible......there appears to be no voice in politics for the violent element in the south and the violence continues..........so let us give a chance to the new government to effect a solution, they have at least brought the 'red shirts' into the political arena and given them a voice......let us give them the opportunity to use it effectively for the good of the country

The red shirts had a voice in parliament prior to this election. They also had a voice during their protests last year. But because this minority group didn't get their way, they decided to get violent.

Some of the violent groups in the south don't want a voice in the Thai parliament. They would much prefer a voice in the Malaysian parliament.

Violent groups have as much right to representation as peaceful groups. They don't have more right just because they are violent. They get to elect their representation just like everyone else. If they don't get the result they like, it doesn't give them an excuse to be violent. Otherwise there would be an awful lot of violent minority groups.

Thailand today.....making an effort......as I have said, let us see if the violence can be reduced and eventually eliminated.....for the good of Thailand.......let us draw comparrison after a couple of years and judge the government on their performance......success will be self evident

Edited August 28, 2011 by 473geo

[whybother]

Thailand today.....making an effort......as I have said, let us see if the violence can be reduced and eventually eliminated.....for the good of Thailand.......let us draw comparrison after a couple of years and judge the government on their performance......success will be self evident

Agree with that in reference to the south.

There is no reason for the red shirts to be violent now given they got what they wanted.

[rubl]

Tell me Rubl do think...... 'intimidated by the red shirt supporters of the government'.......is reference to the democrat voters?

It's you who started with

"Perhaps if the editorials made a little more effort to accentuate the fact that the violent element are actually a very small percentage of people who voted PTP, and as such, although the violent law breakers make headline news, their actions are not readily supported and are not representative of the majority of PTP voters."

I have no opinion as to how those violent red-shirts voted. With about 70 - 80% of the electorate actually having voted (I think) and the Electorate being 30 out of 65 million Thai, there is a reasonable statistical chance that those red-shirt either didn't vote or voted for another party. (add: with color of shirt as weight factor the chances of having voted Pheu Thai increase significantly, statistically speaking )

Still remains that you started suggesting these red-shirts might be part of the Pheu Thai voters, if only a very small part. Now why would you think so?

Edited August 28, 2011 by rubl

[OzMick]

Violent factions in any areana are by their nature difficult to control.......history is littered with examples......however it is not impossible......there appears to be no voice in politics for the violent element in the south and the violence continues..........so let us give a chance to the new government to effect a solution, they have at least brought the 'red shirts' into the political arena and given them a voice......let us give them the opportunity to use it effectively for the good of the country

The red shirts had a voice in parliament prior to this election. They also had a voice during their protests last year. But because this minority group didn't get their way, they decided to get violent.

Some of the violent groups in the south don't want a voice in the Thai parliament. They would much prefer a voice in the Malaysian parliament.

Violent groups have as much right to representation as peaceful groups. They don't have more right just because they are violent. They get to elect their representation just like everyone else. If they don't get the result they like, it doesn't give them an excuse to be violent. Otherwise there would be an awful lot of violent minority groups.

Thailand today.....making an effort......as I have said, let us see if the violence can be reduced and eventually eliminated.....for the good of Thailand.......let us draw comparrison after a couple of years and judge the government on their performance......success will be self evident

".......let us see if the violence can be reduced and eventually eliminated.........." The tried, tested and found to work method is for the police to arrest them, and the courts to incarcerate them. You might consider that "short-sighted", but it is a view probably shared by those innocent citizens who have the misfortune to be assaulted or injured, and the relatives of those killed. Of course here it is different, because the thugs have friends in government, who have a relative as chief of police, so we all should just get used to it and hope it will stop in a couple of years. Right.

[animatic]

It may or may not be a small element, but they don't seem to understand that if they can't control their small elements when they are being VERY public, then it reflects DIRECTLY onto PTP and the elected Red Leadership. or LACK of leadership.

Leadership implies they are leading and their followers follow, if that is not the case then they have just started a movement and lost control, or don't care to control it properly. THAT is not leadership.