Legal Recourse In A Bike Accident And The Reality.

[thaicbr]

As far as I understand Thai "law", it goes something like this for us farangs: It is always your fault, because if you were not here it would not have happened.

That's <deleted>. If you have a witness it all goes according to the law. But very rarely do road accidents go to court. The other party or their insurance pay.

[wantan]

As far as I understand Thai "law", it goes something like this for us farangs: It is always your fault, because if you were not here it would not have happened.

This is not only applied to farangs. These are the normal words you will hear when an accident happened: What are you doing here with your car? Why are you driving this street? Why do you drive on the street with your bicycle?

Its always a try to take the blame to the other one.

When someone crashed into my back while i was standing on the side lane (some call it "motorcycle lane" i guess) his first words were: Why are you standing here?

And when talking about money at the police station his relatives many times wanted to tell me thats its forbidden to stop on the side lane. But police disagreed in that

[Gippy]

1320207468[/url]' post='4815445']

As far as I understand Thai "law", it goes something like this for us farangs: It is always your fault, because if you were not here it would not have happened.

Reminds me of when somebody ran their Wave into the back of my PCX. They claimed the accident was my fault because I slowed down in front of them, never mind the blocked road in front of me or the fact that she was texting on her mobile at the time!

[ludditeman]

I'm making a left turn at a traffic light. There is a truck parked at the corner, so I can't see on coming traffic (there should be no "on coming traffic when making a left BTW). I turn, and I come face to face with an adult women in a government employee's uniform on a scooter. I swerve, and miss her by inches. If it wasn't for the high performance handling of my bike (or pure luck), she would have hit me. Any damages or injury were cause by negligence, and I would say criminal negligence. She did not miscalculate her speed or, "just didn't see me", or had poor reflexes. She broke a law that has obvious safety implications. Whether it was her intent to hit me or not she f*&cked up real bad and caused injury and damages. If my hypothetical 10 year old daughter was in a comma for the rest of her life as a result, You couldn't pay enough. The MAX pay out on compulsory insurance is like 50-100 thousand baht. I would want justice dam_n it!

I DEMAND SATISFACTION!!!!

Boy racer going too fast and not looking properly.

Learn to drive slowly round corners.

Or accept the consequences.

You are no longer living in a country where it is always someone else's fault.

PS

If you had a 10 year old on your m/c you would be breaking Thai law (not than anyone cares).

Edited November 2, 2011 by ludditeman

[ajarnyai]

I see by many of these "love it or leave it" comments, that most of you have been here long enough to start thinking like the locals. I'm not saying that's a bad thing,

I have yet to hear anyone say that were the victim of an obvious act of negligence. If you're out there I would like to hear you story.

Although I find this conversation fascinating, all I really wanted to know was does the Thailand impose a jail sentence for what we call " criminal negligence or reckless endangerment" in America. Since I've lived here for less than 2 years, I guess I still hold such concepts in high regard. Thoughts like not taking the law in you own hands, and seeking justice in a court ( when you feel someone should be punished) still swim through my head. I will learn to adjust.

I thank the heavens everyday when I return home from work. I've read a lot on this forum about when happens when you get into an accident, and none of looks good. I hope I can be more Buddha like, or Jesus like and forgive someone's lack of respect for my life.

I do have one final question?

Would you seek a jail term for the person driving in the wrong direction (if the law allowed) or would you just accept your fate, so to speak?

[ludditeman]

Would you seek a jail term for the person driving in the wrong direction (if the law allowed) or would you just accept your fate, so to speak?

I often drive my m/c on the wrong side of the road, to get somewhere on a dual carriageway or one way street.

If you are careful and slow, nobody is bothered, and I don't see it can do any harm. IMHO The person driving at 100km/h is always the one in the wrong and the one that causes accidents.

Edited November 2, 2011 by ludditeman

[endure]

I must admit, I'm a little surprised by such cavalier attitudes toward this sort of thing.

Thailand is the Hub of Cavalier Attitudes. That's what gives it much of its charm. That and mai ben rai - something you ought to try and cultivate.

[wantan]

I see by many of these "love it or leave it" comments, that most of you have been here long enough to start thinking like the locals. I'm not saying that's a bad thing,

I disagree, most here making such statements do not think like locals. They are just masters of pithy sayings. They dress up like going on Paris/Dakar for every little ride to mamas house around the corner. And they spend much money for insurance every year. Not much locals are doing this.

