How To Deal With Homophobia?

[smo]

Earlier this year I and my Thai BF took a night train from Hualamphong heading for Ko Samui. We took the “sleeper” compartment where the seats would be pulled out in the evening to make the sleeping berths. On the other side from our seats were three British lads, barely out of their teens, rather well-behaved, nothing unruly about them. However, one of them, seemed to be the youngest, after a while noticed our “behavior.” Let me say right here that we were not flaming or out-there or anything, just a bit more intimate than friends would be. So the guy kept stealing glances at us, and behind our back was gossiping about us to his friends. The other two did not seem to make a big deal of it, a few chuckles but that’s about it. My defense was throwing back a couple of hard stares at the guy, to let him know that I too noticed his noticing. All this went over my BF’s head, I did not want to alarm him. However, being on the defensive, my mood was less than festive, and BF did not ask question when I did not want to climb into his berth. FYI I’m in my early 50s and the BF early 30s.

Before bedtime, the British trio made acquaintance with a lone Eastern European gal and they got together for a while. Immediately the young guy told her about us, because she turned around and looked at us with funny face. Again all I did was staring back at her, like “so what?” As you can see nobody was really mis-behaving here. The young guy was propably inexperienced and this was new to him, whereas his friends did not see us as a topic of interest. The next morning, since we were arriving, everybody was too busy or anxious to pay us the same attention.

Not a remarkable experience. However, it keeps nagging me as the way I behaved or ought to have behaved that night. In hindsight I feel I should have come up to the guy and introduce ourselves as “yeah, we’re a couple, so stop staring” or something like that. Not to provoke, but to inform so everybody could get on.

What do you think? Any personal experience you’d like to share? I’ll be very interested to find how you deal with this kind of behind-the-back homophobia. Even though nothing happened, I felt insulted nevertheless.

A couple of clarifications I have to make:

-“more intimate than friends”: not in a sexual way, but in a familiar (as in family) way. There is a difference between the way a child refuses something offered by a peer and the way he refuses what offered by his parents. That’s what my being “more intimate than friends” meant. The instance in question was when the BF offered me a snack or something and I declined. Hardly a sexual intercourse I should say. Nevertheless, some subtle body language on our part must have spelled “intimacy” to the English lad’s radar – come to think of it, probably his budding gaydar, or whatever he was “budding” with. –

- As to “climbing into the BF’s berth,” this also meant in a family getting-togetherness kind of way, not a pair of lovebirds snuggling up when the lights went out. The Thais around us were doing this aplenty, not spending the night together even though some of them certainly did, but in the sentiment of tucking the little ones to bed.

[PS - the topic was initially posted on the other “gay thailand forum.” Unfortunately my thread on that board was hijacked by trolls who seemed inclined to engage in verbal attack rather than sharing any experience they’ve had. Hope I have better luck over here. Please hold off passing judgement in the vein “if it happened to you, something must be wrong with you or some bad thing you did”. I’m more interested in how you would react or counter-act in this intance, and/or especially how you managed when something similar has happened to you. ]

Thanks

smo

[BambinA]

How To Deal With Homophobia?, when it happened to you....

im sorry about your bad experience

me, myself i have never had the experience like that b4 in real life

if i was you,i'd be quiet ..and F-ck em off .. coz methink i met them just once time in my life.. and they have no influent on my life just a piece of <deleted>.. so i do not care.

or maybe i will flirt their dads and being their "cruel step-mom"

[Ijustwannateach]

I've also been disappointed by "that other forum." We're a bit better-behaved here, I hope.

Anyway, I don't think the guy you noticed was being so aggressive or hostile; he seems more immature or unused to the sight of two men being intimate, and being a (recent) teenager he calls attention to anything unusual to giggle about.

If it had been me? I probably would have ignored the whole group and let him work out his provinciality by himself.

For me, homophobia would've meant someone making negative or threatening comments or gestures, or staring in a hostile manner, which didn't seem to be what happened to you. The girl probably thought he was out of his mind for making such a fuss.

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

Hi.. and welcome to the more "cultured" board..!

(And if anybody hi-jacks this post.. hit "Report" asap.. and I'll deal with it..! I've had to do it a few times already...)

First, I think it's good that his other friends didn't seem to care about you and the bf... so it was only the young/giggly/naive one..

