Israel's Netanyahu says Palestinian statehood bid at UN will fail

[Jingthing]

BS. I have made it clear that everyone is entitled to their opinion. But if people's opinions are based on totally false assumptions (such as the Palestinians are modern Philistines) then their blatant errors should be pointed out.

[Wallaby]

BS. I have made it clear that everyone is entitled to their opinion. But if people's opinions are based on totally false assumptions (such as the Palestinians are modern Philistines) then their blatant errors should be pointed out.

That's the point. His opinion is NOT based on that. He has already said his opinion is based on recent events. They aren't false assumptions, the majority of the world don't care who did what way back when. They base it on recent events, and on that basis they want Israel to pull it's head in.

Pro Israel is a minority. Deal with it.

[Jingthing]

Pro Israel is a minority. Deal with it.

I am dealing with it. That doesn't mean supporting the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state is wrong though.

[Wallaby]

Pro Israel is a minority. Deal with it.

I am dealing with it. That doesn't mean supporting the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state is wrong though.

You won't get an argument from me on that. Yes of course they have a right to exist. I don't think anyone on here would say different.

[Jingthing]

Pro Israel is a minority. Deal with it.

I am dealing with it. That doesn't mean supporting the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state is wrong though.

You won't get an argument from me on that. Yes of course they have a right to exist. I don't think anyone on here would say different.

I wouldn't speak for everyone here if I were you. But I can say confidently the majority of Palestinians would say differently. That's a problem for bringing peace, wouldn't you say?

[Wallaby]

Pro Israel is a minority. Deal with it.

I am dealing with it. That doesn't mean supporting the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state is wrong though.

You won't get an argument from me on that. Yes of course they have a right to exist. I don't think anyone on here would say different.

I wouldn't speak for everyone here if I were you. But I can say confidently the majority of Palestinians would say differently. That's a problem for bringing peace, wouldn't you say?

Ok you got me there, I shouldn't have said 'everyone'.

Yes I agree it is a problem in bringing peace. Again 'most' would agree, however the Israeli 'passive' aggression by building settlements and over reacting to incidents certainly doesn't help the Israeli cause. Whatever they have been doing has NOT worked so wouldn't you think it time they looked for alternatives?

It is my view that if you give Palestinians a country/state to call home, a sense of belonging, ownership, a sense of identity then you may find their struggle will change to be more internal instead of blaming Israel for everthing.

One never knows.

[Jingthing]

Yes I agree it is a problem in bringing peace. Again 'most' would agree, however the Israeli 'passive' aggression by building settlements and over reacting to incidents certainly doesn't help the Israeli cause. Whatever they have been doing has NOT worked so wouldn't you think it time they looked for alternatives?

I agree. Netanyahu is horrible.

It is my view that if you give Palestinians a country/state to call home, a sense of belonging, ownership, a sense of identity then you may find their struggle will change to be more internal instead of blaming Israel for everthing.

I'm not that optimistic. Israel needs them to recognize her existence, needs them to give up the right of return demand, and she ALSO needs security measures in place before DIRECT negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians will have any hope of really succeeding. This UN thing, again, a circus, it is not bringing two states.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[Scott]

A number of posts have been deleted. Further incitement of people by baiting them about their religion will result in a formal warning.

This thread is about a topic. Requesting or guessing about personal information will not be tolerated.

[Jingthing]

He is also a lot more qualified to have a neutral opion than someone who knows everything about the conflict.

How can someone who says that the Philistines were Palestinians and presumes to lecture others about it claim to know anything about the conflict of any consequence?

More absurdly, a lack of interest in knowing that Israel returned Gaza to Arabs in 2005 because that info was too old. That's directly relevant to today's events and how the radical, prickly Hamas Gaza government came to be.

Israeli soldiers forcefully evicting Jewish settlers in Gaza as a peace gesture.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[up-country_sinclair]

I am pro-Israel (its continued existence as a Jewish state

Do you want Israel to be a Jewish state or a democratic state, because as even the Israeli government knows, you're not going to be able to have both in the very near future.

[Jingthing]

I am pro-Israel (its continued existence as a Jewish state

Do you want Israel to be a Jewish state or a democratic state, because as even the Israeli government knows, you're not going to be able to have both in the very near future.

That's a silly question. Of course I WANT democracy in Israel, or anywhere. If you are talking about creeping theocracy in Israel, I totally oppose it. However, I would still support their right to exist if that's where it's going. In my view, Jewish state simply means a nation state homeland for the Jewish PEOPLE.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[dave111223]

There are lots of Jews that support Israel and there are lots that do not. Trying to imply that someone only supports them because of their religion is ridiculous.