[LeCharivari]

.... I have yet to hear anyone say that were the victim of an obvious act of negligence. If you're out there I would like to hear you story.

OK.

A couple of years ago I was riding my bike down a local main road, coming up to a cross roads (minor road going across, white-lined) with cars parked on either side and cars waiting to cross from either side. As I went past the cross roads an old Honda Wave shot out of the road to the right, past the parked and waiting cars, and drove straight into my handlebars (right hand side, from behind me at my 4.30), knocking me down and spinning his bike around so that it was facing back down the road. He came off and broke his right wrist.

I wasn't hurt and fortunately my bike was so much bigger than his that the only damage was minor, to the speedo. There were a number of witnesses, all Thai, all of whom said the other rider (a Thai, aged about 16) was entirely to blame. A motor-bike taxi driver on the corner called the police on his radio, asked if I minded letting a pick up truck cart the kid off to get patched up (I agreed) and took his ID card.

Local Police arrived about 10 minutes later and took all the details, by which time the kid's parents had arrived. We all went to the local police station, including the remains of the Wave, more statements, and I pushed the Wave into the Police yard and noticed that the bike had no working brakes at all, front or rear. Mother agreed that her son had no licence or insurance, was only 16, that the bike was untaxed, and had no brakes - she blamed her son, as she had told him before he drove the bike that he should use the gears to brake! Son arrived, obviously in pain, patched up.

Police told the son/family that they were 100% at fault and asked me what I wanted to do. I told them that the damage was about 15,000 baht, which I wanted paid. Father laughed and said that he only had 30 baht so couldn't pay for anything and that he didn't own anything. Police didn't laugh and told them that they had to come back with 3,000 baht for me that day at 6PM and to pay me the balance monthly at 2,000 baht per month, which I agreed. Went back at 6 PM and they produced 1,500 baht and said that was all they had. Police still didn't laugh, told him that they weren't going to change the report book, and that they had one hour to come up with another 1,500 baht. One hour later another 1,500 baht was produced and handed over.

For the next two months they handed over 2,000 baht per month, then asked if they could go home for Songkran (and have their ID cards returned). Police asked me, I said OK if they pay me 3,000 baht that month (10,000 baht total) and then I'll let them off the rest. Next month, 3,000 baht paid, end of incident.

Had they simply paid a couple of hundred baht to service the bike's brakes I wouldn't have been inconvenienced, they wouldn't have been out of pocket 10,000 baht, and their son wouldn't have had a broken wrist that will never be perfect for the rest of his life. Have they serviced the brakes? I doubt it.

You can get paid if you have witnesses, remain calm, and get the Police on your side even if the person who hit you is "poor". As the Police explained, ultimately I had little option but to agree to their solution (which was very fair) as if I didn't they would be obliged to hold both bikes (his and mine) until it went to court, when I could aply for mine to be released.

The Police cannot lock someone up indefinitely until they have paid damages; they can lock them up temporarily until a case goes to court, as long as their being held is approved by a judge, then the court can award a fine, sentence, damages to be deducted from any salary, etc, but that's it. Even Thailand has bankruptcy laws, not 17th century debtors' prisons.

The people arrested for transporting the dogs were caught in the act and charged - Thailand does have the equivalent of "criminal negligence or reckless endangerment laws", but breaking them has to be proven (if anyone wants to prove it).

There is not "always an escape if you are prepared and alert" - there are some things that are unavoidable and sometimes these things happen and there is either no way of taking avoiding action without making the situation worse or just no way of taking avoiding action at all (I would have thought that being hit five times in one year in a parked car would have proved that!).

Thai law, at least in my experience, is not " It is always your fault, because if you were not here it would not have happened". I have had two accidents here - this was was the second. In the first a hot tempered Thai deliberately reversed into my car in a car park when I was stationary , stopped behind him, then by the time the police arrived the original driver had disappeared and a "new" driver had taken his place, with a friend of his who "witnessed" the incident who just happened to be an off-duty Bangkok Police Sergeant. I had no witnesses but the duty inspector at the Pattaya Police station clearly believed my version of what had happened and took the diplomatic way out by saying that as the incident took place on prvate property he couldn't decide blame and we should each pay our own costs (fortunately the other car was far more badly damaged than mine!).

Jai yen, be rational and respectful, and you just may be treated the same way (on the other hand, you may be unlucky!).