I think I would have just ignored him. His firends seem to have ignored his giggles too.. by what you wrote.

I tend to be non-confrontational in any way at all, unless someone is obviously aggressive towards me first.

ChrisP

Mod

[bkk1970]

Hi.. and welcome to the more "cultured" board..!

(And if anybody hi-jacks this post.. hit "Report" asap.. and I'll deal with it..!  I've had to do it a few times already...)

First, I think it's good that his other friends didn't seem to care about you and the bf... so it was only the young/giggly/naive one..

I think I would have just ignored him.  His firends seem to have ignored his giggles too.. by what you wrote.

I tend to be non-confrontational in any way at all, unless someone is obviously aggressive towards me first.

ChrisP

Mod

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi OP,

I agree with above comments.I wouldn't call what happened to both of you as Homophobia.I experienced worst in Vietnam.13 years back in the past,my BF and I visited Hanoi,and I felt very uncomfortable with the local's behavior.Once,a guy detached from a group and threw an icescream stick at BF's back and yelled"PD"(fag in french).I would call it Homophobia.Even in Thailand,when you drive into the backcountry,some local kids might make fun of you with glances and chuckles.Of course,this make you feel uncomfortable at the moment.

A lot of tourist guys,unfortunately when travelling abroad,behave as if they were home,regardless to the local tradition or tolerance.

As BambinA said,F...them off!!!

[PeaceBlondie]

I've been in Thailand now for 2.5 years, and I don't get any homophobia from THAIS. Only from farang, and seldom that, because the main farang I talk to are gay themselves.

I'm practicing what to say if a Western missionary-type homophobe tries to preach to me. I'll say something like, "This is Thailand. If you want to kill fags, go buy cigarrettes. I smoke Thai sausage."

[solo siam]

Poor guy probably wondered why you were staring at HIM.

[smo]

Hi OP,

I agree with above comments.I wouldn't call what happened to both of you as Homophobia.I experienced worst in Vietnam.13 years back in the past,my BF and I visited Hanoi,and I felt very uncomfortable with the local's behavior.Once,a guy detached from a group and threw an icescream stick at BF's back and yelled"PD"(fag in french).I would call it Homophobia.Even in Thailand,when you drive into the backcountry,some local kids might make fun of you with glances and chuckles.Of course,this make you feel uncomfortable at the moment.

A lot of tourist guys,unfortunately when travelling abroad,behave as if they were home,regardless to the local tradition or tolerance.

As BambinA said,F...them off!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks guys, for the reply. Some are quite funny!

Bkk1970, sorry what happened to you and your BF in VN. Lucky that it was only an ice cream stick was thrown at him. I’m originally from there, and just spent last summer there. In 1992 about the same year you guys were visiting, I returned to VN for the first time since my departure twenty years before that. Since I’ve made several visits and long-term stays for family reasons. My last visit will probably my last, having come to the sad conclusion that the VN I have known, the people, the culture in which I grew up have completely disappeared. The South VNmese have not lost a war but a country.

The current generation has nothing in common with me, maybe the language but even that has been compromised. We used to be a proud race, cultivated (granted being one of the side-effects of French colonisation). Saigon was the Pearl of the Orient. Now all that is gone, exept for a few French buildings left as a testament to a vanished era. Saigon city hall that features on the front page of every VN tourist brochure is one example. The people are something else.

Re homosexuality, I’m paraphrasing the Director of Ministry of Health when he voiced his opinion in a recent series of news article re the emergence of gay “culture” in HCMC:

“Most of them are effeminate, like to wear make up and woman-ly clothing. Those who are timid would not act that way for fear of being found out. They would behave like normal men in order to keep under cover their true nature, therefore it’s not easy to tell if they are ‘pede’ (short of pederastre, the French term for gays), some would even get married…”

Yes, those words are uttered in 2005 by a top VNmese government official. In the face of such "logic" I don't even know where to begin. You see why I have abandoned hope. This summer saw the big celebration for the 30th anniversary of the end of the (American) war.

smo

[ProThaiExpat]

Many Thais look, with what I consider, curiosity at my Thai and myself when we are out and about. Probably because their is a marked age difference, marked size difference and we are both so good looking!!!

