hansnl Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Bring in Dutch experts on building dikes and water mannagement. Government will have to spend a lot of money. They were here. They are here. They advised The biggest fault is the building up of areas and canals meant to syphon excess water to the sea. If Thailand wants to do something, to start with, all the built up, overgrown, neglected canals need to be remedied. Will not happen. Then the concentration of everything around Bangkok need to be attacked. Will not happen After that all along rivers land need to be designated as overflow areas. And used if necessary Will not happen Why will things not happen? Because why should you clear land, canals & all of buildings and agriculture if floods like this one only are there 1 year out of 50? You loose 49 years of profit. And let us be sensible, the people will accept this, the memory of bad things are quite short lived here. Besides, accepting advise from a farang? That is a huge loss of face. No, no, no...... I am afraid we will see the above. But how sad I am for all the people hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fergus1969 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Thailand had already asked the Dutch to make a plan concerning water management and design it and they did a few years back. Turned out to be too expensive Bring in Dutch experts on building dikes and water mannagement. Government will have to spend a lot of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fergus1969 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 is that the way Holland used to look on the map? Rather than an expensive, and possibly faulty, patch up job on the existing Bangkok why not move it to higher ground? No need. Listen to the Dutch. Cambridgeshire (UK) did, with the fens, most of that area is below sea level. jb1 Listen to the Dutch: sounds like a good idea but the Thais would never follow advice given to them 100%. Somehow they would manage to <deleted> it up.... There was a proposal to move the capital to Chachaengsao province many years ago but it seemed to have died. And the opportunities for ***making money*** in building a new capital would be enormous.... I think we all know that Thai gov need to have experts in watermanagement & planning, like the Ducth. The Dutch 'created' their country by 'winning' from the sea and proper watermanagement and organization (using Dijkgraaf, Waterschappen, Heemraadschappen etc). Below you can see what can happen if we don't manage. Problem, like all times is that Thai are NOT willing to listen to foreign experts, nor they want help from foreigners. To find a solution, this Thai attitude have to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotto Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Never happen not ever!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payboy Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 What's that Thai word for "plan" again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponbkk Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I am not going to read any of this but only give my opinion that is sure to have already been expressed numerous times and that is: That the 'Thai Govt Finally Sees The Need For Long-Term Planning' will certainly be short-lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 What's that Thai word for "plan" again? Ker Ching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Considered Opinion Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Humorously, I always considered long term planning in Thailand to revolve around tomorrows' lunch. Does that make me a cynic or a skeptic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Considered Opinion Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I'm also hoping (keeping my fingers crossed) that there is a proper approach to planning, hopefully including: - A broad based respected and credible committee which is able to push greed, corruption and collusion to the side... In your dreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigermonkey Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) I don't know whether to laugh or cry about this article ( editorial) and the repies to it. The headline proclaims "long term planning " and the sub-headline talks about "water management " , but the OP is not about either of these topics -- although virtually all of the replies focus on these two elements. This committee has been formed to restore economic confidence particularly with foreign ( mostly Japanese) investors. The committee is charged with the responsibilty of quickly trying to boost foreign industrialists' opinions of Thailand, and the future of foreign factories in Thailand. The only mention of the future and water management is to develop a plan to protect foreign industry in Thailand from future floods. On the topic of water management Khun Virabongsa only says that he is sure that the Yingluck government will do a good job of developing a plan. We need to wait for "long term planning" and "water management". For now the government is more concerned with keeping Japanese jobs here . Edited November 9, 2011 by tigermonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 What's that Thai word for "plan" again? dreeam, no? or dream? the chart says it all. Do we see the glimpse of the team in action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiling mantis Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 A great barometer as to whether they're really going to be serious about this is what they do about Suvarnabhumi airport. I half expect that this airport will become unusable as a result of the flooding, even if the levees protecting it hold. This is because the airport was built on a swamp, and the water will seep under the levees and underneath the runways, causing them to crack and deform. They saw that this was a problem after the 2006 flood, but from what I can gather, their solution was to simply paint over the cracks. Long-term planning also means correcting failures resulting from short-term thinking in the past. Losing this airport is going to be a headshot to the Thai economy. They've had experts telling them for years that the runways need to be put on pilings to allow the water to harmlessly run underneath. Now is the time to listen to them. It's particularly demoralizing when you look at traditional Thai architecture. Everything is on stilts. Why? Long-term planning. It's in the Thai DNA, but like everywhere else, the politicians have their own set of genes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdoom6996 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Government? Planning? What do these words mean. I live in Thailand. Government = corruption and Planning = even more corruption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdoom6996 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 A great barometer as to whether they're really going to be serious about this is what they do about