[wantan]

.... I have yet to hear anyone say that were the victim of an obvious act of negligence. If you're out there I would like to hear you story.

OK.

A couple of years ago I was riding my bike down a local main road, coming up to a cross roads (minor road going across, white-lined) with cars parked on either side and cars waiting to cross from either side. As I went past the cross roads an old Honda Wave shot out of the road to the right, past the parked and waiting cars, and drove straight into my handlebars (right hand side, from behind me at my 4.30), knocking me down and spinning his bike around so that it was facing back down the road. He came off and broke his right wrist.

I wasn't hurt and fortunately my bike was so much bigger than his that the only damage was minor, to the speedo. There were a number of witnesses, all Thai, all of whom said the other rider (a Thai, aged about 16) was entirely to blame. A motor-bike taxi driver on the corner called the police on his radio, asked if I minded letting a pick up truck cart the kid off to get patched up (I agreed) and took his ID card.

Local Police arrived about 10 minutes later and took all the details, by which time the kid's parents had arrived. We all went to the local police station, including the remains of the Wave, more statements, and I pushed the Wave into the Police yard and noticed that the bike had no working brakes at all, front or rear. Mother agreed that her son had no licence or insurance, was only 16, that the bike was untaxed, and had no brakes - she blamed her son, as she had told him before he drove the bike that he should use the gears to brake! Son arrived, obviously in pain, patched up.

Police told the son/family that they were 100% at fault and asked me what I wanted to do. I told them that the damage was about 15,000 baht, which I wanted paid. Father laughed and said that he only had 30 baht so couldn't pay for anything and that he didn't own anything. Police didn't laugh and told them that they had to come back with 3,000 baht for me that day at 6PM and to pay me the balance monthly at 2,000 baht per month, which I agreed. Went back at 6 PM and they produced 1,500 baht and said that was all they had. Police still didn't laugh, told him that they weren't going to change the report book, and that they had one hour to come up with another 1,500 baht. One hour later another 1,500 baht was produced and handed over.

For the next two months they handed over 2,000 baht per month, then asked if they could go home for Songkran (and have their ID cards returned). Police asked me, I said OK if they pay me 3,000 baht that month (10,000 baht total) and then I'll let them off the rest. Next month, 3,000 baht paid, end of incident.

Had they simply paid a couple of hundred baht to service the bike's brakes I wouldn't have been inconvenienced, they wouldn't have been out of pocket 10,000 baht, and their son wouldn't have had a broken wrist that will never be perfect for the rest of his life. Have they serviced the brakes? I doubt it.

You can get paid if you have witnesses, remain calm, and get the Police on your side even if the person who hit you is "poor". As the Police explained, ultimately I had little option but to agree to their solution (which was very fair) as if I didn't they would be obliged to hold both bikes (his and mine) until it went to court, when I could aply for mine to be released.

The Police cannot lock someone up indefinitely until they have paid damages; they can lock them up temporarily until a case goes to court, as long as their being held is approved by a judge, then the court can award a fine, sentence, damages to be deducted from any salary, etc, but that's it. Even Thailand has bankruptcy laws, not 17th century debtors' prisons.

The people arrested for transporting the dogs were caught in the act and charged - Thailand does have the equivalent of "criminal negligence or reckless endangerment laws", but breaking them has to be proven (if anyone wants to prove it).

There is not "always an escape if you are prepared and alert" - there are some things that are unavoidable and sometimes these things happen and there is either no way of taking avoiding action without making the situation worse or just no way of taking avoiding action at all (I would have thought that being hit five times in one year in a parked car would have proved that!).

Thai law, at least in my experience, is not " It is always your fault, because if you were not here it would not have happened". I have had two accidents here - this was was the second. In the first a hot tempered Thai deliberately reversed into my car in a car park when I was stationary , stopped behind him, then by the time the police arrived the original driver had disappeared and a "new" driver had taken his place, with a friend of his who "witnessed" the incident who just happened to be an off-duty Bangkok Police Sergeant. I had no witnesses but the duty inspector at the Pattaya Police station clearly believed my version of what had happened and took the diplomatic way out by saying that as the incident took place on prvate property he couldn't decide blame and we should each pay our own costs (fortunately the other car was far more badly damaged than mine!).

Jai yen, be rational and respectful, and you just may be treated the same way (on the other hand, you may be unlucky!).

