Starting A Fish Farm

[ozzydom]

  On 9/11/2011 at 10:17 AM, tingtong said:

OK, clearer now, so no direct contact to company.

If i look at the sack, there is a phone number though...assume if i call up that, they suppose to refer me to their regional/tambon contact then?

Is that correct?

I really not sure how CPF is being such a huge player in contract farming ( not only in fish, i mean in all the things) but having such a tainted reputation about it, still, lots of ppl seem to work with them.

But as was discussed before, it should be good to avoid contract fish farming, and stay sort of independent.

Here in the NE CPF is the major player in the industry,they own or control the larger farms including the Mekong cage farms,the feed supply and the markets.

But there are many fingers in the chain of supply,The grower who contract grows,the wholesaler who delivers the fish in live tanks to the various markets and then the reseller at the market.All add a margin to the price.

All of which is great for we independant farms. We arrange small discounts on our feed (5-10 baht a bag )have no labour costs, over the years we have picked up tricks to lower cost of production then we set our farm gate price at 10% under the market resellers which at the moment is 90Baht kg.

This results in a very good profit margin for us and allows us to discount on large orders which resellers on their 10 baht kg margin cannot do.

[tingtong]

Lets see:

Finding the feed seem the be the easiest of all tasks. Currently i have Cargill's 32% protein feed, what cost me 520THB/20kg...seem to be a bit too much, i guess. The shop said that at about 50 sacks/1 ton quantity they can offer around 20THB discount, about in line with what you were saying.

Not that in the moment i will buy that much. Still i will search around a bit, to find this tambon level selling, as well to get more price comparison.

Still i think i can manage to get fingerlings for about 50 satang probably from a source i bought this current 500...that isnt 35 like RBH mentioned, but not that far out, and 10-20.000 wont be anywhere near 150-200.000, so, i think that should be fair, or so i feel.

But i still dont have a clue where to find a wholesaler/buyer for my fish. Technically i think that is the major hold back to go ahead with 10-20.000, and give it a serious trial.

Where/when i drive i havent notice any fish farm, nor the local feed stores seem to know any contact for anything, matter of fact rather annoying, as i would like a few small chicks ( the feathery one, for no misunderstanding) too, or maybe ducks...they sell the feeds for them, but not one seem to be able to point a real direction, only generals...can buy in Khon Kaen, for example...but nothing more, like where there, so, might as well be a myth to me, maybe true, maybe not.

Surprising, that living in a village, to say out on the sticks, and no place where to go to buy livestock. Or there is but no one knows. Or it is a deep secret that they dont want to share with someone like my wife?

I live in Thailand for a while, but they still keep surprising me with new and new things as my life change and different needs arise. Amazing, annoying and entertaining the same time.

[RedBullHorn]

  On 9/11/2011 at 11:29 AM, ozzydom said:

  On 9/11/2011 at 10:17 AM, tingtong said:

OK, clearer now, so no direct contact to company.

If i look at the sack, there is a phone number though...assume if i call up that, they suppose to refer me to their regional/tambon contact then?

Is that correct?

I really not sure how CPF is being such a huge player in contract farming ( not only in fish, i mean in all the things) but having such a tainted reputation about it, still, lots of ppl seem to work with them.

But as was discussed before, it should be good to avoid contract fish farming, and stay sort of independent.

Here in the NE CPF is the major player in the industry,they own or control the larger farms including the Mekong cage farms,the feed supply and the markets.

But there are many fingers in the chain of supply,The grower who contract grows,the wholesaler who delivers the fish in live tanks to the various markets and then the reseller at the market.All add a margin to the price.

All of which is great for we independant farms. We arrange small discounts on our feed (5-10 baht a bag )have no labour costs, over the years we have picked up tricks to lower cost of production then we set our farm gate price at 10% under the market resellers which at the moment is 90Baht kg.

This results in a very good profit margin for us and allows us to discount on large orders which resellers on their 10 baht kg margin cannot do.

10% under market retailer's price, that's the margin of a wholesaler... great when you could be grower (farmgate) and wholersaler ...you're in control sir !

[RedBullHorn]

  On 9/11/2011 at 2:05 PM, tingtong said:

Lets see:

Finding the feed seem the be the easiest of all tasks. Currently i have Cargill's 32% protein feed, what cost me 520THB/20kg...seem to be a bit too much, i guess. The shop said that at about 50 sacks/1 ton quantity they can offer around 20THB discount, about in line with what you were saying.

Not that in the moment i will buy that much. Still i will search around a bit, to find this tambon level selling, as well to get more price comparison.