I was traveling in Europe years ago with a much younger lover and would encounter other trourists who would often ask in social situations "Is he your nephew"?. If I liked them, I would say "yes", in response to the question and if I didn't like them, I would say "No, he is my lover, we have been together since he was nine"?. The shock and dismay on the disliked questioners was such a pleasure to behold and I certainly didn't have to deal with them again, as they were long gone thereafter.

[Ice Maiden]

I have some friends that are gay and I've been a witness to people giving funny looks and abuse to them, it's really quite sad actually and I feel for my friends more toward the sensitive gay friends I have

The people that give abuse are like frightened little children. They see something they are not familiar with and it scares them so they react with negative feelings towards gay people.

[Soph]

I would imagine that he did not so much have a problem with the fact that you are a gay couple, more to do with the fact that you are a lot older than the Thai guy - something that in this country carries a bit of a stigma. He probably (and no offence) thought you were dodgy farrang bloke with a prostitue (is that what you call guys too? )

But what does he know? Just what he sees and nothing further, same if an older farrang guy is with a young Thai girl, people jump to conclusions and will give dirty looks. (although most of the time its warranted )

[ChrisP]

Many Thais look, with what I consider, curiosity at my Thai and myself when we are out and about. Probably because their is a marked age difference, marked size difference and we are both so good looking!!!

I have the same thing happen sometimes when I am out with my Thai bf too (the age difference is marked)... but I would rather just a "look" happen, instead of being insulted - which is what would happen in parts of the US...

He is also aware that some people may think we are "money-boy and customer".... but there's not much we can do about that..

ChrisP

[Guest endure]

Talking of homophobia I wandered into the chatroom yesterday and caught the end of a conversation about poofs that tailed off as I appeared. I know the conversation was homophobic cos one of the people in there sent a pm saying 'watch out, that endure's a homo'. Problem was he sent it to me

[Ijustwannateach]

Ha! Your story demonstrates that for most homophobes and similarly undereducated types, their brain power and competence are well-matched!

[camerata]

I think the OP was being a bit over-sensitive in this case. If you are going to glare at everyone who stares or giggles, you're more likely to provoke a real confrontation than if you just ignore it.

A couple of weeks ago in Villa supermarket I had the elder of a gay American couple (with obvious New York accents) block my way and give me the "What are you looking at, man?" routine. I was doing my shopping alone and had barely glanced at them but this guy looked extremely paranoid and must have imagined I gave him a weird look or something.

As for the homophobic comments and "jokes" on this board, frankly I don't know how you guys can put up with it. From an early age, Brit males are socialized to be totally paranoid about homosexuality (i.e. the slightest hint that they themselves might be gay) and as a result many of them never get over this need to verbally ridicule gays at every opportunity.

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks for such a candid message, Camerata. It's always nice to see that many (maybe even most) straight guys are reasonable creatures who can even conquer the fears that craven society reinforces in them.

I dunno what was going on with the NY gays, but maybe it has more to do with their being from NY than with their being gay? NY's not exactly famed for its etiquette....

I think that's one lesson Thais can teach straight men from Western countries: to lose their homophobia (which most Thais thankfully lack).

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

From an early age, Brit males are socialized to be totally paranoid about homosexuality (i.e. the slightest hint that they themselves might be gay)

As an originally Brit male myself, I can certainly confirm this. School children from an early age are allowed to use "gay" as demeaning and a term of ridicule. And where do you think that comes from..? The home.

Interesting, as many British Males are often considered somewhat "soft" in demeanor (compared to other countries) and so many of them are already thought to be gay.. ! Ironic really.

The other aspect of Brit society though is that it completely adores and embraces flaming effeminate show-biz "personalities".. like Graham Norton, Hinge & Bracket, Liberace, Dame Edna, etc...

ChrisP

[smo]

I think the OP was being a bit over-sensitive in this case. If you are going to glare at everyone who stares or giggles, you're more likely to provoke a real confrontation than if you just ignore it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, as the OP, I plead “over-sensitive” in this instance. That’s why I started this thread to see if you guys, gay and straight, could come up with some sort of happy-medium stance (arms akimbo nowithstanding). I obviously seemed to have a problem with "just ignoring it."

