Big-Bag Compromise: Bangkok Flood Crisis

[webfact]

INUNDATION CRISIS

Big-bag compromise

The Nation

Ten-metre section of barrier reduced from 120cm to 80cm in height to appease angry residents

Authorities yesterday agreed to create a wider gap in the "big-bag" floodwall in response to a protest from Don Muang residents.

A 10-metre-wide section of the floodwall in Bangkok's Don Muang district will no longer stand as high as 120 centimetres. After a Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA) team talked to residents and met with the Flood Relief Operations Centre (FROC), it was agreed that the section would be just 80cm high.

The section had in any case sustained much damage since Sunday afternoon, with more than 100 angry residents having dismantled it, reportedly out of frustration that the flood-water level in their communities had hardly dropped, while areas south of the big-bag wall had seen a significant improvement.

Before Sunday, authorities had allowed just a minor gap of no more than 6m for people to travel between the two sides of the floodwall more conveniently.

Stretching for 15.5 kilometres across many districts, the large-sandbag structure is credited with saving the capital's inner zone from inundation.

Since the floodwall went up in northern Bangkok a week ago, the situation has improved significantly, with the water level on the Vihbhavadi-Rangsit Road in areas south of the structure having fallen rapidly.

Bangkok Governor MR Sukhumbhand Paribatra yesterday assigned deputy Bangkok city clerk Sompop Ra-ngabtuk to talk to Don Muang residents.

A BMA team as well as local leaders later had a meeting with the FROC.

According to many water experts, the removal of the floodwall would not really benefit people in Don Muang district because additional run-off from the upper part of the country would then rage into their areas, leaving them inundated.

Sukhumbhand said there had been a 23cm difference in the water level in areas north and south of the floodwall in Don Mueang district on Sunday, but this been reduced to just 15cm yesterday.

"I think very soon the flood-water level on both sides will be the same," he added.

An informed source said seven more pumps had been installed along the Bang Sue Canal as the BMA Drainage and Sewerage Department was struggling to cope with the impact from the dismantled section of the big-bag floodwall.

To date, serious flooding has led to the Bangkok governor issuing evacuation orders to the entire area of 13 districts in the capital: Don Muang, Sai Mai, Lak Si, Bang Khen, Bang Phlat, Thawi Watthana, Taling Chan, Bang Khae, Phasi Charoen, Nong Khaem, Chatuchak, Klong Sam Wa and Khan Na Yow.

He has also ordered evacuations of locals in many areas of eight other districts: Bang Khunthien, Bangkok Noi, Nong Chok, Lat Phrao, Bangkok Yai, Chom Thong, Beung Kum and Bang Bon.

In Bang Khunthien district, more than 100 angry locals gathered and blocked some traffic lanes of the Rama II Road for nearly an hour yesterday.

They demanded a pump to better facilitate the flow of water in Lahan Canal, as the overflow had resulted in their homes being inundated.

They dispersed only after BMA officials promised to install the pump for them.

At some spots, the flood-water level was more than 1m deep. Residents of many local communities had to travel around by boat because their homes are on ground much lower than Rama II Road.

Rama II is a major route for transportation between the South of the country and the capital.

-- The Nation 2011-11-15

[webfact]

Walls for inner city should have been explained

Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Sporadic protests by angry residents on the other side of flood barriers such as the "Big Bags" in Don Muang area and barriers along Rama II road reflects a systemic failure of both the Yingluck Shinawatra administrative and the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration to properly communicate with the public as to why inner Bangkok must be saved, said independent urban planner Kwansuang Atibhodhi.

"People [who took more flood water] have thus become desperate," said Kwansuang, who was a former lecturer of Urban Planning at Chulalongkorn University.

Kwansuang said although he understands the bitterness and what he called "shortsighted" measures taken by residents who saw barriers build near their homes, inner as something that is "wrong", Bangkok need to be saved due to its strategic importance.

The government, he said, should have clearly communicate the need to protect inner Bangkok to affected residents at the edge of the capital and reach some form of agreement even before the flood barriers were installed.

"You can say Bangkok is justing thinking of its survival if you are not engaged with the reality. Sure there will be more damage to people [taking more flood water] but we must look at the majority and the economy. Don't say all individual must be equal."

The urban planner said on the othe hand, confusing measures taken on Rama II Road, the main artery linking Bangkok and the South is compounding the situation. He said some agencies want the flood water to quickly flow across the road and toward the sea while some others try to block it.

"At all level we see people [and agencies] trying to solve immediate problem infront of them. And nobody seems to really know what’s going on."