Story of my last accident is pretty much the same. A young thai man crashed in my back with his Air-Blade while i was standing on the side lane, sitting on my bike. Damage 12,500Baht. After some discussion i agreed to get only 6,000Baht paid cash in my hands. I wanted my bike back, end this story soon and didn't wanted to go to court. I was lucky and not hurt. The other one lost some teeths and had a lot deep scratches. I guess he learned his lesson. No need for further punishment.

[ajarnyai]

One more thing....... about this comment...

Boy racer going too fast and not looking properly.

Learn to drive slowly round corners.

Or accept the consequences.

You are no longer living in a country where it is always someone else's fault.

PS

If you had a 10 year old on your m/c you would be breaking Thai law (not than anyone cares).

quote ludditeman

I was not driving fast ( first gear) nor was I not looking as you said, but....... If I stopped to see down the road, she would have hit me, for sure.

If someone stopped in the middle of the road, or was moving slowly away from me, I still might not have been able to avoid hitting them. It would be an accident.,and everyone was doing what is legal, expected, and natural. ....no charges filed

I am new to driving motorcycles ( less than two years), but not new to driving. All these rules of "right of way" do start with a simple one, keep... to your left side of the road. Even Thais know what the yellow line means. The rules of this country are not that different. In fact, my Thai driving instructor told me to me read the UK rules, because they were in English. There is no room for local custom when it comes to which way you should drive? Some collisions are not just simple accidents.

There are many problems on the on the roads here, but there is one that trumps them all "IMO". Driving on wrong....................... I will continue to drive in Thailand and accept the dangers of driving, but I just cannot accept the simple "it was an accident" excuse when someone drives............road.

I'm not trying to start an argument here........................... ( then again, If I got hit, this is what I would argue)..............................

So, in closing to this post,

A bar fight may not have a clear aggressor, or a guy blowing up his kitchen and setting the whole apartment building on fire may not be a clear case of negligence, but won't you :ludditeman: agree that someone driving the wrong way down the street (then getting into an accident) is criminal.?

With respect...........Your thoughts...

[ajarnyai]

I think I might have posted before I was finished writing. My apologies.............

[katabeachbum]

Would you seek a jail term for the person driving in the wrong direction (if the law allowed) or would you just accept your fate, so to speak?

Absolutely not, as he does like everyone else does. His riding is like his mum, dad, uncle and the local Police and +5 million other Thais every single day.

Learn to not crach with them

[Riggi]

Since I've lived here for less than 2 years, I guess I still hold such concepts in high regard. Thoughts like not taking the law in you own hands, and seeking justice in a court ( when you feel someone should be punished) still swim through my head. I will learn to adjust.

2 years!

When I first started riding in Thailand, I got so annoyed by the riders on the shoulder of the road coming the wrong way.

But it only took me about 6 months before I started doing the same.

Adapt to the conditions. Don't expect your environment to adapt to what you consider "normal" or "acceptable".

Or find an environment that matches your expectations. I'm not telling you to get of the country, but maybe riding a motorcycle in Thailand doesn't fit with your concept of what you expect riding a motorcycle to be like... maybe another mode of transport is more suitable. Although if you want to be able to ride somewhere without people riding the wrong way etc, then you probably will need to ride in another country...

[eljeque]

OP,

Have the best health insurance you can find.

Have the best disability insurance you can find.

Have the best motorcycle insurance you can find.

Then, you are fully covered.

If the insurers choose to go after the criminal driver, then they can, as they have far better resources and the infrastructure / connections to do so than you do.

I come form the US. If an uninsured driver hit my car after an illegal lane change, he would not go to jail, and I would have a hell of a time finding any assets which he may have, outside of the old car he was driving.

[RED21]

OP,

Have the best health insurance you can find.

Have the best disability insurance you can find.

Have the best motorcycle insurance you can find.

Then, you are fully covered.

Don't forget to get lots of those giant medallion amulets... I apologize, I couldn't resist.

[thaicbr]

OP,

Have the best health insurance you can find.

Have the best disability insurance you can find.

Have the best motorcycle insurance you can find.

Then, you are fully covered.

Don't forget to get lots of those giant medallion amulets... I apologize, I couldn't resist.

But be careful you do not mix up the anti knifing one with the anti road accident one.. Or just pay extra and get the super bundle, like the army use.

[wantan]

OP,

Have the best health insurance you can find.

Have the best disability insurance you can find.

Have the best motorcycle insurance you can find.

Then, you are fully covered.