My point was "are there any non-Jews supporting Israel's position?" not "are there any Jews not supporting Israel's position"

Edited September 20, 2011 by dave111223

[Steely Dan]

I am pro-Israel (its continued existence as a Jewish state

Do you want Israel to be a Jewish state or a democratic state, because as even the Israeli government knows, you're not going to be able to have both in the very near future.

So it's ok to have 51 Muslim states occupying a land mass over 650 times that of Israel, but not one Jewish state in the world? The demographics of those who consider themselves to be that invented entity Palestinian only number what they do because of the deliberate cynical policy of surrounding Arab states not to give them citizenship for 3 generations but to use them as a tool to eliminate Israel.

P.S And the significance of Israel being a Jewish state is because it is precisely that which will guarantee democratic secular rights as the Jewish religion (and Christianity) has modernized enough to tolerate others.

[Jingthing]

There are lots of Jews that support Israel and there are lots that do not. Trying to imply that someone only supports them because of their religion is ridiculous.

My point was "are there any non-Jews supporting Israel's position?" not "are there any Jews not supporting Israel's position"

Here is your answer, dude. The USA has about 2 percent Jews.

Support for Israel in U.S. at 63%, Near Record High

http://www.gallup.com/poll/126155/support-israel-near-record-high.aspx

Next ...

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[Scott]

This topic is not about the members posting. Doing so is off-topic and baiting.

More posts have been deleted.

[up-country_sinclair]

I am pro-Israel (its continued existence as a Jewish state

Do you want Israel to be a Jewish state or a democratic state, because as even the Israeli government knows, you're not going to be able to have both in the very near future.

That's a silly question. Of course I WANT democracy in Israel, or anywhere. If you are talking about creeping theocracy in Israel, I totally oppose it. However, I would still support their right to exist if that's where it's going. In my view, Jewish state simply means a nation state homeland for the Jewish PEOPLE.

1. It may make you feel better to label something as "silly" just because you don't understand it, but that really doesn't further the discussion, does it? You might consider asking for a clarification or further explanation in the future

2. A Jewish state in which Jews have special rights and privileges cannot be truthfully be described as a democracy. Very soon Israel is going to have to choose if it wants to be considered a Jewish state or democratic state.

3. Followers of Judaism are adherents to a religion, not a people.

As a side note, I, for one, would truly find it refreshing if the pro Israel posters on this board would refrain from incessantly making references to the Holocaust and labeling those opposed to the current Israeli regime as anti-Semites.

[Jingthing]

3. Followers of Judaism are adherents to a religion, not a people.

What are you on about? Are you saying Jews who aren't religious aren't Jews? Who mentioned Judaism, the religion? I was clearly talking about the concept of the Jewish state, not the Judaism state. Yes, Virginia, Jews ARE a people. Some Jews are religious and practice Judaism; some don't. Deal with it.

On your other rather cryptic argument about democracy, if you are asking if Israel should treat Arab non-Israeli citizen residents of the west bank as Israeli citizens, let's keep this simple. NO! As far as the 20 percent of Israeli citizens that are Arabs, of course they deserve full equal rights. My impression is that they are somewhat under the bar of full rights, but not massively so, but definitely room for improvement.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

I, for one, would truly find it refreshing if the pro Israel posters on this board would refrain from incessantly making references to the Holocaust and labeling those opposed to the current Israeli regime as anti-Semites.

Israel exists because of the Holocaust and many of those opposed to the current Israeli system are anti-Semites. However, I do not see any members referring to anyone posting here as anti-Semitic.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

Israel exists because of the Holocaust and many of those opposed to the current Israeli system are anti-Semites. However, I do not see any members referring to anyone posting here as anti-Semitic.

I didn't notice that either. There was a pointing out that the cartoonist posted here is a notorious antisemite, but that's just stating facts.

It's rather simplistic to say Israel exists only because of the Holocaust. That was definitely a massively important factor, but the Zionist movement and Zionist Jewish settlers existed in Israel long before 1947-8. I also agree opposing Israeli government policies doesn't necessary make someone an anti-semite (I oppose many Israeli policies). I do believe that opposing the existence of a Zionist state and not opposing the existence of the plethora of existing Islamic states IS antisemitic by definition.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[dave111223]

Here is your answer, dude. The USA has about 2 percent Jews.

Support for Israel in U.S. at 63%, Near Record High

http://www.gallup.com/poll/126155/support-israel-near-record-high.aspx

Next ...

Stats like that kind of confound me a bit. Considering that the Gaza war was at the end of 2008, and even yourself, a vehement supporter of Israel, conceded that the force used against Gaza was disproportionate...yet support for Israel in the US shot upwards after that action...