Still i think i can manage to get fingerlings for about 50 satang probably from a source i bought this current 500...that isnt 35 like RBH mentioned, but not that far out, and 10-20.000 wont be anywhere near 150-200.000, so, i think that should be fair, or so i feel.

But i still dont have a clue where to find a wholesaler/buyer for my fish. Technically i think that is the major hold back to go ahead with 10-20.000, and give it a serious trial.

Where/when i drive i havent notice any fish farm, nor the local feed stores seem to know any contact for anything, matter of fact rather annoying, as i would like a few small chicks ( the feathery one, for no misunderstanding) too, or maybe ducks...they sell the feeds for them, but not one seem to be able to point a real direction, only generals...can buy in Khon Kaen, for example...but nothing more, like where there, so, might as well be a myth to me, maybe true, maybe not.

Surprising, that living in a village, to say out on the sticks, and no place where to go to buy livestock. Or there is but no one knows. Or it is a deep secret that they dont want to share with someone like my wife?

I live in Thailand for a while, but they still keep surprising me with new and new things as my life change and different needs arise. Amazing, annoying and entertaining the same time.

The person selling you the feed WOULD KNOW, you need to tackle him/her for that info/ phone number... trust me ! They know ! Try sweet talking them with deal of buying feed IN BULK long term or fingerlings supply, what ever works, know your game. Not necessary to commit, just a strategy, i've done that ! and it works, i got 3 phone numbers at that time ... then i disappeared !

P.S. No need to drive around, Have a banquet or drinking session and invite lots of villagers, neighbours...pop the question ! Someone would tell over the drinks

[tingtong]

fine, will try harder to find some contacts

[RedBullHorn]

you won't see ponds driving around because like mine, most are hidden out of sight, located somewhere in the paddy field, i turned 11 rai of paddy field into ponds and piggeries To the dismay of the grandmother-in-law

[tingtong]

fair, after all our little farm is also not on a main road, but between paddy and sugarcane fields, out of he village, no driving by chances.

[ozzydom]

  On 9/11/2011 at 11:40 PM, tingtong said:

fair, after all our little farm is also not on a main road, but between paddy and sugarcane fields, out of he village, no driving by chances.

We were fortunate in that our land is in a group of villages and only 75 metres from a main road so some signage and directions that even Thais can follow sorted that possible problem.

We also have numerous small food sellers that we supply daily and for a small discount we were allowed to put up "Pla Nin supplied by ........."signs at these outlets.

We used to have a couple of months where we were sold out of fish, but a few ads on the local radio station when we resumed selling brought our customers back.

This year I have changed the system and installed a nursery pond which is kept stocked with fry so that as a pond is caught out we can restock with advanced fingerlings which I anticipate will cut the time period from pond stocking to ready for sale to about 5 months.

Having available water for regular water changes and top up plus aeration will ,according to my experiments allow us two years between pond emptying and cleaning.

[RedBullHorn]

I'm on the same path too, always keep a spare pond, new fingerlings are ordered and release into it a month prior to harvesting the rest, and then re-distribute out the rest of the ponds once it is prepared.

[tingtong]

hi

met the local amphur "expert" and....learnt nothing, really.

she has little idea about the things, but for her support, i have to mention, so had the other staff with other animals, like the guy i aksed where he thinks we could get about 10 laying chickens...not a vlue, the good thai way. but he printed out something from the net, yes hi tech is taking over the amphur too, that a laying chicken can grow to 2.2 kg and such and such...but to whick market to go to buy it? no clue.

anyway, fish expert girl gave a number to a local farm, looked up...the guy has quite big operation there, sellign fingerlings of different fishes.

he really tried to talk me out of catfish, though he also have for sale 3-4 inch fingerlings for 1 baht each...that about what i got at my door for 500 as a deal ( not 10.000-20.000) and i didnt have to drive 50km to it each way.

He also sells tilapia, about 1 inch or bit bigger? for similar price, and was really into convincing me that i should have them, as it is easier, and cheaper to grow...

said i could stock about 4 tilapia/m2...dont know if that is right or wrong.

Both shared the same on wholesaler, they dont know, or dont want to know.

The fish farm guy said he can sell all his fish retail to locals, they come to him, better price.

The expert girl obviously not that epxert to have much real biz. insight...it is nice from her to show up once in a week in the office, though that is little, but i see that is too much even, since little use.

so, what next?

[ozzydom]

tingtong, I dont know who you are referring to as the "amphur expert"

is she from the Agricultural Dept or Fisheries Dept ?

The fisheries Dept has offices and fish farms scattered around Thailand, the senior staff have some knowledge as the course they do is taught by a western marine biologist.