Kwansuang proposed that Thailand adopted a holistic and integrate approach in handling water resources and flood concerns like the Netherlands but he also believes that the government is not capable or willing to do it.

In a related development, Prof Parichart Sthapitanond of Chulalongkorn University’s Faculty of Communication Arts told The Nation that Bangkokians not affected by flood who earns enough income may be able to propose to the government that each such households will hand it Bt5,000 or so to help those who have taken more flood water on their behalf.

-- The Nation 2011-11-15

[BlueTerrace]

.....rudderless ship.

[frodo]

The government, he said, should have clearly communicate the need to protect inner Bangkok to affected residents at the edge of the capital and reach some form of agreement even before the flood barriers were installed.

This is one area where this government has continued to fail the people. The communication since this whole ordeal has started has been abysmal to say the least. The government reminds me of a giant octopus. There is a huge nerve center surrounded by eight arms and each of those arms move independent of each other. Each of these arms gives a totally different story to he people. Which one to believe? The head basically sits there and allows the arms to do as they will.

After months of this lack of communication and people asking for answers, they still refuse to give any information. How much longer will people north of the barrier have to suffer? What is the plan to get rid of the black murky water north of the barrier? What will the government do to assist those after the water is gone? Eight arms and no answer. To be fair the arms and center do work together time to time. Much like the octopus fleeing from danger or when the government needs damage control.

What people do read and hear is the Bangkok Governor spouting about his gift to Bangkok, and Bangkok only, which is a dry New Year. People won't forget that and that resentment will, and has in some cases, reach a boiling point. While Bangkok parties and enjoys their dry New Year, will those north of Bangkok still be forced to live in disease laden water? Perception goes a long way. The government has failed in providing answers.

[erobando]

The government, he said, should have clearly communicate the need to protect inner Bangkok to affected residents at the edge of the capital and reach some form of agreement even before the flood barriers were installed.

This is one area where this government has continued to fail the people. The communication since this whole ordeal has started has been abysmal to say the least. The government reminds me of a giant octopus. There is a huge nerve center surrounded by eight arms and each of those arms move independent of each other. Each of these arms gives a totally different story to he people. Which one to believe? The head basically sits there and allows the arms to do as they will.

After months of this lack of communication and people asking for answers, they still refuse to give any information. How much longer will people north of the barrier have to suffer? What is the plan to get rid of the black murky water north of the barrier? What will the government do to assist those after the water is gone? Eight arms and no answer. To be fair the arms and center do work together time to time. Much like the octopus fleeing from danger or when the government needs damage control.

What people do read and hear is the Bangkok Governor spouting about his gift to Bangkok, and Bangkok only, which is a dry New Year. People won't forget that and that resentment will, and has in some cases, reach a boiling point. While Bangkok parties and enjoys their dry New Year, will those north of Bangkok still be forced to live in disease laden water? Perception goes a long way. The government has failed in providing answers.

Why would the Governor of Bangkok talk about areas outside of Bangkok.

Also, if Bangkok is dry, then that means the areas north of Bangkok are dry, too, because the water has already passed.

[frodo]

The government, he said, should have clearly communicate the need to protect inner Bangkok to affected residents at the edge of the capital and reach some form of agreement even before the flood barriers were installed.

This is one area where this government has continued to fail the people. The communication since this whole ordeal has started has been abysmal to say the least. The government reminds me of a giant octopus. There is a huge nerve center surrounded by eight arms and each of those arms move independent of each other. Each of these arms gives a totally different story to he people. Which one to believe? The head basically sits there and allows the arms to do as they will.

After months of this lack of communication and people asking for answers, they still refuse to give any information. How much longer will people north of the barrier have to suffer? What is the plan to get rid of the black murky water north of the barrier? What will the government do to assist those after the water is gone? Eight arms and no answer. To be fair the arms and center do work together time to time. Much like the octopus fleeing from danger or when the government needs damage control.

What people do read and hear is the Bangkok Governor spouting about his gift to Bangkok, and Bangkok only, which is a dry New Year. People won't forget that and that resentment will, and has in some cases, reach a boiling point. While Bangkok parties and enjoys their dry New Year, will those north of Bangkok still be forced to live in disease laden water? Perception goes a long way. The government has failed in providing answers.

Why would the Governor of Bangkok talk about areas outside of Bangkok.

Also, if Bangkok is dry, then that means the areas north of Bangkok are dry, too, because the water has already passed.

I'm not asking that the Governor of Bangkok talk about the other areas, but the government has that responsibility to do so, and they haven't. They've utterly failed in this. My point was people hear his pompous crowing about Bangkok being dry at their expense and nobody is being told why and for how long. Perhaps the governor doesn't have that responsibility nor care, but others do and should.

What is the purpose of the BBB? It's to stop the flow of water into Bangkok, leaving the water to build up and stagnate in the north parts. What is the plan to get rid of the water? Hell or high water, it won't go through Bangkok.

[scorecard]

The government, he said, should have clearly communicate the need to protect inner Bangkok to affected residents at the edge of the capital and reach some form of agreement even before the flood barriers were installed.

This is one area where this government has continued to fail the people. The communication since this whole ordeal has started has been abysmal to say the least. The government reminds me of a giant octopus. There is a huge nerve center surrounded by eight arms and each of those arms move independent of each other. Each of these arms gives a totally different story to he people. Which one to believe? The head basically sits there and allows the arms to do as they will.

After months of this lack of communication and people asking for answers, they still refuse to give any information. How much longer will people north of the barrier have to suffer? What is the plan to get rid of the black murky water north of the barrier? What will the government do to assist those after the water is gone? Eight arms and no answer. To be fair the arms and center do work together time to time. Much like the octopus fleeing from danger or when the government needs damage control.

What people do read and hear is the Bangkok Governor spouting about his gift to Bangkok, and Bangkok only, which is a dry New Year. People won't forget that and that resentment will, and has in some cases, reach a boiling point. While Bangkok parties and enjoys their dry New Year, will those north of Bangkok still be forced to live in disease laden water? Perception goes a long way. The government has failed in providing answers.

And none of the tentacles has any capability, let alone specific valuable knowledge, let alone specific valuable insight into this whole subject area let alone any capability to organize and plan, an on top of that they have no morals, and on top of that they have no leadership capabilities, there interests are purely and totally selfish, along with 'where's my turn at the feeding trough.'

And unfortunately these people, when they are eventually challenges by a capable and committed middle class, in big numbers, (and it will eventually happen, history will repeat itself as in many other countries) will not let go easily, they think they are entitled.

[robblok]

The government, he said, should have clearly communicate the need to protect inner Bangkok to affected residents at the edge of the capital and reach some form of agreement even before the flood barriers were installed.

This is one area where this government has continued to fail the people. The communication since this whole ordeal has started has been abysmal to say the least. The government reminds me of a giant octopus. There is a huge nerve center surrounded by eight arms and each of those arms move independent of each other. Each of these arms gives a totally different story to he people. Which one to believe? The head basically sits there and allows the arms to do as they will.

After months of this lack of communication and people asking for answers, they still refuse to give any information. How much longer will people north of the barrier have to suffer? What is the plan to get rid of the black murky water north of the barrier? What will the government do to assist those after the water is gone? Eight arms and no answer. To be fair the arms and center do work together time to time. Much like the octopus fleeing from danger or when the government needs damage control.

What people do read and hear is the Bangkok Governor spouting about his gift to Bangkok, and Bangkok only, which is a dry New Year. People won't forget that and that resentment will, and has in some cases, reach a boiling point. While Bangkok parties and enjoys their dry New Year, will those north of Bangkok still be forced to live in disease laden water? Perception goes a long way. The government has failed in providing answers.

Why would the Governor of Bangkok talk about areas outside of Bangkok.

Also, if Bangkok is dry, then that means the areas north of Bangkok are dry, too, because the water has already passed.

I'm not asking that the Governor of Bangkok talk about the other areas, but the government has that responsibility to do so, and they haven't. They've utterly failed in this. My point was people hear his pompous crowing about Bangkok being dry at their expense and nobody is being told why and for how long. Perhaps the governor doesn't have that responsibility nor care, but others do and should.

What is the purpose of the BBB? It's to stop the flow of water into Bangkok, leaving the water to build up and stagnate in the north parts. What is the plan to get rid of the water? Hell or high water, it won't go through Bangkok.

Exactly, and the people affected only get 5k. For sacrificing there should be compensation. But that is the problem Bangkok does not want to pay to be saved. It wants a free ride at the cost of others.

Then they say most of the GDP and taxes come from BKK, (then they calculate the flooded outer area's too) But how much really comes from inner BKK. If its enough a one time extra tax like property tax to help those that were sacrificed should do. Its fair too.

You cant plan where you put your house if they start erecting dams where there were no dams before. I am all for a 1 time property tax to help those directly suffering for BKK.