I just don't get it how can someone previously supporting the Palestinian cause see apartment blocks blown up and people looking for their kids in the wreckage and think "Yeah, that's a good thing, i think i'm going to switch sides"

[Jingthing]

I really can't speak for the many respondents of the Gallup poll. Likely, they have a more sophisticated understanding of the history and context of current events than you.

I also object to your painting me as a vehement supporter of Israel as it sounds like you mean to say I am a vehement supporter of Israeli policies and Netanyahu. That is not correct. My support is about Israel's right to EXIST and keep it's Jewish identity. I detest many of their policies and if I were Israeli there is A LOT I would want changed. If I were a Gazan, there is even MORE there I would want changed, but I wouldn't get far expressing that there as they would murder me first.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[up-country_sinclair]

if you are asking if Israel should treat Arab non-Israeli citizen residents of the west bank as Israeli citizens, let's keep this simple. NO! As far as the 20 percent of Israeli citizens that are Arabs, of course they deserve full equal rights. My impression is that they are somewhat under the bar of full rights, but not massively so, but definitely room for improvement.

As you posted, "let's keep this simple", democracy does not exist in partial measures. Either a state has a functioning democracy or it doesn't.

Keeping it even simpler (for fear of being disparaged again as 'cryptic'), one can't be a little bit pregnant.

Israel has a choice to make. Full stop.

[Ulysses G.]

...yet support for Israel in the US shot upwards after that action...

Hamas started the "action" with rocket attacks on civilians in Israel and then used their own civilians as human shields. Americans, in general, do not approve of terrorists.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[dave111223]

Likely, they have a more sophisticated understanding of the history and context of current events than you.

You would say that the average American has an in depth (or even basic) knowledge of the history of the middle east and also has a well rounded understanding of current events (come on be honest, i used to live there)

[Jingthing]

Likely, they have a more sophisticated understanding of the history and context of current events than you.

You would say that the average American has an in depth (or even basic) knowledge of the history of the middle east and also has a well rounded understanding of current events (come on be honest, i used to live there)

I don't know, but I do know you thought Israel handing over Gaza was ancient history, so it wouldn't be hard to beat that.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[dave111223]

Hamas started it with rocket attacks on civilians in Israel and then used their own civilians as human shields. Americans, in general, do not approve of terrorists.

When a terrorist used a human shield i don't think you should send a missile right through the "shield" to take out the terrorist.

If there was some terrorist bloke in the condo a couple of floors below mine i don't think i'd appreciate it a missile came through my kids bedroom on the way to taking him out.

Edited September 20, 2011 by dave111223

[dave111223]

I don't know, but I do know you thought Israel handing over Gaza was ancient history, so it wouldn't be hard to beat that.

Come on be honest, I bet most American wouldn't even know where Gaza was? Most people thought i was moving to Taiwan.

[Jingthing]

if you are asking if Israel should treat Arab non-Israeli citizen residents of the west bank as Israeli citizens, let's keep this simple. NO! As far as the 20 percent of Israeli citizens that are Arabs, of course they deserve full equal rights. My impression is that they are somewhat under the bar of full rights, but not massively so, but definitely room for improvement.

As you posted, "let's keep this simple", democracy does not exist in partial measures. Either a state has a functioning democracy or it doesn't.

Keeping it even simpler (for fear of being disparaged again as 'cryptic'), one can't be a little bit pregnant.

Israel has a choice to make. Full stop.

That's ridiculous and I think you know it. 100 pure democracy has never existed anywhere. It's an ideal that is never realized. Yes, absolutely, democracy DOES exist in partial measures and it has nothing to do with pregnancy. So I was right, you were talking that bull about accepting West Bank Arabs as Israeli citizens? That's not happening and we all know that, why play games?

Israel absolutely DOES have a functioning democracy today. Room for improvement? Yes. Room to push down the theocratic elements? Totally.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[up-country_sinclair]

My support is about Israel's right to EXIST and keep it's Jewish identity.

The Palestinian Authority and (to the best of my knowledge) everyone posting on this thread has long recognized Israel's right to exist. But you're being disingenuous with the "Jewish identity" bit. Netanyahu is demanding what no previous Israeli govt. has put forward: that Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state. If Netanyahu was truly interested in peace he would drop this toxic rhetoric from the negotiations. But he's not, and that's why Israel finds itself so isolated from the nations of the world.

[Jingthing]

I don't know, but I do know you thought Israel handing over Gaza was ancient history, so it wouldn't be hard to beat that.

Come on be honest, I bet most American wouldn't even know where Gaza was? Most people thought i was moving to Taiwan.

Honestly, I think Americans would tend to know more where Gaza is than the difference between Thailand and Taiwan. Israel is in the US news most everyday. What's the point anyway. You seemed to be asserting you have to be Jewish to feel supportive of Israel. Well, you don't. Move on.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing