I'M Told House Leases Are Not Secure? Your Opinion?

[mikey88]

Hi...well..I've spent the last few days driving around CM with a real estate agent and viewing houses for lease. The agent tells me a one year lease is standard. I'm fine with that. On further inspection I see that many of the houses for rent are also for sale. The agent informed me that under Thai law the tenant is NOT protected by the lease and that the lease is with the current owner and subject to the 'whim' of the new owner.

Not acceptable to me really...but is it true and what to do??

What that means if it's true is that (in the worst case scenario) I coulod move in...spend a lot of money on nice furniture (which I want to do) ..sert the place up the way I like it and then be told to leave next week or next month if it sold and the new owner didn't want to rent to me or rent at all... Could I have the views of people with direct experience on this issue. I would appreciate it greatly...

Cheers to all Mike

[Ulysses G.]

All the things that you have mentioned could happen, but I have rented lots of properties here and never been screwed over by a landlord. Most of them have been very decent. I'm not saying that none of them will take advantage of you, but in my experiece it is not very common.

[KNJ]

Just get a clause in the lease to protect you if it happens, with penalties for the owner. Thais hate to lose money needlessly

[cardholder]

My experience is the same.

But,..........TIT

Frankly. YOU have no choice about what is acceptable. You are in Thailand and the laws/practices of Thailand will apply.

[hellodolly]

Can't see why that would not be the case. Back home in Canada where I lived that was the case. You did however have to give a bit of notice.

Ask your self would you buy a house with a renter in it if you wanted to live there and could not move the renter out?

[chaoyang]

My experience is that it can be difficult to get your deposit money back -- I was about 50-50 successful at that.

Before the attack dogs come out: I didn't trash the places; the landlords had sometimes spent the deposit and couldn't come up with it. They might try to wait you out figuring you're a foreigner and are on a deadline to leave altogether.

Edited October 18, 2011 by chaoyang

[alfieconn]

Can't see why that would not be the case. Back home in Canada where I lived that was the case. You did however have to give a bit of notice.

Ask your self would you buy a house with a renter in it if you wanted to live there and could not move the renter out?

mistake

Edited October 18, 2011 by alfieconn

[cloudhopper]

A true lease is registered on the chanote deed at the land office and any buyer will have to honor the terms of the lease.

[cardholder]

A true lease is registered on the chanote deed at the land office and any buyer will have to honor the terms of the lease.

They are talking about rentals - occupational leases - not long-term leases.

Leases under 3 years cannot be registered which is why house/shop leases are invariably for 3 years or less.

[NancyL]

In our limited experience (two rentals), we have found the owners didn't throw us out, despite trying to sell the property. In the first case, they did an ownership change within the family (parents passing the unit onto their daughter) and then the new owner wasn't willing to work with us on the rent for a longer-term lease after a year. In the second case, we rented for two years and have just been informed that the owner wants to raise the rent when the rental term expires. It appears that sometimes owners will offer a good initial rent and figure the tenant will accept a rent increase vs. moving after the term of the lease expires.

This isn't acceptable to us, especially since the market values for older condo rentals in CM have declined somewhat due to all the new units on Canal Rd. coming on the market. Besides, a new cheap beer bar catering to loud-mouthed westerners opened on our end of the soi a few months ago. The neighborhood has declined from its already-seedy level.

So now, we're moving back to our original building, but into a different unit. The owner was willing to give us a three-year contract at a good price. We'll probably find we have the same problem with a rent increase after the end of the contract, but at least with a three year contract, we're comfortable investing a bit of money into the place to make improvements to the kitchen, knowing we'll leave them behind when we move. We'll have received three years of enjoyment from our new double sink, hot water heater for that sink and counters raised to western height. (That's not a trivial exercise. It involves yanking all the lower cabinets and reinstalling them on a raised platform.)

Cardholder, thanks for the info that 3 years seems to be the "magic number" for getting a true long-term lease, not a rental agreement.

[Beetlejuice]

Hi...well..I've spent the last few days driving around CM with a real estate agent and viewing houses for lease. The agent tells me a one year lease is standard. I'm fine with that. On further inspection I see that many of the houses for rent are also for sale. The agent informed me that under Thai law the tenant is NOT protected by the lease and that the lease is with the current owner and subject to the 'whim' of the new owner.

Not strictly true.

In Thailand there are tenancy protection laws and once the property is leased, the resident becomes a sitting tenant. Even if the property is sold or a tenant contravenes the lease, a court order is still required for the eviction of a sitting tenant. There could be serious consequences for landlords who take matters into their own hands.

But and this is a big, BUT. It all depends on the terms, conditions and clauses written into the lease contract. These can vary greatly and prior to renting any property for the long term, it is well advised to read the contents of the lease or if in Thai, have someone capable and credible to translate it for you prior to signing any rental contracts, paying deposits and moving in.

In this case I guess that the agents have vested interests in the renting and the selling of the said properties, which means they are tailoring the leases to suit themselves.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Beetlejuice

[cardholder]

In our limited experience (two rentals), we have found the owners didn't throw us out, despite trying to sell the property. In the first case, they did an ownership change within the family (parents passing the unit onto their daughter) and then the new owner wasn't willing to work with us on the rent for a longer-term lease after a year. In the second case, we rented for two years and have just been informed that the owner wants to raise the rent when the rental term expires. It appears that sometimes owners will offer a good initial rent and figure the tenant will accept a rent increase vs. moving after the term of the lease expires.

This isn't acceptable to us, especially since the market values for older condo rentals in CM have declined somewhat due to all the new units on Canal Rd. coming on the market. Besides, a new cheap beer bar catering to loud-mouthed westerners opened on our end of the soi a few months ago. The neighborhood has declined from its already-seedy level.

So now, we're moving back to our original building, but into a different unit. The owner was willing to give us a three-year contract at a good price. We'll probably find we have the same problem with a rent increase after the end of the contract, but at least with a three year contract, we're comfortable investing a bit of money into the place to make improvements to the kitchen, knowing we'll leave them behind when we move. We'll have received three years of enjoyment from our new double sink, hot water heater for that sink and counters raised to western height. (That's not a trivial exercise. It involves yanking all the lower cabinets and reinstalling them on a raised platform.)

Cardholder, thanks for the info that 3 years seems to be the "magic number" for getting a true long-term lease, not a rental agreement.

you are welcome.

i think for 'legal' accuracy I should have said:-

Leases up to three years need not be registered but registration at the Land Department is mandatory for leases that are over three years.

In practice I think this is why most house/condo rentals are under 3 years. I think taxes are also payable on registration.

[smiling mantis]

Ride the escalator. Most of the houses you see for rent come furnished. Get one of those.

Then when the landlord gives you the boot, it's a matter of grabbing the laptop and your toothbrush and starting the process over again.

[ludditeman]

It's only a few hundred baht to move your furniture.

Why worry.

PS

I always move house when the landlord raises the rent, their costs don't go up, so why should my rent.

Thai tenants won't put up with rent increases, but many western people will, surprising as foreigners usually are already paying 50% more.

Edited October 19, 2011 by ludditeman

[hedonist44]

All the things that you have mentioned could happen, but I have rented lots of properties here and never been screwed over by a landlord. Most of them have been very decent. I'm not saying that none of them will take advantage of you, but in my experiece it is not very common.

Agreed.

[thrilled]

The problem that I see in thailand about renting ,is that the renter is responsible for fixing something if it breaks instead of the landlord.

[jonwilly]

Do folks remember Ron who had the Fillmore East and then the place on the Ping with a Three Year lease.

About 18 months into lease, Owner orders him out and despite his protests he was out and gone, along with all the other business's.

Property is still empty.

john

[Ulysses G.]

I always wondered why Ron closed his place. He sold some darn good steaks.

[jonwilly]

" He sold some darn good steaks. "

And at very good Prices.

john

[OldGringo]

Follow these three rules and you should have an easy go of it. If you don't, it's going to be a tahng lahm-bahk.

Rule #1

Try to maintain good relations with the owners. Be friendly. Smile a lot. Thailand was known as the Land of Smiles 20 -30 years ago. Do your bit to bring back that wonderful tradition.

Rule #2

If serious problems arise, cut your losses and leave. Chiang Mai is a renter's market. You can find something else.

Rule #3

Avoid litigation at all costs. A farang in the legal system here is like a babe in the woods. You won't know what is going on around you.

[moe666]

I think many farangs feel they will not be protected by the legal system, but many reports here on TV refute this misconception. Its a matter of how much fight you have in your tank and if the situation is worth a fight. As someone mentioned earlier put it in the lease. Also remember your agent has his own agenda and will push his properties

[shepsel]

If you have a lease for one year, or any term specified, the landlord is not obligated to renew the contract at all. If at the end of the term of the contract the landlord can request a raise in the rent if he/she feels justified.

The unit I am renting is in a high rise condo. The owner would like to sell it, but in the past two years that I have been living here there hasn't been even one showing.

What I have done with the contract is allow them to sell the unit I am renting, but they would have to provide me with a similar unit to my liking, same size or larger, and pay all of my moving expenses, including packing, moving, re-installing internet, cable, etc. etc. They have to give me 90 days notice that the unit has been sold before this can happen.

Also, I have signed leases for a three year term, with two three year options to re-rent the same premises for another three year term at the same rental rate, thus giving me 9 years of living at the same rate in the same place. THe owner is satisfied as he has a long term tenant, and I have the security of not having increases or being forced to move.

So far it is working.

[hml367]

If you have a lease for one year, or any term specified, the landlord is not obligated to renew the contract at all. If at the end of the term of the contract the landlord can request a raise in the rent if he/she feels justified.

The unit I am renting is in a high rise condo. The owner would like to sell it, but in the past two years that I have been living here there hasn't been even one showing.

What I have done with the contract is allow them to sell the unit I am renting, but they would have to provide me with a similar unit to my liking, same size or larger, and pay all of my moving expenses, including packing, moving, re-installing internet, cable, etc. etc. They have to give me 90 days notice that the unit has been sold before this can happen.

Also, I have signed leases for a three year term, with two three year options to re-rent the same premises for another three year term at the same rental rate, thus giving me 9 years of living at the same rate in the same place. THe owner is satisfied as he has a long term tenant, and I have the security of not having increases or being forced to move.

So far it is working.

This sounds like in your favor.

I would caution anyone from assuming the same will work for something past 30 years. The maximum personal lease allowed is 30 years I think. I think there is a 50 year commercial lease available in Thailand and I don't think that is what is being discussed here. I think the maximum allowed for personal lease is 30 years. The owner may or may not renew for any longer term, up to 30 years, at the end of the first 30 years or for 30 years from some point within the 30 year lease. Some people think they can get a 30 year lease with 1 or 2 "options" for further leases. I don't think that is cumpulsory on the owner. As I said, I think they may make another lease, but I don't think they are required to make another one.

I have heard of 2 or 3 30 year leases being signed at the beginning of the first 30 year lease, then the instructions say just record the 2nd and/or 3rd lease at the end of the 1st lease. I think it is obvious what the problems could be in this case.

I have also heard of leases including a clause that if real estate ownership laws change so thait non-Thais are allowed to own real estate, then the lessee has the option of converting to ownership. Obviously, since the laws have not changed that way, this has not been tested. I would think the law could be written (not necessarily) so that those clauses were invalid.

As has been stated many times, best to check with a lawyer.

MSPain

Edited October 20, 2011 by hml367