The dams upriver were not for the benefit of people but they were there to slow the water down before it reached BKK. Everyone suffered longer because of BKK. Now please take responsibility and pay for it. Not by normal means but by an extra tax)

[DocN]

Collecting info from several sources, let me get this straight:

a) the BBB was essential for the "survival" of Bangkok.

the mob is out demanding it to go

c) a 6 meter gap is striking fear into everyones heart...Bangkok is doomed!

d) now a 10 meter gap is opened and will have no further effect on the protection plans

If ANYONE had any doubt, that EVERYBODY in this crisis has simply NO CLUE of what they are saying or doing...here is clear evidence!

[outre99]

Exactly, and the people affected only get 5k. For sacrificing there should be compensation. But that is the problem Bangkok does not want to pay to be saved. It wants a free ride at the cost of others.

Then they say most of the GDP and taxes come from BKK, (then they calculate the flooded outer area's too) But how much really comes from inner BKK. If its enough a one time extra tax like property tax to help those that were sacrificed should do. Its fair too.

You cant plan where you put your house if they start erecting dams where there were no dams before. I am all for a 1 time property tax to help those directly suffering for BKK.

The dams upriver were not for the benefit of people but they were there to slow the water down before it reached BKK. Everyone suffered longer because of BKK. Now please take responsibility and pay for it. Not by normal means but by an extra tax)

You make it sound like the nation's capital and the economic center was directly responsible for the floods, and somehow owes compensation. Wonder where you got that strange idea from?

Bangkok governor is doing what he should, which is to defend as much of Bangkok as he possibly can under the circumstances. I wish the national government had the same focus and fortitude. Perhaps we wouldn't be in such a mess if they did.

The magnitude of the damage was caused by the rare natural phenomenon combined with the not so rare incompetence and short-sightedness of the elected government. It's hard to hold nature accountable, but the government is another story. So please direct your understandable anger at the national government that did not have, and judging by this continuous negotiation with the locals, still doesn't have a clear plan.

I also would like to direct all the red leaning / voting flood victims to look in the mirror and ask the person in there about why exactly they voted for the current government with such enthusiasm. Was it due to their incredible history of achievements, perhaps it was their clear grasp of sound and fair public policy, or maybe it was their outstanding commitment to environment and education? My guess is "none of the above". So next time there's an election i hope they think back to this painful time and vote for people based on their track record of good governance and leadership, and not the color of their shirt or the sweetness of their promises. Otherwise the rest of the country will have to impose the "stupid vote" tax to compensate the rest of us for the damage the incompetent government will cause.

There are no winners here. The whole country will be paying for this disaster for years to come. And Bangkok will be paying a lot more in taxes and higher prices for everything anyway. So please stop with this nonsense of taxing the dry areas.

[robblok]

Exactly, and the people affected only get 5k. For sacrificing there should be compensation. But that is the problem Bangkok does not want to pay to be saved. It wants a free ride at the cost of others.

Then they say most of the GDP and taxes come from BKK, (then they calculate the flooded outer area's too) But how much really comes from inner BKK. If its enough a one time extra tax like property tax to help those that were sacrificed should do. Its fair too.

You cant plan where you put your house if they start erecting dams where there were no dams before. I am all for a 1 time property tax to help those directly suffering for BKK.

The dams upriver were not for the benefit of people but they were there to slow the water down before it reached BKK. Everyone suffered longer because of BKK. Now please take responsibility and pay for it. Not by normal means but by an extra tax)

You make it sound like the nation's capital and the economic center was directly responsible for the floods, and somehow owes compensation. Wonder where you got that strange idea from?

Bangkok governor is doing what he should, which is to defend as much of Bangkok as he possibly can under the circumstances. I wish the national government had the same focus and fortitude. Perhaps we wouldn't be in such a mess if they did.

The magnitude of the damage was caused by the rare natural phenomenon combined with the not so rare incompetence and short-sightedness of the elected government. It's hard to hold nature accountable, but the government is another story. So please direct your understandable anger at the national government that did not have, and judging by this continuous negotiation with the locals, still doesn't have a clear plan.

I also would like to direct all the red leaning / voting flood victims to look in the mirror and ask the person in there about why exactly they voted for the current government with such enthusiasm. Was it due to their incredible history of achievements, perhaps it was their clear grasp of sound and fair public policy, or maybe it was their outstanding commitment to environment and education? My guess is "none of the above". So next time there's an election i hope they think back to this painful time and vote for people based on their track record of good governance and leadership, and not the color of their shirt or the sweetness of their promises. Otherwise the rest of the country will have to impose the "stupid vote" tax to compensate the rest of us for the damage the incompetent government will cause.

There are no winners here. The whole country will be paying for this disaster for years to come. And Bangkok will be paying a lot more in taxes and higher prices for everything anyway. So please stop with this nonsense of taxing the dry areas.