Suvarnabhumi airport. I half expect that this airport will become unusable as a result of the flooding, even if the levees protecting it hold. This is because the airport was built on a swamp, and the water will seep under the levees and underneath the runways, causing them to crack and deform. They saw that this was a problem after the 2006 flood, but from what I can gather, their solution was to simply paint over the cracks. Long-term planning also means correcting failures resulting from short-term thinking in the past. Losing this airport is going to be a headshot to the Thai economy. They've had experts telling them for years that the runways need to be put on pilings to allow the water to harmlessly run underneath. Now is the time to listen to them. It's particularly demoralizing when you look at traditional Thai architecture. Everything is on stilts. Why? Long-term planning. It's in the Thai DNA, but like everywhere else, the politicians have their own set of genes... Politicians have their own JEANS. Genes imply they might have a brain to think with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdoom6996 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 What's that Thai word for "plan" again? Ker Ching. Stupid me. I thought the Thai word for planning was corruption in the form of feasibility studies by hired family members. Trips outside the country for the corrupt to see how other countries manage the monsoon, and things like that. They won't spend the money in Thailand unless it goes in somebodies pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdoom6996 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I am not going to read any of this but only give my opinion that is sure to have already been expressed numerous times and that is: That the 'Thai Govt Finally Sees The Need For Long-Term Planning' will certainly be short-lived. Well Said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honkytowner Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 "...over 1,000 factories, many of which are Japanese or foreign-owned..." So Japanese are now honorary Thais? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhgz Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 "Virabongsa has said the Yingluck government will do its best to ensure this year's flooding will not happen again." "Crossing her fingers and hoping to die" isn't enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickBradford Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Humorously, I always considered long term planning in Thailand to revolve around tomorrows' lunch. Does that make me a cynic or a skeptic? Neither. It makes you a realist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpkin Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I thought perhaps I was a dummy for not knowing what or who "Kaidanren" is, but a search of this topic and a search of thaivisa forums came up with only one instance, that being in this editorial. So, I still don't know--- not that it is that important, perhaps. I just appeal to the Nation's journalists to do a better job of offering a little background explanation in such instances, or of identifying what an abbreviation might mean when used in an article: nominal journalistic standards. Thanks for listening! how about GOOGLE ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpkin Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I'm also hoping (keeping my fingers crossed) that there is a proper approach to planning, hopefully including: - A broad based respected and credible committee which is able to push greed, corruption and collusion to the side, to some extent (totally removing these factors is of course impossible). - Developing proper / appropriate background & future assumptions. - Proper study of the correct and applicable historical, current and forecasted weather / water flow / water volume data etc. - Thailand's economic growth and hopefully incorporating a better (and if needed subsidized) spread of economic development and work opportunities - Transparency, and proper community / public involvement and debate - A step by step logical approach to all of the above, and enough time to do it well. Am I asking too much? Yes. It will not happen. To be effective, this commitee would need to plan for the future of ths beautiful country, and not just for the future of themselves or their Party. To be effective, this committee should be composed of experts from around the world. Since when are Thai politicians prepared to admit that foreigners might know more than they do ? To be effective, this committee must plan for a future beyond the political lifespan of current politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpkin Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I don't know whether to laugh or cry about this article ( editorial) and the repies to it. The headline proclaims "long term planning " and the sub-headline talks about "water management " , but the OP is not about either of these topics -- although virtually all of the replies focus on these two elements. This committee has been formed to restore economic confidence particularly with foreign ( mostly Japanese) investors. The committee is charged with the responsibilty of quickly trying to boost foreign industrialists' opinions of Thailand, and the future of foreign factories in Thailand. The only mention of the future and water management is to develop a plan to protect foreign industry in Thailand from future floods. On the topic of water management Khun Virabongsa only says that he is sure that the Yingluck government will do a good job of developing a plan. We need to wait for "long term planning" and "water management". For now the government is more concerned with keeping Japanese jobs here . True, but............ International confidence in the Thai economic potential, will only come if the difficult problem af water management is addressed. And, if serious action is seen to be taken There are other countries in the world where International Businesses could re-locate, without the problems that successive Thai governments perpetuate. Are there any compelling reasons why Japanese companies should stay in Thailand ? I am sure many Japanese boardrooms are full of people scratching their heads now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiling mantis Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 To be effective, this committee must plan for a future beyond the political lifespan of current politicians. That's it. That's it right there. But is it constructive to pretend that Thailand is alone in this regard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 What's that Thai word for "plan" again? Ker Ching. Stupid me. I thought the Thai word for planning was corruption in the form of feasibility studies by hired family members. Trips outside the country for the corrupt to see how other countries manage the monsoon, and things like that. They won't spend the money in Thailand unless it