BUT, as with everything you are told, check then double check before you act on any advice you receive.

The fisheries department try hard to be helpful and are a good source of fish farming literature, (Udon Thani in particular ).

They also sell fry at competitive prices,

If you ever contemplate Pla Nin,never buy these from farms as you mention in your post No 40 or from Fisheries dept for that matter unless you want thousands of baby Pla Nin in your ponds.

[RedBullHorn]

  On 9/12/2011 at 10:04 AM, tingtong said:

hi

met the local amphur "expert" and....learnt nothing, really.

she has little idea about the things, but for her support, i have to mention, so had the other staff with other animals, like the guy i aksed where he thinks we could get about 10 laying chickens...not a vlue, the good thai way. but he printed out something from the net, yes hi tech is taking over the amphur too, that a laying chicken can grow to 2.2 kg and such and such...but to whick market to go to buy it? no clue.

anyway, fish expert girl gave a number to a local farm, looked up...the guy has quite big operation there, sellign fingerlings of different fishes.

he really tried to talk me out of catfish, though he also have for sale 3-4 inch fingerlings for 1 baht each...that about what i got at my door for 500 as a deal ( not 10.000-20.000) and i didnt have to drive 50km to it each way.

He also sells tilapia, about 1 inch or bit bigger? for similar price, and was really into convincing me that i should have them, as it is easier, and cheaper to grow...

said i could stock about 4 tilapia/m2...dont know if that is right or wrong.

Both shared the same on wholesaler, they dont know, or dont want to know.

The fish farm guy said he can sell all his fish retail to locals, they come to him, better price.

The expert girl obviously not that epxert to have much real biz. insight...it is nice from her to show up once in a week in the office, though that is little, but i see that is too much even, since little use.

so, what next?

Sell off and move to another province

[ozzydom]

  On 9/12/2011 at 12:46 PM, RedBullHorn said:

  On 9/12/2011 at 10:04 AM, tingtong said:

hi

met the local amphur "expert" and....learnt nothing, really.

she has little idea about the things, but for her support, i have to mention, so had the other staff with other animals, like the guy i aksed where he thinks we could get about 10 laying chickens...not a vlue, the good thai way. but he printed out something from the net, yes hi tech is taking over the amphur too, that a laying chicken can grow to 2.2 kg and such and such...but to whick market to go to buy it? no clue.

anyway, fish expert girl gave a number to a local farm, looked up...the guy has quite big operation there, sellign fingerlings of different fishes.

he really tried to talk me out of catfish, though he also have for sale 3-4 inch fingerlings for 1 baht each...that about what i got at my door for 500 as a deal ( not 10.000-20.000) and i didnt have to drive 50km to it each way.

He also sells tilapia, about 1 inch or bit bigger? for similar price, and was really into convincing me that i should have them, as it is easier, and cheaper to grow...

said i could stock about 4 tilapia/m2...dont know if that is right or wrong.

Both shared the same on wholesaler, they dont know, or dont want to know.

The fish farm guy said he can sell all his fish retail to locals, they come to him, better price.

The expert girl obviously not that epxert to have much real biz. insight...it is nice from her to show up once in a week in the office, though that is little, but i see that is too much even, since little use.

so, what next?

Sell off and move to another province

Chiang Rai sounds like a nice place to set up.

[tingtong]

Ozzydom, i do have 1000s of baby pla nin in the moment in the lakes...that is what i like to change to a more uniform fish farming.

The good part of the current situation is the zero input, apart from the fish bait what i fish for. Too small( most catch) goes back, good enough size stays and get eaten by wife. Fun, but no income.

The amphur "expert" : if you followed the comments somewhere prior i mentioned that the amphur has someone assigned to help about fish questions ( and for that matter a few other members for various other livestock). Well, she had some brochure to hand out...and pretty much that what she had.

If tilapia, then probably i will take the drive to Nam Sai and buy from them, seem more trustworthy about supplying all males than the not too local fish farmer guy i visited today.

RBH: why i respect and listen to most of your advice, i wont take this last one

While it would be common sense to try to use the lakes for something commercial, and not my recreation fishing only, it isnt life or death, so, we stay.

[ozzydom]

tt, it sounds like they are the local Ag dept extension people, many have no qualifications other than being a friend of a friend.

Cats really require a purpose built pond to aid in management and catching,whereas Tilapia are a bit easier because they only need to be caught as required with a cast net.

If your Tilapia dont sell they just keep growing and adding value.

Yes IMO Nam Sai fry are the best available.

You will need to pump any pond you intend stocking and poison to get rid of any small PN and wild fish.