Yes BKK is directly responsible for the extra suffering of the people near don Mueng. By placing that big bag barrier there. I am talking about those people. Not people like me who are also flooded but have not been forced to keep the water for BKK.

I am 100% pro democrat and do think YL made a mess of it. But the fact is many have been asked to keep the water so BKK is safe. If you do that then better pay up for it.

[robblok]

Collecting info from several sources, let me get this straight:

a) the BBB was essential for the "survival" of Bangkok.

the mob is out demanding it to go

c) a 6 meter gap is striking fear into everyones heart...Bangkok is doomed!

d) now a 10 meter gap is opened and will have no further effect on the protection plans

If ANYONE had any doubt, that EVERYBODY in this crisis has simply NO CLUE of what they are saying or doing...here is clear evidence!

Yes its crazy.. now they agree on a 10m gap while before a 6 m gap would flood BKK :D

I really think the whole BBB could be destroyed and still BKK would not be affected too much.

[wxyz]

misery loves company, i'm flooded, i want you flooded too,

it is the job of the PM and BKK governor to save as much of BKK as they can, that is the job

[robblok]

misery loves company, i'm flooded, i want you flooded too,

it is the job of the PM and BKK governor to save as much of BKK as they can, that is the job

I say keep the big bags but really compensate those suffering for inner BKK. There is a direct relation between a dry BKK and those bags (according to some). But the 5k compensation is a joke.

[erobando]

I'm not asking that the Governor of Bangkok talk about the other areas, but the government has that responsibility to do so, and they haven't. They've utterly failed in this. My point was people hear his pompous crowing about Bangkok being dry at their expense and nobody is being told why and for how long. Perhaps the governor doesn't have that responsibility nor care, but others do and should.

What is the purpose of the BBB? It's to stop the flow of water into Bangkok, leaving the water to build up and stagnate in the north parts. What is the plan to get rid of the water? Hell or high water, it won't go through Bangkok.

The water doesn't just sit at the BBB. Much of it is pushed to lower levels east, some is pumped into the Chao Phraya.

Anyway, the BBB protects only a small portion of Bangkok.

The water is flowing through Bangkok now. Many parts of Bangkok are flooded already and more parts will continue to be flooded.

North of Bangkok will certainly be dry before all of Bangkok is.

[tominbkk]

Why would the Governor of Bangkok talk about areas outside of Bangkok.

Also, if Bangkok is dry, then that means the areas north of Bangkok are dry, too, because the water has already passed.

No, it could also mean that they have simply walled the water up to stay in the North for as long as they want. Like they are doing now.

[MaxYakov]

GM Link By popular demand (mainly mine), the exact coordinates (+/- a few meters) of the Big Bag Barrier Breach, BBBB (aka B⁴ or B-cubed). Don't look for the bags because they're not there. Neither is the water nor the crowds, for that matter. That made it a little difficult to identify. The posit was done primarily by using aerial footage from a News helicopter.

Since the breach is very close to the SW corner of the roughly Z-shaped BBB, this particular posit is important in determining the posits for other BBB elements.

I plan on a more detailed and interesting post of b-cubed gleaned from Thai TV. Hopefully, all this nonsense will be moot/academic very soon.

Edited November 15, 2011 by MaxYakov

[biplanebluey]

Collecting info from several sources, let me get this straight:

a) the BBB was essential for the "survival" of Bangkok.

the mob is out demanding it to go

c) a 6 meter gap is striking fear into everyones heart...Bangkok is doomed!

d) now a 10 meter gap is opened and will have no further effect on the protection plans

If ANYONE had any doubt, that EVERYBODY in this crisis has simply NO CLUE of what they are saying or doing...here is clear evidence!

I agree with you 100%----I also think that the BBBis a very handy red herring for the Govt----"look at the efforts we are making". I am convinced that the BBB is doing nothing to save anything-----tear it down ,let the water go and lets get dried out. OH NO sorry there is still a lot of money to be made on scams on the unfortunate buggers that are up to their ears in water,but Hey ---so what----BKK is dry----HOORAY !!!. To the northern people I offer you my sincere wishes for your safety and a quick return to a happy life.You have suffered enough and have been made a scapegoat by greedy and un-sympathetic politicions.Please do not forget what they have put you through and vote next time with this memory.

[TAWP]

TAN_Network: Bomb like material thrown at Sai Mai locals while sluice gate at Hok Wa Canal is being fixed, 6 injured via #INN #Thaifloodeng

[robblok]

TAN_Network: Bomb like material thrown at Sai Mai locals while sluice gate at Hok Wa Canal is being fixed, 6 injured via #INN #Thaifloodeng

Crazy hope they get them.