goes in somebodies pocket. Yes, all of that..... and it still only makes the sound of the family cash register .... Ker Ching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peergin Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I saw a map of the Chao Praya river in Bangkok. I only saw it for a second before it disappeared from my tv screen. However, the river seems to run through Bangkok like a giant horse shoe. It comes down from the northern suburbs, then turns east, then south, then west and finally south again. It is an enormous loop. A shortcut canal to straighten the course of the river would, I think, allow the water to run much faster. The river could then dump much more water into the sea. That is not a small job and it would cost money. However, successive governments have done exactly the same thing by cutting new roads straight through populated areas of the city. If that can be done for new roads, then it can also be done for a canal. Obviously, this is something that will take time, but I think it would be worth studying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anterian Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I couldn't agree more!! And no better dignitary than Virabongsa. His credentials as a leader of the Thai Pulp and Paper Association are legend and he forged the crafting of the Khor Jor Kor in 1991 with the military dictatorship government. This was the notorious decree enforced by the Thai military's Internal Security Operations Command that stripped 2,500 villages, yes that's villages not villagers, of more than 2.3 million hectares of land. Fought tooth and nail to no avail by NGOs and other humanitarian groups. This Khor Jor Kor enabled Thai companies to lease the confiscated land to build cash crop Eucalyptus and Pine plantations. Virabongsa and Plodprasop as head of RFD, the Royal Forestry Department and now your friendly Science and Technology Minister, led these initiatives and alignments with SHS , the parent of Advanced Agro and "invisible" subsidiaries. Other investors included Siam Cement Group and Bangkok Bank. Virabongsa Ramangkura was able to finesse all these relationships and represent numerous other elite business class interests into developing a pulp and paper industry with many international investors such as Asian Development Bank as well as vendors like Finnish and Swedish consulting teams, based on the premise that the Thai Pulp and Paper Industry would serve the Thai people and economic growth in Thailand. In reality, the Thai Pulp and Paper Industry became a predominantly export engine with 75% export rather than a domestic supplier of essential paper needs in developing Thailand. By the way, Advanced Agro is Double A paper, that many of us use to write our notes and papers. You can see their logo on Sathorn, one of the sacrosanct areas of inner Bangkok. So when the Thai Pulp and Paper Industry and Advanced Agro and SHS, its parent and other scoundrel forest destruction companies, fell on hard times in 1997 and financial default on their loans, it was Virabongsa who rose to the occasion and got everybody a bye on their debt and $200 for passing go. So it's no surprise that Virabongsa again "gets the call" , to run interference among NGOS, humanitarian groups, governments, Thai people, and Thai business interests as they start to develop both a damage control, blame game scenario, as well as tee up that "Thai currying favor style" with foreign agencies like World Bank, ADB and others to attempt to line up future investments in Thailand to build "suitable infrastructure to plan for global climate change." This flood disaster may in some way be climate change related, but the human culpability goes way back to stripping the land for self interest, isolation of business class elite and the money train in Bangkok, and the advancement of cash flow into the pockets of privileged feudal elite business class. Their focus on safeguarding Bangkok from the floods at the expense of northern provinces, is merely an extension of the attitudes that prevailed in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s and earlier when many of these causes of infrastructure breakdown and cash canaling took place. instead of proper water canaling. Bangkok represents 41% of the Thai economy, according to Thai sources, but overlooked is that 41% wouldn't exist and is dwarfed by what the Thai manufacturing, farming, fishing, rice, and rubber trade does to feed the banking, insurance, and retail centers of Bangkok. The same Thai labor that drives Bangkok's banking, insurance, services, and tourist economy are the folks that Bangkok stuck it to in planning this "protect Bangkok at all costs" approach to flood management. What goes around comes around. Virabongsa to the rescue. Excellent contribution. So rare, here, to find such informed historical analysis. Thank you. Indeed an excellent well researched article, a rarity in this forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markaew Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 actually forming the committee now is good, while it's still high on everyone's agenda. let's hope they do it right and don't leave it at building walls around industrial estates. I am optimistic as all the elites in Thailand are affected by the floods so (one would think) they'll (have the public money) do the best they can to build proper flood defenses... Forming a committee does one thing very well...it gets the attention off the politician under fire. Obama has done this numerous times in the last couple years where it successfully distracts and delays. Obama takes nothing these committees conclude to any action. Maybe Obama is giving Yingluck some advice or maybe Yingluck is doing this through observation of Obama. Either way, nothing will happen. a lot of speeches and a lot of nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connda Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 "Govt finally sees the need for long-term planning" which will promptly be forgotten shortly after the last flood waters have dried. Thai long-term planning is probably best defined as future plans with a timeline of one day to one week in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markaew Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Bring in Dutch experts on building dikes and water mannagement. Government will have to spend a lot of money. Dutch experts can't overcome the corruption that got this problem to the size it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markaew Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 What Thailand needs is a plan on how to deal with flooding, because they aren't going to be able to stop it. Floods happen every year, but it seems that the governments and the people react like it's never happened before. Actually, it floods every time there is a substantial rain. But I agree, they are used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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