[tingtong]

what do you mean on poison exactly?

is that to have effect to some extend on the fishes later too?

how long have to drain the lake before can be cleared approx in days?

[RedBullHorn]

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:01 AM, RedBullHorn said:

Hi tingtong,

Let me clear this for you. If you notice again on my post i stated that i used up 1920 sack of feed. My long standing FCR achievement ( Feed Convertion Ratio) is 1.16:1 is only achievable if i use premium grade pellet feed, inferior grade i used long time ago will achieve 1.25:1 and the cheapest grade available when i first started out achieved 1.33-1.35:1

All #2 size pellet have specs printed on the side of the bag and all said #2 is 30% protein level, the different being premium grade uses more fishmeal to produce protein while inferior grades use lesser fishmeal and more poultry feathers to produce protein.

As you can see the premium grade give better weight gain although it is expensive but in monetary terms more profit/kg.

I harvested 33'205 kg at the expense of 1920 sack of feed, so i round off to 33 tons when i posted on the topic... 33'000 divided by 1920 = 17.1875

mean a sack of 20kg feed will give the achievable FCR of 17.18 kg. In FCR Ratio Term is 20 divided by 17.18 = 1.1641

A fish will need 1.16 kg of food to produce 1kg of flesh. Hence FCR 1.16:1

My sizes of fishes in percentage (estimate) is roughly 3 fishes/kg 15%, 4 fishes/kg 35%, 5 fishes/kg 30%, 6 and 7 fishes/kg make up the rest and about 0.05% is undersize, the size of 10 fishes/kg (100gm)

In term of P & L - My average feed is120 sacks for10'000 "grow out" hence 120 times 16 = 1920 sacks.

Average ฿510 per sack ( combining #1 and #2 feed, i secured a deal for Lab Inter- Fish First #1, 32% feed at ฿450/sack back then )

is 510 divided by 20kg/sack = ฿25.50 /kg, so 25 times FCR1.16 = ฿29.58, i then rounded of to ฿30, i sold at ฿46/kg

therefore my profit is ฿15/kg. This is not my nett yet as i still have to minus other variable cost like meds supplement, salt, Chlorine, Cyanide, electricity, the guard dog's Pedigree meals, harvesting labour, pond clearing celebration, pig heads offers for rites, and all the Chang and Lao Khao back debt at my neighbourhood store

Lastly, no wholesalers want to buy half a kg size Pla Duk Big Oui, small volume of 1% in the harvest is generally not a problem, but they will buy more than half kg size up to a kg size for Pla Duk Lart Sia. ฿1 per fish is the worse case senario, like price feed up and reverses of the supply and demand.

  On 9/12/2011 at 2:02 PM, tingtong said:

what do you mean on poison exactly?

is that to have effect to some extend on the fishes later too?

how long have to drain the lake before can be cleared approx in days?

Please reread my post and pay attention to details

No, it totally evaporate under the sun within 5 sunny days, it's not easy to obtain, you need to register with the local fish association to buy it, although some big feed shop do sell them, only to known client. It's not cheap, cost 220-250 THB/kg. Half rai, water at below ankle deep uses 1-2kg during pond preparation.

[tingtong]

Thanks RBH.

again, some things missing to this:

1. registration.

2. 5 sunny days

but i guess i can work on some point #1 some, and can only hope for #2...nearly 3 weeks now with every day raining...

[RedBullHorn]

It's poison so it is a controlled item.

It totally evaporate under the SUN within 5-7 days leaving no residue.

I'll stop here, courier 2 craigs of Chang if you need more information

[tingtong]

any alternative to use when like now, the weather is not sunny, nor can expect a week straight sunshine in the coming month?

[RedBullHorn]

Reading the sky and observing weather patterns and planning ahead are things within the learning curve for a successful fish farmer

[tingtong]

well, the weather pattern:

1st choice: since the last 22 days every day rained, good chance to think it will rain today too, even though the morning looks sunny now.

2nd choice: since the last 22 days rained, maybe the water starting to run out up there, the morning is sunny, let start to drain the lake.

3rd choice: turn on the TV, they know best

4th choice: send wife to temple, she can pray for a dry week starting from this morning, Buddha always listens ( just not always happen what you ask)

5th choice: at least the morning sunny, enough time to cut the grasses a bit, rainy or not later.

off to start choice#5, while thinking over the rest.

[RedBullHorn]

Usually the PLAN is before the start of a new season, rather than "during", especially so ahead of the monsoon season.