It'll be a civic lesson for me, and an important one at that - even at my advancing age, so that I won’t provoke "real confrontation” (since when does “confrontation” carry such a negative connotation anyway?) My question now is: why do gays always have to be the good will ambassador to the straight world? To perpetual the second-class citizenship conferred upon us by their majority?

Just a thought, how would a straight couple feel if other people stare or giggle or make funny face at them? I wonder if they wouldn’t feel like monkeys in a cage? Or would they just become sweetly demure to avoid “confrontation?” And yet, if you have read this far, this seems to be expected of les pedes

[Guest endure]

It'll be a civic lesson for me, and an important one at that - even at my advancing age, so that I won’t provoke "real  confrontation” (since when does “confrontation” carry such a negative connotation anyway?) My question now is:  why do gays always have to be the good will ambassador to the straight world?  To perpetual the second-class citizenship conferred upon us by their majority?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But it wasn't the "straight world" was it? It was one dumb teenager.

[thaibebop]

I think the OP was being a bit over-sensitive in this case. If you are going to glare at everyone who stares or giggles, you're more likely to provoke a real confrontation than if you just ignore it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, as the OP, I plead “over-sensitive” in this instance. That’s why I started this thread to see if you guys, gay and straight, could come up with some sort of happy-medium stance (arms akimbo nowithstanding). I obviously seemed to have a problem with "just ignoring it."

It'll be a civic lesson for me, and an important one at that - even at my advancing age, so that I won’t provoke "real confrontation” (since when does “confrontation” carry such a negative connotation anyway?) My question now is: why do gays always have to be the good will ambassador to the straight world? To perpetual the second-class citizenship conferred upon us by their majority?

Just a thought, how would a straight couple feel if other people stare or giggle or make funny face at them? I wonder if they wouldn’t feel like monkeys in a cage? Or would they just become sweetly demure to avoid “confrontation?” And yet, if you have read this far, this seems to be expected of les pedes

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really don't think you were being over sensitive. I think you should have just ignored them and done what you would have normally done, but saying that you were over sensitive is taking away from what you felt because of them. Many people give my wife and I odd looks and even odder comments. They don't seem to know sometimes how to handle a interracial couple. This bugs me. Also, when my wife gets dirty or odd looks when poeple see her with our daughter, this really pisses me off. So, what these people are doing is bad behavior, but the best revenge is living well, so I do what I would normally do and make a point of showing that, yes this is my wife and yes this little girl is her daughter, in a polite way.

Perhaps you should have given your BF a great big kiss.

[smo]

Perhaps you should have given your BF a great big kiss.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Best Vote goes to you, thaibebop!

[sbk]

Just a thought, how would a straight couple feel if other people stare or giggle or make funny face at them? I wonder if they wouldn’t feel like monkeys in a cage? Or would they just become sweetly demure to avoid “confrontation?”  And yet, if you have read this far, this seems to be expected of les pedes 

I am a farang woman with a Thai man and we do get stares and looks. It is uncommon and most people feel the need to stare and comment.

How do I feel about it? Well, after being married for 16 years I had better have learned to live with it by now or I would be one big stressed out ulcer . The truth is, you can't change other people's minds with aggression or confrontation. The best way is to lead by example.

[ChrisP]

I also agree to "..lead by example."

Unless something looks like it's going to go down, I just continue what I'm doing (like holding hands with the bf in a mall) with a look of total innocence on my face... If the person staring or giggling gets no reaction out of me, then they get bored very quickly and look for other entertainment. Then (hopefully) they won't try it again on another gay (or interracial) couple.

I'm also totally out at work - at my University in the US. I believe that visibility is the best education.

ChrisP

[AlexLah]

Hey, It does not matter if you are gay ore straight. If you are with a younger or older partner people will always look at ya.

&lt;deleted&gt; them it is none of their bussines.

Just be happy together, It is you and your partner against the world.

KR,

Alex

[Scott]

I run into homophobic behavior occasionally. Depending on the safety of the situation, I usually blow the offending person a kiss and ask if he wants to join me. You'd be surprised the number who do!!

Basically, there is nothing you can do about it. In as much as possible, I try to keep any "closeness" out of the public arena. Not because of anything other than I am not all that comfortable with public affection. I also don't particularly like to be exposed to it--either straight or gay. This, however, is MY problem and I don't take it out on others. (By the way gay bars, discos etc are OK).

I wouldn't worry too much about it.