Don't forget to get lots of those giant medallion amulets... I apologize, I couldn't resist.

But be careful you do not mix up the anti knifing one with the anti road accident one.. Or just pay extra and get the super bundle, like the army use.

Honestly, a bit local feeling is sure not wrong for driving on thai streets. So go to the temple, donate some money, let a monk bless your bike and ask him about guidance in choosing the right amulet for your protection. If you than also have good insurances you are perfectly prepared.

[macknife]

Welcome to Thailand! Don't ya love it?! :jap:

Yes, I f'ing love it! The last thing I want is a record-ruining, revenue gathering gestapo running around here "enforcing" the law. I seem to hear a lot of whiners begging for this. I left that back in the States and sure as hell don't want it here. Here, there are two rules: (1) You can drive however you like and have no problem so long as you don't cause a problem; and (2) You are responsible for yourself. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. In other words, take a bus or go to a country that better suits your needs. Don't try to change this one.

ad me to that list. I love driving and riding here :jap:

+1! :jap:

+2

I love the traffic laws here.

[wantan]

+2

I love the traffic laws here.

No, i guess you love beeing able to break the traffic laws without beeing punished for it. Driving on the wrong side is sure against the law. And many thais would be happy if there wouldn't be such chaos on the streets too. Thats just a personal opinion of many people here and has nothing to do with "whining".

[ttakata]

Sure when I first got here I was annoyed with scooters on the sidewalk and the reckless driving.

After 2 years riding here I actually feel safer riding here than in the US because the traffic is slower.

At least here in BKK I don't worry about 19 year old girls on cell phones going 90 mph switching 4 lanes in their Escalades.

If you don't want to get hurt riding, accept there are no rules at all and people drive wherever they want.

If you're lucky a rich person will crash into you and you might be able to recoup your costs.

If you want to deal with the time and costs I guess you could try to imprison a poor person but it won't change any laws or education about driving.

Until a powerful politician or royal decides to do something, I doubt driving habits will change here.

I heard last year; some rich Thai guy cut a girl in half with his Porsche and he didn't bother to stop because he knew he could just buy his way out of the problem, and he did.

Look at the lack of safety at a construction site and you'll understand life has less value in this culture.

Buddhists think they will reincarnate so their current existence doesn't matter as much.

[wantan]

Sure Bangkok is the safest place in the world for riding a motorcycle. Only cycling is a bit dangerous

The current traffic laws are made from thai people for thai people. It is not something some "Gestapo farangs" want the thais to do. It is what the elected government thinks (or at least thought) is the best for the people.

Maybe driving on the wrong side is not a good example, because it can make sense sometimes and of course i do it too sometimes (But it would be no problem for me to pay a ticket if police would stop me doing it). But e.g. driving in the dark without lights doesn't make sense at all. Many thais simply "forget" to turn the lights on. Many accidents could be avoided, many poor people could save their money, many people could not get hurt, many families could avoid dead relatives.

Just a bit less laziness of all involved persons and everyone could enjoy driving on thai streets much more. An alternative could also be to change traffic law and e.g. to allow driving on the wrong side in certain circumstances. But to simply tolerate it until an accident happens is imho the wrong way.

[moe666]

Its called self-defense. Sitting in the Doo-Dee bar last night in Chiang Mai a tall blonde tourist pushing a baby in a carriage almost got hit by a motorbike he swerved to avoid. She didn't look before walking into traffic, this is a busy road with out obstructions and the cars and motorbikes can be seen. She was just a dunce and did the same thing later she has no business in Thailand .To the OP get over your need for justice to things that have not happened yet or you will have a miserable time in Thailand.

[monty]

Just my two cents.

To the OP, no I would not want an offender punished beyond his means.

What should be punished is the system which made thatdriver drive the way he did!

As long as parents are allowing their 8 year old sun to drive granny to the market on the Honda wave, they will keep growing up not even realizing that breaking laws should not be done!

On the other side of the social ladder, as long as rich parents are going to pay megabucks for keeping their 17 year old unlicensed kid out of jail after killing someone in traffic with their fancy new birthday present car, nothing will change.

And as long as you can pass a copcar way over the speedlimit without them even blinking an eye (unless their "duty of the day" was checking on speeding), how can you expext people to drive responsible.

So, in a way it is hard to hold the actual offender responsible in an extremish way (like jail, or pushing his family/wife/kids in poverty), as he/she id doing as be/she was raised by society....