[tingtong]

the forecast biz. worked out fine, cut some grass, had plenty of rain afterward...

understand what you say, RBH, and i know we are still in the rainy season, probably till november in my area.

however this is the time when i am at home, and when we should start with some sort of set up.

then till April i will work abroad, but wife can feed the fish, np, for the first 2-3 month worth of food we can buy, then she can either buy 1 bag a time or get somehow delivered, little matter.

i should be back home in a good time to summerize the result, calculate FCR, etc, and decide how to continue.

if i like what i see, might be able to skip a half yr from work, do the whole thing all over, see the rice from planted till harvest, etc.

i wish i could stay, but my work is not in the Kingdom, and in the moment it is only me who makes the income in the family...since not from a rich background none of me or wife, nor i am an older guy who had a lifetime to save, and not from a country where salaries used to be good, i have little choice but divide my time between family and Thailand, and work outside.

Of course i would be most happy to turn this around a bit, thus the trial of fish growing, for one.

Our needs arent big, and as long as we can derive a salary like income for my wife work, we are content, if to build up something a 1/4 of your operation, we have a living.

[andycrosby]

I know I will get some stick for this but I have a pond I tip a wheel barrow of chicken poo in it when I can remember. It pays for most of my beer. I am Not a fish farmer, but my pond pays its way. I have never brought a bag of food and never had an problems. Catfish eat anything you give. Just a note from the other end of the scale... LOL

[IsaanAussie]

  On 9/13/2011 at 4:34 PM, andycrosby said:

I know I will get some stick for this but I have a pond I tip a wheel barrow of chicken poo in it when I can remember. It pays for most of my beer. I am Not a fish farmer, but my pond pays its way. I have never brought a bag of food and never had an problems. Catfish eat anything you give. Just a note from the other end of the scale... LOL

I'll share the whipping post with you Andy. I have catfish in my pond and the only thing they get is a bit of the waste water from the pig sty and the spoilt pig food, both as and when available. Hardly going to break any production records but produces a good size fish. Will get into it more seriously one day.

[tingtong]

i know it could be done that way too.

as for now, at least i know where to buy fish feed already, while have no clue yet, - and that seem to include the locals too, for my surprise-, where to find small chicks or ducks.

Other thing:

local "expert girl" says she knows nothing about Cyanide...she says cleaning the pond is/can be done with phoon khao, about 70-80kg/rai...

is this above correct? can do the job, or needs cyanide too?

[RedBullHorn]

"Expert" she is, more like a beginner~

LIMING IS A PROCESS DONE TO CORRECT SOIL AND WATER PH ONLY !

If i need 70-80kg of lime per rai, that pond must be so contaminated. Buy a kit for testing soil PH, available at plant nursery or major animal feed store. There is no required standard on how much to use, too much lime it will burn the fingerlings, it will lose all it barbs burns the lip and lower body....and also

Just dust lightly around the inner dikes of the pond, i do 20-25kg for a half rai pond, fill the pond up to depth 1.5m, then use a empty bottle tied sideway tilted down to a pole and collect water sample at bed depth for PH testing. After that dump a sack of salt (for half rai, more if 1 rai), distributed evenly into the water to correct the PH level.

To eradicate "well leveled" pond of fishes that can't/difficult to be caught by netting, you still need poison. Not much problem if the pond is slope to drainage level.

eDb7ezfYNJg

[RedBullHorn]

Tried embedding a video, didn't work, it use too...

Panorama view of my 11 rai integrated farm (piggery and Clarias catfishes)

[RedBullHorn]

  On 9/13/2011 at 4:34 PM, andycrosby said:

I know I will get some stick for this but I have a pond I tip a wheel barrow of chicken poo in it when I can remember. It pays for most of my beer. I am Not a fish farmer, but my pond pays its way. I have never brought a bag of food and never had an problems. Catfish eat anything you give. Just a note from the other end of the scale... LOL

  On 9/14/2011 at 1:11 AM, IsaanAussie said:

  On 9/13/2011 at 4:34 PM, andycrosby said:

I know I will get some stick for this but I have a pond I tip a wheel barrow of chicken poo in it when I can remember. It pays for most of my beer. I am Not a fish farmer, but my pond pays its way. I have never brought a bag of food and never had an problems. Catfish eat anything you give. Just a note from the other end of the scale... LOL

I'll share the whipping post with you Andy. I have catfish in my pond and the only thing they get is a bit of the waste water from the pig sty and the spoilt pig food, both as and when available. Hardly going to break any production records but produces a good size fish. Will get into it more seriously one day.

Done that too 12 years ago, that is when catfishes wasn't the lead income provider, RIR eggs layers was. But still need to supplement fishes' feed and it took 6 months to harvest using size 3''-4'' fingerlings.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/249638-my-catfish-farm-operation/page__view__findpost__p__2821281